Winter's Orbit & Sourcery

Episode 10

Release Date: 6/9/2021

In this episode, your hosts rave about the varied and dimensional relationships in “Winter’s Orbit” by Everina Maxwell. They also continue on their Journey to the Center of the Discworld with “Sourcery,” a book they decide is actually a pretty good introduction to the Discworld series. Other segments include Words are Weird and the Pet Peeve Corner.

Thanks to Scott Buckley for use of his song “Twilight Echo”

Other music provided by Audio Library Plus: “Travel With Us” by Vendredi; “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” by Amarià.

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:05

Hello, and welcome to fiction fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Billy.

Sara 00:13

And I'm Sarah. And

Lilly 00:16

Sarah. It's our 10th episode today,

Sara 00:20

it is our 10th episode. I am honestly a little astounded that we've made it to 10 episodes.

Lilly 00:27

Well, we did. We did. So there.

Sara 00:33

Congratulations. Thank you for dragging me into this podcast.

Lilly 00:37

You're welcome. Well, other than hitting this excellent milestone, what's something great that happened this week?

Sara 00:44

Something good is I finally put up some shelves in the library. And by the library, I'm in my spare bedroom that I'm turning into a library. They're just temporary until I get nicer ones but they're up and I can finally take my books, some of my books out of boxes, and it is lovely. Except that I have now discovered or I have to acknowledge now that I'm not going to have enough shelf space for my remaining books.

Lilly 01:10

Oh, no.

Sara 01:13

Yeah. What about you?

Lilly 01:15

I got a weed whacker. I now have a yard in which to do yard work, and I'm quite enjoying it. I keep waiting for the novelty to wear off. But maybe I'm just a yard work person. That would be awfully convenient.

Sara 01:32

I mean, you know, yard work is fun. Well, depending on the yard work.

Lilly 01:36

I know. I like mowing the lawn more than you do,

Sara 01:38

I think. Yes, you do. But other yard work is fun.

Lilly 01:42

I'm quite enjoying all of it. And now I have a weed whacker to try to tackle my backyard. The grass is over my waist. It is so tall. Oh, hi. I tried to mow it and the lawnmower just stopped. Yeah, no. Yeah,

Sara 01:59

I mean, but my lawn mower doesn't like it if I let the grass get to like a foot or six inches. So I can imagine that waist high would be hard to work

Lilly 02:11

with. Yeah, so I think I'm gonna go back there with the weed whacker. And just like incrementally take it down a little bit at a time. Because I also read, if I do too much at once. I'll just kill it. And I don't want a yard full of dead grass.

Sara 02:25

I have a yard full of dead grass because I'm in California and I don't water my lawn.

Lilly 02:29

I also don't water my lawn. But

Sara 02:32

you're not in California. No.

Lilly 02:36

Well, what are you drinking? Tonight?

Sara 02:38

I am drinking a very strong gin and tonic. I put maybe a little too much gin in this. So we'll see how this podcast goes.

Lilly 02:47

Oh, this is gonna be a weird episode because I'm drinking limeade.

Sara 02:53

And have you read anything good lately? That's not podcast related.

Lilly 02:58

I have actually, I have started reading a collection of poems by Robert service, who I'm not actually sure what his occupation was. But he traveled around in the western United States and Canada quite a bit in the late 1800s. And he was apparently the bard of the Yukon, according to Wikipedia.

Sara 03:21

Interesting. Yeah, he

Lilly 03:23

wrote a bunch of really beautiful poems about Alaska. And maybe other it was pitched to me as the Pacific Northwest. I didn't realize Alaska was the Pacific Northwest. Or maybe he has other poems I haven't gotten to yet. But they're very beautiful. And I'm quite enjoying it. He also is from the late 1800s. So there's some dated aspects of his poems. But, you know, that's all right.

Sara 03:55

I mean, as long as you no one can acknowledge that it stated. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

Lilly 04:03

The descriptions of mountains are still very nice. I also read I went against my personal rule about real people thick or RPF.

Sara 04:18

What what real person sick Did you read?

Lilly 04:21

Well, my mom wrote fanfiction about you. I don't think she would use quite that same description. But she texted me the other day. And I'm just going to share this transcript I asked permission to share this. She said it was okay.

Sara 04:40

I am delighted.

Lilly 04:44

My mother said I just made up a little story about Sarah. I won't post it but you can tell her if you want. Haha. So Sarah is attracted to trash villains. She meets one and he falls in love with her His love for Sarah makes him a better person. So he is no longer a trash villain. She dumps him. Haha

Sara 05:11

I love this so much.

Lilly 05:13

So when I respond with the obvious, I think Sarah knows better than to date a trash villain, which is why she calls them trash. To which my mother responded, maybe. But in my story, somehow she transforms him. She is the all powerful manipulator of trash villains. I do too. So that was a absolutely delightful surprise.

Sara 05:41

Yes, it was. That was every bit as good as I had hoped it would be.

Lilly 05:48

I just had to share it was so good.

Sara 05:52

Yes, as you should. I'm very grateful.

Lilly 05:55

How about you? I mean, you haven't read anything that good. But

Sara 06:01

it doesn't. It doesn't quite live up to the standards that your mother has has set. But I have read a couple of things. I read the shadow of the gods by John Gwynn partially because I was just genuinely interested in reading it. And partially also because I really wanted to listen to the episode of the friends talking fantasy podcast that was going to come out on it. So I made a big push to read it before then, and I enjoyed it a lot. It's like Norse inspired fantasy with a three point of view characters, one of whom was like a mother and I really liked her Orca.

Lilly 06:36

That's hard moms are hard to pull off. Yeah. And he he does. GWEN does

Sara 06:40

a really good job at writing. Orca, who is both vulnerable, but also super, super badass. So I really liked her. But there was one issue that I had with the book that we will get into later,

Lilly 06:53

I sell a pet peeve quarter rise, and yeah,

Sara 06:57

it might get to the level of pet peeve. Your mileage may vary when you listen to it. But it bothered me. So I read that. And then I've also been reading the transcripts of the Magnus archives, which is a supernatural horror mystery podcast.

Lilly 07:15

You're not really into horror, are you?

Sara 07:17

I am not. And I'm also you will note not listening to it because it's too creepy for me. Gotcha. But I'm really enjoying the transcripts Connor Kaplan at the CME Kaplan on Twitter who will be actually be on to discuss his book, The sword in the street with us in a bonus episode later this month recommended to me and I'm enjoying it quite a lot. Although it is very creepy. I think you would like it a lot, actually.

Lilly 07:44

Yeah, you recommended it to me and I will probably listen. Because I do like you'd like me some spook.

Sara 07:53

It seems like a very Lily kind of thing.

Lilly 07:56

I like that. The lily kinds of things that you've been sending in ER, either raunchy porn, or terrifying horror.

Sara 08:06

You're welcome. It's almost like I know you. Wow.

Lilly 08:15

Now, Sarah, I'm under the impression that despite my best efforts, you still have time to read the Wheel of Time.

Sara 08:22

I am going much slower because you have done a really a plus job in taking up my time with other books.

Lilly 08:33

You just had half of them.

Sara 08:34

I have. I mean, it's a it's my fault, too. But I would rather blame you. Yes. But I did read about 400 pages in book 12 of the Wheel of Time The Gathering Storm. And granted, these notes that I made for this episode were from about two weeks ago, and I haven't really read anything since. So. Yeah, I don't know how intelligibly I'll be able to speak on what I have here. Or how in depth because I've read three books in between. But I'm enjoying book 12. This is the first book that Brandon Sanderson has written. And it did take me a while to get into it because he has a very different writing style from Robert Jordan. But it's nice because some of the characters are finally showing character growth. Like Nynaeve finally acknowledges on page I have a quote here on page 123. I don't know if it's a quote, but I did mark the page, she finally acknowledges that she has these complex feelings towards Morion like to give you a little bit of backstory, because I know that you know nothing. Nothing about Wheel of Time. This is true. Maureen is an isodose magic user. And they're kind of feared, held aside from the rest of humanity just like they're they're not normal, you know? And Nynaeve definitely has a lot of feelings about i said i and for much This series is like I hate Moray, and I just want to get the boys. Well, all of the Emmons field five, I just want to get them back to Emmons field, like, I hate Maureen for taking them away and putting them in danger. And she finally recognizes, like, if moraine hadn't come around, he'd now be dead. So saying that kind of growth was really nice. And then parent who also parent who was also really frustrated me in previous books, is finally recognizing that, like he needs to deal with his feelings, and kind of figure out who he is. So it's nice. Like I said, it's nice to see character growth.

Lilly 10:36

Yeah, totally, especially since you've invested so much time in them.

Sara 10:40

Indeed, I think I've been reading these books for six or seven months. Now, the other thing that I have to mention, because it's kind of a theme for us now, is there is spanking in this book. But it is very explicitly, like punishment, torture, not just something that you do to

Lilly 11:05

it's not a slap on the wrist.

Sara 11:07

Yes. It's it's not a healthy way of, or it's not treated as a healthy way of reprimanding your partner, which is kind of what it's because that was the horrifying

Lilly 11:19

part. Yeah,

Sara 11:21

I mean, so it's, it's nice to see it actually be treated in the way that it probably should be treated for these books.

Lilly 11:30

Oh, man, I have so many questions. Did Sanderson include spanking of his own volition? Or was that like written in the notes? There must be this many pages of it per book? Also, was this sort of change? Something that was always going to happen? Doesn't seem like it, it feels like maybe that is how this other writer is approaching?

Sara 11:54

Yeah, it's it's probably, I mean, my guess was that Sanderson thought, you know, Robert Jordan includes a lot of spanking. I'm going to include some spanking, but it's going to be very explicitly different.

Lilly 12:06

I'm gonna fix this. Yes. Good for him.

Sara 12:12

Yeah. So those are, those are my Wheel of Time. Thoughts. I'm hoping to get back to the book in between our next episode, but we'll see cuz I kind of have a lot of other reading to do. Yeah. So one of the books that we read for this episode was winter's orbit, which I forgot how I found it. I'm the one who who added it to the calendar. And I forgot how I heard about it.

Lilly 12:42

All I know is you sent me the summary. And I said I needed it in my life.

Sara 12:47

Yes. And I think it came out pretty recently. I think it was published in February of this year. And it is a I think it's billed as like space opera. But basically, it's a romance book with sci fi trappings.

Lilly 13:01

Oh, and what delicious romance it is. It was very good. Like, we're gonna get into it a little bit more. After the spoilers, but the all of the relationships romantic, or even antagonistic, just all of them are. So very well done.

Sara 13:17

Yeah, the character relationships were definitely a strength of this book.

Lilly 13:22

I do have one quibble. And this is probably just a me thing. But I would definitely call this space fantasy, not science fiction. I mean, I that's not a definition anyone else uses. But

Sara 13:37

I think I think that's a huge thing. Like I said, I would call it romance that has a sci fi setting, not sci fi. But also, I don't think that's a that's a terminology that anyone else uses.

Lilly 13:49

It is a distinction that only I care about. I do think there's a difference between science fiction and space fantasy. It's not really hard sci fi. The Hard and Soft sci fi does not jive with me. I don't know. I'm, I'm weird about sci fi. Okay, anyway.

Sara 14:06

Anyway, yeah, moving. Moving on. We had also talked in the episode on a master of gym, about how we try not to judge like, we don't believe in judging books by their first lines. But sometimes a book just doesn't really good first line. And I thought that winter's orbit had a really good first line. Well, someone has to marry the man, the emperor said,

Lilly 14:29

talk about starting you right in the middle of a conflict.

Sara 14:35

Like you want to find out what's going on next, just based on that line,

Lilly 14:39

and everything. I would say almost every sentence in this book feels like it does two or three things at the same time. It's not only describing the action, but it's also working in setting details or giving you a little hint that maybe there's something else going on here. They all did very Heavy Lifting they all all the sentences.

Sara 15:04

Yeah, it's there's a lot of really excellent world building that's just sort of woven into the text that I love, like descriptions of alien bears that are scaly and not furry, and alien birds. It was just all really cool.

Lilly 15:21

On the second page describing the gifts, official gifts that the Emperor has gotten, one of the things is a bowl of significant mosses. Which is just delightful. I want to bold of significant losses.

Sara 15:39

Yes, indeed, I do to something else that you get in the very beginning is actually the second line is that you learn that terms like Emperor titles like Emperor are not gendered, which is something that I really liked. There's also princes who are female, that really

Lilly 15:59

gave me Enchanted Forest flashbacks. You remember that series?

Sara 16:04

Oh, could I forget that series? So good. I love it.

Lilly 16:09

That's one of those books that just imprinted on me. Anyway, in that series, the King of Dragons is a female dragon. And when questioned, insists that King is a role not a gender, or it's a job, something like that. Something like that. Yeah. So that I mean, love that series. Love that concept. Love seeing it handled at in a more in depth way than the enchanted forest.

Sara 16:36

I mean, but it's never really remarked upon in Winter's orbit in the same way that it's not remarked upon in the Enchanted Forest. I don't

Lilly 16:43

remember her name, but the princess does argue that you must be a queen. And the dragons like nah.

Sara 16:50

Yeah. So So I think that Sumerian I believe, although I could be mispronouncing her name. So I think that means that it's dealt with more in the enchanted forest than it is here. Because it's actually commented on. It's more directly

Lilly 17:03

dealt with, but this book has it much more. There's more of it embedded in the novel. Yeah. Yeah. Because we are dealing with all of these different politicians at different levels. So we're seeing Emperor's and princes and generals, and

Sara 17:20

yeah, that I'm not sure that General is necessarily a gendered term, either. But what's

Lilly 17:25

not? Also not in Winter's orbit.

Sara 17:30

Yeah, but But to your point, yes, we do see a lot more levels of it throughout the book, which is nice.

Lilly 17:38

And one of the really fun things is that in this world, characters display their pronoun preferences by specific materials that they wear. So it'll be like a necklace or a bracelet, or something like that. And if it's, you know, if it's wood there, they prefer these pronouns. And if it's, I don't remember the whole system, but filled in the rest of it here. So you can tell what someone's gender pronouns are. But

Sara 18:06

the really interesting thing, and maybe I'm stealing your thunder a little bit. That's all right. The really interesting thing is that that's specific to this one world. So and there are multiple worlds in this book in The Empire in the empire. Yeah. So you still get like, these miscommunications. Where are culture clashes, you know, where we're different cultures display their gender in different ways.

Lilly 18:34

I think one of the other ones we see is displayed by how they style their hair, something about braids, something like that. Yeah. So a character would have a braid with a bobble in it. That was telling the current point of view character, two very different things. And that was just it was a very different approach and a really fun way to sort of explore that kind of situation.

Sara 19:02

Yeah, it was a nice level of detail that I really enjoyed. One thing that I did find a little difficult. Well, I don't I don't want to say it was difficult to handle. I just thought that the beginning was a little exposition heavy, not. I don't want to I don't want to put this. I thought that that the main character cam asks some leading questions. And it felt given the level of subtlety that we see throughout the rest of the book with some of the details, it just felt a little jarring to see these questions that are so clearly meant to give the reader an idea of what's going on and an idea of the setting.

Lilly 19:46

See, that didn't bother me, because KM is as you described him off the podcast himbo.

Sara 19:54

I mean, he is a himbo. But on page two, we don't necessarily know that and so it feels A little heavy handed.

Lilly 20:01

No, I get that. I am okay with it though because it's consistent. Yes, he is consistently not up to date with current events. You know, he's kind of a, he's a little airheaded and not super up to date,

Sara 20:16

I mind it a lot less as the story progresses, because you see that, as you say, like, you see that his character is consistent, you see that? That's just him. But in the beginning, when you don't know His character, you're like, Okay, you're clearly just asking this question so that the reader knows what's going on.

Lilly 20:32

Yeah, for sure. I didn't really like key up though. He was wonderful. And but with the heart of gold.

Sara 20:41

Yeah, like all of the carry, we've said this already, but all of the characters were so good.

Lilly 20:47

So a little bit, you know, of the premise of the book. I feel like we kind of got that across with the first sentence. The Empire cements its treaties with the different planets in its control, through marriages. And one of the more I think it was one of the more recent additions to the Empire FEHA had a marriage pact, that one of the partners passed away. And so the representative from FEHA needs to be remarried to someone related to the Emperor. In order to keep their treaty up to date, there's a really big, political situation, the setting of this book is mostly within this small Federation of Planets, Empire of planets, but they are connected to the rest of the universe through one. I'm gonna say Stargate, that's not what it is.

Sara 21:44

I think they call it a link, but it's basically a Stargate,

Lilly 21:47

the universe only has one off ramp to this group of planets. And in order for them to control their off ramp, they need to be in part of a sort of Galaxy wide treaty. Maybe it's bigger than that. I don't remember all of the different base levels. Yeah,

Sara 22:05

I'm not I'm not sure if it's really specified how large the larger treaty is.

Lilly 22:10

But in order to re up their treaty, they need to prove that their empire is stable. And one of the big aspects of that is all of the planets sort of playing nice and agreeing that they are part of the empire. And so FEHA, this recent planet is not super happy with the Empire. And there's some dissent. The book goes into more if there's, it's like student rallies, you know, they're not,

Sara 22:38

it's not like war levels of dissent by student protests, right.

Lilly 22:43

And then, of course, there's all sorts of articles written that make things sound scarier than they are. And that whole thing that happens anytime there's a protest. So it's up to the main character Kim, to Mary Jane in the fan representative. And I think now is when we switched to spoilers. Oh, we should say why you should read this book,

Sara 23:08

we should say why you should read this book. Because Kim

Lilly 23:11

and Jane are super cute.

Sara 23:16

If you like romance and the himbo introvert pairing, you should read this book.

Lilly 23:26

The relationship so good. It also is in a very cool setting. exploring these not alien cultures, they're all human, but very different cultures is just a really fun place to read the story that has some very comfortingly familiar elements, but is done in just a very, it's done

Sara 23:47

in a really accessible, enjoyable way.

Lilly 23:51

The upcoming content includes discussion of abusive relationships to avoid that, or spoilers for winters orbit, skip to 3855. So speaking of Jane in his previous husband was not

Sara 24:14

great. Previous husband was kind of a dick.

Lilly 24:17

Well, he was an abusive monster using escalating terms, but that slow escalation of detail was handled so beautifully. That was one of those things that we mentioned earlier that the details are really worked into the novel very subtly. This was one of those. The first hints of it you get are pretty early on, like page 60, page 70 out of a

Sara 24:46

407 I think, no 430? Well, the acknowledgments as on page 430 400 ish page book 428.

Lilly 24:56

There we go. That's the number so you sort of get this inkling in the back of your head that some something wasn't quite right there. And then it just sort of keep getting bread crumbs. And then it is does eventually come out that yes, it was the worst case scenario, it was everything you had feared.

Sara 25:11

It's it's really good too, because km, like from the outside looking in, which is key on this perspective, like he thinks that Jaden and his former husband, Tom, were just like the golden couple, you know, and they were super happy. So you have his point of view thinking, Oh, Jaden is must be so devastated by this loss. And you have the slow unwinding of this thread that No, actually, Jaden was horribly mistreated. And Tom was an asshole, an abusive asshole. And it's done very, very well.

Lilly 25:47

It wasn't the straw man of the, you know, the black eye abuse. Yeah, there was also, you know, financial control and social isolation. And there are a lot

Sara 25:59

of layers to it that you uncover. Yeah.

Lilly 26:02

So it feels dimensional. Yeah,

Sara 26:05

it feels very dimensional. I think that's a great way to put it. Switching a little bit to Kim. One of the things that I really liked about his character was just his focus on consent, which I know that that sounds kind of like an oxymoron, given that he's been thrust into this, like told that he's marrying Jane and Jane and doesn't really have a choice either. But he is very concerned at at all stages throughout the book, he's really concerned with making sure that Jalen is consenting to having a relationship with Him, and that he's not like, coercing him in any sort of way. And I just, I really appreciated seeing that. So like blatantly said, because I feel like a lot of times, consent is just kind of hand waved. So that felt refreshing to me. Absolutely.

Lilly 26:53

And he even takes it to the next level of Janan saying yes, but he's clearly not into it. At one point early on in the story. I think it's their wedding night, maybe Yeah, I

Sara 27:04

think it's their wedding night.

Lilly 27:06

And key, I was just like, Well, no, no, clearly not having fun. Why would I keep going,

Sara 27:11

which also leads to a lot of misunderstanding because Janet and Cam have two very different communication methods, and two very different personalities. So when they start to realize that they like each other, you know, they're talking at cross cross purposes. That is

Lilly 27:26

one of my favorite types of tension in a relationship where two characters like each other, but assume the other one doesn't. And so they just misinterpret every single. It's, yeah, it's really fun. Yeah,

Sara 27:44

I really like it. Because it's not just like ham fisted miscommunication, though it feels really natural to these characters, and who they are as people to be feeling the way they do and miscommunicating the way they do.

Lilly 27:56

It cannot be said enough, how well done, the relationships are in this novel. They

Sara 28:02

really, I mean, it. Like the rest of the rest of the novel is good. The plot is good. The world building is good, but it's the relationships for me the relationships between characters that make this novel worth reading and rereading.

Lilly 28:16

I think it just overshadows everything else, because it's so good. Possibly. It's not that the other things aren't good. It is just so incredible. And we've been focusing a lot on the romantic relationship between Kim and Jane. And because that is, we would argue the main plot.

Sara 28:34

I mean, it's a romance novel, there are other trappings. But it's basically the point is the relationship.

Lilly 28:40

But the other interpersonal relationships are also done very well. One of the other characters is Belle, who is Kim's personal assistant, and her sort of professional relationship with Kim, and then Jaden, and how that grows into more of a friendship throughout the book is I can't describe it, you just got to read the book.

Sara 29:11

I love Belle. And I also love how we get to see more of her character and how she kind of grows in importance and capability from just the PA. You know, by the end of the book, you find out a lot more about her backstory, not enough about her backstory, like I want a book just about Belle, because she's wonderful, but you do learn a lot more about her.

Lilly 29:33

And then you also have one of the characters who ends up being one of the antagonists in the book.

Sara 29:40

I wrote literally literally in my notes I wrote, I like Aaron, page 160 and 100 117 and then about 100 pages later. I bet he's going to turn out evil and then another 100 pages later, just Yup. Literally my notes

Lilly 29:58

but that's because Maxwell was dropping these character cues that we as readers are able to pick up and have that growing realization inside of, oh, something's not quite right here. Little the fact that not only are we able to pick up on it before the grand reveal, but it's also a switch from our original feelings towards him. Our relationships with the characters also grow and change in a very, very fun way. Yeah, that's very true. Oh, one of the other things that was sort of the slow escalation of detail throughout the novel was the Tao field, which is some kind of mind manipulation, war crime device. It's first mentioned offhand as an archaic thing that shows up in old movies. Yeah. And

Sara 30:56

like it's a relic that they're handing over to the you know, the larger auditor, yeah, the auditor as part of their treaty with this larger Galactic Federation.

Lilly 31:09

But then slowly, over time, it keeps coming back up. And one of my notes was Chekhov's townfield. Because you can't mention this crazy, gaslighting mind control device and not have it get used. So of course, turns out it was actually still operational the whole time. That sure does pay off.

Sara 31:32

Yeah, I think Maxwell is really good at dropping hints at weaving in a, you know, these these aspects that pay off at the end of the book.

Lilly 31:42

Okay. But I did have one big problem with this book.

Sara 31:47

What was your problem with this book,

Lilly 31:49

The incongruence it between how important this treaty is, and therefore how important they as public support of the Empire is, and then how dismissive everyone is of Kim and Jane in their marriage is literally necessary for this entire empire to not get smushed in war by the bigger parties of the Galactic something or other. But every time they try to do something that will make FEHA more supportive of the empire, they just get scoffed at and thrown out of rooms and what like, Who do you think you are? And that just doesn't make any sense. The Emperor is not an idiot. Like, Why was she so? Dumb? I don't get it.

Sara 32:37

Yeah, I mean, I feel like probably someone should have noticed that. For example, Jaden hasn't talked to his family in two years. Like, that's not great for a diplomat, like, what's up with that?

Lilly 32:51

Yeah. Or, hey, if the news articles are really sensational, and say, Everything's terrible, then the auditor might think that failure is not part like in support of the treaty, and we won't get ratified. Maybe we should do something to make sale like us more. Nah, that doesn't come up at all. It did

Sara 33:13

feel a little bit like this was a plot convenience.

Lilly 33:19

I legitimately thought the emperor was one of the bad guys. So this is the spoiler section. So I can say there is a plot to get FEHA to disapprove of the treaty so that the Empire can conquer them with war, and then use all of these ancient relics to go to war with the rest of the galaxy. You know that your basic warmongering nonsense, I truly thought that the emperor was on board with that because why else would she make such terrible decisions? Yeah, clearly she sabotaging it right. There's no other explanation. No. So that was a little disappointing. Just given how well done the rest of it is.

Sara 34:03

Yeah, I mean, I really like I like I said, I enjoyed the plot, but I did think that it was more of a vehicle for the romance than anything else.

Lilly 34:14

Like the heist with Bella at the end to save Janan was great. Yeah, that was

Sara 34:19

great. But it also felt like a vehicle for the romance to progress the relationship.

Lilly 34:23

Maybe I the thing with the Emperor only bothered me while it was happening. It's not like it ruined the rest of the book for me. But anytime the Emperor showed up or other politicians were just completely belittling of km. It was like, Who are you?

Sara 34:46

One thing I do want to mention is that this book started life as an original story on Archive of Our Own which is an internet repository for fanfiction and fiction in general. And it does feel like something you'd read, you'd find on a oh three. And I mean that not in a bad way, just that it felt very familiar, where, you know, some of the beats of the story even if you don't know the characters or the setting, like it has some of the good old standby tropes of fake dating and stuck in the mountains with only one bed and you know, all of those high points

Lilly 35:23

naked, cuddling to survive hypothermia. Exactly. But she also teased us with that too, right at the beginning, after Kim and Jane and get married, she dangles but there was only one bed over our heads. And you think, oh, what's gonna happen? But then Kim being a very respectful, wonderful person just goes, well, yeah, no, fuck that. I'll sleep on the couch, yanking the attention away from us. But, you know, being a very good spouse. Yes, if you didn't intend to be a spouse that morning.

Sara 36:06

I'm so wonderful. I mean, I really like both Kim and Jane and a lot. They're great.

Lilly 36:10

Well, and their relationship just is so it gives it gives you the warm and fuzzies it was

Sara 36:16

fun to read. It was a lot of fun to read.

Lilly 36:19

As characters, they have really complementary strengths. And once they figure that out, and you know, Kim can do you know, the social schmoozing and get them through hurdles, just by being extremely friendly, manipulative in that way.

Sara 36:36

And then not intentionally manipulative. He's just an extrovert.

Lilly 36:39

Well, I mean, he definitely uses it on purpose in when they have to infiltrate the army. The military.

Sara 36:46

Okay, that that? Yes. That is manipulative. You're right. Or intentional

Lilly 36:51

intelligence agency.

Sara 36:53

Yeah. But I think a lot of times he's just being an extrovert, right? This is a this is just his natural state of being, which is anathema to me as an introvert.

Lilly 37:04

Well, I'm jaded to, right. That's not his, that's not his strength. It's like witchcraft to him. He's a brilliant engineer. And so once they sort of hit their stride as partners, not not necessarily romantic because they figure this out. It from a practical perspective first, it just feels really good. You're like, yes, they're doing it. And then, also sort of along that line, a lot of Kim's character growth and conflict in the story is external. Whereas Jason's story and character growth is almost entirely internal, which I feel like sort of reflects their characters as a whole really, really nicely. Yeah, it's a very good book.

Sara 37:51

It was a very good book. I'm glad we read it. I'm glad I suggested that me too. I wonder if she intends to have it be part of a series. I'm kind of

Lilly 38:00

torn out more stories in this world I would love. But I feel like Kim and Jane in story has been told, I'm always worried with sequels if it's about the same couple that they're going to

Sara 38:13

they're going to have conflict for conflict sake. Yeah.

Lilly 38:17

Like for some contrived reason. They don't think the other one likes them again, even though that was the beginning of the last book. Congrats. You're gonna read the same thing over again.

Sara 38:28

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I kind of would like it to stay as a standalone. Also, I haven't read the quotes on the back of the book before. But this last one by Lena rather, I don't know who that is. I don't know Sisters of a vast black either. But the slow burn sad space boys in love romance of your dreams. Which if that doesn't just sum up this book.

Lilly 38:51

Oh, and that is perfectly this book. Absolutely. I didn't put this down. But speaking of quotes on the back of the book, there's a terrible one on the back of sorcery. Oh, think JRR Tolkien with a sharper, more satiric edge.

Sara 39:13

This has nothing in common

Lilly 39:15

with Lord of the Rings. Oh, is it because they're both British?

Sara 39:19

I mean, I think it's because Tolkien was really the only like, fantasy author that people knew back in the day.

Lilly 39:27

Douglas Adams, I think is a much better comparison. For Terry Pratchett.

Sara 39:32

Douglas Adams is a much better comparison.

Lilly 39:35

Also, I think that's how we're starting this one. I run out of goofy cinematic narrator voice jokes. I think it's getting old.

Sara 39:46

I mean, it's also hard because we're doing this back to back with another journey to the center of the Discworld episode.

Lilly 39:53

Regardless though, that is where we are once again.

Sara 39:59

It is indeed

Lilly 40:00

If anyone ever tries to compare Pratchett to Tolkien just dismiss all of their opinions about everything line in the sand,

Sara 40:08

unless it's saying they're both British fantasy authors, okay? They're similar in that respect.

Lilly 40:15

That's about it. I would, if I was describing Pratchett to someone, I would not say think Tolkien.

Sara 40:22

No, Tolkien would not be a comparison. So Terry Pratchett, love them both. Two very different like styles of writing.

Lilly 40:32

Extremely.

Sara 40:35

If you went into Tolkien expecting Pratchett, you would be very disappointed. And if you went into Pratchett expecting Tolkien, you would be very disappointed.

Lilly 40:44

I can read Oh, Terry Pratchett novel in an afternoon. It takes days to get through chapters of like, I love Lord of the Rings, but that is a slow read.

Sara 40:54

Yeah, it's very dense. Anyway, moving. Moving on to talk about sorcery, which is our next stop in our journey to the center of the Discworld. I had forgotten how much I liked this book. I think partially because I always conflate it with equal rights. I think they are the same book. And they are not the same book at all. But I really liked this book.

Lilly 41:18

I'm looking up to see if we said people should start with it.

Sara 41:22

We did not say people should start with it. But I actually think that it is not a bad place to start. We did not give a read Swint book that people should start with.

Lilly 41:31

I think if people want a wizard book, which I guess is similar, same as rinse wind, he is a wizard after all. I mean,

Sara 41:38

he is basically the main wizard that all of the wizard Discworld books follow. But yeah, I think if you're in the mood for a wizard story, a fun wizard story. This is actually a pretty decent place to start.

Lilly 41:51

And academia politics. Yes, because the wizard University always feels like it's making comments on stuffy old school academic types. Yes, very definitely. It does have a lot in common with equal rights, too.

Sara 42:07

I think the reason why I get the two confused is literally because sorcery deals with the eighth son of an eighth son, and equal rights deals with an ace daughter. And those those two things are just similar enough that I think they're the same book.

Lilly 42:24

Well, small correction. sorcery is the eighth son of an eighth son of an eighth son. Okay? Because wizards aren't supposed to have relations, as is danced around in earlier books, but pretty explicitly harped on in this one. I think Prince wind, like has never even seen pornography before. Pretty sheltered. But this book with a wizard,

Sara 42:53

there is a man and he had eight sons. But the eighth son. Okay, yeah, I take it back. Sorry. That's okay. Yeah.

Lilly 43:03

The eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard. Yeah. And the the wizard had eight sons, which is a big no, no. Get a source server. fuck shit up. That's the book. Yeah.

Sara 43:15

I mean, a sorcerer has more power in their pinky finger than a wizard does. His entire body basically. And Fox Shut up.

Lilly 43:23

Except also he's like, 10. Coin is the name of the sorcerer. We don't actually see him very much. And when we do see him, he is being pretty much manipulated by his father's spirit in the wizard staff.

Sara 43:42

Yeah, the book is less about coin and more about how coin affects the world.

Lilly 43:48

Yeah, I feel bad for him though. He's just a kid.

Sara 43:51

Yeah, I realized that I was nodding it but listeners can see.

Lilly 43:57

Anytime Sarah is quiet, assume she is visually agreeing with me.

Sara 44:05

Something that I think that Pratchett does very well in this book is his subtle references to pop culture. Like he has some references to Narnia and Aladdin. And they're really seamless. Like, if you don't know that the references, then you just take it as part of the narration. But if you recognize the reference, and obviously you're like, Oh, I'm part of the crowd. He just doesn't very well.

Lilly 44:30

One of those special few who have seen the movie Aladdin,

Sara 44:36

or read, you know, the Chronicles of Narnia. I'm not saying that it's a small crowd.

Lilly 44:42

It was just a funny phrase. Well, this book is not about death. But he shows up and is fantastic as always.

Sara 44:50

Yes, he is. But he's, he's on the very first scene. And he's just really, really good.

Lilly 44:57

At one point, though. The wizard who begat the sorcerer asks, what is there in this world that makes living worthwhile? And what does death say Sara?

Sara 45:11

Death thought about it. Cats, he said eventually, cats are nice.

Lilly 45:19

How does death just sum up my entire existence in one sentence?

Sara 45:25

I really love how death has such a thing for cats.

Lilly 45:28

Well, they're also one of the only animals that can see him right cat. So yeah, yes, when witches,

Sara 45:35

cats and magical beings are magic users,

Lilly 45:39

IPSA lore, this wizard is also a pretty awful dude. And Pratchett gets that across very efficiently.

Sara 45:48

Yeah, death asks, Ypsilon how he guided the steps of his other sons, you know, because he has seven other sons, and Ypsilon response, I drove them out, they dared to argue with me, they would not listen to what I could teach them. But this one will. And just with that one sentence, you know exactly what kind of person IPS lawyer the red is, like,

Lilly 46:10

and it sure ain't a nice one. It is

Sara 46:12

not a nice one. No. But Pratchett conveys that. So he's his use of language is very streamlined. Like he does a lot in very little.

Lilly 46:23

Absolutely. I mentioned the academia commentary earlier. But he also has some other very poignant moments in this book.

Sara 46:35

I mean, as as with any practice book, you get a lot of really good social commentary. You know, he has a line about custom for custom sake, the origins of a particular custom, are lost in the depths of time. And he says, which was as good a reason as any for retaining the custom, which so perfectly points out just the silliness, of custom for custom sake, he also has a really good line about how people don't necessarily treat children as like humans. You know, people don't quite believe that children are fully human and think that the operation of normal good manners doesn't apply to them, which I think is also very accurate. Yeah, you

Lilly 47:16

see it? I mean, yes, all the time. Yeah. That reminds me of another quote, not from Pratchett and only tangentially related, but it makes me giggle every time so I'm going to share it. Are children smaller than adults? Or are they just farther away?

Sara 47:38

I mean, that does feel like a very Terry

Lilly 47:39

Pratchett question. I have no recollection of where this came from. All I know is it was not something I thought of. I have no idea. Well, we touched on this a little bit, but why should you read this book or the Discworld version? When should you read this book?

Sara 48:00

So you should read this book if you want wizard shenanigans funny you know wizard fighting wizard shenanigans. And

Lilly 48:10

and if you haven't read Discworld before, this would be a decent place to start. If that sounds appealing to you.

Sara 48:16

Yeah. It I think this is the first book where we can say yes, you can read this first.

Lilly 48:21

We finally got to avoid spoilers for sorcery. Skip to 101 53. Now, the last Terry Pratchett book we read was mort, in which one of the only female characters was Isabel and maybe I just have an Isabel hangover. But God damn did I love Kognito in this book.

Sara 48:53

Nina is quite refreshing compared to Isabel, even though I think this book actually has less female characters in it because I think co Nina is the only named woman who appears.

Lilly 49:05

I was gonna say there's an entire harem, but I don't think that counts.

Sara 49:09

They are not named. And I don't think they have any line. But yeah, Konya. Anna is wonderful. She is the daughter of Conan the Barbarian. And one of you know, his virgin sacrifice was that he rescued or priestesses or something, and she wants to be a hairdresser. But every time she gets near sharp edges, she just goes full barbarian on things. She can't help it.

Lilly 49:36

But so she has that really interesting conflict. She wants to be a hairdresser, but her instinct is to fight. And so just right away from her first introduction, she's already more interesting than any of the other adult. No, we love the witches. I take that back. And I mean, she is kind of a Mary Sue. She's stunningly gorgeous. Send the best fighter in the world and et cetera, et cetera. But I don't even care, man. I mean, I don't

Sara 50:07

think that she's described as I think it's just that Rincewind has the hots for her. And so because we're seeing Emperor Folsom does too, though Yeah, but the Emperor falls for any woman who can tell him a story like the emperor. The emperor says wonderful things about the innkeeper in Moorpark or the the bartender at Encore Park. Like I don't think the emperor is judging based on conventional standards of

Lilly 50:32

beauty. Okay, fair enough. Maybe that went over my head, then. She does also get a fun role reversal, though, or takes place in a fun damsel in distress role reversal, because there's also Nigel, who is a grocer's son who decided he does want to be a barbarian. He is not particularly good at it. But the boy has spirit.

Sara 50:59

He sent away for a handbook, you know, a seven step guide to becoming a barbarian. And he's dutifully read through it and followed it.

Lilly 51:09

Ostensibly written by Conan the Barbarian. But rent swim says that he's not rich, so maybe not. So Nigel is constantly rushing in to try to save co Nina, who is the one who ends up saving Nigel many times. Yeah,

Sara 51:28

it is, as you say, a very nice role reversal. And it's nice to see, after especially after more, it's nice to see a female character with so much agency

Lilly 51:37

and just desires.

Sara 51:39

personality, she feels like a person. She does,

Lilly 51:43

she's great. And that sort of brings us into one of the things that I think this book revolves around, which is the concept of identity. You know, we have rinse wind, who is a wizard, even if he never does magic, co Nina is a hairdresser. Nigel is a barbarian. And the king they meet at some point is a poet. And of course, coin is a kid, he's kind of forced to be a sorcerer. And there is just this recurring concept of you create your own identity. Other people don't get to do that for you.

Sara 52:20

There's a really good quote at the end of the book, where it rings when I was talking to coin, basically about that very concept. And he says, Ron Swan says, it's vital to remember who you really are, it's very important. It isn't a good idea to rely on other people or things to do it for you. You see, they always get it wrong.

Lilly 52:39

They always do. Yeah, it would not be Discworld without some of our favorite recurring characters. We already mentioned death, because his stuff wasn't really a spoiler, although the rest of the writers of the apocalypse showed up in this book, which we haven't seen them since the color of magic, I think, or slash the light. Fantastic. They're the same book. And once again, they just drink and don't go anywhere the whole time.

Sara 53:11

I love how just kind of bumbling ly incompetent, they end up being not because they're actually bad at their jobs. But just because they don't want to go and do their jobs.

Lilly 53:19

I don't blame them.

Sara 53:22

I wouldn't want to bring about the end of the world either.

Lilly 53:24

But we also see the librarian, who is the Librarian of the unseen University, who very early on gets turned into an orangutan

Sara 53:34

and I remember it's page eight of light, fantastic. Because I got

Lilly 53:38

that wrong. That's gonna be burned into your head forever, isn't it, it is going to be burned into my head forever. But he has a great role in this book. Because he's protecting the library from the sorcerer, we actually get to see him doing things and not just be a set dressing.

Sara 53:54

Yeah, we see a lot of him very proactively caring for the books, and we get even even though he only says UHC, we do get a much better sense of his character and personality.

Lilly 54:06

We also see a reappearance of the luggage.

Sara 54:11

Yes, I felt really bad for the luggage. The luggage goes through kind of a lot, because the luggage is really in many respects a reflection of rinse wind and rinse winds feelings. And so Rincewind has a crush on kunena. Therefore the luggage has a crush on Codina and Kalinina. Very brutally, I don't want to say turns it down because that implies some sort of, like chance between the two. But she treats

Lilly 54:37

it like furniture luggage. Yeah, yeah.

Sara 54:40

And so you really you see, it's hard to show an I don't want to call it inanimate because it moves but you know, it's hard to show.

Lilly 54:51

It doesn't have a face.

Sara 54:52

It doesn't have well it hasn't mouse. That's true. I mean, it's it's hard to show what is basic We have a piece of luggage, like the emotions of it. But Pratchett really shows the emotions of the luggage

Lilly 55:05

and it needs a hug. That's emotion, it needs a hug. And then we have a brief visit with vetinari. The more pork, I always

Sara 55:16

forget that, like he gets named so early on in the series, because the vetinari that we see in sorcery is not really as cool as he is in later books. Well, he doesn't get to do very much, he gets turned into a lizard. And that's about it

Lilly 55:33

almost immediately, right? So when coin shows up, and decides that wizards ought to be in charge of everything, he summons vetinari to the unseen University, who is understandably ruffled by this. And when that Nari questions him coin just turns them into a lizard. And then he's just a lizard hanging out with the library and for the rest of the book.

Sara 55:57

It's not even coin, who turns him into a lizard. It's one of the other wizards like one of the other high up wizards.

Lilly 56:03

Okay, that's right, because Coins presents supercharges everyone's magic. Yeah. But he doesn't actually do everything himself. He just gives the wizards airs above their station. Yeah,

Sara 56:18

I think within the first four pages of vetinari being introduced, he's been turned into a lizard. And you can't

Lilly 56:25

blame him for not accomplishing very much.

Sara 56:28

No, you can't. But I just I have a real soft spot in my heart for vetinari Mostly because he shows up as a young assassin and training and Nightwatch. And on the basis of those like three scenes, I had a huge crush on him.

Lilly 56:44

Speaking of IPs, the lore, the wizard who begat the source server, and is an all around terrible father, as we could tell from his dialogue at the beginning that you mentioned,

Sara 56:58

unlikely to win any Father of the Year awards. Certainly not

Lilly 57:01

one given out by us. Nope. It's also ultimately his downfall. Because He's so cruel to coin once rinse wind. I think Vincent is the first person who's actually sweet to coin

Sara 57:18

coin. So something along those lines? Yeah. Not for

Lilly 57:21

no reason, because he's trying to save the world. But not for selfish reasons. Because the wizards are all nice to him, but they're just trying to control him.

Sara 57:30

Yeah, that's, they're not really nice. So much is self serving.

Lilly 57:34

Right. But it's hard to say that wind is not also being self serving, because he just wants to survive. But that's clearly different. Right? His motives are clearly different. Yeah. It's not personal game. Yeah. And so all it takes is someone being nice for coin to realize that he doesn't want to listen to his father possessing this staff doing all of these terrible things. Because trying to rule through fear is just something something doesn't work out

Sara 58:04

something. I mean, coins, initial hesitation to or coin coins initial thought about Rincewind is not that he has been nice to him. That comes later. It's that he looks harmless, like an angry rabbit. And so and so quaint is like, Well, why do I have to do everything you tell me like I don't want to? I don't want to hurt this person. It's not going to help anything.

Lilly 58:32

Yeah, what's the point? He's not a threat? Yeah.

Sara 58:35

And then later, he says that Rincewind has been, you know, as has really been the first person to be nice to him.

Lilly 58:42

Can I just read a book that is read Swindon, his adopted son coin, getting into high jinks with the luggage?

Sara 58:52

I mean, there's probably fanfiction out there.

Lilly 59:00

As much as I love fanfiction, I do not always trust it.

Sara 59:03

It's not impossible, but it's hard to find Terry Pratchett, level of talent and fanfiction. There you go. It's out there. You just have to sift through things to very true, but I guess you could you could say that about published work, too. I mean, yeah,

Lilly 59:18

not all published books are at the level of dairy production. Yeah, or original work. Okay. There was one thing about this book that bugged me much, much more than it bugged you.

Sara 59:29

Yeah, I will. I will let you explain what it was. But I'll say in advance that it didn't really bother me. Throughout the book,

Lilly 59:37

Rincewind will occasionally have a full blown conversation with his conscience. And it was just it did nothing for me. I guess it was trying to explain why even though he professes to want to avoid danger, ends up running back into danger to help people. But that's not necessary. We have an entire, like two page long conversation of him with himself. It. It wasn't that funny. It didn't really serve any purpose. It was just kind of.

Sara 1:00:11

I didn't mind it. I mean, I felt like it did expand upon his motivations for going back into danger and staying with Codina. And you know, all of that. I didn't mind it, I can see why you would find it frustrating. But for me personally, it was fine.

Lilly 1:00:26

It was yeah, it was just unnecessary. Like, yes. Okay, his motivation did need to be explained, because that does go directly against what he usually tries to do. Anytime he's altruistic or brave in any way,

Sara 1:00:40

he needs to be justified. But he couldn't have

Lilly 1:00:44

come up. He being Pratchett couldn't have come up with a better way to show that to us. I don't know.

Sara 1:00:49

I think I think that Pratchett is experimenting to find out what works, you know, this is still only book five. Like, he's, he's trying it out. Does this work? Maybe he decides that it doesn't, and he doesn't do it. I actually can't remember how often this particular style appears in later books, but I have no memory of it, if it if it appears at all. But like, I mean, I'll I don't mind if she tries it out. Well,

Lilly 1:01:17

hopefully it doesn't come back. We'll see. You have this other quote pulled out that I think would be a really lovely place to end this section on. Yeah,

Sara 1:01:27

there's a quote that I like, it doesn't really have any deep meaning. But Nigel Codina and creosote, who is the poet and King or saref of the city says I could do with a drink. I suppose we couldn't stop somewhere where I could buy an in what with said Nigel, you're poor remember? Poor I don't mind set the saref It's sobriety that is giving me difficulties lately I have a words are weird.

Lilly 1:02:00

What is your weird word Sarah?

Sara 1:02:02

Maybe it's it's less of a words are weird and more of an English is weird. But I've discovered recently that I've been mispronouncing the name of the author of The Grecia books, but l e i g h should be pronounced like slay and not Lee and I will die on this hill. Only of course, I'm not going to intentionally like mispronounced her name. Because I'm not nasil but leave Leigh Bardugo every time I read li le IG H I think it should be slay like SLE e IG? H?

Lilly 1:02:38

Well, you think it should be les? You don't actually think?

Sara 1:02:41

I think I think it's I think I should ride with Les. I think it should

Lilly 1:02:44

be les English is indeed a very weird language.

Sara 1:02:49

English is a weird language. Leigh Bardugo. If you're listening, I'm sorry that I've been pronouncing your name wrong for so long.

Lilly 1:03:04

Now, Sara, you teased us at the beginning with a pet peeve, you may have to submit to the pet peeve corner.

Sara 1:03:11

As I mentioned, when I brought up reading shadow of the gods, I really liked it. I thought it was a fantastic book. I loved the characters. You know, the world building was great. But part of that included the use of the word thought cage to refer to brain. And I would be fine. If that was just in the dialogue. Like if that's the terminology that characters in this world use for the word brain. I'm fine with that. But it was used in the in the narration too. And I just It threw me out of the book every time I read that. I kind of could not stand it.

Lilly 1:03:51

Oh, no. Yeah, it. Yeah, that's a little bit too much.

Sara 1:03:57

It was just excessive like there was. That's the sort of thing that if you use sparingly, it's a really good detail that adds a lot to the world. But if you just overuse it, it loses all of its value, and it sticks out like a sore thumb every time it comes up and it sticks out like a sore thumb every time it comes up. And you know, it kind of came up a lot because characters think about things and they refer to thinking and they refer to their brands. And it just it was it was a lot. I didn't like it, but your mileage may vary. I know people you know, I had a conversation with someone who didn't mind it at all. So personal preference, but

Lilly 1:04:36

Well, I'm glad you were still able to enjoy the book. Despite that. I did

Sara 1:04:40

still like the book but and I will read this, you know the sequel when it comes out. But I will also probably send you a number of texts, saying I hate the use of thought cage when I read it.

Lilly 1:04:53

I look forward to it.

Sara 1:04:58

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of fiction vans

Lilly 1:05:03

comm disagree with us. We're on Twitter and Instagram at fiction fans pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com If you

Sara 1:05:13

enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Apple podcasts and follow us wherever your podcast live.

Lilly 1:05:20

Thanks so much for listening and may your villains always be defeated by AI