Audition for the Fox by Martin Cahill
- Fiction Fans
- 2 days ago
- 25 min read
Episode 218
Release Date: Dec 10, 2025
Your hosts read Audition for the Fox, Martin Cahill's fable-esque novel from Tachyon Publications. They discuss what exactly left them with the fable vibe, whether or not all of the characters were fursonas (spoiler: they weren't, Lilly just misread), and how a little bit of moral complexity goes a long way.
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:04
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,
Sara: 0:09
And I am Sarah, and today we'll be talking about Audition for The Fox by Martin Cahill.
Lilly: 0:15
but first we have our quick five minute introduction. Sarah, what is something great that happened recently?
Sara: 0:21
I am back into my very nerdy project to make it easier to query our reading data for the podcast. The two tiny terrors, my pugs are also present in this episode and they are helping me with that project. You can hear their growls of agreement.
Lilly: 0:42
it's really unfair'cause I can see them kind of tumble across the screen every once in a while. And the listeners cannot,
Sara: 0:50
They like to reenact WWE E matches.
Lilly: 0:53
Well, my good thing is that I got a bag of apples from the, it's not a farmer's market and it's not a grocery store. The, the produce place near my house and they're so good. Apples are good,
Sara: 1:09
What kind of apples are they?
Lilly: 1:11
honey. Crisp.
Sara: 1:12
Oh, nice.
Lilly: 1:13
Yeah. And there's been, you know, a bruised one here or there, but just like topnotch, I've been eating a lot of apples.
Sara: 1:20
Apples are good.
Lilly: 1:21
Yeah. What are you drinking tonight?
Sara: 1:24
I have some green tea,
Lilly: 1:27
I am drinking apple cider.
Sara: 1:30
presumably not. Home pressed from the apples that you bought though.
Lilly: 1:34
No, I just realized as I was saying it how OneNote my answers are.
Sara: 1:39
Look, you're going for a theme. That's fine.
Lilly: 1:42
Yeah, I was too impatient to actually heat it up all the way, so it's more like lukewarm apple cider, but I'll take it.
Sara: 1:50
Still good.
Lilly: 1:52
And have you read anything good recently? Extracurricular.
Sara: 1:56
I finished reading Tia. We finished reading Tia, I should say.
Lilly: 2:00
That was also my answer.
Sara: 2:02
Yes. But I have not done any additional reading.
Lilly: 2:06
No, we took too long. One of the pieces that we wanted to accept got swooped by another publication.
Sara: 2:14
I, I mean, entirely your own fault,
Lilly: 2:17
It's actually good that we have had consequences for taking so long.
Sara: 2:21
probably
Lilly: 2:22
So now the pain of that piece that we can't publish might spur us, spur, spur us to be a little more timely next time.
Sara: 2:32
We'll see if we learn anything. I.
Lilly: 2:37
Yeah. Fair enough. So audition for the Fox. It takes place in a world. I guess one of the first things I was struck by was how accessible the Gods seem to be. Although then I think maybe it's just because the main character is special.
Sara: 2:56
I don't think so because, so it sounds like the gods there are 99 of them, 99 pillars plus one extra who's kind of like excommunicated.
Lilly: 3:09
Batty, if you will.
Sara: 3:11
Yes, the, the baddie and the gods, they do roam around on the earth. I think we see a lot of them, partially because our heroine is related to one of them. Distantly, I think her, her great-grandfather was bison. But it sounds like that is a pretty common thing. Like she is in a temple that's all about these God blooded people.
Lilly: 3:37
I, I liked how, maybe commonplace isn't the right word, but it is a fun vibe to have the gods of creation be so close to mortals. It's something that you don't see in all storytelling, although this did feel very fable like. And so I think that fits along with that theme.
Sara: 4:01
Yes, I agree on both counts. It is nice and it, it does seem like the gods have a closer relationship to people than just sleeping with them. Right. Like, like all of, all of the God blooded which I think was the term used. They have to have a patron God before they can like go out into the world basically. So they do form a relationship with. A God. That's, that's not a romantic one. That's just like a, you know, friends.
Lilly: 4:37
Counterpoint, though it did seem like it's just the God blooded who are. So close with the gods because we see normal people witness a God later and they're like fucking blown away.
Sara: 4:51
I think that the God blooded do have a close relationship to the gods than normal people do. But also you don't get to be God blooded without the God having had, you know, a relationship, a romantic relationship with, with someone normal. So.
Lilly: 5:10
But yeah, something about just the whole storytelling structure. Well, so it's not a mystery. There are actual fables kind of threaded throughout this novella. I think there are five sections and at the end of each section, give or take, there is just. A story, that's not necessarily part of the main plot.
Sara: 5:30
we get some of the not necessarily creation myths although I think we do get a creation myth. Yeah. But we get some of the fables about the fox who is one of the main gods in this book. Not necessarily a main God in the, in the Pantheon but. I mean, you, you can guess from the title
Lilly: 5:51
Yeah, I was gonna say they're a main character. I think that's fair.
Sara: 5:55
Yeah. And so we get fables about them.
Lilly: 5:58
I do kind of wish. That, that kind of mythology was woven in more instead of just kind of chunked at us.
Sara: 6:09
Yeah. It, we get a little bit of. That mythology in the actual storyline. But I think the bulk of it comes from these interludes, and it does sometimes feel not necessarily disjointed, but it, it takes you out of the main action of the story a little bit.
Lilly: 6:32
And I think we got plenty woven into the, to the main story. Like I, the additional mythology that we got from those like fable excerpts didn't really add anything for me.
Sara: 6:47
I would disagree.
Lilly: 6:49
You can't,'cause I said for me.
Sara: 6:51
Well, okay. Okay. I think there, there are two that definitely added things for me. There's one about the fox and the spider, which I think adds context for some things in the book. Or specifically one thing in the book. And then the story about, fox and the wolf.
Lilly: 7:14
The fox and the wolf was the only one, and even that was told in the story, but the reader had to wait until the excerpts to actually hear it.
Sara: 7:23
Yeah.
Lilly: 7:24
So could have just been in the story. But that aspect plus. Some of the other quirks of the narrative really made this novella feel like a prologue. it felt like Cahill had this entire world and was like, okay, how can I communicate as much about this world as possible in this novella? There are so many place names. That I, I didn't need, they didn't need to be in there.
Sara: 7:57
I like getting that kind of additional information. No, it's not necessary, but it does for me. It does feel like it fleshes out the world in a way that I particularly enjoy.
Lilly: 8:11
It can, it's just when it's a list of place names that don't have anything to do with what's going on. I'm just like. I don't know anything about these places. They're never gonna come back up. I'm never gonna remember them. So this was just a paragraph of nothing,
Sara: 8:27
We don't really get that though.
Lilly: 8:29
a little bit, a couple times.
Sara: 8:32
Well, okay. I mean, if, if we do, it was not something that I particularly felt,
Lilly: 8:36
do you agree though, that it felt like the author definitely had this entire world. Or has this entire world in his head. I was shocked that this was not like part one of an eight part series.
Sara: 8:51
Yes. I mean, I, I think Cahill does have an idea of the world.
Lilly: 8:57
He knows every single pillar, what animal they are, what they stand for, and what their actual name is. And I think all 99 of them are crammed in this book somewhere.
Sara: 9:09
I actually loved all of the different pillars and their names. And even though, yes, you're right, like they don't show up, it was still interesting to me.
Lilly: 9:18
we only needed like half of them.
Sara: 9:21
No, I was glad we got all of'em.
Lilly: 9:23
I. So Nessie, our main character, is trying to find a, a patron god and her plot line, her audition for the fox, if you will. I was interested in, and so every time it flashed away, or not even the fables, but yeah, every time the narrative itself got distracted with some of these extraneous details, I was like, what? Her life's in danger. This isn't ratcheting up the tension. This is just making me like fall out of the the zone. That's not quite right. You know what I mean?
Sara: 10:00
I do know what you mean. And, and again, I only really felt like that about the, the interludes, which I did like to be clear I liked the interludes, but they did also take me out of what was happening.
Lilly: 10:13
Our main character needed a good shake, but got a good shake metaphorically.
Sara: 10:20
I was really glad to see her growth throughout the story because in the beginning I found her a little frustrating. Like she, tried to get the patronage of what, 90, 93 other gods, 96 other gods. Yeah. And hasn't succeeded. So she's kind of At her last opportunity, except she could just wait another couple of years and then try again.
Lilly: 10:46
Yeah, the the stakes there were a little confusing, right? Because Nessie has approached this as, there's only three gods left for me to try. But then we find out from. I think the character is authoritative Ren,
Sara: 11:02
Yes.
Lilly: 11:03
Kind of her mentor slash bff
Sara: 11:06
I mean, they are the same age.
Lilly: 11:08
Yeah. But he clearly is like, knows
Sara: 11:11
yeah. He has his life together.
Lilly: 11:14
That's still a mentor relationship. We find out that yeah, she can, she can retry gods, so it's not like she has crossed 96 off the list.
Sara: 11:25
She is making this into a bigger deal than it is to be fair. She's also young, but she's 21. I mean, it's not like she's 14.
Lilly: 11:34
Yeah. That's not
Sara: 11:35
she should, know better.
Lilly: 11:36
Yeah.
Sara: 11:37
Which is, which is why I found her a little frustrating in the beginning because I was like, Nancy, girl, you are putting all of this stress on yourself. You, you do not need to worry about this.
Lilly: 11:48
Well, and she's acting like it's so critical. But then we find out that the reason why she failed some of the auditions is because she didn't even memorize the prayer for the God that she was auditioning for. So she clearly didn't try that hard, especially when later she says, I'm a really good student. It's like, are you?
Sara: 12:10
Yeah,
Lilly: 12:11
you a really good student?
Sara: 12:13
She, she brings a lot of this on herself in the very beginning, but she does once, once she is properly in her audition for the Fox she does show a lot of growth and so I rapidly changed my opinion about her. But in the beginning I was like, oh, please don't be like this the whole time.
Lilly: 12:31
I do wonder if there was supposed to be some subtext of she failed the auditions because it wasn't meant to be. Was there some cosmic meddling happening? I don't think that's on the page, but
Sara: 12:46
I mean, I think the implication is kind of like you, you get to where you're supposed to be eventually if you keep working at it. But I don't. I necessarily think that the fox was meddling in her auditions.
Lilly: 13:01
not the fox. Just cosmically I Okay. If she failed some of the early auditions for a reason, as simple as did not memorize the thing she was supposed to recite. So I, I interpret that as she's an absolute dingus or, maybe the universe interfered because she belonged with the fox, and so they had to like, not they, I'm not, I'm not saying that this is one of the other deities, right? Just like, I don't know. Someone at the end says, you, because is it a spoiler? The audition for the fox is a success. That doesn't feel like a spoiler.
Sara: 13:42
I mean, I think technically it is, but it doesn't feel like a spoiler.
Lilly: 13:46
The good guys win. and someone says like, you found your right place. Kind of, I don't know, implying that the other ones were the wrong place. I'm reaching, I'm reaching to try to be more sympathetic to Nessie.
Sara: 14:00
yeah, I mean, the, the other ones can be the wrong place without cosmic intervention. I, I do think that she was just a little bit of a dingus, In the, in the start. And part of that is it's clear that she suffers from pretty extreme anxiety. she has some mental health things that do make it more difficult for her. And you know, it, it can be like, you know something and then you get put on the spot and it all goes out of your head. That's happened to me plenty of times. So I, so I do sympathize with that.
Lilly: 14:31
Yeah, but then like you get unlimited retries. I don't know. She's acting like it's life or death.
Sara: 14:38
you do have to wait. I mean, it, it did sound like she had to wait quite a number of years before she could retry, but it's not life or death. It's just she wants to leave the temple and she can't leave the temple until she's got a patron.
Lilly: 14:50
Yeah, and, and her, I'm in jail because I can't leave this temple.'cause if I leave, people will try to murder me. That was very 21.
Sara: 15:00
Yes.
Lilly: 15:01
then it's like, okay, if it's that important to you, put a little more effort in.
Sara: 15:06
Yeah,
Lilly: 15:07
Which I suppose is also very 21.
Sara: 15:09
that is also very 21. I mean, she is very much a 21-year-old.
Lilly: 15:14
Yeah. But I loved the poetic justice of, alright kid, if you're gonna treat this like life or death, I'll put you in a life or death situation. Which is basically what the fox does.
Sara: 15:26
it felt very appropriate.
Lilly: 15:28
Yeah. I mean, not. Right away. But as we saw more, like as we picked up more details of Nessie, right? Like she doesn't drop the, I'm a very good student line until much farther in, which made me go, are you kidding me? But stuff like that made me appreciate the fox more and more.
Sara: 15:49
Yeah, I've really enjoyed the character of the Fox. I didn't think that we were going to see much of them in the start, but we actually see quite a bit of them.
Lilly: 15:58
I mean, they're, I'd say they're one of the main characters.
Sara: 16:00
yeah, I, I agree. Which again, I wasn't expecting. I think, I think just from the setup of, They're like a potential patron, God, and you're doing their test. I thought it would be a more remote kind of thing.
Lilly: 16:15
But they totally meddle. And that's, that's kind of like what we were talking about earlier with how close the gods are to mortals, right?
Sara: 16:23
Yeah.
Lilly: 16:24
They're there and they're meddling, even if not all the mortals, know. This is entirely on me, but I did have to like actively reframe some of the characters in my mind because I definitely thought they were all animals for a little bit at first. Okay. Hear me out. The only character we get fully described physically at the beginning is the fox who is. Fursona shaped, anthropomorphic person, Fox,
Sara: 16:58
we know stuff about Nessie and authoritative wr,
Lilly: 17:01
not a lot.
Sara: 17:03
we know Nessie has, has dark black hair, long black hair,
Lilly: 17:06
Mm-hmm.
Sara: 17:07
dark skin. Those don't necessarily, well, I guess they don't, they don't not say. Animal shaped, I suppose
Lilly: 17:14
And then when she gets thrown into her audition. We meet the bad guys who are all wolfhounds. I was like, oh, those guys are wolf shaped. I, I could tell that that wasn't true. Like I, the book didn't make me act. I was,
Sara: 17:33
this is a you thing, not a, not a book
Lilly: 17:35
no, yeah, it was, I was reading this going, I think the picture I have in my head is drastically incorrect. And then eventually when I don't remember what the, the paragraph was, I was like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna have to, aggressively reimagine this.
Sara: 17:54
Yeah, I'm trying to. I'm trying to see. I thought that they described the people,
Lilly: 18:01
by 17% because I read an ebook. we find out that the gods, Either keep their animal form or assume an animal guy, or, sorry, the opposite of what I just said. They either keep their animal form or assume a human guise. And so I was like, okay, that's concrete proof that not everyone is animal shaped, that.
Sara: 18:24
Yeah, I'm, I'm reading, so I read an actual physical copy and on page 13 when Nessie I don't think it's a, a spoiler to say that Nessie gets sent back to the past as part of her audition because it happens on like page one basically. But Nessie gets sent back to the past in a particularly brutal point in time for her country when they're being invaded and, and conquered. And she talks about, the girl in front of her and her saffron robes and the color of her hair and the shape of her belt and things like that. And I guess I just, yeah, I just read that as her being human. But it doesn't not say she's.
Lilly: 19:08
exactly. No, everyone is definitely human. And that was just me. I don't know. I had some preconceived notions in my head and then nothing told me that that was incorrect, so I just kind of rolled with it knowing I was doing something wrong until a couple pages farther than that. But I was like, Hmm,
Sara: 19:29
Yeah, that, that is incorrect.
Lilly: 19:32
but yet animals can wear robes.
Sara: 19:34
It's true. And they could also be described as having long, dark hair and, and belts.
Lilly: 19:41
Yeah,
Sara: 19:42
And wrists.
Lilly: 19:44
I think I got wires crossed with Stardust. That's not the name of the book.
Sara: 19:49
Oh. Um, by Amy Ogden, um, Starfall
Lilly: 19:54
Star fallen
Sara: 19:55
starstruck, starstruck.
Lilly: 19:57
is in there somewhere. Which is also not entirely animal people, but our main, most of our main characters are,
Sara: 20:06
In that book, it is more animal shaped than I think this book. Yes. So I can, I can see, I can see the wires crossed.
Lilly: 20:16
I mean, there's no excuse this book did nothing to make me think that. It just also did nothing to make me go. That's impossible until 17% in. Well, Sarah, who should read this book?
Sara: 20:29
I think you should read this book If you are looking for a short fable about a character who goes through a lot of good personal growth. I mean, that's, that's not the point of the book her personal growth necessarily, but she does go through a lot of it in a, in a very satisfactory, satisfying way.
Lilly: 20:50
Yeah. And there's a lot of, good conquering evil themes
Sara: 20:55
Yes.
Lilly: 20:56
that were comforting.
Sara: 20:59
It's nice to see people stand up to tyranny.
Lilly: 21:02
Yeah. with a heavy dose of if we stick together, we can prevail.
Sara: 21:09
Yes.
Lilly: 21:10
Well, shall we talk about how this book ends in the spoiler section?
Sara: 21:15
Let's go for it. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.
Lilly: 21:23
That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.
Sara: 21:30
Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine solstice.
Lilly: 21:38
You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.
Sara: 21:45
The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.
Lilly: 21:52
So why was UN there?
Sara: 21:54
I mean, I, I think that she is there mostly so that Nessie has a friend.
Lilly: 22:00
And that's nice, but then like at the very end, not the very end actually, in the sort of the, not the main like climax of the book, but the conflict right before that, when. Nessie is trying to defeat the ogre, but then it turns out the ogre is actually just te a sad kid who is, has been attached to this cursed armor. And Nessie is going to figure out how to break that curse and calls in help from the trickster. And then also Una is there. Why is she there? I,
Sara: 22:36
I, I mean, I liked Una. But I agree that she didn't necessarily add a lot to this story.
Lilly: 22:43
I mean, I mean even beyond that, like I don't remember her showing up. Nessie sneaks in through the window and then they're talking about what to do next, and suddenly Una is like, I can't help you. And I was like, no shit. And also, yeah, why are you here?
Sara: 22:59
no. There, there is, there is a line about how she like gets Una.
Lilly: 23:04
She just, okay. Just shows up.
Sara: 23:07
She doesn't, she doesn't just magically show up. Like there,
Lilly: 23:11
like it
Sara: 23:12
there is, there, there is a sequence of events that leads to her being there that is on page.
Lilly: 23:17
because I scrolled a couple of pages earlier and there's nothing about her, nothing about her, nothing about her, and then suddenly she pipes in with I can't help. And it's like, yeah, who thought you could,
Sara: 23:30
no. Let me see if I can find it.
Lilly: 23:34
okay. I found her being really shocked that the fox shows up. she is established as being there earlier.
Sara: 23:41
Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that's what I was thinking about.
Lilly: 23:46
Oh, it happens over a chapter break. You know why? Yeah. It happens over a chapter break, and so I had to read the fable in between and I completely lost the actual plot.
Sara: 23:57
Yeah.
Lilly: 23:58
That is what happened.
Sara: 24:00
Yeah.
Lilly: 24:01
But it definitely felt like Uno was just there because you have to have three characters overcome evil. It can't just be two, otherwise the two were gonna kiss.
Sara: 24:11
A little bit.
Lilly: 24:13
Yeah.
Sara: 24:13
A little bit.
Lilly: 24:15
And there's no kissing in this book, which I think was the right choice.
Sara: 24:18
I agree. I mean there's, there's talk about Una flirting with someone not any of the main characters. So like there are dalliances going on, but
Lilly: 24:28
Not on, not in the plot though.
Sara: 24:29
not in the plot. And I, yeah, I think that was the right choice.
Lilly: 24:33
Yeah. It, it felt like UNO was a, a specific clock block between Taylor and Nessie, and I didn't feel like that was necessary. Not that I didn't think that they shouldn't get together. There's too many negatives in that sentence. Not that I thought they should get together. But that I thought that there was no danger of that.
Sara: 24:53
Yeah, I can. I can see that. I can see that.
Lilly: 24:56
Taylor was maybe not a fascinating character, but a very critical character to this book. He is kind of the head of the wolfhounds, except we find out not really.
Sara: 25:09
He is, he's kind of like the figurehead of the wolfhounds. So he is in this armor, which is big and scary, and he is very violent and aggressive towards the captives. Everyone who has been taken from. Their homes and forced to work in this. I guess originally it was like a, a logging factory, but it's turned into a prison camp. Yeah. And so he's kind of like the figurehead. But no one has seen who is inside, so no one really knows. Is there a person inside? Is it just Magic Armor? And then it turns out that yeah, there is a person inside. And even though he is from the invading country Zeidan, was that it?
Lilly: 25:56
starts with a z. I know that much.
Sara: 25:59
Zein, that was it. He is also a victim of their very aggressive, like war culture. He just wants to be a, a poet. He doesn't write very good poetry, but he just wants to be a poet.
Lilly: 26:15
But I really liked that inclusion of not all of the, the zein slash wolfhounds are, it's like it's not a monolith, right? They aren't all one note, let's do a big fight and hurt a lot of people. Because that, I mean, it didn't actually bother me that much because it's so fable like. That kind of black and white works okay. But as soon as we got te I was like, oh, this is so much better.
Sara: 26:46
Well, and I, I do think that it's nice to acknowledge that oppressive societies can also victimize people within them
Lilly: 26:56
Yeah.
Sara: 26:56
in different ways. But yeah, it's, it's not like everyone in the Oppressive society is defacto also an oppressor.
Lilly: 27:05
Right. Even though he was, but not by choice.
Sara: 27:09
he was, but not by choice. And when he has the opportunity to get out of his situation, he gets out and he, he is better. he doesn't continue the, the cycle of violence. He doesn't continue perpetrating these atrocities.
Lilly: 27:24
So that was really well done. I, I really liked that inclusion and complication, but not really complication, just, complexity. There we go. We also find out eventually why the fox is standing up against the wolf. So the wolf is the 100th pillar who has been kicked out and is of course the patron god of the invading country Z wolf landia.
Sara: 27:56
Wolf.
Lilly: 27:58
And we don't really know much except that all of the other gods aren't really going to interfere. They did kick the wolf out, so they're not like on the wolf side, but the fox says that they are the only one who is actively working against him. And then we find out why.
Sara: 28:17
the, the other gods don't. Think that the wolf should be invading or noia, which is the country that the zemen are invading. But also they kind of exist at all times. So they know that, they get kicked out. the zemen get kicked out eventually, so why do they need to do anything? Whereas the fox takes a much more active viewpoint.
Lilly: 28:40
Yeah, the talk around time travel and circular cause and effect I thought was really interesting.
Sara: 28:46
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Lilly: 28:48
I kind of love that it didn't answer any questions. I.
Sara: 28:52
I mean if they do say that there would be paradoxes that would be. A pain to sort out if Nessie died in the past before she was born, but not impossible to sort out just a pain, just a hassle.
Lilly: 29:07
and Nessie has that conversation near the very beginning, when she's first given her task to spark a rebellion in this camp, basically. And she says, well. I come from 300 years in the future, I know that it happens. So it's guaranteed to happen, right? And the fox is like, well, yes and no.
Sara: 29:26
Clearly she needs to watch more. Doctor, who
Lilly: 29:29
Yeah,
Sara: 29:30
I was primed for, for the temporal shenanigans in this, in this book, because of a doctor who I feel like
Lilly: 29:38
you almost said type me, Y me.
Sara: 29:40
I got close.
Lilly: 29:41
it. But that was fun. I really liked acknowledging those contradictions and then going, it's fine.
Sara: 29:50
Yeah. And I, I think the fable like vibe of this book meant that we, it really was fine. We, like, we didn't need more than, more than an, an acknowledgement.
Lilly: 30:00
absolutely.
Sara: 30:01
But Back to what you were saying about the fox and their reasons for actively working against the wolF
Lilly: 30:09
We do eventually find out though why the fox is taking this so personally, and it's a very good reason, but also way harsh.
Sara: 30:20
Yeah. It and harsh in the, in the sense of. It was a much bigger, thing than I was expecting. Not harsh as in the foxes, overreacting or
Lilly: 30:34
Yeah, no, I absolutely, well, all of the fables that we get leading up to that are like. Oh, the spider bragged about how hard a worker she is, and, oh, the horse was mean to his followers. So the fox taught him a lesson and like very much about the pride of the gods and not actual like human consequences for their actions.
Sara: 31:02
Yeah, I mean it, they, feel very much like fables where it is some kind of, I am gonna say personal failing, which isn't quite what I mean, but like, there's, some moral that the God has to learn or that the Fox is essentially trying, to teach. And then we get to why the fox and the wolf don't get along or the, fable of, what happened. And it's The wolf ate the Fox's kit.
Lilly: 31:32
Like newborn days old baby.
Sara: 31:36
is a really, it it was a much darker place than I was expecting.
Lilly: 31:41
Yeah. and this wasn't like, and then he cut the wolf open and the baby sprang out. Like, no,
Sara: 31:46
No.
Lilly: 31:47
it also. Felt like such an escalation because it's, that story starts with the wolf is already mad at the fox because of all the other stuff the fox has done. And so the wolf decides to teach the fox a lesson, and it's like nothing we've heard about the fox even remotely justifies that kind of escalation.
Sara: 32:13
Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm not sure that anything would justify that kind of escalation anyway necessarily, but it does
Lilly: 32:21
But there are degrees and that was out of pocket
Sara: 32:24
yes, absolutely. Like it, it does seem like a wild escalation based on what we know about all of the characters.
Lilly: 32:32
based on what we know. And so it just felt like I was missing a lot. Is that really how the wolf reacts to the fox? Embarrassing some siblings murder?
Sara: 32:46
Not just any murder. Child murder, infant murder.
Lilly: 32:50
still like such a permanent consequence compared to the shenanigans we've been getting before.
Sara: 32:57
Yeah. Yeah.
Lilly: 32:59
And it felt like the book was trying to. Lead up to this mystery of why the fox and the wolf were against each other, but it left me just instead wishing I had gotten the relationship buildup.
Sara: 33:13
I agree. I, I would've liked to see more of that, I think if instead of the other fables. Although I, I did, like I said, the fable about, the fox and the spider does have relevance to the story. But I think that the reveal of what happened specifically between the fox and the wolf would've been stronger if the fables we had seen previously were also between the fox and the wolf.
Lilly: 33:41
Or at least if we had seen the wolf at all,
Sara: 33:45
That too.
Lilly: 33:46
like keeping that character like hidden until a grand reveal at the end I don't think worked, especially because it is such an emotional story.
Sara: 33:56
Yeah. I, I think that it would've benefited from a little bit more buildup.
Lilly: 34:01
Yeah. That being said, I assume that that's what I was supposed to take away from the fable, which is that the wolf is unreasonable and violent. And
Sara: 34:11
Yes. Yes. I think so.
Lilly: 34:13
that, that's just his his deal because he's the god of the hunt. That's, he's not even the god of war. That was the lion, right?
Sara: 34:21
I think so.
Lilly: 34:22
Yeah. He's the god of the hunt. And so I guess he hunted the defenseless baby. I don't know.
Sara: 34:29
I, yeah, I don't know.
Lilly: 34:31
It was a lot and it, well, I know I talked about how I, I like that it wasn't super black and white with TE and the other Ziman people, but on that level it is completely black and white Fox. Good guy. Wolf, bad guy.
Sara: 34:48
No, no ambiguity there.
Lilly: 34:50
No.
Sara: 34:52
But again, for this kind of fable like story, I think that's fine.
Lilly: 34:56
Oh yeah, it worked. I wasn't even, like I said, annoyed by how black and white the wolf hounds were until I was given another option that I was like, oh,
Sara: 35:07
I didn't know I needed this
Lilly: 35:08
yeah.
Sara: 35:10
or I didn't need this, but I didn't know that this would make me like it even more.
Lilly: 35:14
Yeah. Which I think is a, a testament to. How fable, like the, the storytelling is overall.
Sara: 35:21
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Lilly: 35:23
It really did feel like a prequel though. Like if you told me that Cahill doesn't have like two, oh, quadruplets isn't the right word, quadri.
Sara: 35:37
I don't think that there is a A oh quartet.
Lilly: 35:40
Quartet. He was gonna say, I know there is.
Sara: 35:42
Yeah, there is.
Lilly: 35:43
If you tell me that he does not have two quartets and a finale planned out for this world, I would call you a liar.
Sara: 35:51
I mean, I didn't get the sense that there was more specifically planned from his author's note at the end of the book
Lilly: 36:01
He's playing coy.
Sara: 36:03
book.
Lilly: 36:04
you,
Sara: 36:04
maybe he does say that if there is another book, he would give the fox and Nessie a regency ballroom scene, and I'm here for that. I, I think I would enjoy reading them in a regency ballroom setting.
Lilly: 36:21
is my brain broken or did that make me think that they were gonna have a kissing scene? I guess just because they're in the scene together doesn't mean that they're being, but Regency Ballroom screams romance, right?
Sara: 36:34
I mean, my, my mental image of that was they're part of that event. They're attending the ball for shenanigan reasons, but not that they're going to have a romantic interlude.
Lilly: 36:49
Because that's impossible. Like that would just be crazy.
Sara: 36:52
I did not get romantic tension From that description or from their two characters.
Lilly: 36:58
Well, I didn't from the, from this novel at all, novella at all. I'm just saying, telling me that two characters are gonna get a ballroom scene. That's, I just, that's my instinct. I don't think that's what the point was.
Sara: 37:11
No, just because they're in a ballroom doesn't mean that they are going to be doing the kissing.
Lilly: 37:18
Someone's gonna be kissing though. It's actually illegal to put more than one person in a ballroom and have no one kiss.
Sara: 37:25
I'll give the two of them a nice swanky ballroom scene. A big, modern kind of bash with tiny tea cakes and fancy cocktails, and expensive outfits, and politicking and courtship, drama, real bridgeton vibes.
Lilly: 37:36
Courtship drama. See
Sara: 37:38
Yes. But like,
Lilly: 37:39
not between them
Sara: 37:40
yeah, not between them. They could, they could be the ones doing the, doing the matchmaking.
Lilly: 37:46
Mm. That would be really fun.
Sara: 37:47
Yeah. Like that's, that's the kind of vibe that I got from that description.
Lilly: 37:51
No, I, I don't think that that's what he meant. I'm just saying that, that when you first tell me two characters are gonna have a ballroom scene, that is my instinct.
Sara: 38:00
I, I guess that's fair.
Lilly: 38:02
You are the correct one here. But now, yeah, I do really want them doing some like, Midsummer Night's Dream shenanigans.
Sara: 38:11
Yes.
Lilly: 38:12
I think that'd be very fun.
Sara: 38:14
Yeah, I agree. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Lilly: 38:22
Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.
Sara: 38:33
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Lilly: 38:40
We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.
Sara: 38:46
Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.