The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
- Fiction Fans
- 8 hours ago
- 31 min read
Episode 227
Release Date: Feb 25, 2026
Your hosts get a little political with The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin. They compare it to some of her other Earthsea series, enjoy the overall humanitarian message, and point out a few (startlingly few) areas where it didn't age as well.
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:04
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,
Sara: 0:10
And I'm Sarah, and today we will be talking about The Dispossessed by Ursula Kay Le Guin.
Lilly: 0:16
but first we have our quick five minute introduction, starting with something great that happened recently
Sara: 0:23
Well, I was going to tell a story about my father meeting Ursula Kay Le Guin, but apparently I told that the first time we covered one of her books. So, I'm gonna use something that's actually much more relevant as a good thing and actually recent and didn't happen in the early eighties. My daffodils are starting to bloom, so that's really nice.
Lilly: 0:43
Oh, lovely. We have crocuses coming up like gangbusters and I can see the daffodil like leaves, but no buds yet.
Sara: 0:51
Yeah, I, I've got lots of buds. They're very pretty. I think daffodils are one of my favorite flowers actually.
Lilly: 0:57
They're mine for sure. Yeah. Partially because they are such an early flower.
Sara: 1:02
That does help. I mean, it's a little less relevant here because we've got generally such a temperate climate, but
Lilly: 1:09
My good thing is that I made not one but two batches of brownies,
Sara: 1:14
oh my
Lilly: 1:16
Kind of to prove a point. My husband asked why I needed cocoa powder because we have hot chocolate powder.
Sara: 1:23
totally different.
Lilly: 1:25
alright, let's see how that turns out. Actually fine. The texture's weird as hell, but and it's also not nearly as chocolatey obviously. But I mean, like it still tastes good. So I kind of ate my words on that one, but I'll eat the brownies too, so that's fine.
Sara: 1:44
It all works out.
Lilly: 1:45
Yes. What are you drinking tonight?
Sara: 1:49
Today is a, a cider kind of day. This is not a cider kind of book, but the day called for it. So that's what I'm drinking.
Lilly: 1:58
I am drinking pineapple bubbly water, which is pretty good. it's out of a can not concocted myself. Not all bubbly water flavors are created equal. And this one I quite like. I feel like this is a plain H2O book.
Sara: 2:17
Yes, I kind of feel like it could also be a hot chocolate book because, like shek when he's on the very decadent planet, I think he drinks some hot chocolate. But that's not the vibe of the book. That's just like that specific location.
Lilly: 2:36
mean, he also drinks what I think is champagne and gets horribly drunk and take a terrible hangover. So just'cause the beverage appears in the book, doesn't mean it's the right beverage for the book,
Sara: 2:49
Very true.
Lilly: 2:50
but like good old fashioned, healthy, hydrating water, no frills, no shade either. Sometimes you just want a glass of water.
Sara: 3:01
true.
Lilly: 3:02
Mm-hmm. That's not what I'm drinking though.
Sara: 3:05
It's not what either of us are drinking.
Lilly: 3:08
And have you read anything non podcast related?
Sara: 3:13
No.
Lilly: 3:14
Alright, moving on.
Sara: 3:16
but I have read The Dispossessed which is our first science fiction novel of Le Gwen's. I say our, because I'm pretty sure you haven't read anymore of her work than I have.
Lilly: 3:28
No, and it was specifically recommended to us. Well, I don't think this book specifically, I think our patron said that we should read some of her sci-fi.
Sara: 3:39
No, he, he specifically recommended this book.
Lilly: 3:42
Oh, okay. But I remember the reasoning being, because we ought to read some of her sci-fi.
Sara: 3:47
Yes. Also, thank you to our patrons for suggesting books for us
Lilly: 3:52
Yeah. Is this the last one of the series?
Sara: 3:55
Yes, this is the last book in the in, in this round of patron's choice.
Lilly: 4:00
Excellent. And what, what a book to end on for that. This was, Hmm. I'm gonna say a lot, and I mean that in a couple different ways. In one sense, it's pretty heavy is not quite the right word. I don't wanna say dense either, because it's not like the pros was hard to get through. There's just a lot of philosophy.
Sara: 4:22
it deals, it deals with a lot of like kind of heavy subject matter
Lilly: 4:27
Yeah,
Sara: 4:29
and yeah, there's a lot of philosophy.
Lilly: 4:31
and it's also quite emotional.
Sara: 4:33
it felt very different from her, from the two earthly books that, that we've read. And that probably shouldn't have been a surprise to me because she's a talented author and authors, you know, they can write different things. But I still don't think I was expecting it to feel so different.
Lilly: 4:54
That's so interesting that you bring that up because I had the exact same thought right away, but I kind of Attributed it to being. An adult novel instead of a YA novel. I say adult, not in the fun, sexy way, but like for adults.
Sara: 5:13
I suppose it's possible that that might have something to do with it. I can't remember if her earth see novels were specifically targeted at the young adult audience or not.
Lilly: 5:23
I thought Wizard of Earth Sea for sure was.
Sara: 5:27
You could be right? Like I, this is, this is not me disagreeing with you. This is just me not remembering.
Lilly: 5:32
I remember in part of our conversation we talk about how she specifically wrote it in response to all the Wizard mentor characters that show up in young adult books. So it was supposed to be like the coming of age story.
Sara: 5:47
Hmm.
Lilly: 5:48
Anyway, no wizards here.
Sara: 5:51
No wizards here.
Lilly: 5:53
Kind of a coming of age story. Not really. We follow our main character Vek through what I'm going to call current day events, and then alternating chapters are kind of telling us the story of his life from very early childhood up through the beginning of the novel.
Sara: 6:13
Yeah, so we do see him coming of age, but it's not a coming of age story.
Lilly: 6:17
Right? Yeah.
Sara: 6:18
This is entirely a me thing. But I did keep wanting to call him Shire after a character from a Sherwood Smith novel. I just, I had the hardest time with his name. I just could not get it.
Lilly: 6:35
All of the names are very, I was gonna say fantasy, nonsense. I'm not gonna ar try to argue that this is actually fantasy in space. This is definitely a science fiction novel, even for my weird definition of science fiction. But the names are ver, they feel more like fantasy, nonsense than sci-fi nonsense. And that's just purely vibes that I cannot justify in any way.
Sara: 6:58
I mean the, the premise of a lot of the names is that a computer decides them so that there are no multiples in the society. Like Sheik Sheik is not the first sheik, but he is the only sheik at that point in time and will continue to be so until he dies.
Lilly: 7:18
Right? So they are just strings of letters.
Sara: 7:21
Yes. I think it's interesting that this is apparently loosely part of a series. Called the Heinous Cycle. In, in that there are, some technological things that are created in this novel that show up in some of the other novels and, races that occur. But it, it is basically a standalone. And I,
Lilly: 7:45
cycle, they don't even show up on the page. We just kind of know that they exist. Okay. The very loosely then. Okay. I, I see what you mean.
Sara: 7:56
yes, I mean, loosely like it takes place in the same universe with the same kind of confederation of planets. But
Lilly: 8:05
I.
Sara: 8:06
I don't think you have to read this novel to understand any of the other books, and I don't think you have to read the other books to understand this one. I mean, I certainly haven't read anything. Anything else in the the cycle,
Lilly: 8:18
Me neither. So a lot of this book feels like Ursula k Le Guin explaining her sim city strategy to us, the reader, I'm not
Sara: 8:31
you're not wrong.
Lilly: 8:32
like a city and saying, and the administrative buildings are over here, and then the warehouses are next to the workshops and they're around the edges. And then the, all of the streets are designed in this way. And I will admit, I glazed over in a couple of those places. there is a story happening, but it does feel like Chev and his life and his story we're hearing his story because it gets to delve into some of the intricacies of the, these societies.
Sara: 9:05
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that this is Le Guin kind of exploring both what a super capitalistic society looks like in the future, but also what a, I'm gonna call it a utopia. I don't, I don't think an is a utopia. But, but she's exploring what utopia could look like, you know, ev everyone working together for the common good.
Lilly: 9:33
Non authoritarian communist society is the what she actually calls it. This does not come until chapter 11 out of 13. I spend most of my notes going, I know there's probably a specific word for this structure of society and I am not going to try to figure that out. But she told me and I was like, great, thank you. And I'm gonna push back. I know you just used that word and specifically said that it's not correct, but it's really not like it's not a utopia. There are issues with that, with an Rs, the planet that Vek is from, and I really appreciated that. It felt like a very measured consideration of not just what a society with this structure might look like, but also what are some of the dangers that. You would need to look out for some of the pitfalls,
Sara: 10:24
Right and right. And that's why I think that she is exploring, you know, that idea of utopia, but it's an exploration. That doesn't mean that that anari is one. It it just means that she is looking at like,
Lilly: 10:41
what it would take to get there.
Sara: 10:42
Yeah. What it
Lilly: 10:43
exploring the concept, not saying this is what it
Sara: 10:46
Yes, exactly. And, and like, you know, the, the original settlers on Anari have these ideas of what they want their society to look like, these utopian ideas of what they want their society to look like. And then we see them 140 or 150 years later and we see some of the pitfalls, like you said some of the dangers, some of the, ways that power structures can solidify even in a community that purports to not have them, if you are not being careful.
Lilly: 11:20
Yes, absolutely. There's also a lot of philosophy talk. Now I'm specifically not gonna say physics because I don't, I, it probably does technically fall under the umbrella of physics. There were a moment, oh, here's my, oh no. Am I the bad guy? Moment in reading this book, Shek, our main character was explaining something about time. You can tell I was really deeply engaged with the physics portions and the other character went, why does this matter? And I was like, oh no. I'm supposed to hate you. And I agree with you right now. I am just really not a philosophy person. I know that about myself. I'm okay with that, about myself. But that being said, I have no problem with other people, you know, caring.
Sara: 12:12
and shek to be fair, I mean, he was very drunk in, in that particular scene and he had decided that he wasn't gonna talk philosophy physics with people because they wouldn't care. It would go over their head, and then he got very drunk and did it because you lose your inhibitions.
Lilly: 12:31
And, and in that moment, or at least in that specific argument, the character who said, why should I care meant Because it won't make me money. And that's not why I don't care. I just sincerely don't, which makes me better than him. That the, the philosophy parts were probably the hardest for me to get through, just simply because the nature of the universe is not interesting to me.
Sara: 12:59
I mean, I found it interesting, but it was a lot denser. I'm not gonna say that, you know it, I comprehended all of it. But also I, I enjoy reading dense academic stuff. It just, it felt like coming home
Lilly: 13:14
Yeah. The, the conversations on, you know, the nature of society and how a societal system breaks down when humanity is introduced to it. I was on board with that. There was still a lot of pontificating, but at least I was like engaging with it.
Sara: 13:33
well, and those were also a little bit easier because it was usually two people having a dialogue where, where both understood what was being said. I mean, Sheik I'm not gonna say purposefully, but he, I a very. High level understanding of his field of physics in a way that made it kind of inaccessible to everyone he was talking to.
Lilly: 13:58
Yeah. I mean, not just in that scene. He talks about physics a lot.
Sara: 14:01
Right? Not, not just in that scene. I mean, I mean in general, like so all of the times what he's talking about it are a little harder.
Lilly: 14:09
I really loved the exploration of you. You said this a little while ago, how even in a system that is designed to be egalitarian and have no power structure can still end up with a hierarchy and how that kind of evolved into. It's even harder to push back against an implied hierarchy because there is no actual system to push back against. It's all just people's expectations.
Sara: 14:43
Yeah, the, the societal pressure. And then also it's harder to convince people and we see it in the novel. It's, it's harder to convince people that something is there because they're like, but, but we're a flat, you know, a flat management structure. What do you, what do you mean there's a power system?
Lilly: 15:03
There is no boss. Okay. Well, someone decides what gets published, so someone is making that choice and they have power, right?
Sara: 15:13
yeah, that was a really fascinating I'm gonna call it a journey of discovery through, through this novel, because Sheik, he does push back on the idea initially. And. So we see him actually like, run up against it and we, we see that whole idea encapsulated not just in the text of the novel, but also in like what he's actually dealing with.
Lilly: 15:42
And he's so frustrated at first because he is still in that true believer camp of, well, our society says that there is no power structure and therefore there isn't. so when he kind of runs up against it and is thwarted by it, he doesn't know where to direct His anger is maybe not quite the right way to describe it. He's a very even keeled man. But I mean, it is frustrating to have your work dismissed and have nothing you can do about it.
Sara: 16:12
And he doesn't know. Yeah. He doesn't know where to to direct that frustration.
Lilly: 16:17
Yeah. And there is no system for reconciliation, right? Like in a well-functioning system that has a power structure, there's a way to keep that in check, right? But you have to acknowledge that it's there to have those checks and balances.
Sara: 16:35
And I think also when you have a system like this that purports to not have a power structure being thwarted can sometimes be a little more frustrating than if you're in a system that has an obvious power structure that thwarts you, even if that system is not working well. Because then at least you can point to something and say, this is why. Like, this is what is stopping me
Lilly: 16:58
Yes, exactly.
Sara: 16:59
is, this is who to blame.
Lilly: 17:01
And therefore there is a path around it. But if it's just like, sorry, throw your hands up. Everything you've been working on for the last however long it was years is gonna go nowhere, and there's nothing you can do about it that I can't imagine.
Sara: 17:18
Yeah.
Lilly: 17:19
Oh. But that also kind of connects with, because in this case, that power structure he's running up against for the most part is trying to get his work published right. In an, in an academic setting. And that unfolds later into the larger conversation of the dissemination of information and how much power is in that. And we, you know, we saw it early with the, academics. Being able to say, no, we won't publish it, therefore no one will read it. But then we also have, you know, the control of information between ans the, oh, I came up, I had the, I had what it was called, do I still have it up? Non authoritarian, communist planet versus ores, which is the, you can say your bog, standard capitalist planet. They, but both power structures on those two places would not let information about the other through, which is so fascinating.
Sara: 18:21
Yeah, it was a real, just a really interesting discussion of power. Basically and like, the, the best sci-fi felt, still very uncomfortably prescient.
Lilly: 18:37
Oh my gosh. When Sheik is first going to Ores, he has to get a vaccine for the measles.'cause there's currently an outbreak. And I was like, ah,
Sara: 18:47
Yeah, this book was published in 1974. Definitely still relevant in 2026.
Lilly: 18:54
yeah, I had a couple of other ones, but I, they're not super spoilery except maybe a little bit there. There were some other things that felt like a little too close to February, 2026
Sara: 19:08
Yeah.
Lilly: 19:10
And that might be part of what made this book so emotional is the only word I can think of for it, but that's not quite right. It. Even though it is dealing with these highly conceptual, philosophical aspects of society, it is still very personal. it's exploring those things through how these systems affect regular people. And so you're reading like people have lives and bad things happen. That's not that crazy to say that's pretty normal, but
Sara: 19:42
Wild concept.
Lilly: 19:44
you're very invested in these characters and so it's, you know, when shek is having a bad moment in his career or in his love life, I'm calling it a bad moment is so trivializing, but I don't wanna spoil anything. You know what I mean? it brings you the reader with him. Not just him. Like there's other characters that we see going through events and so it was a very interesting experience to be reading this book that I blithely described as, ah, politics. I'm Not wrong, but it's so much more affecting than that.
Sara: 20:27
It's not, I mean, yes it is politics on a grand scale because everything has an impact. But it is very much about Shak coming up against these politics and how it affects him with the implications of how it affects. Society, you know, on a, on a larger scale,
Lilly: 20:49
Yeah, it was. A very engaging book in that way. Like I felt very much in it with these characters, which I just wouldn't expect from a political treatise.
Sara: 21:03
I know you, you have a much, a more difficult time with political novels than I do. I had a little bit of a difficult time getting into it, at the start, more so I would say than with the two Earth Sea novels that we've read. But by about the, maybe a little bit before the halfway point, like, I was really invested in everything that was happening and the themes that Lagu wanted to touch on and how she was doing. So, it was worth pushing past that momentary, not distaste, but just lack of engagement.
Lilly: 21:42
Yeah, I mostly agree it was less of a cliff and more of a gradual thing for me. I don't know if you had that same
Sara: 21:53
Yeah. I, I would, I would say that was how it was for me as well.
Lilly: 21:57
'cause for some books it's like, I, I am not interested, not interested, not interested. And then at a certain point I'm like, okay, I'm all in.
Sara: 22:05
Yeah. No, this, this was a gradual like deepening of my engagement
Lilly: 22:10
I agree completely. And it was, as we learned more about shek and for me in those, those early parts, his childhood and backstory is not quite right. Learning about him growing up was definitely what kept me interested until. Maybe a third in. And then I was much more engaged with the, book as a whole.
Sara: 22:34
Yeah.
Lilly: 22:35
I think what made it feel poignant and not just like a poorly disguised essay was how much chk goes back and forth about anari. and sometimes he's very patriotic, for lack of better word. He truly believes in the system that they have intended to build, even if it didn't quite work out that way. He really believes in, you know, people helping each other, and then sometimes he's like, it's dusty and it sucks There.
Sara: 23:10
I, I feel like he does sometimes have a little bit of a, the grass is greener mentality where he likes Nars more when he's not on it, and he can compare it to what he's currently in. But he does have complicated feelings because, you know, he, he sees. What the society is on an Aris is aiming for and the values that they place in people helping each other. And then he can contrast that with the, you know, capitalist society that is on Aus. And yeah, I think people helping each other is a much nicer ideal than everyone's in it just for profit. But he felt very, very much like a person and, that he goes back and forth. You know, he, he's not just static or one thing at any one time, which I liked.
Lilly: 24:06
Yeah, and I mean this is more how Le Guin framed it in the novel than Sheek himself, but even ES is not like a dystopian hellhole.
Sara: 24:19
Yeah, it's not uniformly bad,
Lilly: 24:22
And we even see some outside opinions very late through the book that is like, are you kidding? Aura is about as good as you could get out here. And I just, I really appreciated that like. Neither system is perfect. They both have pros and cons.
Sara: 24:40
and I think that's what makes it work too, right? Like the story as a whole or the, themes that Lagu is exploring because I don't think that the point hits as hard if both or one society is a caricature.
Lilly: 24:57
the horrible thought while I was reading this. I was like, ah, shit, do I have to read Ayn Rand just so that I can say I have, just so you can use it as a counterpoint for books like this. Like I feel like that's the, obvious story, that that is really just an exploration of, idealistic society. I have not read Atlas Shrugged. I don't really want to. Is there value in it culturally? Maybe.
Sara: 25:25
I mean, I am not gonna argue for reading it for the podcast, so.
Lilly: 25:32
I found myself going, I guess I, obviously, I'm familiar with it in concept, and I've heard plenty of complaints about it.
Sara: 25:40
I have just realized that I keep getting it mixed up with Cloud Atlas.
Lilly: 25:44
oh, very different.
Sara: 25:45
Very different.
Lilly: 25:47
Cloud Atlas. I could argue for reading on the podcast. I mean, I could argue for Atlas Shrugged, but I'm not gonna do that to you.
Sara: 25:55
I appreciate that. Thank you.
Lilly: 25:57
But it, it makes me, this is the stupidest thing, but it makes me want to have read that book. So I could compare this, not compare this book to it, but from what I understand of Atlas Shrugged, this book sounds much better.
Sara: 26:12
That doesn't surprise me
Lilly: 26:14
And not just because I agree with one of the authors more than the other. Like just the book is better also.
Sara: 26:20
again. That doesn't surprise me.
Lilly: 26:23
And now I'm wondering if that's a huge, I mean it is a huge hole in my reading, but there are so many and life is short.
Sara: 26:32
Life is short. You don't have to close all the gaps in your reading.
Lilly: 26:36
No. Now The Dispossessed by Ursula, Kayla g Guin, absolutely a gap worth closing.
Sara: 26:43
Yes. if you like science fiction novels, thoughtful science fiction novels I think this still is worth reading even in 2026. even though there are lots of other sci-fi novels out there now I think this holds up as a, really good one. And particularly if you want to read more or Ursula Le Guen, like, yes, read this.
Lilly: 27:06
The concepts explored in this book are absolutely still like relevant today, I would say.
Sara: 27:13
Yeah. And you know, she is, I think I can say characteristically, even though we haven't read much of her characteristically thoughtful. the prose is good. Yeah. It's, just a good book.
Lilly: 27:29
This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by sia.
Sara: 27:32
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Lilly: 27:39
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Sara: 27:47
You can find all the issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.
Lilly: 27:54
The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. now we can actually talk about the really impactful relationships instead of just saying they're, and there
Sara: 28:09
It's always so hard to to talk in the Nons Spoiler section about a book.
Lilly: 28:15
I was absolutely fascinated by the relationship between shek and his mother Ula, because he resents her so much. But like according to his own philosophy and what we get on the page, she doesn't do anything wrong.
Sara: 28:37
yeah. I mean certainly by societal standards in an artist. She does nothing wrong. She leaves him for a job placement when he's very young. And because his father is less skilled than than she is, he's not able to find a job placement with her. And Sheik stays with his father and Ulla goes off and does her work. And it is really interesting that Sheik resents that so much
Lilly: 29:08
So much, and he doesn't admit it. He just can't stand her when he does eventually meet her. And so, like a biological parent leaving their child to be raised by someone else is very normal in their culture. Encouraged to a degree even I think sheek. His partner are kind of side eyed for keeping their children with them
Sara: 29:33
Yeah, they're, they're absolutely not the norm. And I, it, part of it I think has to do with this society is so anti proper, Arian being you know, someone who owns property. Not that your familial relationships are property, but they almost kind of
Lilly: 29:53
They treat it that way. They, yeah. They say if you want to have your child, that is you wanting to own them. And it's like, well, that's a little extreme.
Sara: 30:06
it's, that's, yeah, that's, that's one way in which I very much don't agree with some of the, the tenets of the society.
Lilly: 30:15
Well, and it clearly doesn't totally work right, because Sheek is really upset.
Sara: 30:22
Mm-hmm.
Lilly: 30:23
Even though even at the end when we were hearing him and, oh, what is his partner's name? Oh, no. Tacker are talking about their kids. Taver is like, well I guess she's talking to someone else about Sheik because she says he sees nothing wrong with people doing that. We just want to raise our kids. And it's like, does he though, does he see nothing wrong with that? And technically his father is the one that keeps him away from his mother.'cause his father could have followed her and then just not had a job. That is perfectly acceptable in their society.
Sara: 31:00
it is acceptable, but it's also still a little side eyed.
Lilly: 31:04
A little side eyed. Yes.
Sara: 31:06
and they have a discussion not in relation to Chef X father specifically, but in general about the optics of someone not having a job and how the society really like conditions you to view that as less than.
Lilly: 31:24
Mm-hmm.
Sara: 31:25
So yes, technically he could have done that, but it makes sense given the societal pressures that he wouldn't have.
Lilly: 31:34
It does, it, it kind of just reveals the double, not double standard two-faced nature, like it's totally okay. For a biological parent to not raise their own child except when it's me. And then it's totally okay for someone to not have a job except you'll get ostracized.
Sara: 31:58
Everyone needs to be a productive member of society and following your spouse and not having a job isn't being productive enough. No house husbands or housewives in the society.
Lilly: 32:11
Although I do think it was implied that Palat could have followed her if he had taken a whatever job, but he wanted to stay in his career or his specialty, and there were no openings of his specialty where she went. So if he was like, sure, I'll go be a janitor, he would've been able to go.
Sara: 32:29
Yeah, I, that, that is kind of implied. I agree.
Lilly: 32:33
So even, frankly, even worse for. Not worse, but more hypocritical for shek to not blame Palat his father, because it wasn't even that he would've had to not have a job. It was just in an industry you weren't as interested in. Which would've been fine except for how much shek really judged Ru and then Sheik ends up leaving his kids. Or singular at the time, singular kid.
Sara: 33:00
Yes. But, but Sheik does always have the intent of coming back, which is not something that RU can say.
Lilly: 33:12
I thought it was said that she had the intention and then just like didn't pursue it. Very hard
Sara: 33:18
Well, she looked for him, but I don't think that's the same thing as, as actively trying to get back to him.
Lilly: 33:23
maybe. Sure. But I, my point is I'm glad that. The book did eventually address the hypocritical nature of the systems and people working within systems that don't actually function the way they say they do. Otherwise, that would've been very frustrating.
Sara: 33:44
It was, yeah.
Lilly: 33:46
example of how they say society operates this way, but it does not actually.
Sara: 33:51
Yeah. No, you, you did need that that discussion later on. I agree. Absolutely.
Lilly: 33:58
Speaking of, I mean, there's all, all of this conversation around child raising. There is absolutely a lot of gender discussion as well there. I mean, we live in a society, you can't ignore that aspect of it. I kind of kept waiting for. Race to come up and it never really does.
Sara: 34:21
Yeah.
Lilly: 34:21
xenophobia, but not exactly the same thing.
Sara: 34:24
there's definitely some xenophobia. But it kind of makes sense that there's not a discussion of race on Anari specifically because the, the world itself is so harsh that I just don't think that in a society that purports to be flat and equal, you need everyone working together. Like there's not really room for that much racism.
Lilly: 34:51
You could say the same thing about sexism too, then.
Sara: 34:53
You could, and I do think that Anari is less sexist than URAS, for example.
Lilly: 34:59
that's very true. Uras was. I mean, it wasn't that bad because it was being spoken by a comically villainous character, but there was the, like you don't think women can actually do science? Do you like almost word for word on the page?
Sara: 35:16
Yeah. And I think that there's sexism kind of baked into the anari society, but women do have the same jobs. They're not barred from doing any like career. There purports to be equality and, and it's just not entirely successful.
Lilly: 35:39
Yeah. I mean, Lagu picked her topic and it was, one of them was sexism in these societies which was fine. I just wanted to bring up, like I was kind of waiting for it and it never came up at all, but it was interesting. Having the conversation around like property ownership and also how in an ARS women approach it differently just due to being the ones who undergo childbirth, they are affected differently by these structures than someone who's not undergoing childbirth. Now, of course, we get some different opinions on that. Some very gross sexist ones. like how women are what is it? I can't keep saying Patriot. No woman can be a true Ian, which is their, um, like philosophy structure. Ians Adon, Ian.
Sara: 36:40
even though Odo the creator of their yeah, philosophy structure ideal was herself a woman.
Lilly: 36:48
Yeah. And now that was, you know, the novel addressing how people can still be sexist, even in a structure that is more equal than a lot I've seen. To be fair, to be fair to an Aris, they get it almost mostly right.
Sara: 37:04
they get closer than, some societies do. But they're not perfect. There was also one moment that struck me, not because it was the novel making a point, but because it was such a 1970s view of things, which is a comment about how rape is not, not a thing on ans but like very heavily punished.
Lilly: 37:31
It's one of the only things that you can be punished
Sara: 37:34
Yeah. But it was very definitely only men can rape. Only women can be raped. And for a book that feels so progressive. Still in 2026. That was one glaring like, oh, this is a, yeah, this was written in a different time.
Lilly: 37:54
I agree. That was wild.'cause it, it didn't feel like Le Guin was making a comment on that.
Sara: 38:01
No,
Lilly: 38:01
I think it just kind of slipped through Especially So Anari is also entirely accepting of homosexuality. Apparently most adolescents have like experiences with both genders that are found on Anari, and I thought that was neat. I did feel like this book did kind of treat that as like a novelty and didn't really go into, it didn't, it didn't treat homosexual relationships as like an actual thing.
Sara: 38:34
yeah, I mean, like we do have one character who. Remains in a homosexual relationship for, you know, the duration of his. He's not in one relationship for the period
Lilly: 38:47
He is actually gay, not just experimenting as a teenager.
Sara: 38:51
Yeah. But it, but it felt like a lot of those relationships were just teenage experimentation
Lilly: 39:01
Mm-hmm.
Sara: 39:01
with the expectation that when you paired off, it would be in a traditional man, woman relationship.
Lilly: 39:11
And I think that's a lot due to all of the language around, kind of settling down was always a man and a woman.'cause there were some permanent partnerships. Some people were monogamous. It wasn't required or expected. But every monogamous, like permanent relationship was, it was always a man and a woman. Anytime there was language around, oh yeah. And then the couple would go and like. Request to be moved into a different house so that they could live together. It was always a man and a woman. And then we also only ever hear about two men in relationships. That might just be because we were getting the world through sheik's perspective, though.
Sara: 39:53
Maybe, but you're right that, I mean, it would've been nice to see some lesbians.
Lilly: 39:59
Yeah. Basically it felt like a cool concept, and I love that Le Guin included it. It does not feel like she followed through on it very well.
Sara: 40:09
Yeah. I mean, I mean, that, that is one of the ways in which this novel does feel dated. Just the, the handling of it.
Lilly: 40:16
Yeah. I mean, again, neat, neat though. I'm glad that she kind of addressed like sexual freedom in this society.
Sara: 40:24
It, it's a good start. She could have, she could have gone farther,
Lilly: 40:28
Well,
Sara: 40:28
a good start.
Lilly: 40:29
the fundamentals are there, but what that would actually like look like was kind of a forgotten about Chk was kind of the lonely intellectual archetype, which made my, which made me roll my eyes at him a teeny tiny bit.
Sara: 40:45
Oh, he was absolutely the lonely, intellectual type.
Lilly: 40:48
he had strong, not like the other girl's energy, except he's not like the other scientists.
Sara: 40:54
I think that in the hands of a lesser writer, it would've been intolerable. Mm.
Lilly: 41:00
Yeah, I mean, I actually, like, I rolled my eyes at him a little bit, but I was never actually that frustrated with him. I am glad he got shaken, but eventually someone did shake sense into him.
Sara: 41:14
he, he needed, he needed to get rid of some of the naivete, particularly when he's on ura, which is not a a society where, you know, everyone helps each other by default. But I, I felt like his perspective was so integral to the exploration of the world and the themes that Lagu wanted to discuss, that it would've been hard for him to, it would've been hard for the story had he not been, you know, the, the towering lonely intellectual.
Lilly: 41:49
And every time he gets like really wrapped up in his head. He eventually kind of, you know, comes out the other side and goes, that was a mistake,
Sara: 42:01
Yeah,
Lilly: 42:02
appreciated.
Sara: 42:03
he understands that he needs people, even if it's hard for him in, in a society that is so focused on everyone being equal, it's hard for him to have this unequal understanding of physics and, and things,
Lilly: 42:23
And also, I mean, he's an introvert and that's not demonized by the book at all, but it does say even if you do naturally drift towards introversion, you shouldn't isolate yourself. You do still need other people.
Sara: 42:37
Yeah. Like you do generally need to live in a society. And yeah, I, I liked how all of that played out.
Lilly: 42:46
me too. It. I was really dancing around this at the beginning'cause I didn't want to give away too much about the end. But the fact that, you know, shek does find his people, eventually he finds Tacker and his friend Dap, I think was his name.
Sara: 43:06
He's, and he's known DAP since childhood.
Lilly: 43:09
yeah. But he actually becomes like close friends with him later in life and it just gives you the warm and fuzzies. Like even though his relationship with TAVR is not without issue, I mean they get separated for four years right after having a baby. That's horrifying. I was maybe a little more invested in that storyline than I normally would be.
Sara: 43:32
I I was gonna ask, does being pregnant affect read some of these things?
Lilly: 43:40
Well, I thought it was really interesting when talk of her was talking about her experience being pregnant and how she was approaching things differently than she normally would. I was definitely like, yeah, I, I see that, just kind of being more protective of her and hers which is in her society, very frowned upon'cause she's not supposed to have hers. But the, like, just putting your family unit first and putting the baby first in a way that, just instinctively doing that and not like interrogating that in herself at all. I was like, I do, I do. Kind of, I get that. I don't think she needed to be as hard on herself as she was, but in, in that specific conversation she was talking about how she had convinced shek to kind of not sabotage his career, but he, she basically
Sara: 44:34
Well to compromise.
Lilly: 44:35
yeah. Instead of being maybe as supportive or coming up with a different solution or option, it still wasn't a bad solution. And Chek is a good man and a good husband, and just like, you didn't make me do anything. You had the idea and I agreed with it, and I was like, good answer. But I can totally see that, like, yeah, who gives a fuck about your career? You know? oh, and then the idea of. Being separated right after childbirth. I, I guess they'd had a couple weeks together.
Sara: 45:11
It, it didn't sound like it was immediately afterwards. It was maybe like six months afterwards,
Lilly: 45:17
But like,
Sara: 45:18
but still young, you know, not, not a lot of time.
Lilly: 45:22
Nightmare. So I was very emotionally affected by this book and that, and then also other experiences and also just the, like, people do need each other and we should default to helping each other. It gave me the warm and fuzzies.
Sara: 45:38
Yeah, you, you don't need to be pregnant to be emotionally affected by this
Lilly: 45:42
Yeah. And I was really glad at the end was no, like, both sides in it. I'm really glad that Aris was like. There were some things that Oras did genuinely do better than an Aris. I think that makes a more interesting story, but I, in the end, like the book is leading you to, but maybe all societies should be more, a little more like an A.
Sara: 46:09
Yeah, I, I liked that conclusion. I'm glad that that wasn't undercut in any way. No, an Aris isn't perfect also as a, as a world. It quite frankly, kind of sucks.
Lilly: 46:22
Physical setting does sound miserable, but they're doing okay.
Sara: 46:28
this is, they're doing okay. I'm not sure if I would say they're, they're doing fine, but but just the, the ethos of, you know, everyone helps each other and everyone pitches in, and you do live in a society and it's, it's not, you know, no man is an island.
Lilly: 46:48
Yes. And humans are social creatures like we need each other. And we don't all need everyone in the same way. And some people are more like shek and maybe an introvert and likes working on their own, but you still need other people around you.
Sara: 47:07
Yeah. Like the society on an Aris. Could use a little bit of work in accommodating people who are different and who have different ideas and, and don't follow all of, all of the same, you know, common thoughts or whatever common ideas. But
Lilly: 47:27
It's a very close-minded society.
Sara: 47:29
yeah, it's very close-minded and it, it doesn't necessarily take well to disagreements of ideas, but the basic principle of working together and helping each other out unthinkingly like
Lilly: 47:44
That, that should be your default approach to another person.
Sara: 47:48
like that has a lot of value and I really, I really liked that. Yeah.
Lilly: 47:52
and the book exploring how, okay, so they've set up the society. It does have its faults, so they should try to fix it and not just throw out the whole thing. I quite liked that as well.
Sara: 48:07
like, like just because it has faults doesn't mean you have to go the other way and, and turn into a capitalist society.
Lilly: 48:15
The conclusion wasn't, therefore communism is broken.
Sara: 48:20
yeah. Yeah. No, I, I like that as well.
Lilly: 48:23
maybe they just need to appreciate art a little more, even if it doesn't have a value
Sara: 48:29
Yes.
Lilly: 48:30
even. And then they would argue, no, we don't care about value. And I was like, you do though. It's just the way you calculate value is different. It's not with money, it's with survival.
Sara: 48:40
Yeah. Like, like what, what does it bring to the society?
Lilly: 48:44
The over the top example that I loved was DAP saying why do you have an orange blanket? Orange is an unnecessary color. And that shaking sheek because sheek is like all in and ha does not see any errors with an aris for a while.
Sara: 49:04
he, he goes through quite a bit of growth not, not just physically. Obviously he starts this, the story as a young child, but, but emotionally,
Lilly: 49:14
But he always believes in the, the general principle. It's just the reality of an Aris politically that he opens his eyes to. It's, he doesn't go from, yeah. Communism is great to, no, communism is terrible. It's, communism is great and we are doing it perfectly.
Sara: 49:34
Yeah. I mean he, he believes in the ideal of an aris and it takes him a while to realize that an ARIS is not actually living up to that ideal, but he still believes in that ideal and, and wants to work towards it.
Lilly: 49:49
And it is just, for all of the, the stressful moments in this book, the riot on ris, where the military just starts shooting into the not riot, sorry, protestors, the peaceful protest.
Sara: 50:04
That, that I was, when we were talking in the nons spoiler section about things that that hit close to home in February of 2026, that was one of them.
Lilly: 50:16
Yeah, that was hard. And, and this book puts you through the paces. The famine period on Anari was also heartbreaking to read about.
Sara: 50:26
Yeah. I mean, California's not been in famine, but just reading about any drought does kind of set me off a little bit.
Lilly: 50:35
And so to go through those hard times with Chev and then at the end have that very open-ended. But I would say overall optimistic ending,
Sara: 50:48
Yeah.
Lilly: 50:49
It, the book didn't leave me feeling bad, even though there were some moments while I was reading it that were stressful.
Sara: 50:55
Yeah. I, it definitely had stressful moments, but I think I agree that, that I had more hopeful, warm and fuzzies overall.
Lilly: 51:06
Yeah,
Sara: 51:07
And I did, I did end the novel thinking that. Things were going to be okay. And that yes, Sheik would, would face disagreement when he got back home, but that ultimately, you know, they could make an Aris a, a better, more equitable place.
Lilly: 51:29
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Sara: 51:33
come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.
Lilly: 51:44
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Sara: 51:51
We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.
Lilly: 51:57
Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.
Sara: 52:01
Bye.