Who Fears Death & The Color of Magic

Episode 2

Release Date: 2/17/2021

In this episode of Fiction Fans your hosts make their "explicit" tag count. Includes both spoiler-free overviews and in-depth discussions of "Who Fears Death" by Nnedi Okorafor & "The Color of Magic" by Terry Pratchett (as part of the segment: Journey to the Center of the Discworld). Also includes mentions of Wheel of Time and a brief visit to the Pet Peeve Corner.

Wheel of Time Book 9 (Winter’s Heart) Spoilers: 6:30 - 11:15

Who Fears Death Spoilers: 17:30 - 41:53

The Color of Magic Spoilers: 48:55 – 1:00:40

Music provided by Audio Library Plus; "Travel With Us" by Vendredi & "Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris" by Amarià

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

---

Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:04

Hello, and thank you for joining us for the second episode of fiction fans podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm joined by my cousin Sarah. Hello, Sarah.

Sara 00:18

Hi, Lily.

Lilly 00:19

So what are you? What are you drinking on this fine Wednesday evening,

Sara 00:25

I am drinking a cider from a local cidery that is really they're so lovely. They're this little small local company and called Blind wood. They do deliver nationwide if you're interested. But in the Bay Area, they hand deliver. And they're very sweet. And I love them very much. And their cider is really good. So that's what I'm drinking. What are you drinking tonight? Oh, well,

Lilly 00:51

well, nothing quite that adorable. Also local cider. But I'm just drinking. All the way hand delivered from my local Safeway. Semi Sweet from Seattle cider company. It's a cider night. Apparently.

Sara 01:11

It is a cider night.

Lilly 01:13

It's been snowing up here. So I'm all about seasonal beverages right now.

Sara 01:18

I'm very jealous. So Lily, anything could happen to you this week?

Lilly 01:23

Well, one of my cats threw threw up a hairball, which I know doesn't sound like a good thing. But our other cat has asthma. And so whenever I hear those sort of hacking noises, it's, frankly terrifying. But it was a hairball instead of an asthma attack. That's great news. Yay.

Sara 01:50

It's not often when gets to. Yea, a hairball. Right?

Lilly 01:56

Also, if it was just regular throw up. I would be worried that something was wrong. A hairball is just a hairball. They don't have to worry about that. It's best case scenario, would you hear that noise? How about you anything could happen?

Sara 02:11

If you had asked me this question at like three o'clock, I was going to say I finally solved this knotty problem that I was trying to, to fix at work. And then at like 315, I discovered that my solution works for the problem that I was trying to fix, but it brings something else up. So now I'm sort of back to the drawing board. Last good, but other than that, I mean, life has been life has been fine, but there's been no standout. Excellent events. The pugs are in good health. continued good health.

Lilly 02:50

A week where nothing happens to the pugs is good news, isn't it? That's true.

Sara 02:55

It is good news. I have never known a pug to have as many problems as Mr. Squeak does. My problem child.

Lilly 03:03

Well, cheers to Mr. Squeaks continued good health, and to

Sara 03:07

your pugs, your bugs and to your cats, hairballs and no asthma attacks.

Lilly 03:14

Yes. So have you read any good books lately?

Sara 03:17

Well, besides the books that we are talking about in this podcast,

Lilly 03:22

I think it's assumed that we're not going to include those in the opening. Like, they'll they'll hear about it.

Sara 03:28

It's fine. Yeah. But I have read them lately. It's true.

Lilly 03:33

And they are good.

Sara 03:34

And they are good. So yes, besides those, I have restarted up Wheel of Time. I'm on book 10, which is crossroads of Twilight. I am almost 200 pages in so I still have quite a ways to go. And I am enjoying it thus far. I still don't think that it deserves to be part of the slog. Although it's subtle, maybe a little slower than then. Book nine was, but have you read any good books lately?

Lilly 04:06

I have I just finished a song of blood in stone by Oh Penelope, which I talked about last time, so I won't go too into it. But fantastic.

Sara 04:18

You enjoyed it. Oh, it

Lilly 04:20

was very good. I I think I might go a little bit more in depth in a later episode. So I don't want to I don't want to have acid. That book does or even you know, I know you want to read it. So it would probably just be an entirely spoiler free conversation, but it deserves some time to be praised more than just Yeah, I liked it. I did like it. That's a true statement. But

Sara 04:49

yes, we will. We will dedicate some time to it in a later episode for sure.

Lilly 04:55

So remind me how many books total are in Wheel of Time

Sara 05:01

So the main series comprises of 14 novels. And then there is the prequel novel. So 15 like books in total?

Lilly 05:11

And what is the slog, quote, unquote, supposed to be?

Sara 05:16

I think that, and I could be wrong about this, but I think that the slog is supposed to be books eight through 11, I want to say, and I thought that it was a little slow. I think I said this in our last episode, possibly. So I might be repeating myself here.

Lilly 05:35

I was mostly wondering about the ratio of, you know, slog to total series. And it's like, that's like half of it. That's not half of it. It's a quarter.

Sara 05:46

It's not half. Yeah,

Lilly 05:48

that's still quite a bit. So

Sara 05:49

also, again, I highly disagree. I thought, book nine was great. Like, I flew through that book, I had no troubles with it. And book 10 is a little slower, maybe, but also not anything near what I would call a slog. Like, I don't have to bribe myself to drink it with wine. So it doesn't count as a slog for me. But books, one and two, and a little bit of book eight. I said, Well, if I read tonight, I can drink wine. And I got through the books that way.

Lilly 06:20

That's how I do dishes. Fair.

06:27

To avoid spoilers for books nine and 10 and the Wheel of Time series, go to timestamp 1115.

Lilly 06:38

So Sarah, you are on this, this journey to read all of Wheel of Time. And I know that's a dramatic way of saying it. But I feel like it fits.

Sara 06:49

I mean, it's kind of accurate.

Lilly 06:53

You had mentioned having a strong reaction to I think it was the end of book nine.

Sara 06:58

Well, no. So there are spoilers, but they're not really spoilers for the main bits of the plot. I don't think

Lilly 07:05

we already tagged this whole thing. It's go wild.

Sara 07:08

Wait, we did, but I'm just I'm just saying like, they're not. I'm not I'm not spoiling, like, big plot things, just sort of sort of minor character relationship things. So in book 10, where I am in book 10. Matt, who is one of the characters, one of the main characters, gets the news that Thailand has died. And I have really complicated and he's sad about that, but and thus so am I but I have complicated feelings about it, because so teilen is the, like the ruler of the city, Abu Dharr. And when Matt gets into the city, she basically decides that she wants him as like a temporary concubine, essentially. And he doesn't really have any say in it, like she wants to him. So she gets him. And there's a lot of like, I feel any modern reading of it. It reads his rape, or, at the very least, like very dubious consent, because there's a power imbalance, like he can't really he's he says no,

Lilly 08:19

like, it's coercion at some level. It is coercion. Yeah.

Sara 08:23

I mean, it's definitely coercion. Like, he says, No, he doesn't want it. Sure he enjoys the sex, but he's very clear about not wanting to sleep with her.

Lilly 08:35

That's not even a modern reading. That's just the definition. I mean,

Sara 08:38

yeah. But But, but it's not it's not treated as rape in the text. And so I have this very complicated like, like, it's, it's sort of, it's sort of treated as like, Oh, ha, ha, you know, Matt is so attractive to her that she can't help it. I mean, that's, that's, that's not maybe really what it but there's, there's no, it's not

Lilly 09:02

treated, like, like a dramatic thing. It's it just happened. And everyone's

Sara 09:08

like, like, it's not Yeah, and it's, it's a prolonged thing. Like he has this relationship with her over the course of the book. And when I say relationship, I just basically mean a physical relationship. Like there's no there's not really any emotional intimacy. But throughout the the entire course of of this relationship he's trying to get out of like, he doesn't want it. He like he hides from her. She steals his clothes, like but it's not treated as something serious in the book. So and when he learns that she's dead. He's sad about it because he's come to like her on a per on a more personal level.

Lilly 09:48

That is, I knew what you mean though there is that that instinct to sympathize with the main character, and you know, they're they are the eyes that you're experiencing the world through regardless of perspective of the book, you know what I mean? Right? Yeah, yeah. And, and so because he is sad and mourning her, it definitely puts a different

Sara 10:11

Yeah. And even though he like objects to the physical relationship that they have he he also doesn't view it as rape. I mean, it's never treated as rape in the text, which also, like, complicates my feelings about it, because I think it's rape, but he doesn't act like he thinks it's rape. And he's sad about her. And like you said, that is how we are seeing that relationship is through his eyes.

Lilly 10:41

Well, other than that, maybe mildly disturbing situation. How is book 10 treating you so far?

Sara 10:49

I mean, book 10 is really interesting thus far. I'm enjoying it. I feel like there has not been a lot of movement in terms of anything to advance the plot. But I am excited to see where it goes from here. So I'm definitely enjoying book 10. Despite my sort of uncertain, uncertain feelings about Thailand's death.

Lilly 11:17

Well, there is a book that we both read to talk about this evening.

Sara 11:20

Yes, so we both read Who Fears Death by Nettie ACARA for published in 2010. I believe that you Lily had read it

Lilly 11:30

previously. I did I read it for the first time over the summer. And then I reread it yesterday. Confession, I procrastinated. But I did reread it for this. So it's fresh. And I think the way we're going to structure this conversation is talk a little bit about the premise of the book and some of the really incredible strengths and reasons to read it. And then sort of separate that from our more in depth discussion. So that anyone who hears that and is interested won't get spoilers if they want to read it themselves. Does that sound like a solid plan? Yeah,

Sara 12:13

that's, that sounds good to me.

Lilly 12:15

Right at the top, we should say, as far as content warnings go, this book is very intense, and deals with some pretty extremely graphic sexual assault, and extremely violent. And it's, well, yeah, if you if that's not something you need in your life to hear about in your life, right now understand, skip forward to whatever time we're done talking about this, I'll put something here.

12:48

To skip our discussion of who fears death, go to timestamp 4153.

Lilly 13:01

But all that being said, this book is so it's such a satisfying read, like the end hits you so emotionally, that even though it's it's such an intense ride, by the end, it's I don't want to say makes it worth it. Because the whole thing is good. But it's not one of those books where everything is awful and terrible. And then you finish reading it and you just feel like shit. Yes, you know what I mean? Like the judge will do that. Yeah, there are there are low points, but I

Sara 13:35

didn't know what I was getting into when I started the book. So I was very surprised at some of the very graphic, well, a very graphic rape, and then the vaginal mutilation that occurs, this book had had been sitting on my iPad, I bought this book, probably, well, 2014. And it has been sitting on my TBR list since then. And I've always meant to read it and just never got around to it. But yeah, it's very emotionally satisfying. It sort of puts you through the wringer. And then you've come back out on the other side fulfilled,

Lilly 14:16

but not in any way you could possibly see coming. So other other than the absolutely intense wild ride, that is the plot. One of the other very cool things about this book that we can talk about, without spoiling anything, is the very neat setting. It takes place in you know, I've started seeing this in more places, but that post technology, post apocalyptic setting where they have computers and electricity, but they don't really seem to have the, like factories to make it they're all relics, and then that coexisting with magic and spirituality in a very cool way.

Sara 15:01

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say that they don't in this book that they don't have the capabilities to create technology with clearly they have some sort of technologies that we don't have. But it's not a focus of the book. And if those technologies do still exist, it's not something that exists in the immediate vicinity of only a salon. Well,

Lilly 15:25

like you said, that's not really the focus of the book, that's just a quirk of the setting that they exist in. And it doesn't really go into it very deeply. But you still get a very vivid sense of where these people live.

Sara 15:40

Yeah, I think a car afford does a really good job at making you feel the setting. Like, you know, these people, and you, you know where they live. And that's a skill that not everyone has a specially in, you know, 400 pages. Yeah, only 400 pages.

Lilly 16:00

I just checked the back of the book to see how much I feel like anything on the back of the book is fair, fair game for not spoilers. Yes. So as we we sort of alluded to earlier, the main character on the assault, NWO is the child of rape, it's a result of a generational long conflict between two ethnic groups in this region. All of that is to say, if you do have, how do you phrase like, the emotional energy to deal with the highs and lows of this book? That sounds too dramatic?

Sara 16:34

Well, if if you are if you are in a place mentally, where you can read about some really graphic things, then this book is really worth it. But if that's not for you, right now, then, you know, you do what you need to do.

Lilly 16:49

I mean, I cried, both times, I read this book.

Sara 16:54

I see actually, I didn't cry that much in this book, and I'm normally a big crier when I read, which is not to say that I didn't find this this book, emotional or emotionally taxing like it, it definitely hits you. And it hit me. But I just didn't. There weren't tears. For me. It wasn't a tear book.

Lilly 17:15

It's just devastating. It's devastating in a good way. Is that, like, that's fair to say.

Sara 17:23

I think so. Like it's it's harsh. It's not an easy read. But it's worth it. Yeah.

17:30

To avoid spoilers for who fears of death, go to timestamp 4153.

Lilly 17:46

On your son, who is one of those characters, who has a fantastic character, and I love her, and I cannot stand the choice. Actually, that's not fair. I do have to constantly remind myself how young she is in this book.

Sara 18:01

Yeah, I mean, she's 20 At the end of it.

Lilly 18:06

She's 20. At the end of it through a lot of it. She's like nine.

Sara 18:12

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's definite like she's, she's young in it. But you kind of forget that because she goes through such harsh things.

Lilly 18:19

And it is told from her, you know, it is for her adult self telling her life story. Yeah. So it is all in retrospect, which kind of lends it a more like, even though it's a nine year old going through this. It's from the perspective of an adult. And so I definitely had to say it's okay that she's being dumb. She's nine years old, nine year olds are allowed to be brats. I'm realizing maybe we should have started with an overview of the book. Just to give you some context,

Sara 18:56

I think that it can be boiled down to on your son was birth father blood father, rapes her mother. And then it turns out that he is this powerful sorcerer who wants to get rid of all of the Okay. And on your son who thinks that that is a bad idea. And he is a horrible person, which he is a horrible person. And so she goes on this journey to learn more about her sorceress powers, which she has inherited, and stop him. Yeah, that. I mean that that doesn't really do the story, justice. But those are the, I think the main points. One of the

Lilly 19:37

reasons why it's so difficult is part of the magic in this novel, is the flow of information. And I think that was actually that was probably one of the main conflicts in this book is the control of information. This is something that the main character runs into, I would say the first half of the book It is the main character struggling to learn things, because either people are keeping them from her, or no one has told her enough that she even knows she should be asking questions. However, there was a prophecy that someone was going to change this dynamic between them. And a Nuru sorcerer decides that it's going to be him. DIB Dib. Gosh, we haven't apologized about our pronunciations yet. I'm going to do that now. I think his name is pronounced naive. That's how we're going to do it. He's a new route sorcerer warlord, basically, who does like commit atrocities just does really terrible, horrible things. Yeah, he

Sara 20:49

is a horrible person.

Lilly 20:51

You know, murder, mutilation, genocide. The list is not short or fun. At one point, he leads a gang of Nuru men to rape a group of OKK woman women who were in the desert praying as you do when you're an evil warlord. And he did this to create an A Wu child, which is a mixed race person of these two ethnic groups. But the woman that DIB assaults, is also a sorceress. She's not a trained, trained. Yeah, she's so that's true. In the book there, there is a difference between just someone who has magic and someone who has like gone through all of the initiation rites of sorcery.

Sara 21:39

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a difference between having the latent ability and actually training that ability and being able to use it. Well, because all of the

Lilly 21:48

sorcerer's refuse to train women. There are no women sorcerers, though exactly true. I mean, well, because by the time the book happens, it's not true. Yeah, but but we have a very limited view. I

Sara 22:00

mean, I feel like we couldn't, I wouldn't want to say that there are no weapons or servers at all, just that we don't see any. But we have a very limited view of sorcerers and sorcery until much later on in the book,

Lilly 22:14

every single source and where we meet is extremely sexist. Yeah. So that's true. We don't meet a single one that is not in the entire book. On this, I mean, on guest on who is the sorcerer? By then. But that's not the point.

Sara 22:32

But also there there is the other sorceress that we meet has been in training for like a long time.

Lilly 22:39

She's 30 Yeah, he passed initiation when she was nine. So like, yeah, a long time, but not like generations. No, not not generations. This is the first generation of sorcerers that have trained women I just

Sara 22:50

think that we can't actually specifically say that we don't know that I think it's likely but I just I don't I don't like

Lilly 22:58

saying I think if a Cora four wanted us to know that it was a possibility in this world. She's a better writer than to not even hint at it at all.

Sara 23:06

I just but I mean, there's no How do I want to phrase this?

Lilly 23:10

You're right you can't prove a negative Sure. That's real world talk not reading talk.

Sara 23:16

But also it just like it doesn't it doesn't come up like it's not it comes up a ton. Well, I was gonna say whether or not there are women Sorcerer's outside of, of where this conflict takes place, or this book takes place doesn't really

Lilly 23:29

well, sure there could be a whole moon full of women sorcerer aliens, but that's not really relevant. In this culture. There aren't any. We haven't seen any. I, I think if there were any in this world, than the author would have shown that to us. The entire first half of this book is the main character going through hell and high water to try to convince some old fuck to teach her magic.

Sara 23:56

Yeah, I mean, he he's an old fuck a sexist old fuck. There's no doubt about that. And a lot of these people are very sexist. Alright, then what did you think of the book? I liked it. I mean, it was a hard read. Like I said, I wasn't I didn't know anything about it going forward, except that I had had this book on my to read list for years and years and years and I'm generally not I want happy endings. And I wouldn't necessarily call this a happy ending. It is a hopeful ending, maybe, but not really happy. I also don't like a lot of character deaths. And this ends with a lot of character deaths, and some maybe character death. If I had known some, some of the plot points I probably wouldn't have read it because I like like I said, I like happy. But it was a really good book. I'm glad that I did read it. And it dealt with really powerful subject matter.

Lilly 24:51

It did and I, I ended up being of two minds of a lot of these characters. Because on one end, they fit into the story and they work together and you, you watch them struggle and sometimes prevail and sometimes make very bad decisions. And their flaws are very, none of them are sugar coated. Even Anya, like from the very beginning she admits like my temper is my greatest weakness. So then every time her temper gets into her into trouble, it's just like, Well, yeah, okay.

Sara 25:28

There's definitely no sugarcoating these characters like they are.

Lilly 25:35

Period when it comes to so like as characters, they're all very good. and wonderful. But like I could not stand a single one of them. That's not true. I liked Lou. You on Yes, friend. And I liked only his parents. She's great. Yeah. Lou is the only one I don't even like on Yeah, really? Like I wouldn't be her friend.

Sara 25:58

On on Yeah, like, but a lot of the characters, I do find kind of unlikable.

Lilly 26:05

I wouldn't be able to be friends with her. Because how could you look someone in the eye who was in a relationship with a guy like muita? And say, oh, yeah, you make good choices.

Sara 26:15

I don't think he was that bad.

Lilly 26:17

Oh, he was awful.

Sara 26:19

I mean, I think that he has some sexist feelings that he was working through.

Lilly 26:25

I don't get the impression that he's working through them. I get the impression that he's hiding them because he knows they make only a mad. Maybe read?

Sara 26:34

That's yeah, like I thought that that he was trying maybe not necessarily successfully, but he was trying to be better. We also like, again, they're both young, and we don't see them as mature adults. Because just because the novel takes place. I mean, they're, they're 20 at the oldest. Well, I think we chose a little older, maybe, but he's like, 22. Yeah, I mean, that's still a baby.

Lilly 27:02

That's true. I mean, he he had also been training for assay, not training to be a sorcerer, because you have to pass initiation. He was learning magic, and did not pass initiation to be a sorcerer. And his jealousy that only I did. I actually have no problem with. That's fair. I think that's very understandable. Yeah, that's fine. And that I think he does struggle with and try to overcome. Yeah, but he is so hypocritical. With on Yeah, I think one of like, the biggest, the most clear example of that is when they are in the what is it? There's what's the village called? When they're in? Nope. With when they're with the o sol Lu, when they're in Seoul do which is the nomadic traveling village inside the I have a dust storm? It's just so cool. So cool. That was probably my favorite part of the whole book was the VA people and that whole like community, yeah,

Sara 28:03

I think I would have to agree with you there.

Lilly 28:05

But when they're there, and a spirit shows up to do goodness knows what, because they're not necessarily benevolent. And only he doesn't want to go. She's you know, she's hesitating about going out and facing it. And we chose like, stop being such a woman. Like you're a coward. What's wrong with you? And then the second they both get out there? He's like, Oh, no, wait, don't don't go. What are you doing? Like he's terrified? And it's like, yeah, yes. shithead kid goats her and calls her a coward anytime she hesitates. But anytime she doesn't hesitate. He calls her an emotional, irrational woman. There's no winning with him. Everything she does is wrong. At no point does he go like, yes, you made the right choice. Good for you. All he does is bandage her up and complain about it the whole time. I mean,

Sara 28:54

I don't have any like, that was not the impression that I got from the book at all. Like, I didn't, I don't have one specific like scene that I can point to, to refute you. But I definitely like I didn't. I mean, I don't necessarily particularly care all that much for him. But I think that he cares for

Lilly 29:15

her. Sure. But I don't think he respects her. I think

Sara 29:19

I mean, I, again, I disagree there. I think that he does respect her but he's battling his feelings about the internalized sexism that that he has. That's been reinforced.

Lilly 29:32

That's not internalized. That's just sexism.

Sara 29:35

Well, okay. That's that's just sexism. Yeah, you're right. But but so he's, he's battling the sexism that that is, you know, reinforced by the culture and by all of his mentors, and he's not always successful at

Lilly 29:48

it. I don't remember a single instance where he is not sexist towards her.

Sara 29:53

I mean, but on the other hand, I don't, I couldn't tell you that. Like I wouldn't say that he's always sexist for Sir. So

Lilly 30:01

but you don't have any proof that he wasn't. So I got more.

Sara 30:07

I didn't. I didn't I didn't make notes, copious notes as I was reading I should have, but I just, I didn't. But all of that

Lilly 30:15

are like complaints on a on a like person. personhood level. Yeah. I mean that's, that's a character he's very good. That's a completely different conversation. Yeah. That's that's separate, because he is a very good foil for on Yeah. Because, you know, he's he's also a woo. But he was born from parents who loved each other. And so you have that, like, huge, huge comparison. And then you also get just the, the way the characters balance each other out and move through the story is very well done.

Sara 30:50

Yeah, I think that they're a very well balanced pair.

Lilly 30:54

Have you ever had to look a friend in the eye and say, I would never date your boyfriend. But that's okay. Because I'm not the one doing it. Like, that's kind of how I feel like, I would shoot myself before I dated someone like him. So I do not understand what anyone could possibly seeing him as a partner. But I'm not the one doing it. So I guess that's fine. Like, honey, if you want to sign yourself up for a lifetime of belittlement. You do you? Again,

Sara 31:23

I don't think that He belittles her as much as you say

Lilly 31:25

that he does. He really does. Really? I

Sara 31:30

really? That is not that is not what I got out of it. But also I still probably would not want to date him either.

Lilly 31:37

Yeah. Right. It reminds me a little bit of the relationship between DT one of his friends and her relationship. her fiancee phenoxy their their relationship starts when they're very, very young, infinite say gets super butthurt because all of the young women in the village are cursed to feel pain instead of pleasure sexually. Right? That's that was one of the big things that happens when they're 11. Until they get married, the cursor gets resolved when they get married. And so phenoxy gets mad at her. And like won't speak to her for years, because they were fooling around and she was in pain. And he took that as an insult. And later on, as they leave the village with Anya and DT sort of discovers the world outside the village her her world is expanded she meets other people she's no longer cursed. Because only eight hears that for her friends. And she realizes suddenly that fantasy is not her only choice. That's something Lou you said at the beginning. Lou use my favorite character. I like Lou you a lot. Yeah, she's fantastic. When the girls first find out the full consequences of the curse, Lou says they make us feel only pain. So when our husbands first touch us, we will think they're gods or something like that. That's not quite right. The only boy that's ever nice to own you is Mita. Of course she's gonna fall in love with him. Literally the only person in the whole world who's nice to you. That's that's not a relationship of love. That is like Stockholm Syndrome. That's not fair. It's not Stockholm Syndrome. He's not keeping her there. But yeah, I mean, it's not like she chose him out of multiple options. Yeah, I

Sara 33:39

mean, if there were more people than maybe her her choice would have been different. But I do think that she loves like, they have genuine feelings for each other, not just because they're the only a will around and no one else wants them. I don't think it's entirely unhealthy. But I won't argue that it's not entirely healthy either.

Lilly 34:01

I had one other thing I wanted to talk about. It's very short, though. So Lou, the sort of granddaddy sorcerer, if you will. Some point he talks about die Yepes plans to wipe out the OKK people and he refers to it as a revolution. And that is just bonkers to me. The Neeru are already like in control. That's not a revolution. That's just genocide. Like what are you talking about? Like what? No, that's not here nor there. That's not a conversation. There's just like so Lou. Honey. What are you doing?

Sara 34:48

Yeah, maybe maybe not the best word choice, right?

Lilly 34:52

Revolution. Like what? I think my favorite part of the whole book was Oh, man is his name. So Lou and the village named So Lou? No, they're not the same. I think I wrote it down. I might have written it down wrong. I, I really don't think they're the same. Well, one has more S's in it. Which is why I didn't realize it until just now. But yeah, it's the same right? Oops. Oops, I'm probably pronouncing one of them wrong is really what that means. The nomadic tribe called So Lou is definitely my favorite part of the book.

Sara 35:34

Yeah, I think that's my favorite part two. Partially because I feel like that's the happiest part.

Lilly 35:42

I was gonna say. It's just nice. They're also so cool. Oh, my God.

Sara 35:49

Yeah. Yeah, I would I would love to explore just their their tribe more. I think that would be a really interesting world building book. To see more of them.

Lilly 36:04

A huge polyamorous tribe that lives in the center of a miles long, just storm is the coolest thing. I don't want to. I just want to live there. Yes. I mean, sure. A book is as close as I'll get. But that's the coolest thing ever. I just love the image of all the little kids just running around and eating a meal with whoever is the closest.

Sara 36:33

Yeah, it's very congenial.

Lilly 36:36

And then also, like you said, It's the happiest? This is the first. This is the first society that hasn't been cruel to own. Yeah. There's been people, of course, but as far as like an actual group, I think they're the only ones. Okay, you're telling me you didn't cry? When? On? Yeah, at the very end of the book. It's the climax. Oda is about to rewrite. Not only the future, but all of history and completely change the world. And they're on this little island. And they're surrounded by people coming to attack them. They're like, you know, on boats to come and forum. We just had this crazy Chase. And Lou says, you go, like, all like the off. That didn't ride.

Sara 37:29

That's the closest I can. There might have been one or two tears, but it wasn't like an outpouring of tears. Oh, I mean, I wasn't sobbing. But there were no but I like I saw that books. And I didn't Psalm in this one. I feel like this book, it was like, a quiet sort of introspective book

Lilly 37:57

pain. Like for every part of this book, I think maybe except for how much I loved Lu you. And just that being her, her way of going out. was just like, oh, hit me.

Sara 38:15

It was very Yeah.

Lilly 38:16

She also has the Well, I'm not gonna say she doesn't have the best character art because of course, only a, you know, grows and learns. But I think Lou has the most dramatic one. Because she goes from this pampered precocious child. And she takes that and she owns it and becomes just this force of nature. But then as Olivier brings up over and over again in her narration with zero magical powers. Who doesn't give a fuck?

Sara 38:52

That is her magical power. Yeah,

Lilly 38:55

I love it. She just goes face to face with like, these incredible, horrifying things. I mean, the horrifying people things but then also, she stares magical spirits down. And it's just like, Yeah, girl. I'm here for you. Oh, she's the best.

Sara 39:18

I do like Lulu. Yeah.

Lilly 39:22

I don't think she should have slept with fantasy, but I get it. A woman is perfect. Yeah. She also was the while she does hate it at first. But I appreciate like she was the one who was most sincere during that whole thing. I think she was like, Yeah, I'm not in love with him. But it's the first time I've been able to sleep with someone and not been in unimaginable pain. So yeah, I'm gonna take that opportunity. Like it was that kind? No, but it's honest.

Sara 39:57

Yeah, I mean, I feel like the whole group is Just evidence of the fact that not all friends travel well

Lilly 40:04

together. Well, that's true. They're also as we said, like 20. So yeah, who doesn't do unintentionally mean things when they're 20? This is very true. The last thing I have, which is not actually a complaint is more of a comment on my weird prejudices against first person POV. I almost didn't read this book. I bought it. I picked it up. I read like two pages, and went, Oh, no. But you're because

Sara 40:44

so I have a question, though. When you bought it, did you not like open it up to read the first like, bit? And first person?

Lilly 40:54

I don't go to stores. Oh, about it. That's what I

Sara 41:00

That's true. I'm thinking, Oh, I bought my book, you know, five years ago, you must have to, no, that's not the case.

Lilly 41:08

And this is an archive of our own, where they tag it's in first person perspective, or not. All I read was the back. And that doesn't tell you. That's true. Good, because I probably would have not bought it. And that would be terrible. Because it's very good. It's just funny, because I really, like, have a hard time it's first person. But I got over it. Because this book is really well done. And I didn't even I'm not gonna say didn't even notice it. Because on his voice is very important to the story. But even my, even my weird hang ups were no match in the face of this excellent book. So this segment was actually the foundational concept for this entire podcast, and we have clearly gotten away from ourselves. This is our pet peeve corner, where we complain about stuff that we find and stuff we read. That's it. That's the whole that's the whole thing.

Sara 42:16

That's the shtick. Sara,

Lilly 42:19

do you have anything to complain about today?

Sara 42:21

I do. I do. So I was reading a story on a oh three, a fan fiction. And I didn't notice this in the first chapter. But I got to the second chapter. And I noticed that there were no capital letters used at all in this thick. And I just I could not I try it and I could not read it. So back button hit. I moved on with my life.

Lilly 42:49

Okay, but like, even even autocorrect will capitalize stuff. You have to try to not capitalize, like, I don't even understand how that happen.

Sara 43:01

Yeah, like I think it was definitely intentional. But so it was a stylistic choice that they made. But it was not a stylistic choice that I liked. And I didn't mind it so much in the first chapter, because I think they didn't use like I could get if it was just the beginnings of sentences that weren't capitalized. I could maybe get past that. But they weren't capitalizing, like names either. And the second chapter used a lot of names, and I just, it was too much. I need some capitals in my life.

Lilly 43:35

homophones we've all learned that sometimes words sound the same, but are not the same word. And if it happens once, it's fine, it's a mistake. I you know, get over it. Everyone makes mistakes. But if they use the same word a couple of times, I just, I can't I cannot do it. Or if that's not true, I still read it. I'm just mad the whole time. The most jarring one that I run into when you're reading romance, is he grabbed her waist. You know, yeah, he's grabbed her waist. It's an embrace, except they spell it waste as in trash or bodily waste, which is even worse mental image. And it just completely takes me out of the story. Like I cannot we do we want to introduce. I am I am taking full credit for the name of this segment. And I'm sure you're happy to give it to me because it's late. Oh yeah. So but I think in mind Goddamnit

Sara 44:49

credit is all your words. It's our

Lilly 44:54

it is our first step. Was it the journey of a of 100 books starts with a single page. That's the quote, right? I'm sure I got it right. We are embarking on our journey to the center of the disc world. And it's fun because it doesn't even make sense because there's not a center because it's a disc world like it. It's nonsense on every level.

Sara 45:19

I mean, even discs have centers, there is technically a center.

Lilly 45:24

That's true, but the center of the Earth is the core of the Earth. That's the original reference.

Sara 45:30

Yeah, I mean, it's not a core. I just thought it would be

Lilly 45:33

fun. We've both read these books, it's been a while I haven't actually read all of them. So there are going to be some of these. No, really?

Sara 45:44

Which, what what did you stop with?

Lilly 45:47

I mean, I've kind of read a random scattering of them. It's just there, there are holes is all I'm gonna say there are holes in my repertoire, if you will. But this is going to be a great time to read them all finally, and then also reread the ones that I've 100 times before. But we're embarking on a journey to the center of the Discworld, which to use not nonsense words for everyone else. Discworld is a series of books by Terry Pratchett, who is a British, I don't even want to like sci fi author. That's not quite right. comedy writer. That's not I mean,

Sara 46:28

I think that sci fi authors is the closest you can get, it's not wrong. I mean, his his books kind of defy genre, in many ways,

Lilly 46:42

will and they are a parody. Also, you know, he's he's parodying so many tropes of science fiction and fantasy. Yeah. Throughout the series, which I'm gonna have so much fun being obnoxious about. Buckle up. But the very first book is the color of magic. And it came out in I just looked at this page, and I already forgot 1983 The one? Correct. That is the one. And before we get to talking about this book, in particular, you had a Twitter conversation the other day regarding which Discworld book you should start with, I think we should talk a little bit about that. There's not going to be much non spoiler conversation for this book, read this world. If you haven't listened to this anyway, and then read it. They're all good. I don't feel like the story is as what am I trying to say? The journey is the fun part of Terry Pratchett. His language is phenomenal and hilarious. Like, knowing how it ends is not going to ruin it for you.

Sara 47:55

I feel like a lot of his books because they play on well known tropes, like you can kind of point out what the plot progression is. So it doesn't matter if you know, like, what how the story is going to end, because he makes you interested in how it gets there. Exactly.

Lilly 48:13

And we're about to encourage you to not even start in order. Which means well, you're going to know how other stuff happens like because he has these like sort of chunks of stories that take place on this earth on this in this place on this on the Discworld turtle on the Discworld. You end up spoiling yourself, or at least I did, because I would read one characters set. And they would mention another character who is apparently has this one job. But then when I went and started their series, they weren't there yet. So I knew which job they would get to eventually, and that was fine. It wasn't a problem. The rest of this episode contains spoilers for the color of magic. Maybe you can give me just like a one sentence. If x is your thing, maybe we can come up with one together. If x is your thing, or if you like x read the color of magic.

Sara 49:15

I don't have I don't have a short promo that I can use for that. Because I think that you will enjoy the color of magic. More if you are familiar with his other work. Like I don't think the color of magic is where you should start. I think that that once you have read some of Discworld you should come back to the color project.

Lilly 49:37

It is very much an exploration of the setting is very fundamentally

Sara 49:44

he's he's definitely finding his feet with the color of magic like he doesn't quite know how the world is going to shape up. And for example Ogmore porque the pretty much the main city that A lot of the characters are from RM in the later series is much more, I don't want to say comedically grimy, but like, over the top grimy, and there are bits of the city that are clean and this book, we could just change. But I think that if you enjoy, like, pastiche of other genres, this is a good book for you. Because he's, it's a very clear pastiche of a lot of different genres. The, the

Lilly 50:34

sort of driving force of this book is that a tourist comes to anchor morepork. Right. And so we get to see this city, through the eyes of a tourist, and,

Sara 50:48

except that much of much of this story takes place not at work,

Lilly 50:52

right. But that's how we're starting. That is how we start. And then he's a tourist of everywhere. And to flower, is this tourist, his name is to flower. And isn't? Isn't he really all of us? Aren't we all to flower? Who hasn't thought, Man, I'd like to meet a dragon. Like, you know, that that is who we are as readers of fantasy and sci fi experiencing these worlds? thinking, Oh, it would be so fun to drink a pint of mead down at the, you know, the grimy in like that, that is who we are. And then we have this person going through and doing that. And all of the people of this world, just thinking he's completely bonkers. And it's so much fun. And and then of course, you know, the, the recurring joke that they don't know what a tourist is. And that I it's not something that comes up. It's not something it comes up in a lot of his books. But with to flower, you see a lot the there are concepts, like modern, you know, real world concepts that he brings up because he is us, not actually us. He's from Discworld, just a different continent. He's an insurance agent. And no one knows what insurance is. And he tries to explain it as gambling that your tavern won't burn down. And so the tavern owner is like, yeah, we'll make that bet. And then burns his tavern down. Like it's just so the true masterful parody is being able to take the familiar and make it unfamiliar. And Terry Pratchett does that in such a delightful way in this book. Yes, I agree with you.

Sara 52:48

i But I think that this book is a lot more unrefined than his later work.

Lilly 52:56

Oh, I agree completely.

Sara 52:57

Yeah, like, I think I think that he gets a lot better at weaving the parody in in such a way that you, you get it but it doesn't feel unnatural. And this book, kind of, like you feel the parody bludgeoning you over the head

Lilly 53:13

a little bit to flower is literally a tourist walking into a tavern going, I want to see a bar fight. Like, it's much more absurd. And everything Terry Pratchett does is absurd, but it is, it is ridiculous in a way that I feel like in his later books, The story takes itself more seriously. And we as the readers know, the parody, whereas in this, everyone is aware of how ridiculous the situation is.

Sara 53:42

Yeah, yeah. I also feel that in later books, he's just parroting. Like one thing generally like and then this. So unlike a lot of his later Discworld books, this is actually divided into chapters. And to me, it feels more like a series of short stories that are brought together in one publication, then, like a continuous cohesive plot. Yeah, because it feels like he's reintroducing the characters and the concepts in each sort of like short arc Yes. And each arc is also like parenting a different genre. Like the the first chapter which were the first arc that takes place in uncle more pork or around on Kumar pork is like parenting, you know, Dungeons and Dragons and that sort of thing. Like they even have a line about failing a roll for initiative about failing. And then you have the next section, which is like a parody of like Lovecraft. And then you have the parody of of Anne McCaffrey and the Dragonriders of Pern and then you have kind of the the Jules Verne parody. So it feels a lot more segmented than some of his other work.

Lilly 54:59

I feel like it almost is a proof of concept. Because the rest of Discworld is this exact same idea. You know he does Phantom of the Opera. He does more that I can't think of at the moment.

Sara 55:13

Macbeth. Oh,

Lilly 55:14

yes, he does Macbeth,

Sara 55:16

Hollywood.

Lilly 55:17

Oh my god. There we go. There's so many. They're all so good. They are I have read those See, I've I've read most of them. There's just a couple of weird gaps. But he does each one as its own book. Whereas in this, he's sort of like he's playing with the concept. Yeah. Does this have legs? He's throwing it all at the wall and seeing what sticks? And the answer was all of it. So now he can like actually take the time.

Sara 55:44

Yeah, but that's part of why I feel like this is not the book that you should, even though it's like, going by publication date. This is the first book that was published. That's part of why I feel like it's not the book that you should start with because he is just throwing things at the wall. And so if you come to the more polished stuff, then you can go back and say, Oh, I see where he kind of got, like, how he started. And I can appreciate this sort of more diamond in the rough, then I would if I maybe started. I say that. But that's actually I started with the color magic. I read in publication order. But I don't think that's how one should start.

Lilly 56:24

I marked deaths intro just because I thought it was interesting.

Sara 56:29

Yeah, in in later series, I feel like he's a lot more. I don't want to say methodical, but he doesn't take life randomly. In later series. It's all governed by like, is it your time to die, essentially? Yeah. And in this book, he just kind of, like kills people because he gets annoyed, which is very different.

Lilly 56:51

Yeah, the rules haven't been established yet. I also completely forgot about the board game. Thing, the the sort of conceit that the gods are playing a board game. And the characters in this book are being affected by the moves they make in the dice, they roll, which is very silly and fun. But also, it tries to do too much. I think, yeah,

57:19

there's like, yeah,

Lilly 57:20

there are so many little snippets of gold, but none of them really get the time to shine. It's hard

Sara 57:24

to talk about the color of magic and a whole lot more detail, because it's not really a very meaty book. As we've said, I

Lilly 57:34

love reds wind, he's such an ass.

Sara 57:40

Yeah, how many times

Lilly 57:41

does he ditch to flower because it's not worth it to flower is running into danger. And rinse wind knows better? And he's just like, No, I'm out.

Sara 57:52

I mean, part of part of what makes friends been such an interesting character is that, like, he tries to avoid these horrible situations. And he just like, through no fault of his own, he gets put in them, but he knows they're horrible. And he the whole time, he was like, How can I? How can I like, get out of

Lilly 58:09

this? It's not that character where you think you're only here because you did the stupid obviously, like the stupid thing that you obviously shouldn't do. And he is cruel for ditching to flower who kind of needs him as his tour guide, you know, but you also understand like, yeah, he recognizes that he's in way over his head. And I respect his decision making in that regard. He did the math. That doesn't make him a good person, though. No.

Sara 58:41

And he's, he's very objectively, like, all he cares about is saving his own skin, which you would think on the surface that wouldn't make for a good character to read about, but it actually really works with trans men, because he's not malicious about it. And he's so sort of bumbling and yeah, he doesn't go out of his way to screw anyone over. Right. And he's also just kind of bumbling and incompetent. I mean, not necessarily intentionally, so but it just sort of happens. Well,

Lilly 59:08

it's who he is. Right? Yeah, he was the Forever he got kicked out of wizard school. He flunked out of out of wizard College.

Sara 59:16

He did flunk out of wizard college.

Lilly 59:18

And that's exactly who he is. He's just kind of incompetent, then. But he knows like he doesn't have a he knows it. That's mean, but it's true. He's not in these situations, because he thinks he's all powerful. Yeah, he's in these situations because he couldn't avoid them.

Sara 59:35

To be fair, to be fair, part of the reason why he flunked out of wizard school, and I feel like this is maybe a little minimized in the later books like it doesn't, but it's where in later books he flunked out of wizard school because of this, but also like just because he was generally bad at magic to begin with. But in this the main reason why he flunked out of wizard school is because he has this one spell. He knows this one spell, but it's to power are full and it won't let him like memorize any other spell. So he couldn't do magic after that.

Lilly 1:00:05

So the the way he memorized it is on a drunk he was drunkenly dared by his. I'm gonna call them frat buddies. I'm sure Pratchett doesn't call them that, but it's the spirit of probably Yeah. To crack open the like, forbidden Grimoire that contains the eight spills that created the universe, the Ark Tavo and so ruins window opens it and the spell just jumps into his head. portsmen Rinse when

1:00:39

Yep.

Sara 1:00:45

You can find us on social media on Twitter and Instagram at eviction sounds odd. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please leave a review at rate us on Apple podcasts.

Lilly 1:00:56

On our next episode, we'll be discussing the pray of Gods by Nicki Drayden. Hope to see you there.

Sara 1:01:02

Bye. Bye. I don't know why I was waving at you. Or not hanging up yet.

Lilly 1:01:10

I don't like hope to see you there.

Sara 1:01:12

We're still figuring things out.

Lilly 1:01:13

Yeah, it's fine for now. It's fine. I'm leaving it. I'm gonna stop recording though. Okay.