This Is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone

Episode 224

Release Date: Feb 4, 2026

Your hosts read "This is How You Lose the Time War" by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. Lilly really ought to have known it was a love story. Sara vibed with the whimsy. They also talk about Time Travel Shenanigans, plot to vibe ratios, and the appeal of rereading novellas.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.

Lilly: 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara: 0:10

and I'm Sarah. And today we'll be talking about this is How You Lose the Time, war by Amal El Matar and Max Gladstone.

Lilly: 0:18

but first, our quick five minute introduction, starting with something great that happened recently.

Sara: 0:25

I went to the theater with our aunt. I say our aunt, not as in the royal plural, but because she is the aunt of both of us.

Lilly: 0:35

The universal auntie.

Sara: 0:37

yes. And although we both hated the production that we saw it was still a really lovely evening. We had a great dinner. It's always fun to. Go to the theater with her, even if we don't end up liking what we see. So that's my good thing.

Lilly: 0:52

Oh, that is lovely. I got some gardening in this weekend, which is unusual for February, but the weather's been,

Sara: 1:02

for February.

Lilly: 1:03

it is, I did wear a very big puffy jacket, but it was good. Just some. You know, winter maintenance stuff. We didn't actually plant anything obviously 'cause that would be far too soon. But you know, pulling out the dead tomato plants and things, getting things ready. Yeah, our yard looks much nicer now. I know leaving the dead plants in the garden beds is like good for the soil and stuff, but it's not pretty.

Sara: 1:31

It is not

Lilly: 1:33

So very productive overall.

Sara: 1:35

lovely.

Lilly: 1:36

Or are you drinking for this novel novella

Sara: 1:40

So I think that the right vibe for this novella is red wine.

Lilly: 1:44

Or blue wine? That's not a thing, but it would be funny.

Sara: 1:48

It would be funny. But I was thinking more like because of the, like enemies to lovers vibe of that. That's always a very, and the epistolary nature of it, that, that just feels like red wine to me. But I don't wanna open a bottle, so I am drinking boxed rose instead

Lilly: 2:07

It's almost red. We can count it. Blue would definitely find a way to spin that as red.

Sara: 2:13

Probably.

Lilly: 2:15

I am drinking loose leaf tea, which does appear in the book, although I don't think anyone's gonna write me a love letter in the tea leaves. So I'll try not to be too disappointed.

Sara: 2:26

You never know. You could just be reading them wrong.

Lilly: 2:30

It is possible. I also just brewed it so it's way too hot, so I actually think I will be drinking it after recording and not during, but you know, it's a nice herbal, like peppermint, ginger, chamomile

Sara: 2:44

That sounds really nice.

Lilly: 2:46

It is very good. Have you done any extracurricular reading since we recorded yesterday?

Sara: 2:53

No,

Lilly: 2:54

Yeah.

Sara: 2:54

I have not.

Lilly: 2:56

We've got a, a slammed podcast scheduled this week, so it's been very focused for me at least, I.

Sara: 3:05

yes, all, all podcast reading all the time. And our next book is lengthy is my understanding. So I'm probably not gonna have good answers next time either.

Lilly: 3:16

So let's begin. This is how you lose the time lore. I have been hearing about this novella for years. Very well known.

Sara: 3:25

It's very well known novella, especially because what, last year, the year before there was the the tri gun fan account on Twitter that went viral for tweeting about how much they loved this book. And it, sent it back into the, like the bestseller list. But I was a little worried that I would not enjoy it because it was so hyped. But I found that actually I, I did quite enjoy it. So that yeah. Anything that starts off with an Ozzy Manus reference by Percy bi Shelly is, you've got me, I'm in.

Lilly: 4:03

So this book, I don't know if it suffered from my habit of not looking up anything prior to reading something. I do like going into books blind. I don't think it's like superior, but I do think it's an interesting experience. I definitely thought, well, it does take place during a time war. That's not misleading. I just thought it was going to have more of that and less love story and the fact that I am complaining about the level of love story.

Sara: 4:37

I do think that that's an expectation issue that would have been properly managed. Had you done any like research or if you were terminally online, on social media,

Lilly: 4:50

I mean, not even research, just reading the goddamn back of the book, right? Like I, I will admit that is fully on me for that habit.

Sara: 4:58

yeah.

Lilly: 4:59

gonna change. I'm gonna keep doing it, but.

Sara: 5:02

but, but sometimes you can be disappointed by a book and I think it's valid. And sometimes I think that. Your expectations would've been tempered if you had read the back of the book. And I, in this case, I think you would've known what you were going into and known the, the level of time war versus romance in the story,

Lilly: 5:24

Yeah. Well that's the thing. I quite like romance. This one just didn't do it for me,

Sara: 5:32

which is really interesting because I'm the, I'm the opposite.

Lilly: 5:36

I'm shocked that you liked it as much as you did, not just because you are anti hype, but also it's very schmoopy and that is like the opposite of what you tend to gravitate towards even when you do get into a love story.

Sara: 5:53

It is very schmoopy, but, and there's not a lot of plot. Right. But I think that for me, that works for a romance novel because I don't know the, the all vibes no plot romance works for me in a way that, that. Plot based romance doesn't often.

Lilly: 6:18

Fair enough we did recently read City of All Seasons, which I think was similarly, very vibes based, and that worked for you in a way, it did not work for

Sara: 6:28

Yeah. I just, I really enjoy vibes based books, which is not something that I necessarily had realized about my reading, but I, I think, has been clarified for me recently.

Lilly: 6:40

I. Need something more. I'm okay with a book having a very strong tone, but if that's all that's giving me it, it was hard. This book was very hard. I'm so glad it was short. It could have been half the length. The first 70% of this book is just whimsy.

Sara: 6:59

I don't entirely disagree with you there, but I also don't entirely agree. I think you probably could have cut some of the stuff, but I do think that you get good character development, such as it is through everything that that occurs. And so the relationship would've felt a little more. Choppy.

Lilly: 7:25

That's true. One of my other complaints is I don't buy how into each other they are. And so if it had been shorter, that would've just been worse.

Sara: 7:33

Yeah.

Lilly: 7:34

maybe I was just not in the right mood, but so this book is. I would call it an a. epistolary.

Sara: 7:42

Yeah, I think so. We, I remember there was one episode we did a long time ago now where we were. Discussing what made an epistolary novel, an epistolary novel. Maybe it was Dracula,

Lilly: 7:58

Yeah, and you were saying, 'cause it was diary entries, it wasn't actually letters. That could have been it, but this is letters.

Sara: 8:04

this is definitely Letters.

Lilly: 8:06

so this book alternates between letters written between red and blue. Our main characters who are on opposite sides of this time war. And then in between each letter is a prose piece or, you know, a prose is the only word coming to my head. A non letter.

Sara: 8:28

it's one of, one of our main characters essentially discovering the letter from the other one, and then we get to read the letter that they receive.

Lilly: 8:36

I liked the letters. The in-between I think was what really lost me. I think that that was mostly the writing the, the pros in those sections. It was a little over the top and very whimsical, and I think if there had been something more happening that wouldn't have bothered me, but because that was all I was getting, it was just infuriating.

Sara: 9:02

Yeah. Whereas as we've said before the whimsy works for me, so I liked the combination of whimsical, nothing happens kind of over the top. Pros.

Lilly: 9:16

I, the pros was good. This isn't me. 'cause sometimes I say the pros was too much in a bad way. That is not the case here. I just think I had a lower tolerance for it because that was all I was getting.

Sara: 9:32

yeah, it just, it just, the, the combination or the ratio or, or whatever you wanna say, just didn't work for you.

Lilly: 9:37

It didn't, it

Sara: 9:38

Yeah.

Lilly: 9:39

And so a lot of my notes are just if I have to hear about another fucking sunset. And so that was hard. Now, that's not the entire book. The, the characters are on opposite sides of this war. They do end up falling in love. I don't think that's a spoiler.

Sara: 9:57

I mean, we've already said it's a romance novel which I, I think anyone, anyone who has heard about this book generally, Lily, Lily accepted generally is, is aware that, a romance forms the main plot of it.

Lilly: 10:15

there. Does end up being, I mean, it's still about the romance. I think it's the, the ratio of like, buildup to stuff happening. I don't know I got into it at, I would say like three quarters in, which is really far.

Sara: 10:31

That's, that's pretty late to be getting into a book. Yeah.

Lilly: 10:35

And I hung in there. Again, this, it's a novella. If it was longer, I don't know if I would've managed it. I mean, I would've read it for the podcast regardless, but

Sara: 10:46

I mean, I, I don't want it to have been longer. I would not have enjoyed it if it had been longer.

Lilly: 10:52

I think the, the ratio of relationship buildup to things actually happening would've needed to change. But anyway, regardless.

Sara: 11:04

Yeah,

Lilly: 11:05

It does happen eventually. Hang in there folks.

Sara: 11:09

But no, I agree with you though. I, I think that the the lack of plot only works because it's so short. Like you can't, as much as I like a vibes based story, you can't. Build a novel around that entirely like city of all seasons did have plot. It just also had a lot of vibes. And that, and that plot did help. Make the length of that book work.

Lilly: 11:38

Absolutely. Yeah, we do get some really fun hints and pieces throughout the letters, which is also why I, I enjoyed the letter sections much more than the prose for that first, relationship building section.

Sara: 11:56

We got a lot more world building through the letters.

Lilly: 11:59

So yeah, you hear about how the two different sides are different. One is more plant-based and one is more machine-based. And, and little hints like that. there is some foreshadowing that's happening. I guess that was actually in the pros. Nevermind. But

Sara: 12:18

the foreshadowing is a little bit in both.

Lilly: 12:22

the, the one thing I'm specifically thinking of, well it does eventually come into the letters. And we do learn about the time war and how these two agents are. You know, infiltrating different time streams and there's some parallel universe stuff. The world is neat. I like the level of detail we end up getting, which is very little, which is not to say that I, I disliked it and didn't like hearing about it. I just thought that it was kind of the perfect amount of universe to scaffold what was happening in this story.

Sara: 13:00

it is the right level, I think for this story, specifically,

Lilly: 13:04

There are some really interesting references in the letters too, that are very recognizable. I mean, it's time travel, right? So the fact that these two characters are referencing, I'm gonna say pop culture, that's not quite right, but

Sara: 13:20

contemporary culture.

Lilly: 13:21

blue da ba dee da ba di Is a joke that I think red makes at one point, which is so funny.

Sara: 13:30

It's great. Like I, and I'm sure that there are references that I didn't catch too. But yeah, I, I've really enjoyed noticing the, the references that I did catch. And as I said anything that makes a reference to Ozzy, Manus, I am genetically predisposed to like.

Lilly: 13:47

I dunno if I'd call that. Well, I I did already say not pop culture exactly,

Sara: 13:52

Contemporary culture.

Lilly: 13:53

yeah. And, and our universe, right. So much of this is very, well, I'm gonna keep saying whimsical. I'm gonna use that word a lot in this episode. So then to have it come back to our concrete world was very interesting. And Ozzy Manus is pretentious in a way that it didn't take me out, but the first time that there was a, a more frivolous reference, it took me a second to kind of recalibrate. But ultimately I quite liked that effect.

Sara: 14:25

Yeah, I think that you know, there are some books where contemporary references in a. Sci-fi setting or a fantasy setting would completely throw you out of the story entirely. This wasn't one of them. For me, it, yes, the first reference was a little not jarring, but like I did stop. But because there were so many and they were all in the letters and the, with the way that they were woven in, and with the time traveling universe, hopping nature of, of the story, it just, it ended up feeling really appropriate.

Lilly: 15:04

I, I really liked that and how that was handled. And of course, time travel shenanigans that I think we will talk about probably more in depth in the spoiler section. I, I loved all of that, but again, we don't really get into like, because we hear about the jobs that they're doing, the tasks they're assigned, which includes jumping time streams or whatever, but actual time travel shenanigans, capital. Time travel shenanigans don't really start happening until quite late through the book. And I really liked them. They were really good. It was very cool. it was not enough.

Sara: 15:46

It, it was also very late for you.

Lilly: 15:48

Yeah, it was just, yeah, knowing that it was coming. I think there was a point I got about halfway through, I was at about 50% 'cause I was seeing my page count. Right. I thought to myself, is this the whole thing? Is this what the whole book is going to be? I'm very glad it wasn't, but yeah, it, it, it got there. Knowing that it was coming probably would've helped me. And then also maybe just being in a different mood. Maybe I just was in the wrong mindset, although I think whimsy is often harder for me to get into.

Sara: 16:24

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know necessarily if this was a mood mismatch for you. From how you've been describing it, it seems like it might just have been a book mismatch. but even, even so, like yeah, sometimes a book that you would not normally, like you're in the, the once in a Blue Moon mood for it, but.

Lilly: 16:45

I think that's what I was saying there. I could see a headspace where this would've really worked for me. it's not something that happens often. I don't think it's a bad book. Right? Like it, it's good. It's well written. The prose is over the top, but not so much that it's truly off-putting. And it is beautiful. It just was not enough for me

Sara: 17:10

you just want, you just

Lilly: 17:11

happening. I just wanted more plot just a little bit, the crumb of plot

Sara: 17:17

I mean, we, we get a crumb of plot. You wanted like half a slice of toast, a plot.

Lilly: 17:22

maybe I did discover that. I pronounce the word niche and niche differently. Which, I mean obviously I guess I knew in some part of myself, but it was something that I hadn't like actually thought about very hard. And then there were little statues and little niches in some temple or something. And I thought, oh, I am saying niche in my head, aren't I? Whereas. If there's, you know, a, a product that fills a very specific niche in the market, I would say niche. And I just never noticed that before and I don't know where that came from, but it's true. Those are very different words to me.

Sara: 18:05

I am pretty sure that I pronounce them the same. I think it's all just a niche.

Lilly: 18:12

Interesting.

Sara: 18:13

I had not thought about it until you wrote this bullet point in our notes to document.

Lilly: 18:19

I, it's neither here nor there. I just never realized that. I don't know where that comes from. I don't, yeah. But those two different definitions or uses of that word I pronounced differently, apparently

Sara: 18:33

Yeah, interesting.

Lilly: 18:35

today I learned, or you know, two days ago when I was reading it, so. Who should read this book?

Sara: 18:42

I think you should read this book if you want a vibes based whimsical romance with, uh. Time travel veneer setting.

Lilly: 18:49

Yeah,

Sara: 18:50

I mean, the time travel is a little bit more than a veneer, but it's, it's not heavy on plot.

Lilly: 18:57

It's a veneer for like three quarters of the book.

Sara: 19:01

Yeah. the setting is, is just. Set dressing for a lot of it. Cool. Set dressing neat, set dressing. But it is, it is not a plot heavy novel

Lilly: 19:12

Yeah, the only thing I could think of while I was reading this was a criticism. I remember a high school teacher having. For just early poets in general. Not like one kid's specific poetry but just talking about how everyone goes through a phase where their poetry is just you and I, we do beautiful things together. And that is like this book.

Sara: 19:41

Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I, I would add the caveat that is this book, but good. Because I think early, early poetry, I. Is not always good and I, I think that we both agree that this book was good, even if it wasn't for you. But

Lilly: 19:58

I think if it hadn't looped around to that last quarter, I would be harder on it.

Sara: 20:03

probably, but it does loop around to that last quarter.

Lilly: 20:05

Yeah, it does. It, it, it adds in enough. But yeah. Anyway, this book is the epitome of you and I, we do beautiful things together.

Sara: 20:15

I, I see it. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Solstice.

Lilly: 20:24

That's our zine. Each issue has a different theme that celebrates genre and genre blending in a new way.

Sara: 20:31

PD. F and EPUB versions can be purchased on our website and Patreon, supporters of all levels get free digital copies.

Lilly: 20:38

You can find all of those issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for your support.

Sara: 20:45

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly: 20:53

I did a complete 180 on this book, and I can tell you the exact page number where it happened.

Sara: 20:59

Where does it happen?

Lilly: 21:00

I mean, I, I can't actually, because I have an ebook, so the page number is completely made up, but you know what I mean.

Sara: 21:07

Yes.

Lilly: 21:08

The scene where Commandant, commandant, commandant,

Sara: 21:14

No idea.

Lilly: 21:15

which one.

Sara: 21:17

You pick one, I'll pick the other. It's one of us will be right.

Lilly: 21:21

Alright. Commandant is the leader of Red's faction and. This is the first time we actually see her on the page and she's telling Red, they have discovered that an enemy operative has been tailing her. And this is an opportunity for red to take out who ends up being blue and red, has to play it cool and is freaking the fuck out. And it was so good. That scene was like, the tension was incredible. The the two different. There's a word I'm looking for goals. That's not quite right. Intention. Okay. Whatever. The, the two characters goals are just so, yeah. Motivation. Thank you. The two characters just have such. Well-defined and opposing motivations and the underhandedness that red has to use, that's not quite right, the right word, but she has to cover up the fact that she has fallen in love. Yeah, I mean, yes, that also feels dramatic 'cause it's like not that long of a conversation, but she's double crossing her own side to save the woman that she has fallen in love with and. She's stressing out about it 'cause she doesn't know. Anyway, that whole thing was incredible. I loved it so much. It was like practically at the end of this thing.

Sara: 22:52

I, I agree that that scene was incredible. And I think the, the book really needed it. I didn't feel that it was too late unlike you, but I, I really liked it. It was really good.

Lilly: 23:05

It saved this book for me, honestly. And then that that introduces the conflict of, now Red is helping Murder Blue and trying to warn blue about it. It that. The last part of this book I really enjoyed. I think the beginning just didn't have enough tension for me. I mean, yeah, they're on opposite sides, but they're just kind of flirting and bantering with each other and there's nothing going on. I.

Sara: 23:34

There, there isn't a lot of tension. I agree. Which I mean, again, I don't mind, but I can understand why it bothered you.

Lilly: 23:43

But using the, this last part as a counterpoint, it's still very whimsical, very vibes based. The prose is still very over the top. They're still writing very schmoopy love letters to each other, even schmier, because now it's like I'm forced to murder my love. So dramatic. And yet I was absolutely engaged 100%. So I, I just wish that there had been more of this.

Sara: 24:14

I think that I needed the beginning to care about the relationship enough for the tension here to actually hit.

Lilly: 24:26

Oh yeah. I don't think that this plot point should have happened earlier in the book. I just wish there had been something going on underneath them, falling in love. It could have been

Sara: 24:37

um,

Lilly: 24:37

different.

Sara: 24:38

I, I, I disagree because I don't care about conflict in romance novels, and so I'm glad that there wasn't any.

Lilly: 24:51

Well, I, I would've been more engaged and this book would've been more for me.

Sara: 24:55

Yeah.

Lilly: 24:57

It the ratio of,

Sara: 24:58

difference in. Reader styles

Lilly: 25:01

It is. And I think if the book had been a smaller percentage of this, it would have genuinely become a bad book. It needed this at

Sara: 25:11

it. Did I? Yes, I agree. I, I entirely agree. I, I think that it did need this conflict at the end.

Lilly: 25:17

would've personally preferred more. But I mean, having, having more would've just been to please me and not to be a quote unquote better book or something.

Sara: 25:27

Yeah, I am personally glad that there wasn't more, but again, that's just because it would've been less of a book for me, not because I think it would've been a, a worse book if there had been more.

Lilly: 25:39

See that's the thing, Sarah, everyone should write books. For me personally, I also, now this is antithesis to everything I've complained about. Not really, but They fall so deeply in love and all they have really done is trade a handful of letters.

Sara: 25:57

It is quite quick.

Lilly: 25:59

They are really into each other and it's like, guys you've never even met.

Sara: 26:06

mean, I, and I am kind of. Assuming or extrapolating that there have been more letters. We know that they have been, working against each other up and down the, the time stream for a long time by the point that this story starts. So they are somewhat familiar with each other as opponents. But yeah, I, I was kind of feeling like we just get a snippet of the letters they've been exchanging, not that we have gotten the entirety of their relationship, because that's just bonkers, that they've fall in love so fast.

Lilly: 26:43

I also have to tell myself that otherwise it's very hard to take seriously. It would've been nice if there had been any in-person although I think that would've ruined the longing aspect, which. I can appreciate, although it doesn't necessarily work for me

Sara: 27:01

Yeah, I, I don't think that it, that meeting in person would've worked for this story specifically. I would read Fanfiction about the meeting in person afterwards, but.

Lilly: 27:14

afterwards. Interesting. I, I'm thinking just from a, if I'm to buy into how much they love each other. I would've liked to see more on the page, but that's okay. And the book also kind of acknowledges how much of their relationship is just completely fabricated. Now, if they're both making it up, that is just a relationship. So it works. But, red is kind of dealing with this crisis after she has. Well murdered Blue, although time travel. And there's a a point where she asks, did she really know Blue at all? And my note is, no, you don't actually. So I, appreciated that the, the book acknowledges how much of their relationship is not made up. I mean, if two people care about each other, they care about each other, all feelings are made up, but they don't actually know each other that well, and they have filled in a lot of gaps with things that they have invented.

Sara: 28:17

Yeah, I mean, and, I do think that you are much more of a pragmatist when it comes to relationships than many people are. To be fair, I, I think you have less tolerance for some of the frivolities of romance because you're like I'm just gonna say what I mean, and. Talk to the other person.

Lilly: 28:40

That's true. And I'm gonna take that as a compliment.

Sara: 28:43

It, no, it, it's a compliment. I mean,

Lilly: 28:45

Yeah, no, I'm giving you shit. But you're right. For someone who enjoys romance novels and romance plot lines, it's it is the human interaction that I enjoy and there's very little of that in this book.

Sara: 29:00

yeah, I, I, I think that there are just. Aspects of this relationship as it developed that are not to your taste, just Yeah.

Lilly: 29:11

Well, another thing that I know about myself as a reader is that I love character and we learn very little about these women except that they love each other.

Sara: 29:24

We learn a lot of superficial stuff. Yeah.

Lilly: 29:27

And that's, yeah. So that, I think that also was probably working against me personally, why I'm, I'm personally victimized by this book. And I talked, you know, the plot doesn't come until the end. Okay. The beginning is they're developing relationship, but I don't learn really anything about them as people and. That just made it hard for me to grab onto

Sara: 29:52

I mean, that's fair.

Lilly: 29:54

Yeah. And so that's the, like when I say there, ah, there was too much romance, like no, there are romance storylines that I could have lived with. Right. It's just not the way it was done here. It just, they just picked the one way that romance doesn't work for me.

Sara: 30:11

in contrast, they picked the one way that works for me. So.

Lilly: 30:16

good. Yeah. You are allowed books that you like. I was so worried. Maybe a lot of my problems with the first half, more than half this book was because I didn't trust the authors. I didn't know anything about them. I didn't know anything about the story. And so I was reading this going, like I said earlier, oh God, is this just love letters forever. And then we had the seeker who was kind of just mysteriously sprinkled into. The end of the pros sections and pretty early on I was like, are we ever gonna find out who this, like what this deal is? And I was not confident that we would.

Sara: 31:03

I was pretty confident that we would I mean, because that's a big thing to not find out. And so I think my base assumption, even if I don't know anything of the authors. While I have other stuff by El Matar and Gladstone on my TPR, I've not actually read them. But I, I think my base assumption of, of any author is if they're gonna put this, this big old mystery front and center in the book,

Lilly: 31:33

Surely they

Sara: 31:34

surely they're, they're going to say something like, because if they, if they don't, that is a huge glaring omission.

Lilly: 31:44

I was probably just being grumpy, to be perfectly honest.

Sara: 31:48

Well, if you're, if you're already not vibing with the book, then you know you're less, maybe less generous too.

Lilly: 31:56

yeah. And there was so much that wasn't explained and. I could handle some of it. Like I said, we get minor world building notes and that was okay. I was okay with a lot of that not being explained, but so much of it was just, the, the tea leaves that magically turn into a letter. How, how did red know which tea she would order and like just. There's a lot, there's a lot going on that's never explained and that's okay 'cause it's magic and not the point. But that meant when I

Sara: 32:34

of hand wave. Yeah.

Lilly: 32:35

Yeah. So when we got to this element, I was like, this better not be another one of those. And it wasn't, it wasn't, we did find out who the seeker was. I absolutely loved that. And because we do find out eventually all of the whimsical foreshadowing is fine. I just, while I was going through this, didn't trust that it would go somewhere.

Sara: 32:55

Yeah. Whereas I did trust that it would go somewhere, but if it hadn't, I would've been very upset.

Lilly: 33:04

Yeah.

Sara: 33:05

you know, 'cause it, it was a big old thing that needed to be addressed. Unlike some of the details of how they know where to, like what seal to, to put the letter into or whatever. Like that I could just hand wave away.

Lilly: 33:24

Or even how they are communicating through flavor.

Sara: 33:28

Like, like that. Okay. These are, kind of a two alien communities essentially. There's a lot that's not explained. I don't need it to be explained. I'm going on vibes here. That was the kind of thing that I could just coast on the vibes.

Lilly: 33:43

Yeah, and to be fair, like I could not explain how a microwave works, just as an example of something that I find very mundane, but is kind of magic if you think about it. So I'm okay with that. Like I said, I was okay with world building details, not being on the page, it just meant that was just something I could have latched onto. There's still a lot that I didn't have to latch onto.

Sara: 34:11

Yeah.

Lilly: 34:12

Something else really wonderful. Again, in the last like five pages of the book,

Sara: 34:18

It was more than the last five pages, but it was quite late. I will agree with you there.

Lilly: 34:23

it, it felt. Way back there, actually this was introduced earlier, but they're the circular nature of their relationship, which actually does help explain why they are so attached to each other. We find out over the course of this novel that they have been a part or like. They go back in time because time travel obviously and become a part of each other's very formative childhood events in both intentional and unintentional ways. And so I could totally see like that playing a big part of they. Don't really interact over the course of this letter writing, but then go back in time and have interacted before they started writing letters. So that's bonkers in a very fun way.

Sara: 35:16

I, yeah, I absolutely loved. That not necessarily reveal that, that discovery, that process of seeing them go, back and create these relationships or, be part of these experiences earlier that we have heard about. Or that we, learn about beforehand, like, not how red or blue was a part of it, but we do hear about, these formative experiences in earlier letters and, and then to see how they have interacted with it. But it was, it was cool, it was neat. It like, it was a good use of time. Travel as a device.

Lilly: 35:57

especially in a romance. It, it was just kind of mind blowing. Thinking about, and the, the two events, I would call them both. Somewhat traumatic the two that we end up seeing we see Blue interacting with red as a child much earlier on, which was pretty cool. And then red goes back in time in order to ultimately save Blue's life. After Red Murders blue, she goes back in time to when Blue was a child. It's time travel. It's crazy. That was very cool. I really loved that. I do think I need, you need the first part of the book in order to justify the rest of it, or like, not justify, but you have to believe these characters have fallen in love in order for the end of it to work at all.

Sara: 36:46

you need, you need that character buildup. You do.

Lilly: 36:49

think I would like this a lot more on a reread.

Sara: 36:52

Mm,

Lilly: 36:53

I think maybe is is just the ultimate answer.

Sara: 36:56

that's possible. I think in, the copious amounts of time you have, after Baby Fiction Fan is born, you should reread it and then let us know

Lilly: 37:06

Yes.

Sara: 37:07

because you'll have so much free time.

Lilly: 37:09

I mean, I think all you're supposed to do with babies is read out loud to them, so he's gonna get a lot of weird books read out loud to him.

Sara: 37:17

I mean, great. We're starting him early. He'll be the third cohost of the podcast.

Lilly: 37:23

After the pugs and the cats, of course

Sara: 37:26

yeah, the, the third human cohost.

Lilly: 37:28

okay. Acceptable. But I, no, I do really think this is a book. I would like more on reread, partially because I know it's going somewhere now and. That could have either been me being grumpy or not knowing anything about this book going into it. Both are my fault.

Sara: 37:47

I, I do think that this is one of those books that it does help to have some expectations set about it to start with, but also maybe that's just me. I like, I like to know as much about a book as possible when I go in normally. So that, that's also just a personal preference, but

Lilly: 38:05

But also because of the time travel and the cyclical nature of, not cyclical, but

Sara: 38:12

circular.

Lilly: 38:13

yeah, circular like interrogatory, relationship timeline that they have. I think rereading it would be very cool. I'm sure there was a lot more than just the seeker scattered in that I would pick up on, on a reread that I think would be very enjoyable.

Sara: 38:31

Yeah. I, I do think that this is a book that has high reread factor.

Lilly: 38:36

It's short, so it's not like it's a huge time commitment to do so.

Sara: 38:39

It is a novella. It is not a book that I wish was any longer. I think it's the right length. So it is, it is easy to read in an evening or, you know, two afternoons or whatever.

Lilly: 38:53

Yeah, I think that's my ultimate I rarely say I disliked this book so much. I need to read it again.

Sara: 39:01

It's true. It, it does sound like this is one of those very rare books where you disliked it but still want to read it.

Lilly: 39:10

I didn't enjoy the process of reading it, which is. Slightly different from saying I disliked it.

Sara: 39:17

It's fair.

Lilly: 39:18

Which is why I think on Reread, I would enjoy the process a lot more

Sara: 39:26

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly: 39:29

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara: 39:40

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly: 39:48

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara: 39:54

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.