The Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett

Episode 128

Release Date: February 21, 2024

Your hosts discuss The Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett. They compare it and its main character to The Amazing Maurice, the first YA Discworld novel. Tiffany Aching proves to be the podcast fav. They debate what qualities a book must have to be considered "Discworld" (and in doing so they might accidentally turn "Discworld" into a genre). Witches are evaluated, the Wee Free Men are enjoyed.

Find us on discord: https://discord.gg/dpNHTWVu6b or support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/fictionfanspod

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly: 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily

Sara: 0:10

And I am Sarah

Lilly: 0:11

and today we'll be discussing the Wee Free Men. Is there actually a the this time I always add Thes when I shouldn't.

Sara: 0:18

There is actually a VA this time.

Lilly: 0:20

Excellent. We will be discussing the Wee Free Men by Terry Pratchett. But before we get there, Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara: 0:29

Something great that happened recently is I went for a run today. I haven't gone I've, so I've been trying to do more running. That's a New Year's resolution, and I took the last two weeks, two and a half weeks off because my knee was bothering me, but I went for a run. Yay.

Lilly: 0:46

Very responsible. Good thing.

Sara: 0:48

well, I'm, you know, reaching a little bit for good things because it's not been that long since we last recorded.

Lilly: 0:55

Yeah, fair. I realized I'm going to use the same thing that I used last time we spoke, except now it's in past tense instead of future tense.

Sara: 1:03

Exciting.

Lilly: 1:04

Yes. Um, it was sunny this weekend. So we went and did, he went all the way into the backyard, uh, walked like 10 whole feet to do a little bit of yard work. We're working on a tulip bed that's, we started last year, so our tulip bulbs have just been languishing in the garage for like six months.

Sara: 1:22

Do you have to lift your tulip bulbs?

Lilly: 1:24

No, it's purely aesthetic.

Sara: 1:26

I mean, why are they languishing in the garage then?

Lilly: 1:29

Oh, we dug them out of the ground so we can put them into the bed, but there is no bed to put them into yet.

Sara: 1:34

Oh, okay. I get So you did lift your bulbs, but not because you were trying to overwinter them or whatever, just because you were going to move them. I see. I'm, I'm on track now.

Lilly: 1:45

and they have started sprouting in the bucket, in the garage, so like they're doing great. That actually, that should be my good thing. I did not kill a bunch of tulips by losing steam and not finishing the gardening project before winter.

Sara: 2:00

That's very exciting.

Lilly: 2:01

Very exciting. So we started that. Except the problem is that just because it was sunny does not mean it was warm.

Sara: 2:07

This is true,

Lilly: 2:08

So I got very, very cold and gave up halfway through again.

Sara: 2:12

but at least, at least he got halfway through

Lilly: 2:14

we made progress. Yes, probably. Well, no, there's a lot of dirt to move. Yeah. Halfway. I'm gonna stick with halfway.

Sara: 2:22

I look forward to seeing the finished product or even just the halfway product.

Lilly: 2:27

Yes. Well, right now it's just a, uh, muddy pit, so it's supposed to be a little bit dry again by the end of this week. So hopefully we'll finish it so we can get those bulbs back in the ground in time for daffodil season.

Sara: 2:39

crossed for you.

Lilly: 2:41

I was trying to come up with what I would consider a sheep tincture to drink tonight. I did not, I did not come up with anything.

Sara: 2:49

I thought about just getting whiskey because I figured that's probably close to the sheep liniment that Granny Aking made, but I decided I would stick with cider, which also feels setting appropriate.

Lilly: 3:02

Yes. I'm double fisting it. I have my, uh, shrub, my raspberry vinegar bubbly water drink, and then of course, a Gandalf-sized glass of red wine.

Sara: 3:14

Very nice.

Lilly: 3:15

Should I clarify that? I'm referring to the scene in the Hobbit movie where a dwarf hands him a glass of red wine and it's very tiny.

Sara: 3:22

I mean, I thought that was evident, but also I did have visual.

Lilly: 3:26

Yeah. I held it up and I was like, Hey, look.'cause you might think I meant a Gandalf-sized glass of wine to a hobbit, which is the opposite anyway. Irrelevant.

Sara: 3:37

You have a small glass of red wine.

Lilly: 3:39

Yes, as one half of my beverages for the evening, I have not read anything that was not podcast related in the last forty-eight hours. How about you?

Sara: 3:47

I actually have.

Lilly: 3:49

You are mad.

Sara: 3:51

I am mad. I read the Gin Bot of Shantyport by Samet Basu, which is kind of Aladdin in space. That's simplifying it quite a bit, but it was great. I read it in over the weekend. I.

Lilly: 4:05

Nice. Well, what I have done all of my reading on in the last couple of days has been the Wee Free Men, which is one of the young adult Discworld novels, a Tiffany Aking novel. I hadn't read it before. I hadn't read. I hadn't read any of the young adult stuff, so these are all gonna be new to me. You've read it before though, right?

Sara: 4:24

I, yeah, I, I have read it before and I quite like

Lilly: 4:27

It was cute. She was charming. Yeah.

Sara: 4:30

I really enjoy the Tiffany Aching books. I think they deal with a lot of the same themes as the witch books, but for a slightly younger audience, and I think they're great.

Lilly: 4:43

Yeah, I, thinking back, I kind of wish I had started, I was probably about the right age for this book. When I bounced off of Color of Magic.

Sara: 4:53

Hmm.

Lilly: 4:54

I might've been a little older, but I, it would've been a better match I think

Sara: 4:58

Yeah, this book came out what? In 2003?

Lilly: 5:01

So I would've been 10.

Sara: 5:02

Yeah. I'm just thinking because I don't

Lilly: 5:05

it exist at the

Sara: 5:06

think that it existed at the time. Like I think that I had started reading Discworld before the We Free Men came out.

Lilly: 5:13

Well, you probably did, but I didn't. I started after you.

Sara: 5:16

Right. But like, when did I recommend them to you?

Lilly: 5:19

I don't think I was younger than 10.

Sara: 5:21

Or it's also possible that because I was going in chronological order that it had come out, but I hadn't gotten there. But it would've been a better place to start. Yep.

Lilly: 5:32

Yeah. Well, I, I'm just trying to think. I don't know. I was reading this and going, this totally would've clicked with me when I was a kid, and then I went down that rabbit hole of could I have read this book at the right time? Maybe. Yeah. Anyway, I.

Sara: 5:45

I did keep thinking when I was reading it,'cause it's been a couple of years since I've last read it. I did keep thinking, wow, this is really the grief book because Tiffany is dealing with a lot of grief over the death of her grandmother.

Lilly: 5:57

And a lot of like, I'm gonna say serious grief. That's silly. It regrets, I think is maybe a good way to put it. It's not just, oh, I miss this person who I loved. It's also, I am realizing that there are things I wish I had done differently. Which I think is a very different version of grief than we get. A lot of the times,

Sara: 6:19

Mm. And there's, there's also that aspect of, I didn't know this about this person, right? Because there's a lot that Tiffany learns about her grandmother as she progresses through the story that she didn't know. You know, going into it.

Lilly: 6:33

I really loved her back and forth on whether her grandmother counted as a witch. Internally entirely. But that she starts with like of course she was, and then well, no,'cause I knew the explanations for everything but that, so she still totally will like.

Sara: 6:49

But also that's, I feel like that's kind of the point, right? Like in the Tiffany Aching books and in the witch books like witchcraft, yes, they do magic, but that's not why they're witches.

Lilly: 6:58

Right. I mean, does this count as a witch book? We see Granny Weatherwax, and Nanny Ogg for a hot second. We get a lot of the themes that we get in the other witch books. She's a witch.

Sara: 7:12

So I would say that if your definition of a witch book is a book that is about witches in Discworld on the disc, yes. But if your definition of a witch book is like a granny, a nanny book, then no. Even though the two do come into it at, is that a spoiler to say? They come into it,

Lilly: 7:34

Uh, they show up.

Sara: 7:35

they, they show

Lilly: 7:36

I don't think that's a spoiler. We're not gonna say how they showed up. Okay. You've talked me out of my opinion, but from the different direction.'cause first of all, it's not called the Nanny and Granny series, it's the Witch series.

Sara: 7:48

Because there's a third witch in all of them.

Lilly: 7:51

Yeah. And in this one it's Tiffany. It's, I mean, it's not, that's, it's not at all. Um, also, this doesn't have anything to do with Discworld. So if our definition of a witch book is a book about witches that takes place on Discworld, then no, this is not,

Sara: 8:07

Hard disagree there. Hard disagree there. We have heard mention of the area that this takes place in and the villain in the story has shown up in previous Discworld books, like the Geography is the same, the enemies are the same.

Lilly: 8:21

but we don't hear about any of the geo, like

Sara: 8:24

We do hear about the geography.

Lilly: 8:26

there's one comment about a flat ocean.

Sara: 8:29

Well, there's also all the comments about the Ramtops.

Lilly: 8:32

Okay. True. They're next to some mountains. I just, this could have been any fantasy world, which is also interestingly what makes it a good place to like to introduce a kid.'cause there's none of that like crazy baggage. You don't have to do homework to read this book.

Sara: 8:47

Well, and I think that's the entire point of it, right? Like that's why it's kind of light on the Discworld elements is because it's an introduction for children into the series and the setting as a whole. Like I think that's very intentional.

Lilly: 9:01

Even Morris took place. I felt more in Discworld than this did, and maybe that's because this book felt so fucking British. The sheep and the rolling green hills and the, you know, the barrows and like, oh man, this was just Fantasy England

Sara: 9:20

It, it is a very British bit of disc world. I'll give you that,

Lilly: 9:24

that we'd never see before,

Sara: 9:26

that we have heard about before.

Lilly: 9:29

has been named before. Like, that's not, I don't think, well, I don't remember when it came up, but I don't remember thinking, oh yeah, that's the, that's the British part.

Sara: 9:37

But if your argument is that it's not Discworld because it's only been named before then like for example, the next book, Monstrous. Regiment takes place in a part of the Discworld that we haven't seen before that's only been named, but it's still Discworld. What makes the two different.

Lilly: 9:52

Oh vibes, 100% vibes, and I mean. I am not saying that this book doesn't count as a Discworld novel. Thematically, I'm saying that the setting is very tenuously, barely Discworld, in name only.

Sara: 10:07

I think that it is a stronger connection than just tenuous, but I will agree with you that it is in name only

Lilly: 10:14

Mm-Hmm. I mean, because like if you wanna talk about themes and character arcs and stuff, yeah. This totally works as a Discworld novel, but setting-wise,

Sara: 10:22

is this our genre disagreement all over, just because we have different definitions. For the pillar that makes it de-squirreled.

Lilly: 10:31

Yes, Discworld is a genre,

Sara: 10:34

It kind of is,

Lilly: 10:36

it fits for theme, but not for setting.

Sara: 10:39

and I'm saying it fits for theme and setting.

Lilly: 10:42

Well, I was gonna make a joke about how maybe you could point to it on a map, but you can't, can you? Haha.

Sara: 10:47

What do you mean you can't there? There are de-squirreled maps.

Lilly: 10:50

Not according to the back of every single book I've ever read.

Sara: 10:53

Well, okay. Originally there weren't Discworld maps, but I'm pretty sure Pratchett capitulated at some point.

Lilly: 10:58

Nah, you gotta get those merch dollars. I get it.

Sara: 11:00

Yep.

Lilly: 11:01

One thing that I thought was very interesting was that this book often uses the word hag instead of witch, although I suppose that was the we freemen themselves who were using that word.

Sara: 11:13

Yeah, I think that's specifically a dialect thing for the Wii free Men.

Lilly: 11:17

There's a, a lot of spooky, magical lady archetypes, but hag and witch do have very different connotations to me, and now I'm wondering if that's just'cause I play D&D.

Sara: 11:27

think a little bit might be because you played d and d, but I also think that Pratchett. Kind of playing with the delineation between all these different definitions, like what makes a hag versus a witch versus an old lady who lives by herself with her cats and maybe, you know, is not remembering things very well because she's got some form of dementia. Like you see all of those different aspects of elderly women in this book. So I, I think that Pratchett's using the McVeagle to kind of make that point.

Lilly: 12:02

It was definitely an interesting exploration of language and also like the title that someone accepts affects the way people treat them. I mean, and language itself being powerful is definitely a theme in this. Book, so it felt like an extension of that.

Sara: 12:18

Yeah.

Lilly: 12:18

I do think I liked this book better than the amazing Morris and his educated Rodents.

Sara: 12:23

I think Pratchett has a better idea of how to write. I mean, okay. I was gonna say, I think he has a better idea of how to write for kids, but prior to this, he had written plenty of stories for children in his time as a journalist. So I don't think I can say that actually.

Lilly: 12:38

Yeah, I think it's because this book appeals to me personally more honestly. I don't think it's a quality thing.

Sara: 12:47

I think I want it to be a quality thing because I want to have a reason that is concrete, but I think you're right.

Lilly: 12:55

Well, it was hard because in Morris there was another young girl character Melissa, who has a lot of similar traits with Tiffany. She's kind of the odd kid, very precocious. And very headstrong. But Militia is definitely a punchline in the Morris book, whereas Tiffany is the celebrated main character. And so relating to these girls in this book felt good. Whereas I remember in after reading Morris, I was kind of like, Aww, that was me, wasn't it?

Sara: 13:31

Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot of overlap between Tiffany and militia, but Tiffany's traits that in militia are kind of like overblown and negative are generally a positive or neutral.

Lilly: 13:44

Yeah, and they're definitely different characters. Militia very much plays. Well, they both play in well, they're okay. Both of these books deal with the power of story, and Militia kind of uses that, like plays into it and uses it for her own benefit. Whereas Tiffany is sort of destroying the illusion of stories and like using the power of reality and being like Ineffably practical. So they're definitely not like, it doesn't feel like Tiffany is the updated version of Militia, but there's a lot of overlap there.

Sara: 14:18

Right in a Venn diagram, there's a a lot in the middle.

Lilly: 14:21

And yeah, I preferred relating to Tiffany. So there are only like a couple footnotes in this book.

Sara: 14:28

I think that's because it's a YA novel

Lilly: 14:30

Yeah. That was not a non-sequitur because one of the footnotes about Tiffany was one of my favorite things in the whole world where it mentions that she knows a lot of words, but she's never heard them out loud, so she doesn't know how to pronounce them girl. Same.

Sara: 14:44

hashtag relatable.

Lilly: 14:46

Yeah, it was like that kind of stuff where I was just like, oh my God. Yes.

Sara: 14:51

I, I do like Tiffany a lot. I think she's a, a great focal point for her books.

Lilly: 14:56

Well, I have accepted that they're the Tiffany Aching books because it's not discworldy enough to be a witch book, so

Sara: 15:01

I'm going to not respond to that

Lilly: 15:05

I.

Sara: 15:05

very argumentative statement because I disagree with you entirely as usual.

Lilly: 15:12

So one of the events in this book, not events, a thing that happens, that's an event, I guess.

Sara: 15:19

I would. I would call that an event.

Lilly: 15:21

I walked back into that one. Tiffany often has to take care of her baby brother and I recently discovered how to interact with babies, and I'm very pleased about it. And everything in this book has just reinforced that my strategy of just treating babies like cats works perfectly.

Sara: 15:43

Interesting. Except that I like cats and I don't like babies.

Lilly: 15:46

No, no, no. I didn't say that. I said the way to interact with babies is to treat them like cats. You don't wanna make like loud noises or sudden movements. You wanna make sure they're cool with you, like holding their hand or touching them or something. I can speak to them the exact same way. I speak to my cats and they react pretty well. And they have the exact same kind of toys. One of our friends has a, I have no idea how old she is. Very young. Very young child. And she has a toy that is just like a crinkly blanket. Exactly like my cats have. And she has a toy That's a soft thing with a jingle on the inside. Exactly. Like my cats have. I've broken the code. I understand children now.

Sara: 16:31

Yeah, I, that makes sense.

Lilly: 16:34

So Tiffany wrangling her little brother. I was just like, yes, I was right. Lure them around with treats. I've never used my cats as bait, have I? No, I've never used my cats as bait.

Sara: 16:49

I like how you had to think about it for a minute first, though.

Lilly: 16:52

I mean, mm. I have sent pictures of them to people when I was like, I wanna talk to this person, but I have nothing to say. Is that using them as bait, kind of social lubricant bait?

Sara: 17:03

Non-dangerous setting bait.

Lilly: 17:05

Oh yeah. I've never dangled them over the mouth of a river monster that I can say with no hesitation.

Sara: 17:14

I would be a little concerned if you could not say that with no hesitation.

Lilly: 17:18

So Tiffany's great relating to her was very enjoyable in this novel. Really, this is not Tiffany Aching by Terry Pratchett. This is the Wee Free Men and the Nack McFiegel just totally steal the show, except it's their show, so they're not stealing it and they would hate that.

Sara: 17:34

Except it's actually a Tiffany Aking book, so it's not their show. So they are stealing it, and they would like that.

Lilly: 17:40

Okay. Alright. Alright. They're not just in this one, are they? Are they in all of her books?

Sara: 17:45

They're in all of her books and technically so I think there's a Knack McFiegel who shows up on the watch at some point. And there's also Buggy Swires, who's the Buzzard gnome writer on the watch, and he's very Knack McFiegel coded, although he shows up before Pratchett had actually like written the Knack McFiegel. So I think that's why he's called a gnome.

Lilly: 18:09

Yeah, I was gonna say he is. Does he ever get rewritten? I mean, he's a gnome. He's not a knack McFiegel.

Sara: 18:15

I don't know if he ever gets like officially called an acmecfegle, but he shares a lot of the same characteristics and my suspicion is that he's not called an acmecfegle because he was written before Pratchett had like officially conceived of the acmecfegles as a thing.

Lilly: 18:32

that makes sense. The Nack MacFiegel are also referred to as picked Cs, which makes more sense if you see it written. I had actually learned fairly recently in the grand scheme of things, like in the last couple of years about the relationship between the Pictish people and some of the early myths around Pixies, which I thought was very, very cool. And seeing it like used

Sara: 18:55

Mm,

Lilly: 18:55

in this Discworld story, I was like, I get this. I understand.

Sara: 19:00

I know this reference.

Lilly: 19:02

Yeah.

Sara: 19:03

That's always a nice feeling when you are like, I know what this is based on.

Lilly: 19:08

I mean, that's about the extent of my understanding, but I was like, I get what he's doing here.

Sara: 19:12

Still, one of the things that I think is noticeable about the Wee Free Men is that they have a very heavy accent. I mean, obviously that's very noticeable, but I bring it up mostly because we've complained about bad accents before, like written bad accents, and I think that this is an example of how to do it well because he's clearly following like coherent grammar. There's structure to it and it's internally consistent when he writes it.

Lilly: 19:39

It's actually a dialect and not just, I'm gonna drop some letters and it's fine.

Sara: 19:44

Yeah, so I appreciate that because it makes reading their dialogue fun and not frustrating.

Lilly: 19:50

I also think something that contributed to that is the fact that Tiffany doesn't really understand them half the time, so we get a lot of like her internal dialogue or her asking someone a question or trying to figure out what they were saying. So it really holds your hand, and I think that's part of this being a book for younger readers. But that's such a great way to do it, right? Like as you're reading it, you're trying to figure it out and then you have like a little bit of a safety net if you can't.

Sara: 20:17

Yes. I don't know. I feel like it's gotten easier for me to read and understand them as I've read more of the books that feature them. Read and, and reread.

Lilly: 20:29

Interesting. I definitely was like kind of sounding it out, like, you know, when you have to move your lips along with what you're reading. Their dialogue. I definitely had to like listen to, in my head there are lots of OOTS.

Sara: 20:43

Lots of oots, but also some waley, waley, wailies, which is great.

Lilly: 20:48

Oh yes. So the Nack McFiegel, Fiegels Fiegel, many Nack McFiegel is still Nack McFiegel, right?

Sara: 20:56

I think so,

Lilly: 20:57

I think so. That's the vibe I got. Anyway. They're these tiny warrior people. Tiny like what, six inches maybe tops. It's small, very warlike, very aggressive, always trying to steal stuff, always wanting to drink. Obviously played for laughs. But then when I was thinking about the major battles that they face in the book, none of them were actually fought with swords or violence. They bring their battle bard with them and at one point. The bagpipes or the mousepipes save the day and the other time it's terrible poetry. So for all of their like aggressive posturing, there's not that much of

Sara: 21:40

a little bit because there's a lot of punching. We see a lot of punching and they, they do do a lot of like actual physical fighting too. But when things get really bad, I. Yes, that's when the battle bard comes out.

Lilly: 21:53

They fight each other a lot.

Sara: 21:55

But they also, they also fight like enemies too.

Lilly: 21:59

Yeah, I guess. But I guess it was the two like scariest. The biggest enemies or most frightening enemies.

Sara: 22:07

That's why I say when things get really bad, I.

Lilly: 22:09

Yeah. And there's something so delightful about that, like these very aggressive tiny creatures who are like, oh, no, no. This is a job for the Bard.

Sara: 22:19

Bard is a highly respected position in, uh, their society.

Lilly: 22:23

Yes, civilized people. They also, and this was just a very throwaway line. Does it even really come back? Their swords glow blue in the presence of lawyers.

Sara: 22:34

I think it, I mean, it has relevance to the plot.

Lilly: 22:38

Well, lawyers being their nemesis absolutely comes back their nemeses. It's not one lawyer. It's the concept of

Sara: 22:45

But their swords, I mean, there's mention in the very beginning of their swords glowing blue, and then their swords at one point do actually glow blue. So the joke is set up early on in the, in the book, and then there is payoff.

Lilly: 22:57

Is payoff. They don't like use that to discover that their friend, Tiffany Akin was secretly a lawyer all along or anything, which would be pretty funny.

Sara: 23:07

I mean, she's nine years old. It might've been hard for her to be a lawyer.

Lilly: 23:12

Hey, have you met a nine-year-old? They can rules-lawyer You out of a lot of nonsense.

Sara: 23:17

I try to avoid meeting children whenever possible, so

Lilly: 23:20

Well, that's why you don't take my word for it.

Sara: 23:22

I will. There's a story in here, and I, I have done zero research, so I could be completely wrong, but there's a story in here that Tiffany tells about a bird that is pecking away at a mountain, and I'm pretty sure that that story shows up in good Omens. Am I right?

Lilly: 23:41

Oh God. Don't ask me listeners, is she right?

Sara: 23:44

I should probably have Googled this. Well, good Omens Bird Mountain is a search term.

Lilly: 23:50

Alright.

Sara: 23:51

So yes, I was right. There's this big mountain sea, a mile high at the end of the universe. And once every thousand years there's this little bird who, and I'm gonna paraphrase'cause this is actually a very long quote, who flies all the way to the mountain and sharpens its beak and then it flies back. And after a thousand years, it goes and does it all again. This is when Crowley and Aziraphale are very drunk and they're talking about eternity.

Lilly: 24:16

And that's, uh, how Tiffany uses the story as well in the We Freeman.

Sara: 24:20

Yes, but I liked it because I was like, there's this reference to this other thing.

Lilly: 24:25

Yeah, it was cute and very clever. And see that was Rules lawyer-y. She was like, oh, I need to pick a day for this thing to happen that no one wants to happen this day after the bird has gotten rid of that mountain. And it works out perfectly for everyone involved.

Sara: 24:39

It does indeed.

Lilly: 24:41

Well, we better get to the spoiler section'cause I want to expound on that, but I've.

Sara: 24:47

It's a, the specifics are spoilery. Yes.

Lilly: 24:51

Well, we kind of already talked about who should read this book, when you should read this book, however we wanna phrase it.

Sara: 24:57

Yeah. I mean, this is absolutely a great starting point, particularly if you're a younger reader. I don't know if there's more that we can say there.

Lilly: 25:05

Yeah. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So Tiffany uses the Bird Mountain story to get out of marrying one of the NAC mc fecals because she is appointed to a very important head witch position basically for them.

Sara: 25:32

She is appointed to clan leader Keldah, but that comes

Lilly: 25:36

Well I thought, oh, big man was different from Clan leader'cause they definitely had a leader position that was not the kda.

Sara: 25:43

Right, but the Kelda is the leader of the clan, and then I think the Kelda's husband is like the male in charge of all of the stealing and drinking and fighting.

Lilly: 25:53

Mm, maybe. Anyway.

Sara: 25:55

But Kelda is definitely clan leader.

Lilly: 25:56

Yeah, what she says goes, so Tiffany gets appointed temporary Kelda and therefore has to marry one of the NAC McFiegls. And so she says, oh, okay. You guy,

Sara: 26:07

Rob. Rob, anybody.

Lilly: 26:09

anybody. And he has to pretend to be excited for it, which was sweet. He did pretend he tried and then she names the day that it would happen and it's, you know, it basically never, and I was wondering, does that mean he is engaged and he can't marry the real Kelda

Sara: 26:25

I think he's engaged, but they can break off their engagement.

Lilly: 26:28

and she's no longer Kelda? So it's okay.

Sara: 26:31

Yes,

Lilly: 26:31

I don't know if that ever comes up, but I was definitely thinking about it.

Sara: 26:35

the logistics it, it does raise some questions.

Lilly: 26:37

The Knack McFiegel mating rituals.

Sara: 26:40

And I know the answer, but I don't wanna say because

Lilly: 26:44

Oh, does it come up later? Well then just, I'll live in suspense. That's

Sara: 26:47

yeah, they do address it. It is addressed.

Lilly: 26:50

awesome. I love that. Yeah, that's, that is so much more of an answer than I expected to ever get. Because at the end of this book, the one with the humorously long name that I'm not even going to attempt, very sheepishly, asks Tiffany if she's okay with them going to go like get their permanent Kelta. And she was like, psh. Yeah. I mean on the inside she was upset, but she is a big enough person to go, that's a me problem. They need their permanent Kelta, who's actually right for the job. I liked Tiffany. She was a good kid. Acted far older than nine.

Sara: 27:22

did act older than nine. I like pretty much all of the characters in this book. I'm less fond of Miss Tick, who is the teaching witch.

Lilly: 27:31

I think she just, well, I don't even wanna say un. Yeah, I guess she underestimated Tiffany. That is the right way to say it. But I don't blame her because Tiffany is nine and yes, this is a book about her. So of course she rose to the occasion and saved the day. But I'm not gonna blame an adult for saying, I am going to go find someone so you don't have to deal with this.

Sara: 27:53

That's not why I dislike Mystic, and it's not like heavy dislike. It's just, you know, kind of, eh, but. Even when she does that, she's kind of snotty to Tiffany.

Lilly: 28:04

Oh, she's a witch. The witches are snotty to everybody.

Sara: 28:07

Yeah. But sometimes it's charming and sometimes it just annoys me.

Lilly: 28:12

Sometimes it's Granny, Weatherwax,

Sara: 28:14

Yes,

Lilly: 28:15

and sometimes it's anybody else.

Sara: 28:17

yes. Ms. Tick hasn't showed me that she deserves to be snotty. You have to earn that snottiness.

Lilly: 28:24

Oh, she's a w- All the witches deserve it. That's like the whole point.

Sara: 28:28

Some of the witches deserve it more than others.

Lilly: 28:30

That's probably true. Well, after I made a big stink about how this doesn't count as a Discworld novel, I never said doesn't count.

Sara: 28:37

You heavily implied it.

Lilly: 28:38

Let's talk about all the Discworld novels. This reminds me of.

Sara: 28:42

I mean, for me, it mostly just reminds me of Lords and ladies because the Queen and the Elves feature quite heavily in both. I mean, they're the villains in both.

Lilly: 28:51

the elves and the fairy circles and all of that, for sure. That one a bunch. And then also, why can I never remember, is it witches abroad? The fairy tale story.

Sara: 29:01

It switches abroad.

Lilly: 29:02

Thank you and that just like we talk about it all the time too, probably one that comes up more often. I just can't, not in my head. It also very strongly reminded me of Witches Abroad because of the interaction with like stories and stories having power and how they create expectations in people, which then people shape the worlds to fit. Anyway, there was a lot going on there.

Sara: 29:25

I think there's a lot of thematic overlap. Yeah.

Lilly: 29:27

It also reminded me a little bit of the Hogfather, and part of that was because of just belief has power, right? Like actual impactful power. There was that, but there were also some moments, and this might just be the movie, but there were some like visual moments in this book where I was like, I can see that and it's the Hogfather movie

Sara: 29:47

Hmm.

Lilly: 29:48

and I did not write them down. I should have, well, I read an e-book, so it wouldn't have been helpful anyway.

Sara: 29:53

You could have highlighted it.

Lilly: 29:54

Right, but I couldn't say it on page, blah, blah, blah.

Sara: 29:56

Yeah. Well that's fair. But also, I mean, our page numbers are so useless because everyone has different editions and page numbers are not standard.

Lilly: 30:05

Yeah. Fair. But yes, very strong. Similar themes with those two books, but kind of mixed together. And then also with a very strong dash of like how kids are navigating a world that they're learning about through stories. I. Which I think is really interesting, especially if you think about a young reader reading this book, like there's a lot of undertones. It doesn't come out and say it, but just because in a book it happens this way, like you can't expect that to fall out the same way in the real world, which I think is a very like practical lesson.

Sara: 30:37

This. I mean, and I think this goes along with Tiffany being a very practical, main character, but there are a lot of really practical. Elements or lessons in this book? I mean, like there's the statement that Ms. Tick says that even if you, you know, follow your dreams and follow your heart or whatever, you're still gonna be beaten by someone who actually put in the work, which obviously that's not Tiffany saying it, but I think it goes along with this whole practical event.

Lilly: 31:05

Yeah, it was a good book. I would definitely recommend it to young readers, I think, and adult. I liked it too quite a bit, but I think it does something different for a reader who is like starting to learn about tropes and like recognize similarities and stories, you know.

Sara: 31:20

Yeah.

Lilly: 31:21

Speaking of what in the Narnia was the queen.

Sara: 31:26

Her world is very Narnia. It's true.

Lilly: 31:28

It's like she has turned Fairyland into this like frigid snow world and lures the little brother away with candy. Very Narnia.

Sara: 31:37

very Narnia. The one thing I don't really like about that is that essentially it's just because she's depressed, because she broke up with her boyfriend or husband.

Lilly: 31:46

Yeah, but it's kind of not addressed necessarily, but you could justify it. When Tiffany realizes that the Queen is just like her victims, like she's never grown up. Like she's never changed. And so she is just as like empty and immature as she has ever been. So like, yeah, she's basically throwing a temper tantrum.

Sara: 32:07

There's certainly an explanation, but that doesn't mean I like it.

Lilly: 32:11

yeah, fair. She's definitely the villain, but she's not actually in the book that much.

Sara: 32:16

She shows up at the end a little bit, but it's more her presence than anything else in the book. In the majority of the book, I.

Lilly: 32:24

So her being a lackluster villain doesn't like affect the reading much.

Sara: 32:28

Well, I don't even think that she's a lackluster villain. I just think it's a little regrettable that that's her motivation for like the world around her.

Lilly: 32:37

probably agrees with you.

Sara: 32:40

Probably. I'm a little surprised that you're less vehement about it given some of the statements that you've made in previous books about people just needing to get over their exes.

Lilly: 32:51

Yeah, I guess I didn't really think it was because she got, like, to me it was, she's a snotty, immature person and something was gonna cause her to do this. That just happened to be the excuse of the day or whatever. I.

Sara: 33:06

Hmm. Maybe. I mean, but there's also the fact that this has gone on for a very, very long time, like she and the king.

Lilly: 33:14

that time is meaningless.

Sara: 33:17

Okay. Fair enough.

Lilly: 33:18

Like I, I guess I took that much more as a statement on she's the kind of person who all it takes is one breakup and this is how she reacts,

Sara: 33:26

Hmmmm.

Lilly: 33:28

not, oh, she got broken up with, she's just broken-hearted, you know?

Sara: 33:35

Yeah. Okay. That's fair.

Lilly: 33:37

much more like the opposite of Tiffany, who if she got dumped, would probably just, I don't know, shrug and say, I'm nine. Why were we dating?

Sara: 33:47

I was gonna say, I actually think that Tiffany would outwardly be fine and inwardly would have some emotional feelings that she had to deal with. I.

Lilly: 33:58

is completely reasonable, but she wouldn't like run around throwing a temper tantrum and be whiny about it for forever.

Sara: 34:05

No, she would not. This is very true.

Lilly: 34:08

So, you know what, this book also had a runaway baby.

Sara: 34:11

A runaway b- What?

Lilly: 34:13

Oh.'cause you were, you said this reminded you of Labyrinth

Sara: 34:16

Oh, yes.

Lilly: 34:17

a stolen baby. I guess I should have said not runaway.

Sara: 34:19

If you had said stolen baby, I would've, I would've understood what you were saying much more easily. But it's mostly, there's a scene when they're in Fairyland and they go into a dream because there are essentially nightmare monsters. Dream monsters that will bring you into dreams and then keep you there and you starve because you think you're eating food, but really it's dream food. And so it has no sustenance. And then they feast on your bones and there's this dream that they go into that's a ball scene and everyone is wearing like masks and beautiful gowns. And it was just very like Labyrinth-esque.

Lilly: 34:58

I also distinctly remember thinking while I was reading this book, how refreshing it was that Tiffany is never like I should have been nicer to my brother, which is what happens in Labyrinth. Sarah's like, I should have loved him and appreciated him. He is a baby. What, what, what's he doing? So in, in this book, Tiffany was like, no, he's my brother. You're not allowed to steal him.

Sara: 35:25

Yeah. I, I really appreciate that. It's not that she comes to realize how much she appreciates her brother as a human being.'cause she actually doesn't like him that much. I mean, he cries, he's sticky. She used to be the youngest and then he came along, but he's her brother and she's not gonna let anyone take him.

Lilly: 35:44

I especially love that just because of the message that's like, you don't have to like your family, but you do have to take care of them. I thought that was very good.

Sara: 35:52

Pratchett good at writing.

Lilly: 35:55

News at 11.

Sara: 35:58

In other words, water is wet.

Lilly: 36:00

Yeah, and foreshadowed water is also foreshadowed. That was a bad segue, but I'm sticking with it.

Sara: 36:06

We've had worse segues in this show.

Lilly: 36:10

Lies. There were two elements of the ending of this book that I was like, this is so ridiculous. But he did warn us it was coming, so I guess I have to be okay with it. One of them was the absolutely random underwater sequence where Tiffany like communes with the earth because the chalk is made up of bones of dead sea creatures. And for a minute she's underwater. And it was maybe millennia ago. Who knows?

Sara: 36:36

Prehistoric.

Lilly: 36:37

Yeah, whatever. So that was like a strange scene. And then suddenly she's a power, like not a powerful witch, but like self-assured. And then the other part. Was her grandmother's two sheepdogs showing up and then like zipping into the sky to herd the storm clouds away. Because in the beginning it's described as watching the sheep getting herded was like watching clouds move across a green sky. So I was like, all right, I'll give you this one Pratchett. But that was a stretch.

Sara: 37:08

But that scene is so emotional because it's her grandmother's dogs, and then she turns around and her grandmother's there, and it makes me cry.

Lilly: 37:16

Oh, it was very sweet.

Sara: 37:17

I cry easily. So.

Lilly: 37:20

Yeah, but still the dogs just showing up and then being able to fly was like, it was a leap. I was there by then. I was like on board with it, but I was still, while I was reading it, I was going, okay.

Sara: 37:35

That's

Lilly: 37:35

It was just something I noticed. It didn't, I didn't have a problem with it, but that's only because it was so like, not like set up, but he bookended it well enough by giving us that like similar visual in the beginning that it felt like a callback instead of just completely random.

Sara: 37:52

See, that's not how I get to the same point as you do. Right? Like it's, it's not the similar visuals that make me okay with the scene. It's all of the setup that he's done with Granny Aching and her sheepdogs, and turning her into this kind of semi-divine, not divine, but like. Yeah, a semi-mythic figure for everyone in that town that made me okay with thunder and lightning going off and hurting the clouds.

Lilly: 38:26

I mean, that was all very important as well. That's the most absurd thing that happens in the book, just from like a real-world standpoint. I mean, Dreamland doesn't exist, so you can't get sucked into it, but like.

Sara: 38:41

I mean, I would, I would say there's some other quite absurd things.

Lilly: 38:45

Fantastical maybe is a better word, but like these dogs suddenly actually being Thunder and Lightning was like I, that was a, it was a leap that we needed every bit of setup and like emotional prep that he gave. We needed all of it. I'm glad it was all there.

Sara: 39:02

I agree. I just don't think that the visual did much for, I mean, now that you've pointed it out, yes, it's good, but it's not something that registered as having an impact.

Lilly: 39:12

Granny aching is incredible, but that doesn't make her dog's supernatural beings.

Sara: 39:18

Except that they're kind of in the way that she is turned into a supernatural being. It makes sense that they have turned into supernatural beings with her.

Lilly: 39:28

Yeah, I mean, it, it works. I'm not saying it doesn't work.

Sara: 39:31

know. I'm, I'm not, I'm not saying that you are saying otherwise. I'm just saying we are coming to the same conclusion from different paths.

Lilly: 39:39

Yeah, I think so. I think that's just, yeah,

Sara: 39:42

Yeah, that's, that's all. We are agreeing. Somehow we're managing to disagree even when we are agreeing.

Lilly: 39:48

it's a skill. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara: 39:57

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok and BlueSky at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail.com.

Lilly: 40:06

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara: 40:13

We also have a Patreon, which we are posting semi-regularly to now, so you can support us and find our show notes and lots of other nonsense.

Lilly: 40:22

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.

Sara: 40:26

Bye.