The Kin Enigma by Darrel Miller

Episode 226

Release Date: Feb 18, 2026

Your hosts read the Kin Enigma by Darrel Miller, a hard scifi take on werewolves fit for Crichton fans. They discuss the realism of the novel, complex character motivations, and what they would have liked to see more (and less) of in the story.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.

Lilly: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara: 0:09

And I'm Sarah, and today we will be talking about The Kin Enigma by Darrell Miller, which was one of the books suggested to us by our supporters on Patreon.

Lilly: 0:20

but before we get into that, our quick five minute introduction, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara: 0:26

I made a really good curry last night for dinner.

Lilly: 0:29

Ooh, what style?

Sara: 0:30

It was a Thai curry, coconut curry.

Lilly: 0:35

Mail it to me.

Sara: 0:38

I'll send you the recipe. It's really easy,

Lilly: 0:40

Nice. Yeah, that sounds great.

Sara: 0:42

like you do need a number of spices, but they were all things that I had in my spice drawer. And besides that, like, it was pretty simple.

Lilly: 0:51

My good thing is also food related. I got breakfast in bed this morning.

Sara: 0:56

Nice.

Lilly: 0:57

It was very nice. I felt very fancy. What are you drinking today?

Sara: 1:02

I am drinking some hot chocolate because it is wet and rainy out.

Lilly: 1:08

Mm. It's actually sunny here, but it's cold, so I feel the vibe. This to me is a coffee book and I can't really explain, well, I can explain why, although I don't think it's on the page, but both like scientists delving into a study and like some kind of. I don't know the, the late night study group meeting of the minds is very coffee energy to me,

Sara: 1:34

I get that. I get that. It's definitely not a hot chocolate book except that it's cold outside right now. Although I could make the argument that because it takes place in like. The forest. When I go backpacking with my father, I drink hot chocolate, and so that reminds me of backpacking with my father.

Lilly: 1:58

Yeah, in the Sierra Nevadas too. So you're actually quite familiar with where this book takes place.

Sara: 2:05

Or the, the kind of area I, I backpack much, farther south.

Lilly: 2:09

Yeah. Oh, it's the same mountain range. It's fine. Also the mercenaries, and we'll, we'll go into what these factions mean in a second, but there's also quite a bit of mercenaries, you know, being rough and tumble in the environment. And that also is a very coffee vibe to me, although in a different way. All of that is to say I finished my coffee before we started recording, so I'm actually drinking tea, but I was drinking coffee while I read the book and that was quite fitting.

Sara: 2:39

I think that's appropriate.

Lilly: 2:41

Have you read anything good lately? We have been recording on a marathon, so I my answer's no.

Sara: 2:47

I've read some good fanfic, but in terms of published work that I have paid for, that is, that is for sale. No

Lilly: 2:57

I mean, fanfic counts.

Sara: 2:59

fantic counts. Yeah.

Lilly: 3:01

I guess along those lines, I've been reading a lot of nonfiction about babies. All right. The Kin Enigma. This is definitely a science fiction book, emphasis on the science.

Sara: 3:14

There's a lot of science and it's very clear that Miller knows his science. Unfortunately my eyes did glaze over just a little bit when some of the science things were were being described because there's a lot of science and I don't have a science degree.

Lilly: 3:30

Yeah, I, it's, I'm torn between, that wasn't, I mean, it wasn't for me. I like, I just didn't understand it. But I did like that aspect of the book because

Sara: 3:43

I liked how authentic it felt like it, it felt like the science was real. And I think that they were doing real science. I don't know. I mean, werewolves are not a thing. So their conclusions, uh, are, are, and their subject matter, uh, is not real. but it really did add that layer of authenticity to to the story, which I, I did quite like, even if, you know, it was sometimes a little much for me.

Lilly: 4:10

Yeah, absolutely. And I bet there is a reader out there because it's not like it was described in a totally opaque way. I mean, most of the time. If there was a conversation around what the very specific blood cells were doing, it was then explained in a more conversational tone. So it, it was accessible. I just personally didn't need all of it. I liked that it was there, and then some of it could have been implied, but I think there's probably a different reader who would've loved having all of it there.

Sara: 4:45

Yeah, it, I wouldn't have minded it being used a little bit more moderately,

Lilly: 4:51

Yeah.

Sara: 4:52

but I like, like you, I liked that it was there.

Lilly: 4:56

Mm-hmm. So this book is, I would say primarily about a group of scientists who are working with a man who he's not exactly werewolf. That's the. You know, pop culture comparison, but he's basic. He's a werewolf. The the kin are werewolves and they're studying him, but there's also conflict around that because some people don't want this to happen, and some people have their own ulterior motives. So there's also a lot of that. That's the mercenary aspect that we were talking about, right? There's the, the security force and, and some other things going along. Around the edges,

Sara: 5:39

And it's not that he's being studied by some shadowy government and he's trying to get away like he is an active participant in this. Just to be clear,

Lilly: 5:49

he organized the study, which I thought, so I agreed when that first came up because we're introduced in this book of the, the scientists kind of coming together and, and forming this team and talking about their subject, and I was like, Ooh, human experimentation. It's a little uncomfortable.

Sara: 6:09

I, I was a little worried, but I really liked that. He was the one who had organized it because he is trying to, or his, his faction of the kin are trying to figure out a way to reveal themselves to like the rest of the world.

Lilly: 6:28

which absolutely changes the, the tone of that situation. Right. It, it suddenly, it's not human experimentation anymore. Now it's collaborative learning about yourself and working towards those goals,

Sara: 6:40

It's not nefarious.

Lilly: 6:41

Right. And because of that, I mean this, the science crew and then the sort of cascading events around that, it felt so much like Michael Creon to me. granted, I've only read one book and it was Sphere and I wasn't a huge fan, but. Like the, the way that you had the scientists and they were studying an anomaly and they're in this remote location and things start kind of going wrong around them. It, it just felt, it reminded me so much of Creighton.

Sara: 7:15

I can see the comparison. I'm not sure I would've come there on my own. I don't disagree with you now that, now that you've explained it, I liked the, the kin enigma much better than I liked Sphere. I I hated sphere.

Lilly: 7:28

I also agree. So I think Sphere had better pacing, but I liked the characters in Kin Enigma so much more.

Sara: 7:37

yes, yes, I agree with that.

Lilly: 7:39

Which made it actually enjoyable to read. So I use the sphere comparison to say if you, if you liked Sphere or Creighton, this could probably be a book for you.

Sara: 7:52

It's that same kind of heavy science vibe.

Lilly: 7:55

yeah. Oh, there's also a lot of historical references in this book. I only spot checked one of them. The. Escobar Rebellion in 1929 does indeed line up with the details given in this book. So I assume they're all true. I didn't sit there and look up every single one,

Sara: 8:17

Well, and, and Miller includes an appendix at the end of all of the things that he researched that he thought were interesting.

Lilly: 8:24

oh, so I, I did start looking through that and got, you know, about three chapters worth of. Foot and I guess they're not footnotes'cause they're not footnoted from the text.

Sara: 8:35

Yeah, they're, they're not footnotes. They're, they're just notes.

Lilly: 8:38

yeah. But I didn't get far enough to get to the, the other things. But that also I think makes it very anchored and concrete in a way.

Sara: 8:50

It felt like a really well researched novel that could actually take place today.

Lilly: 8:56

Absolutely. Oh, speaking of today, when do you think this took place?

Sara: 9:01

That's a good question.

Lilly: 9:03

I was trying to, because it's, there's not like a year given at any point, I don't think. And the characters have cell phones.

Sara: 9:11

It's, it's kind of nebulous modern day which I think makes it a longer lasting book, right? Because it's not specifically tied to any one date. I think you could read it today. I think you could have read it in 2018 and still felt like it was the present day.

Lilly: 9:32

Oh, I was thinking. Even earlier than that.

Sara: 9:34

I mean, yes, I, but that's, that's my point. Like I, I think that it,

Lilly: 9:38

iPod, shuffles or anything. Right. There's, there's nothing that an like specifies. It's the only reason why I ask is because the characters bring up references and are referencing events that made me think that they were, well, today I would say they are older, which makes me think that this was maybe more like nineties.

Sara: 10:00

I wouldn't necessarily have said nineties. Yeah, I, I would've said some kind of nebulous contemporary time. I did have, uh. Some occasional issues with the pros, like for the most part I thought it was okay. It veered a little bit towards the purple at times, but not as much as that first page had me worried about the, the first page. The first page was a little purple, but but it, it evened out after that. But there would be like a scene that was going on and I'd be really invested in what was happening. And then like Miller would kind of stop abruptly and summarize the rest of the events. and I wanted the scene to continue on. Like I wanted to learn about the, about what was going on naturally rather, rather than get that kind of abrupt summary.

Lilly: 10:52

Yeah, it felt very inconsistent, which I, I think, loops back to the pacing that I was referencing because it felt like the story really hit its stride during the action sequences. we got some background scenes of the mercenaries doing, you know, mercenary things. I don't wanna spoil too much. Off in the jungle before the events of this book, and you could really tell that the author was into those moments and you know, taking his time to explore those and really detail them and walk you through everything that's going on. And then you would get to a scene, that's supposed to be the background for one of the doctors, and it was just kind of like their resume.

Sara: 11:42

it did feel like some of the more expository scenes got truncated. Like you'd, get a little bit of that exposition and then you'd get the, the Spark Notes version.

Lilly: 11:55

Yeah. Which is funny because there is so much of the science in here, but that was clearly like not the fun part for, I don't know. It was just interesting that that mix of here's some very, like, thoughtful science and then we're gonna talk about guns and explosions for a minute. I really loved though different plot lines that were happening in this book, and I quite liked bouncing around between them that kept it moving faster the beginning starts with what I'm going to call the historical kin plot line, which is where we get glimpses of how the kin or werewolves have sort of interacted with human society across millennia. It starts in the Ice Age and. We eventually move forward in time. I would've liked that. I think a little bit, honestly, more, I wanted more of the historical kin. I, that was one of my favorite parts.

Sara: 12:54

I wanted more of them too. Yeah, I, I a hundred percent agree.

Lilly: 12:58

So more of those scenes, and then I wanted like a more gradual increase because it kind of jumps from the Ice age to the crusades. I think it would've been cool to kind of have a more gradual, I, this kind of just goes back to I wanted more of it.

Sara: 13:16

Yeah, I, I think this is just, we, we wanted more of the historical plot line.

Lilly: 13:22

I also think it would've been neat if some of the plot lines had been interwoven differently as it as it is in the novel. They're kind of all. Pros, right? It's, the story is just jumping around following different people during different time periods. But I, I think if they had been included with like, here's a news article about a conflict in Columbia around a drug deal, instead of actually showing us that scene or here's an excerpt of the like scientific journal that one of the scientists is working on during their study. Instead of a, here's a conversation between two scientists where they tell you and explain all of the science jargon. I think that would have kept it a little more varied. And then also personally, that would've helped me because I don't know if you experienced this, but we're jumping around from some very like logical, considered. Almost objective prose. And then, you know, a page later, we are in the head of a mercenary who in some cases ends up being an antagonist at the end, and you're suddenly like, oh, whoa, this person's very racist.

Sara: 14:41

I,

Lilly: 14:42

Which is fine for the character, but when you go from the prose as very like, thoughtful and considered, it took me a second to go. Is the pros telling me that this is supposed to be like taken the same way because yikes.

Sara: 14:57

I, I did have that same trouble. some of the perspective changes were a little jarring. And I agree that we didn't necessarily need to see. Everything in in the prose, like some of the background details, like, you know, this drug deal in Columbia, I think would've been just, just as effective hearing about it as seeing it. And yeah, it, you know, articles or whatever interspersed would've, would've kept it more varied, would've broken it up a little bit and, and maybe. Sped up the pacing just a little bit.

Lilly: 15:32

It also would've helped me with those perspective shifts. I think it would've signaled that like, Hey, this is a different character now, or some, you know it, I would've been expecting it more and I wouldn't have had to take that moment to catch up.

Sara: 15:44

Yeah.

Lilly: 15:45

Something that this novel does really well is it explores kind of the implications of werewolves or kin as they're called in the book from just about every different sociological angle that you can think of. There is no stone left unturned.

Sara: 16:03

Yeah, I, I really enjoyed how. Thoughtful that aspect was like obviously we get the scientific angle. How are the kin just physically different from homo sapiens? And there's a lot of time spent on that. That's because that's what the scientists are studying in this, in this book. But we also get a little bit of discussion of, you know. Our werewolves, people from a, from a Catholic perspective and some of the religious characters struggle with the revelation that the kin, you know, exist.

Lilly: 16:41

But some of the religious characters are very gung-ho about it and are like, this is proof that God is real. So I, I loved that you got both very different reactions. Just as, just from a like, humanity perspective, the, the variety of human experience. Right. You, you see all of it,

Sara: 17:00

Yeah. It, it made sense that you would get a bunch of different perspectives and that people would, come to it from the same starting point, but end up in different, you know, in different places. And I did really like that.

Lilly: 17:12

It does also get mentioned. I was wondering if this would be addressed in, in the text of the book itself because the kin are visually different from humans. I mean, not to the extent that you would think that's a different species, but they are shorter and darker of skin, and I wondered if. Miller was going to address like the racism aspect.'cause you, you can't really ignore that, right? If you have a whole group of people that have darker skin and are being treated differently, like you have to reference that at least a little bit, right?

Sara: 17:47

Yeah, and it does come up a little bit. Honestly, I would've liked it to be addressed more. I, I don't necessarily think that it was addressed enough, but it does come up a little bit.

Lilly: 17:57

It is at least acknowledged, which I needed. I was surprised with how far through the book it was one of the flashbacks actually to the kin in Alabama. Maybe a hundred years or so before the events of this book, and I was like, okay, someone said it. Thank goodness.

Sara: 18:18

But it does take a while to get there.

Lilly: 18:21

Yes. There's also of course, the economic perspective. Some people want to exploit the kin and benefit from that, which, you know, there would absolutely be a human being doing that. If this came up,

Sara: 18:36

Absolutely. And we don't see a ton of it, but esprit does wonder. Espree being the, kin who is being studied. he does wonder like whether or not the kin will be sought after for their blood and the various properties that they can, that their blood contains. Because they can, you know, their blood can be used for healing diseases or whatever. If, that's eventually a thing. They're not sure it will be, but you know, he, he does wonder about what that means for them.

Lilly: 19:08

Yeah, if they are resistant to disease and the scientists are finding the exact mechanism in their blood that causes that, does that mean they're going to be, you know, hunted down and farmed for it?

Sara: 19:20

Yeah.

Lilly: 19:21

does bring us to the kin themselves, have different sides, right? Espree wants, wants to undergo this study in order to help reveal the kin to society at large. But not everyone agrees with that. And I really also liked sort of having those two sides there. Basically, there's two sides to everything in this book. Like there is no one like this character has the one true opinion on this thing. Even all the way down to the mercenaries who for the most part are not actually that invested at all and are really just here coincidentally, but still end up being very influential on the outcome of this story, which is so, I'm gonna say genuine. It's always the, the factors. Outside of your control that end up really affecting events, right?

Sara: 20:18

Yeah

Lilly: 20:18

it would be great if the only people who affected things were people really invested in it,

Sara: 20:23

not how life works.

Lilly: 20:25

Sometimes it's a coincidence which is not comforting of a thought, but very realistic. Which I think helped again, keep this story just feeling like this is absolutely how it would play out if this was a thing that happened.

Sara: 20:42

I mean, it felt really grounded. Like it, it didn't, yes, it's a science fiction novel, but it felt like it could take place in the real world.

Lilly: 20:52

Yeah. It's not um, space magic sci-fi.

Sara: 20:56

It's not space magic sci-fi. Definitely not.

Lilly: 20:59

Well, we've danced around the mercenaries quite a bit and I think that will be a much fuller conversation once we get into the spoiler section. So first, Sarah, who should read this book?

Sara: 21:10

I think you should read this book if you do really enjoy Crichton. If, you want a very science-based, like grounded science fiction novel, and also if you like werewolves, but you want a different view of them because this is, these are not your traditional werewolves. This is not your traditional werewolf story,

Lilly: 21:29

No, not at all, which is a really fun angle to take. So, yeah, I if you like werewolves and are ready for something different, if you're looking for the classic werewolf, this is not that

Sara: 21:40

right?.This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by sost.

Lilly: 21:48

That's our zine. Each issue has a different theme that celebrates genre and genre blending in a new way.

Sara: 21:54

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Lilly: 22:01

You can find all of the issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for your support.

Sara: 22:08

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Okay. Talking about the mercenaries. Now, this would not have solved all of the conflict in the book. There would, there would still have been conflict, but I did wonder why Mack, who was the, the lead scientist he, he was the, like the director of what was going on or Roko, who was the legal consultant like why did they not do. Better due diligence on their security force. I, I get that, like caustic, who was the, the mercenary in charge of security, mostly hired like good people, but Caustic was only there. Caustic was a bad dude. He was only there because he was on the run from drug lords in Columbia because a drug deal had, that he was overseeing had gone wrong. Why did they not know that?

Lilly: 23:10

Well, I don't think that would come up on a classic background check.

Sara: 23:14

Yeah, but surely, I mean, surely they did some kind of background check on him to see that he was like dishonorably discharged and all of that.

Lilly: 23:23

I suspect, well, the book didn't go into this, which maybe if it had taken a moment, we wouldn't be talking about it, but I suspect that's an issue with the secrecy, right? When you are being so locked down, A deception, flourishes in shadow or something. There's some quote, I'm sure I butchered it, but because they were trying to keep things so under wraps, they had to go with the the shady mercenary instead of a reasonable like security company that would've maybe asked questions.

Sara: 24:01

Maybe, I mean, I, I needed a little bit of an explanation like for Trevor who was a big name scientist who was kind of dismissed from his, his previous post because he was harassing sexually harassing his female students. Like they at least acknowledge that. Mac wasn't paying attention and so didn't know about that charge, and so I could, I could overlook that, but I needed something for caustic.

Lilly: 24:31

I mean, it would've solved a lot of problems.

Sara: 24:34

It would've solved some problems. It wouldn't have solved all of the problems in the book

Lilly: 24:39

Well, I think the other thing too is caustic starts out on their, well, on their side, they're his employer and he's doing the right thing. A right thing is maybe dramatic, but he is, you know, honoring that employment.

Sara: 24:52

he's not double crossing them initially.

Lilly: 24:54

No, and he doesn't go into it intending to double across them. But because he is kind of a shady guy, there are aspects of his past that are exploitable and so he ends up being a weak link and flipped on that on that front. What bothered me in that kind of plot arc was that several doctors have really uncomfortable run-ins with the security team, and none of them talk to each other about it or report it to Mac.

Sara: 25:25

no, Mac Mack does say that he'd gotten reports of, several of the doctors having bad issues with Maxim, I think was, was one of the guards and, and some of the other guards. But he just doesn't, like, his response is to talk to caustic and so nothing happens there.

Lilly: 25:46

Yeah, and then caustics responses to bring in more shady dudes.

Sara: 25:50

Yeah. Like I, I do think that they, at some point they needed better oversight of what was going on there.

Lilly: 25:58

I am happy to blame that on scientists having tunnel vision and just Mac is a scientist and not a manager.

Sara: 26:07

It is possible, but like he made the very smart decision to bring in an expert on isolation. Chris, he could have brought in hr, he could have hired, he could have hired someone for hr. Like

Lilly: 26:23

That's why he's not a good manager.

Sara: 26:25

If you, if you're going to be isolating for a year, you probably do want someone who can, who can help you handle any interpersonal conflicts that come up.

Lilly: 26:35

Yeah. Now, something that needs to be said is that for all of the names in this book, every time someone got brought up, I did generally know which side they were on. Which is kind of incredible because I am historically not a fan of 10,000 characters in a, in a novel,

Sara: 26:56

You do tend to have a some issues with lots of names. But yeah, I, I feel like all of the characters in this were pretty distinct. And it was, it was easy to keep track of who was who.

Lilly: 27:07

and I didn't necessarily remember like the backstory that was connected with every single character. But I was like, oh, T-Bone, that's one of Caustics guys. Great. Which is incredible. Just like for me as a reader, I'm not usually that good with names. you brought up Chris earlier. She is, I would say one of, well, one of the main scientists. There aren't a ton of scientists, but I would still say that some of them get more. Page time, main character energy than others.

Sara: 27:41

She definitely has more main character energy than some of the other scientists. Even if this is by and large a, a mostly ensemble cast.

Lilly: 27:51

But out of the ensemble cast, she's one of the major scientist characters. Maybe that's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Because not all of the scientists are major despite their small number. But she is the. Psychologist that is brought along and originally intended to make sure no one breaks from being isolated for a year during this project. But she ends up working with Esprit, our main character, the Kin, who has started this whole study and they end up bonding and actually start a relationship through the book, which. I, I won't say that the relationship came out of nowhere. I think it was actually telegraphed pretty well, but it felt like it escalated quickly. In the back half of the book.

Sara: 28:38

It felt kind of abrupt for me. Like I could see that it was coming, but I wanted more buildup both before they like, acknowledged their feelings for each other. And then afterwards, like you said, in the back half of the book when, when things escalate I just wanted a, a little bit more time spent on the development of their relationship.

Lilly: 29:04

Yeah, and, well, this is probably my biases as a romance, uh, romantic book reader, but there are physical relationship escalates. They sleep together. That was fine. I was like, yeah you're isolated. You found someone you connect with to have sex. Fine. But then the morning after, they immediately started exchanging, I love views. And that's where I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Sara: 29:32

Yeah.

Lilly: 29:32

You guys have known each other for like maybe six months.

Sara: 29:36

it, it just, it felt a little abrupt.

Lilly: 29:38

Yeah. I just wanted to clarify. It's the, it was the emotional aspect that felt abrupt versus like two adults sleeping together. When you have not a lot of options, that's fine.

Sara: 29:49

Yes. Yes.

Lilly: 29:51

But then afterwards it felt like their relationship was managed quite well while it's happening sort of in the background of the plot,'cause it's not really the focus of this story, although, as Esprit does say. The, the point of this is to see how kin and others or homo sapiens can interact. So ending up in a relationship with a human is a great outcome, which I thought was very funny,

Sara: 30:18

That that was a good line. I did like that.

Lilly: 30:21

but it's still not really the main point of the novel. And so you continue to get like bits and pieces of, of their. Closeness of their intimacy. While there are some very dramatic action scenes in the last like quarter, and I thought that was like, it kept reminding you like, also by the way, they've fallen in love without either forgetting it or giving it too much spotlight when that clearly wasn't the point.

Sara: 30:48

Yeah, I thought it was done well. Again, I, I would've liked a little bit more development. I, I think it would've benefited from a little bit more spotlight, but, for the most part, I thought it was good.

Lilly: 30:59

Yeah, I guess I think what I'm saying is I wanted more leading up to it, but once, like they sort of had their, their on page scene the rest of the novel saying I didn't forget about them, but also they're not, the point was like the perfect level I thought of, of attention.

Sara: 31:15

Yeah.

Lilly: 31:17

They're not the only relationship that we see on the page. We also follow the family, which is the antagonistic group of kin that want to stay secret during the events of this, or, I mean, yeah, during the events of this novel, but period. So they're trying to stop the study. They end up besieging the, isolated. Scientific compound. But before then, as we're sort of learning about them, we learned that they are kind of a, what would you say? Polyamory doesn't even feel like quite the right word. Free love.

Sara: 31:53

Yeah, I, I don't think Polly is the right description of them, but

Lilly: 31:58

They're not monogamous in within that like small cultural subset. And when that's first brought up, I was like, oh, neat. We're seeing a different, you know, societal structure. And then when we actually see that in practice, we get Magnus, the, the head of this group absolutely coercing women into sleeping with him. And I was like, no.

Sara: 32:22

He is incredibly manipulative.

Lilly: 32:24

It was awful, which, I mean, he's the bad guy, so Yeah.

Sara: 32:28

yeah, like it's, it's not healthy relationships that he's fostering. Which is, which is fine because he's the bad guy, but it. Was a little unfortunate too.

Lilly: 32:40

It, it made that cultural subset instead of like, oh, neat, a different society structure. It was, oh no, this is just a cult leader exploiting the people who follow him.

Sara: 32:50

Yeah.

Lilly: 32:51

But then at the very end we see some of the people from his faction who have kind of deflected, we get a relationship between three of the people who had originally been on his side, realize that he is the absolute worst and leave, and they do seem to be genuinely polyamorous in a way that I would not call Magnus in his relationships.

Sara: 33:20

Yeah, and I wish we had more of'em. I mean, I, I would've liked to spend more time with the family in general, I think, not Magnus specifically, but with some of the other kin in that group. Just to get maybe a, a more balanced view of like that group of characters the, defection of Spider and Farah at the end isn't sudden like, you know, it's coming. Magnus tried to kill spider or have spider killed. Like you're not surprised that he, he then

Lilly: 33:56

Spider holds a grudge. Yeah.

Sara: 33:59

but I, I would've liked to see a little bit more just of that buildup too.

Lilly: 34:04

I really loved spider's plot line and would've liked to see. Maybe not more of him necessarily, but I think this is just part of my, like I loved all of the different excerpts that we got and wish that it was more like, more,

Sara: 34:20

Yeah, I mean, like,

Lilly: 34:21

less action scenes, more. Well, this is just me in a nutshell, as a reader, less action scenes, more character development.

Sara: 34:29

I, I just would've liked to see more, I think more of the characters around Spider. Like more, more Farrah, more Cece, just so that it felt a little bit more balanced.

Lilly: 34:40

Which is interesting because we don't see any of Esprees group of kin. I mean, we see Espree and there's a very short scene at the beginning. Two of his buddies come to help. But that's about it. So really the family and that whole situation, I'm gonna say, and it's not a good situation just because Magnus is the worst, is like the most modern kin that we see in the book. So I'd say we actually need more. Either more of the historical kin, that's just me wanting more of the historical kin or more of like what's happening with the people that esprit left behind. We don't know anything about them.

Sara: 35:22

Oh, see, I'm not viewing it as as balanced in terms of getting more of the kin necessarily. Because I, you're right, we don't see much of like esprees faction. I think that's taken up by the scientists, basically. Like they get

Lilly: 35:38

His faction, he's part of the scientist crew. Yeah,

Sara: 35:40

Yeah. But, but just in terms of showing the, we get a lot of time in the, the science faction and in a sprees faction of seeing the different perspectives of, like the scientists and, and everyone who is working in that compound. And so you, you do really get to see that they are not a monolith and that they all have their different motivations for, for being in there. And you get that a little bit with Magnus group, but I would've liked to get more of that. That's what I mean by balance.

Lilly: 36:15

Yeah, I mean. I enjoyed Spider quite a bit, so I was content, but you're right, you bring up though a great point. We've talked about the different factions. The scientists who are trying to study the kin so that they may reveal themselves to humanity, Magnus and the family who are kin that want to stay secret and therefore stop this. Study and, and murder everybody. There are the mercenaries who are originally hired to protect the scientists and end up double crossing them due to money and various manipulations from Magnus. And then there's a group of mercenaries that show up and end up helping the scientists. Basically I, I would say that's like, yeah, the four major factions that end up in the final conflict.

Sara: 37:02

I, yeah, I would agree.

Lilly: 37:04

Not a single one of them is like of one mind. They're all very complex, which I really, really loved. Especially considering how thoughtful this book is in other ways around like the implications of other species, humanoid species, and so having that. I'm gonna say humanity and how humans are messy and have other, you know, so many different motivations and opinions going on. Any group of more than four people, there is someone who disagrees with the group that they're with, and I thought that was so well done and really added another layer of complexity to this story.

Sara: 37:49

You do get that, that messiness of just humanity. Yeah, absolutely.

Lilly: 37:56

and I'm including the kin in that. But you know, even on the scientist side, you have Trevor, the doctor who wants to cash in on this discovery.

Sara: 38:07

I mean, he's, he's, a jerk.

Lilly: 38:09

He is, yeah,

Sara: 38:09

Yeah.

Lilly: 38:10

he's an antagonist even though he's on the scientist's team. And, and tries to betray them, although it doesn't totally work out for him. Just like in the family on Magnus faction of the Kin, he's not a good leader in that, you know, he's selfish and cruel. So of course he ends up alienating people on his side and they end up leaving. That was probably my favorite moment in the book. And then they came back and helped the scientists just'cause they were like, this is kind of shitty.

Sara: 38:45

I did really like them.

Lilly: 38:47

that's really nice. They have no reason. I mean, I could see them. Feeling partially responsible, but it's clearly Magnus fault. And by leaving and deflecting from Magnus side, they are helping the scientists.

Sara: 39:02

I mean, spider goes back because he wants revenge on Magnus and also to find Farah and Cece, and then they're just kind of like. They happen upon some of the scientists fighting some of the other kin and are like, okay, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna protect you'cause these guys are now our enemy and then they peace out.

Lilly: 39:25

Yeah, but they could have pieced out immediately, is what I'm saying. And they do get hurt in that fight. Like that was unnecessary. I, it's the, the book doesn't spend a lot of time on this, but I think there is a, a little, a little tiny germ of the inherent goodness in people. when someone. With no reason to get involved. Stumbles across an obvious injustice. They do step in, which was nice.

Sara: 39:51

Yeah.

Lilly: 39:52

And then of course, caustic and his mercenaries who. Have no reason to support anyone except for money and personal interests, except a couple of his mercenaries are like, this is fucked up. And they do end up helping the scientists and the, the scientist mercenaries.

Sara: 40:12

I don't think that, I don't think that jj and Andrea, were mercenaries, they were hired by caustic as part of the security force.

Lilly: 40:22

They're fighting for money. That's a mercenary. I'm being, I'm being very simplistic, but that's.

Sara: 40:27

Oh, okay. I mean, but, but I do think it's worth differentiating because they were not like caustics band of mercenaries separate from the people he hires as security guards. Like they are really bad dudes fighting for money, whereas security guards are basically there to provide security and just like. Their paycheck. I do think there's a difference.

Lilly: 40:54

There. I mean there is, yes. I thought JJ did also have a history though.'cause he kind of goes Rambo a little bit and I don't think a regular security guard would just do that.

Sara: 41:04

I, they, they do talk a little bit about J'S history and he, but he's not, he's not caustic level,

Lilly: 41:11

yeah.

Sara: 41:12

like, like he has a troubled past, but, but he, I wouldn't call him a mercenary.

Lilly: 41:18

The other group of mercenaries were led by Drake, and I remember him and them being introduced earlier in the book. I cannot for the life of me remember why they show up and get involved.

Sara: 41:34

It's because friend is the. One who originally provides this. Like he, he was the one who hired Caustic to be head of security or something. And he's like, I haven't heard anything from this place. Would you go and check on it since you're going to Seattle? Anyway? And so Drake does him a favor.

Lilly: 41:57

I did, I did remember that, like he was asked to go check it out, but I, I didn't remember that it was from the person who had originally hired Caustic.

Sara: 42:04

I, I believe that it's from the person who was, who had originally hired Caustic. I could be wrong about that, but I'm, I'm pretty sure,

Lilly: 42:11

That makes sense. I just, in, in that final conflict when kind of everything has gone to shit, it's, it's just a full on firefight for days between various factions of kin and scientists and mercenaries and Drake and his team show up and I'm like, I'm so glad you're here. Why? But I remembered who he was. Like I remembered his introductory scene and like the character background we got. And even, like I said, his, I'm not, not his followers, but the other people on his faction, like I remembered Booker and how he was a great sniper and everything. So clearly the characters stuck in my mind. It was just maybe a little convenient that they showed up when they did.

Sara: 42:55

Convenient. Yes. But there is an explanation of they've been specifically asked to go check up on. The compound. So I, I didn't mind that the timing was, was good. That's just, that's just plot.

Lilly: 43:08

Yeah, no, and they don't come out of left field like we see them kind of making their way towards Weed, California, which also funniest location

Sara: 43:19

I mean, I'm sure that has something to do with why the story is set there.

Lilly: 43:24

And it was fun, like having just driven down to you in the Bay Area, like we did drive through weed to get there. That is also the only reason you go to weed is to drive between Northern California and Seattle. And it has a gorgeous view of Mount Shasta. So like that is nice, but. Being kind of familiar with the area and you know, they're talking about reding and how that, anyway, it was just especially fun. This is like the second Bay area book we've read is Weed Bay Area, Northern California book.

Sara: 43:57

Weed is not Bay

Lilly: 43:59

No, I, I rescinded that statement. I just associate it because you only go there when you're driving through to get to the Bay Area.

Sara: 44:08

yeah. But we, we have done a lot of Northern California stories, and by that I mean like two

Lilly: 44:15

of wildly different genres.

Sara: 44:17

wildly different genres. Very, very different stories. But it's fun to read books that are set in a place you recognize.

Lilly: 44:26

It really is. It adds another layer of, I don't know, connection. I'm automatically more invested,

Sara: 44:33

Yeah.

Lilly: 44:34

which is maybe, I know that's probably human nature to be more invested in a place that, you know.

Sara: 44:40

I think it's just human nature,

Lilly: 44:41

Yeah.

Sara: 44:46

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly: 44:50

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara: 45:01

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly: 45:08

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara: 45:14

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.

Lilly: 45:18

Bye.