The Practice, the Horizon, and the Chain by Sofia Samatar
- Fiction Fans
- 2 days ago
- 28 min read
Episode 216
Release Date: Nov 26, 2025
Your hosts discuss The Practice, the Horizon, and the Chain by Sofia Samatar, chosen for this episode by their supporters on Patreon. They talk about space magic in SciFi, unjust systems, and degrees of betrayal.
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:03
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,
Sara: 0:09
And I am Sarah, and today we will be talking about the practice of the horizon and the chain by Sophia Samar.
Lilly: 0:16
but before we get into that, we have our quick five minute introduction. Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?
Sara: 0:23
I got rid of a bunch of nail polish, still usable, like not dried up, still usable but nail polish through my local buy nothing group. So I'm very pleased.
Lilly: 0:37
nice. I downloaded that app but haven't actually used it yet.
Sara: 0:41
It is not an app that I use or that mine uses. They actually do run it on Facebook. Okay.
Lilly: 0:47
Oh, see, I refuse to use Facebook, so I had to go the app, but
Sara: 0:51
Yeah.
Lilly: 0:52
neither option is like ideal.
Sara: 0:54
Yeah.
Lilly: 0:55
My good thing is that I absolutely killed it at a meeting for work recently. I'm not gonna go too deep into the nitty gritty, but it was a a weird ambiguous meeting that a client scheduled that we were like, okay, this could go in a lot of different directions. And then they ended up asking a lot of really easy questions that I slam dunked, and I just feel really good about that.
Sara: 1:20
Nice. That is a good feeling.
Lilly: 1:22
Yeah, it was great. What are you drinking this evening?
Sara: 1:26
So the drink that one should have for this book is tap water, and I do have a glass of tap water here with me but also the tiny terrors have been very naughty today. And so I'm drinking a glass of wine.
Lilly: 1:42
I do feel like we should specify that the tiny terrors are pugs,
Sara: 1:46
Yes,
Lilly: 1:47
just for context.
Sara: 1:48
the tiny terrors, my two young pug puppies have been very naughty.
Lilly: 1:55
Well, I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope the wine helps. I am absolutely drinking tap water. It was going to be my beverage anyway, but luckily it's really perfect for this book. There's a lot of conversation around how the water tastes different in, in two different places. There's a lot of like, a class. Distinction in this book, if you can even call it that. It's probably beyond that and there's another word for it, but as someone sort of is elevated in society, marginally elevated, how different the water tastes and feeling nostalgic for, even though it technically lower quality, the taste for the water from his home. So it felt appropriate.
Sara: 2:37
Yes.
Lilly: 2:38
And I have, well, I read a really bad fan fiction that was like the definition of Insta Love, and I was very unimpressed.
Sara: 2:47
Oh no,
Lilly: 2:48
all of the reading I've done recently.
Sara: 2:50
I let's see, since our last recording, I have not done any solstice reading, even though I should be doing solstice reading.
Lilly: 3:00
Oh yeah. Should I have admitted that I read fan fiction instead of solstice?
Sara: 3:03
No, because we're, we're supposed, we have a deadline. We gotta get on this.
Lilly: 3:08
the deadline. I just am not allowed to complain about frantically finishing.
Sara: 3:14
Okay. But we do, we do have a deadline. We have to meet but I have not done any reading this week
Lilly: 3:20
except for the.
Sara: 3:22
except for the practice, the horizon and the chain. Yes.
Lilly: 3:26
That was the first one. I wanted to say progress, and I was like, I know that's not right.
Sara: 3:30
I, I remember I always remember the three different like items in the title, but I can never be sure that I'm getting it correct. I wanna mix them up. That's my problem with it.
Lilly: 3:44
So this is a very science fiction setting book. It takes place on a society that lives on a fleet of spaceships. They are supported by mining theoretically, although how exactly that works is unclear.
Sara: 4:02
Some of the logistics are a little vague, but that's fine. It, it doesn't need to be clear.
Lilly: 4:08
No, and the the feel. For this book, especially in the prose and just the general storytelling was very folkloric, which it fits with the story of we start with people at the lowest level of society and sort of watching them build mythology in folklore. And so it felt very appropriate in that way.
Sara: 4:30
Yeah, There are two very distinct tiers of society. There are more than just two, but there are two very distinct tiers of society. There's the people who live in the hold, which are the. Lowest of, of the low class. Yeah. The minors they're essentially slave workers. I would almost call them. They're chained together. It's a very unpleasant living conditions, although they, you know, have a, it's not like a violent society necessarily I don't wanna say society again. I've said it too often. Yeah. Within their culture, but violence is being perpetrated on them to them. Yeah.
Lilly: 5:13
I think Samar actually uses the phrase chain gang. it's very much the like, classic vision of, like when you think almost cartoonish of people in a chain gang, like hammering rocks all changed together.
Sara: 5:29
Yeah. And then there are the people who live above in the world. And they are, well, we mostly see the academics but there are all kinds of like tiers within that cast as well. But they're very much the higher level of citizen.
Lilly: 5:48
Interesting. I would have divided it into the TID versus the. Weightless, I think the main character calls them.
Sara: 5:57
Yeah, he, he calls them the wait list.
Lilly: 5:59
the people in the hold obviously have their ankles changed together and lived their whole lives that way. But then there's sort of the, the middle class, if you will, aren't changed together, but they still have anklets around one of their legs, and that is a marker that they are not totally free in a way that The other people, the highest level of society
Sara: 6:22
Yeah, the, the anted are still second class citizens. And it's in one of the ways that Samar indicates this, which I thought was really interesting, is that none of the characters who. Either from the hold, the chained, or the TED are ever given names
Lilly: 6:42
for the reader anyway.'cause
Sara: 6:44
reader. Yes.
Lilly: 6:45
the professor does have a name and the main character, the boy at one point is like, he's told her name and is just like completely Nope. Doesn't even register
Sara: 6:57
Yes. Specifically, the reader is not given their names.
Lilly: 7:01
Yes. Which adds to the very like. Mythic sense of the book, right? it's not a boy, it's the boy who is doing these things, who's not going on this adventure, but
Sara: 7:14
Who is in the situation Yeah. In the situation.
Lilly: 7:18
And then of course also dehumanizing in a way, right? Because plenty of characters have names.
Sara: 7:26
Well, and I think that's the point that Samar is making, you know?
Lilly: 7:29
Yeah. Oh man. So everything about the prose in this book was very thoughtful in that sense. Except not. Except this is still, I'm sure part of that, except it bothered me immensely because in the first like couple of pages, the boy talks about how they eat pap and this book. Actually, I won't blame the book, Samar wrote the book. The word pap happens way too many times in a very small handful of pages. And I hate that word. I do not like it. It makes me think of a pap smear. I know that's not the only use of the word, but I could not get over it, and I was so glad when it stopped.
Sara: 8:10
It. It was very distracting. Yes, it was very distracting.
Lilly: 8:16
I know, I know like the meaning of the word, but I can't separate it from that. And like those associations in my mind, and for a while at the beginning I was like, I am gonna have to complain about the prose in this book, aren't I? I wasn't. It was okay. It stopped, but it was about to ruin the whole novel for me.
Sara: 8:37
Well, but that's not a prose thing. I mean, that's a, that's a word choice thing.
Lilly: 8:41
is part of pros. But yeah, I mean, it was like, it was so bad, it would have ruined the pros. And part of it was how often it's used in a short period of time because like, I couldn't get away from it,
Sara: 8:53
Yeah,
Lilly: 8:54
but it, that was very short,
Sara: 8:56
They stopped talking about it. Yeah.
Lilly: 8:58
If you start this book and get in two pages and you're like, oh, fuck no, it stops. Don't worry. Other thing about the prose though is that the boy is experiencing, I would say, almost religious visions that I'm not gonna get into in the nons spoiler section, but there are descriptions of the, the connectedness of all living things and his experience of that. And it gets. Very abstract, many different times, and I was fine with it except it eventually did start to weigh on me. And eventually I did leave a comment like, oh no, I think this lost me. But luckily that was in the very final chapter. So like, if it didn't get too bad until the very last time, clearly it wasn't that bad.
Sara: 9:48
There's a lot of very spiritual imagery in this book that he experiences.
Lilly: 9:54
Yeah, and it's very abstract as well there Sometimes it had more concrete metaphors and those were obviously easier to interact with. But there was, there's quite a lot of it. I do think if the book was longer. I would have still been lost at the same point. Not lost, but not no longer on board with it.
Sara: 10:18
it would have lost you.
Lilly: 10:20
Yes, at that same point. And so it being, my note is at 85%, except there's enough back page material that I think that's actually like 95%. So it was fine, but if the book was twice as long, it would've been halfway and that would've been too bad.
Sara: 10:37
Yeah, but it's not, I mean, it's a very short novella it shouldn't be longer, I don't think. It doesn't need more space.
Lilly: 10:45
I think what I'm trying to say is it, it does swing big with that kind of thing, but because it's a shorter book, that's fine. Like it, yeah, and that's one of the beautiful things about shorter works, right? You can kind of go harder on stylistic choices and. Even if they do start to weigh you down eventually, it's fine. I can get through this much of a book like that. And I'm glad I did. I really enjoyed it. It was sad.
Sara: 11:12
Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say something about the ending that is maybe slightly of a spoiler.
Lilly: 11:17
I think like the experience of reading this book. Yeah. We can talk about how it left us feeling in the spoiler section, but it's dealing with a very oppressed population that's not like happy.
Sara: 11:31
No, it, it has, a very heavy story. and so just the act of reading it Yes. Is hard because the characters are living in a very oppressive society, are a very unfair society. And our main characters are part of these. Lower classes. the boy is from the chain and the professor is one of the Ted. And their experiences are not great.
Lilly: 12:02
And then even between their experiences, there is a huge divide. Although as we find out the TID are not, I mean, that's the whole point, right? The, the TID feel like there's so much above the chained. But there's a very thin line between them and the chain. they can be pushed back at any moment on a whim, really.
Sara: 12:24
Yeah, they, ignore it and pretend it's not there because that's how they get through the day basically. And that's how they feel better about. Their position in the world. But that divide is, that divide really is razor thin and it rests entirely on arbitrary decisions that the the wait list make.
Lilly: 12:47
I will say the professor was a little bit frustrating to me, but almost in a fun way. Not fun maybe, but she. Is the, the frazzled academic. She's on too many committees. She's trying to make the world a better place in whatever way she can, in her, you know, corner of the world advocating for people. And she kind of lets herself get, walked all over and it was so stressful, like in a, in a protective way. I felt like I really wanted her to stand up for herself or something, although Ru. Reading further, I realized what situation she was really in. And so that was,
Sara: 13:30
I,
Lilly: 13:30
she was a character I wanted to shake.
Sara: 13:32
yeah, I feel like it's a case of she is trying so hard to prove herself to the other academics in this university and in her department, and I wanted to shake her and go, girl, they're never gonna like you because. You have an anklet, you're always gonna be proving yourself. You're always going to be less than to them. No. Nothing you do is going to make them change their minds about that.
Lilly: 14:02
And there are other characters that say that to her in the text. It's very short, but there's the jaded one. Is another one of the academics is she just called the jaded? her name is something along those lines.
Sara: 14:16
I know there's, I, I think there's the humble professor or the humble one and the the jaded one. Yeah.
Lilly: 14:22
Yeah. Who says like, funny how our proposals always end up to be lacking in merit in some way. Gee, I wonder what that's about. And the professor, our main character, it kind of just like, doesn't even
Sara: 14:36
Yeah. It just goes over her head.
Lilly: 14:39
That was one of the first times a character in the book points out how fucked up the ankle litted situation is because as readers we're entering this world from the boy's perspective, he starts in the hold and obviously that's fucked up. Like you don't need a character in the book to point that out. but then he is brought up and made anted and that is such a leap in his quality of life that he hates. He wants to go back home. But then you sort of start to discover in bits and pieces what it means to be an ankle litted because it's not clear right away. I don't think that there are people without anklets.
Sara: 15:21
No, I don't. I don't think it's immediately evident.
Lilly: 15:24
So yeah, when the jaded one says that it's one of the first, like, okay, okay, there's more, there is more happening here. But it was fascinating with the professor who obviously has grown up, I'm gonna say above ground, although they're in a spaceship, so that's not exactly right.
Sara: 15:42
But that's also kind of how they view it.
Lilly: 15:44
Yeah, the, the hold is at the center of the ships. I believe it, like physic, like
Sara: 15:51
Yeah, I, I think so.
Lilly: 15:53
And something about gravity and space, I don't know. So the professor has lived her life above ground as an tid so of, of a lower class, but she still is familiar with the culture of this society. Yet the boy is so much more socially intelligent than her, I thought was fascinating. Like I, I don't remember how he says it or the how the narrative says it. Something about how once he figured out the different demands people had for him, it was very easy for him to interact. Basically, he figured out what people wanted. If they wanted him to, you know, be excited for their project or if they wanted him to be grateful for his situation and he was able to give them what they wanted and so people tended to like him.
Sara: 16:42
Well, the professor is very naive and she's never had to grow out of that, whereas the boy has been ripped from everything he knew. However awful, you know, that that society is really, it was still what he knew and was familiar with, and he had friends there and family there. Or like pseudo family, even if he didn't actually have any blood relatives left. But he has been thrust into this whole new situation and had to adapt in this environment where everyone looks down on him even more because he doesn't know the cultural norms he is. Not foreign, but essentially foreign. Whereas she's always had that little bit of cushion in her life and she's never had to grow out of it.
Lilly: 17:35
Mm-hmm. but other than, you know, being horribly overwhelmed and not understanding the culture, if he does a remarkable job, I think
Sara: 17:44
Oh, absolutely.
Lilly: 17:45
was just amazingly resilient.
Sara: 17:47
he has a very strong character. I think just like a lot of inner strength.
Lilly: 17:52
yeah, I mean, obviously you feel sympathy for him.'cause it's, I wouldn't even say, it's hard not to, like the book is designed for you to feel sympathy for him. But in many ways he is navigating his situation more adeptly than the professor. He certainly, like you said, more, he's more understanding of his true situation than she is.
Sara: 18:15
and I think that that is partly what allows him to navigate it better. Maybe not, you know, the entire reason, but it definitely helps.
Lilly: 18:25
Mm-hmm. He's insightful. so much of this book was like, yes, yes. They're on a spaceship. There are magical anklets. We'll talk about that later. But also it's about. Academia and the hypocrisy in you know, the, the humanities studying humanity, but also feeling better than many groups of humanity. I am not in academia and so there was probably even more that went over my head.
Sara: 18:53
Yeah, I, I do feel that there was probably a lot that I just didn't. Necessarily catch because I'm not in academia either, although both of my parents did work at university of California in the library. So I feel like I have some understanding of how the library system works, and that's academia adjacent at the very least.
Lilly: 19:16
It is, I am likewise, tangentially aware of, grad school and publish or die is a phrase I know, but like some of the other books we've read, it was enough for me to identify, oh, this is something that's happening here, but not really. But I'm not really able to interact with it on a deeper level than that.
Sara: 19:39
Yeah. And to be fair, to be fair, I will say that the blurb of the book specifically says that it's tackling the carceral state and violence embedded in the ivory tower. So it, it makes it quite clear that this is about. Academia,
Lilly: 19:55
I mean, you have to know that the ivory tower is a pejorative for academia though.
Sara: 20:01
I suppose that's true. If you, if you're not familiar with that phrase, then you wouldn't get it, but.
Lilly: 20:07
I, I mean. Familiar with the phrase, the ivory tower. Sure. But in specifically that it refers to academia, I or that it can specifically refer to academia is like a specific definition of it. Because you can know like, oh yeah, someone's living in an ivory tower. Sure.
Sara: 20:21
Well, I, yeah, I, I meant that you, yes, you were correct. You do have to know specifically that it is referring to academia.
Lilly: 20:28
Yeah. Because. You can know what it means and not catch that specific reference.
Sara: 20:33
Yeah. But still the, the blurb does, you know, make that clear
Lilly: 20:38
it does if you know,
Sara: 20:40
if you know.
Lilly: 20:41
which makes me wonder how many other, if you know, you know, things are happening that I just didn't catch. I like would love to. Hear about that from someone, I don't know. I'm not gonna go to grad school, so it will never be me. And you know, this book makes me feel fine with that, and I don't think you need to be familiar with higher education to get value out of this book. I just think that there, there was clearly an additional layer.
Sara: 21:08
Yeah, it's, it's one of those things where if you have that experience, it probably does add deeper meaning to what you're reading, but you can still read it and enjoy it without having been to grad school or without being in academia.
Lilly: 21:24
Well, who should read this book, Sarah? I'd say if you are looking to engage with a very thoughtful text.
Sara: 21:32
Yeah, I was going to also say something about if you wanted to read a thoughtful novella with sci-fi trappings, but that deals with more than just the, the surface level.
Lilly: 21:44
Yeah, they, they don't reverse the ions at any point. There's no techno babble happening here. I mean, I, I do believe this is firmly sci-fi, but. Not in a star trekky way.
Sara: 21:59
The setting is sci-fi. Some of the space magic is sci-fi. But the plot, I think, or the characters are very you could have them in any kind of setting.
Lilly: 22:12
How dare you call space magic science fiction. I wasn't gonna say anything, but yes, there's magic. In this case, I'm okay with still calling it sci-fi, but like in spite of that, not because of it.
Sara: 22:26
It is the sci-fi kind of space magic.
Lilly: 22:30
It's philosophical space. Magic.
Sara: 22:36
This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.
Lilly: 22:39
That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.
Sara: 22:46
Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and have free access to our biannual zine sotia.
Lilly: 22:53
You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.
Sara: 23:00
Talking about the Patreon plug, we didn't actually mention that. This book was selected for us by our Patreon supporters who voted on, who voted on it from a small selection of, books for us to talk about. So if you are a Patreon supporter, that is also one of your benefits. The remainder of this episode, it contains spoilers.
Lilly: 23:27
Talking about academia. And how this book makes me grateful that I was never interested in it at all. Not that this book was designed to make Lily feel good about her life choices, but, oh man. Do some of those characters suck?
Sara: 23:43
Some of them suck hard. They're terrible.
Lilly: 23:47
And not just, they're in a bad situation because of the society they live in. Like, no, they actively suck.
Sara: 23:53
Yeah. they actively suck like the, the two. Other professors, the jaded one and the humble one, they're okay. We don't necessarily see them enough to make judgment calls about them, but my inclination is that they're not bad, but the people that the professor is closest with turn out to be really terrible.
Lilly: 24:16
Well, I also think it's probably not coincidental that. It is the wait list professors who end up being the worst.
Sara: 24:26
Absolutely. That is not a coincidence at all.
Lilly: 24:28
you mean people of great privilege don't acknowledge or recognize their privilege and end up accidentally, like the people around them.
Sara: 24:39
Accidentally. I'm making big old air quotes there.
Lilly: 24:42
Well, okay. It's we're obviously talking about Gil. because the
Sara: 24:47
Gil. being, yeah, Gil the absolute worst. He is in the beginning, portrayed as the professor's mentor. He's head of the department or something. He's got some kind of departmental power.
Lilly: 24:58
he's her advisor, her academic advisor.
Sara: 25:01
yeah, I think you can say that he's her academic advisor, And he has been very supportive of her work. You know, she goes over to dinner at his house and drinks wine with him and his wife and her, their kids call her auntie and things like that. But when she actually needs him, when she's in a situation because the boy. Has, I don't wanna call it a manic episode, but he, he gets
Lilly: 25:28
He has a spiritual revelation.
Sara: 25:30
yeah, he has a spiritual revelation and he's trying to get back to the hold and she doesn't know what to do, so she calls Gil and instead of being a normal person, Gil is like. You have totally fucked things up for me. I should have expected this because you're Ted and he is terrible to her and to the boy and abuses his power over them because apparently any of the wait lists can control the physical movements of the TED with their phones.
Lilly: 26:11
Yeah, like they all have an app and you can just make them walk around. It is. Chilling because until then, yeah, people have looked down on the ed, but it's just been almost incidental. Like yes, it's a mark that they're of a lower class, but it hasn't really affected that we, the readers have seen their movement throughout society.
Sara: 26:37
We, we don't know until that point. We don't know how great the disparity in power is between the two different classes.
Lilly: 26:47
And when I said earlier that he Gil as the person of privilege accidentally kicking the people around him. No, I don't think his actions were accidental. I don't think he realizes how much he is abusing his power'cause it's normal to him,
Sara: 27:08
I agree with that.
Lilly: 27:09
is what I meant like. His actions weren't accidental, but he did not understand the implications because it's just like, of course he can do that.
Sara: 27:18
yeah. It's not an abuse of power for him because. That's just what you do when you're weightless.
Lilly: 27:26
it's a very stark illustration of people with privilege assuming they deserve it.
Sara: 27:35
Yeah.
Lilly: 27:36
Therefore, people without privilege deserve that too,
Sara: 27:40
Yeah.
Lilly: 27:41
because otherwise they'd have privilege. And it's, I mean, a very literal. Metaphor for that. I mean, he presses the button on his phone and they have to walk the direction he wants them to like that. There's no nothing subtle there in a very powerful way.
Sara: 27:58
Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's an incredibly striking moment in the book. A terrible one, but it, it's a really powerful scene.
Lilly: 28:09
And the betrayal of that moment where I, and I mean, I think as a reader, I was probably closer to the professor than I wanted, than I like to think it on purpose, right? Because my amount of information has been controlled so carefully. I can consider the professor naive, but like also I am just as naive as her when it comes to the culture that we're reading about. But for someone that you thought was an ally to pull, that is, I mean,
Sara: 28:43
It is heartbreaking.
Lilly: 28:45
it is, and it, I mean, it's worse that it's him, right? And not just some law enforcement guy.
Sara: 28:51
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the, the fact that it is someone close to her who knows her personally, who up until this point, I would've called them good friends because she considered them to be good friends,
Lilly: 29:04
he probably did too,
Sara: 29:06
and he probably did too. That is what makes it so awful. Like it would be awful anyway, but that's just another level of awfulness to it.
Lilly: 29:18
And the thing that makes him break is just inconvenience. He's like, I have a class at 8:00 AM and you called me out of bed this early.
Sara: 29:27
Yeah.
Lilly: 29:29
Like he, his tolerance has apparently been, I mean, non-existent. Right. we find out sort of through some other conversations in this book that. The professor is very good at what she does, and Gil has been not using her, but in, in the academic way of, ah, yes, that's my student who's doing all that smart stuff. It reflects well on him. And so he's been supportive, but as it turns out, in an only when it benefits
Sara: 30:01
Yeah, in a very self-serving way.
Lilly: 30:04
yes. Then Marjorie, another academic that they work with who has been kind of useless and condescending towards the boy in a way that really bothered the professor.
Sara: 30:17
Condescending towards both of them really.
Lilly: 30:19
Yes. She ends up being like, having a moment. I was, I, I can't say she ends up being really cool because that's maybe an overstatement.
Sara: 30:30
She, she ends up being, I would say that she's less of a dick than Gil because, Gil brings the professor and the boy to Marjorie, right? Because he's like, I have this class at 8:00 AM You deal with them and. Then he leaves to go deal with his class and Marjorie lets them out of their lockstep and helps them go, do what they want to do in the hold and on this other other ship. But she does it not because she feels any sympathy for them necessarily, but because she. Or her family a long time ago was kind of fucked by the system, not in a way that actually brought them down to the level of the TED or the chained, but they were like super wealthy and then they lost a bunch of money. So you you still have limited sympathy for her. But she
Lilly: 31:29
But she's mad at the system in a way that Gil is not.
Sara: 31:33
She's mad at the system, so she helps them because she wants to fuck the system and she doesn't care about them personally, but the fact that she doesn't care about them personally, and so after she helps them goes back to being kind of a dick. Means that for me as a reader, like that's not a betrayal because she didn't care about them in the first place and she still doesn't care about them. That's just her being kind of an asshole, but in a consistent way.
Lilly: 32:07
Well, she's very honest right in, in a way that Gil clearly hasn't been. And Ag, I think, I don't think he was purposefully fooling anyone. That's why I. Accidental maybe doesn't give him enough bad credit, but she, I think like the boy sees a lot more of the reality of the situation than Gil or the professor do.
Sara: 32:32
Yeah.
Lilly: 32:33
And so she does immediately throw them under the bus to save her own ass, but like, yeah, that's, honestly, that's fine.
Sara: 32:42
And she, she also told them that she was gonna do that. Like, she was like, you know, I'll, I'll get you the papers you need to get onto this other ship, but I'm not gonna help you on the way back.
Lilly: 32:53
Yeah. And something about that honesty is more ref, well, it's obviously more refreshing than any of the other characters, but like her motives were so unsatisfying in a book that is so. Philosophical, the boy has been learning how the anklets are all connected and he can like communicate with other people that have anklets and that's how he finds this person on another ship. Like he knows exactly where she is. He's kind of having a religious experience on one side. And then in this book, immediately on the next page is Marjorie the practical. I think she even calls Gil an asshole.
Sara: 33:38
She does.
Lilly: 33:39
she's just delightfully straightforward.
Sara: 33:42
Yeah. She's also self-serving, but in a way that doesn't feel as bad because there's no hidden. I mean, Gail doesn't necessarily have hidden motivations, but with Marjorie, yeah, it's straightforward. There's no pretense of, even, even to oneself of, you know, I'm a, I'm a great person because I'm helping this anted.
Lilly: 34:08
Right. And having that in a book where there, there is so much like philosophy and oneness and understanding your like, position in the universe and how everything fits together. And then she's over here like, fuck that guy. I really loved her motivations even though they were not like satisfying from a. Humanistic perspective.
Sara: 34:33
I think it was a, down to earth,
Lilly: 34:36
Yeah.
Sara: 34:37
a, a realism that was a good counterbalance to all of the mystical religious stuff.
Lilly: 34:45
Well, and you get Gil who professes that. He is this good guy who has advocated for the ED and helped the professor and done so much for her. Then when the push comes to shove, he like doesn't just let her down, but actively fucks her
Sara: 35:04
yeah, I mean, he, he perpetrates this continuation of violence against her.
Lilly: 35:10
Whereas Marjorie, who has also been helping with the projects but has not been as self-righteous about it as everyone else, which I think might've been part of the reason why she butted heads with a professor. Right.
Sara: 35:23
Yeah. I mean, and they do say, I think, she calls that out explicitly. Like the professor asks her, did you give me a bad rating in my last like. Professor Review and she's like, yeah, I did. You're hard to work with.
Lilly: 35:38
But she's the one who's willing to not, you know, she still doesn't put herself in danger but goes out of her way to help them. that was like definitely my favorite sequence in the book. Just for, I mean, Gill's character reveal and then Marjorie's. It was just like, oh, there, there was a lot of emotional action in that section for such a short novella.
Sara: 36:01
It is such a great reversal of expectations.
Lilly: 36:05
Yes. I think it was fascinating how, okay, we talked about wanting to shake the professor, right?
Sara: 36:12
Yeah.
Lilly: 36:13
She does not look out for herself, and part of my instinct towards her was that I really didn't want her to have negative consequences for being kind to the boy and not like in a. Narrative sense, but just like me personally, even though she's kind of a dingus, she's clearly doing a kind thing out of kindness. I mean, she considers it a kind thing, the boy might argue, but
Sara: 36:41
Yeah, I mean
Lilly: 36:42
you can't fault her motives.
Sara: 36:44
I think she's still. In part is coming to it from a perspective of wanting to study this lower class, but she also does genuinely want to help him.
Lilly: 37:03
Mm-hmm.
Sara: 37:04
And her father was one of the chain who had an opportunity like this, so she has a very personal motivation for wanting to reinstate this program as well. So it's, I feel like it's all tied up and, and muddled up where some of it is this ivory tower looking down on what you study, but part of it is really genuine.
Lilly: 37:26
Yes. And. As I was reading it, I just, I didn't want bad things to happen to her for doing good things. And so I was like, please wise up, like please, please see the reality of your situation. Stop letting people walk all over you. And I realized when I got to the end that that was because I didn't think. She could have a good ending if she continued the way she was truly sympathizing with the boy and the situation and the hold. And you know, the more she learned about it, the more she wanted to learn. And it felt more genuine as time went on also, uh, as she spent time in the hold. and I don't know if that was me being a pessimist. Or my expectations for edgy sci-fi that I could not imagine her having a good outcome if she stayed like sincere. So I wanted her to wise up.
Sara: 38:27
I mean, maybe a little bit of both. I, I do think that there is some edgy sci-fi where you get a bad ending just because that's the edgy thing. I didn't necessarily want her to wise up in like, I wanted her to continue being genuine, but I. Wanted her to be a little more politically savvy in playing the internal academic politics needed to to promote this program.
Lilly: 38:56
Yes, I, I think that's me. My version of rooting for her was get better at playing the game.
Sara: 39:04
Yeah.
Lilly: 39:05
And then the ending of the book made me look like an ass because the whole point ended up being don't strive to go higher up in the hierarchy. Don't play the game, get out of the hierarchy.
Sara: 39:19
Yeah, break the system.
Lilly: 39:20
And that's the, the horizon is something that the boy was told and understands at the end is. On earth, there was a horizon. You didn't have to look up, you looked out. And that ends up being a very, I guess not literal, it's still a metaphor, but a very direct metaphor.
Sara: 39:39
But I wonder how much of that is, the optimism of fiction. Whereas we're coming to it with some of the pessimism of reality where you do usually have to play the game in order to make change in these situations.
Lilly: 39:56
I think this book is trying to challenge that, right?
Sara: 39:59
Yeah, it, I mean, it, it is,
Lilly: 40:02
And that was me going, no, just, just get higher up in the hierarchy and then you can help more people. But that's still feeding the machine.
Sara: 40:10
yeah. I don't know, but it's a little easier to, to break the chains in this book, I think, than it is in real life.
Lilly: 40:19
well, when there are literal chains, it is more straightforward.
Sara: 40:23
And, and also space magic where you can connect to everyone's anklets in your mind
Lilly: 40:31
that that does help.
Sara: 40:33
That does help.
Lilly: 40:34
I was shocked that the guard ended up being cool.
Sara: 40:40
I know. Me too.
Lilly: 40:42
And I think that is when, when I think of the guards, the, the guess it's not a prison, but the guards who are guarding the chain, I think of them as perpetuating the system.
Sara: 40:53
and they do. I, I think that they are in some respects, guards of a prison.
Lilly: 40:58
They are, it's just not, that's not the language used in this world.
Sara: 41:01
And they certainly are perpetuating the system. But it, it was nice to see the guard who shows up throughout the book, and I feel like he kind of goes, we don't see it as much, but I feel like he kind of goes on a parallel journey with the professor as she learns more about the hold and comes to empathize more with the people in there. So does he, and so by the end of the book, he's also been with them on. Much of their experiences. And so he has an expanded mind about things too.
Lilly: 41:35
Well, and he is an ankle. You know, he's not a weightless, and yet he is keeping the, the lowest level down in a, you know, direct physical sense. But I really like that Samar kind of flipped that script and. Pointed the finger at the people at the top of the hierarchy for perpetuating the class system and not the people in the middle who yes. Are doing so, but in a, not self-serving way, but like in a survival way,
Sara: 42:12
Yeah,
Lilly: 42:13
like. Yeah, it's not great that they're keeping people in chains, but they're really not the ones who are creating and perpetuating the system from
Sara: 42:21
yeah. There's, there's this a different level of responsibility.
Lilly: 42:25
And because the guards are Ted, it really puts them in the system as much as the chain are, right, because we know that they could be sent right down so easily.
Sara: 42:37
Yeah. They, they live with that fear their entire lives, basically, I think all of the to do, that's the impression that I got like one wrong step, and you'll be threatened with being sent back to the hold.
Lilly: 42:49
Mm-hmm. It was a very powerful book. I quite enjoyed it. Like I said, the, the final religious experience lost me a little bit, but. I think I actually would have benefited from reading this book across a longer period of time.
Sara: 43:10
Hmm.
Lilly: 43:11
It's very short. It's a, you, you said it was officially a novella?
Sara: 43:15
a novella. Yeah.
Lilly: 43:16
And I, I was able to read it in just about one sitting, but because. The narrative is so folkloric. I think I would've preferred to take my time. I would've glazed over less in the the wishy-washy. We are all a river parts.
Sara: 43:35
Yeah, I mean. I think it probably does benefit from a slower reading. But one of the great joys of a novella is that you can very easily reread it.
Lilly: 43:45
Yes, and I, I should clarify, that's probably partially a reader mismatch. I don't particularly enjoy religion. And so I, I think it is more a comment in the book's favor that it took me so long to get over it than anything else.
Sara: 44:03
Yeah, probably. But yeah, I really enjoyed this book. I don't know what I expected going into it but I'm very glad that we read it for the podcast.
Lilly: 44:12
Me too. Oh, I went in completely blind. I only knew the title. You might have given me a description a couple weeks ago, but I had forgotten it by the time I started.
Sara: 44:22
I did not give you a description. I think I, told you that this was a book that a lot of people liked and it won some awards.
Lilly: 44:30
Yeah. But it is always fun going into something with no expectations and truly experiencing it. As the words on the page tell you what's happening. And I, that is maybe a dumb thing to say, but you know, when you're choosing a book to read and you're reading descriptions and looking up genres and what are the tropes in this book, you end up going into it with expectations.
Sara: 44:54
Yeah.
Lilly: 44:55
Or listening to a podcast episode I do really enjoy. Sometimes that sends me on a curve. But I think this book, uh. I won't say benefited from that because I, I don't think you would
Sara: 45:07
I don't think it needed. Yeah, I don't think it needed that.
Lilly: 45:10
But this book was such that I particularly enjoyed it maybe is what I mean.
Sara: 45:19
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Lilly: 45:23
Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.
Sara: 45:35
If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.
Lilly: 45:42
We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.
Sara: 45:48
Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!
