The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet & Of Honey and Wildfires

Episode 13

Release Date: 7/21/2021

The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet by Becky Chambers

Of Honey and Wildfires by Sarah Chorn

Your hosts reprise their discussion about Mat and Tylin from Wheel of Time, inspired by this (extremely spoilery) Reddit post.

They also chat about Of Honey and Wildfires by Sarah Chorn, and the emotional journey it brings the reader on. Lilly finally forced Sara to read The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet (much to everyone’s enjoyment). Lilly rants about sci fi (only a little bit), and your hosts heap praise on the crew of the Wayfarer.

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:05

Hello, and welcome to fiction fans, a podcast where we read books. And other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara 00:15

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 00:16

And this week, I'm going to start right away with my good thing, which is we are replacing our roof. I was going to wait until it was done. And my good thing would be that my roof has finished being replaced, except you are going to hear a nail gun periodically throughout this recording. My dad, my husband and a couple of friends are up there as we speak at I'm being a jerk taking your podcast break.

Sara 00:48

I appreciate you taking this podcast break.

Lilly 00:51

In my defense. I've been up there like eight to noon. Most days this week. You can't work in the middle of the day. It's way too hot. But yeah, roofing.

Sara 01:01

That's very exciting.

Lilly 01:03

That's my answer for all of our questions today. What am I drinking today? Roofing than anything lately, roofing shingle packages have instructions for how to roof and I can't imagine trying to put on a roof with nothing but those little diagrams on the back of a plastic package. That sounds awful. Who needs that?

Sara 01:28

I bet no, I bet that it's really useful if you're doing a small hobby project. Like if you want to put a roof on a chicken coop, for example.

Lilly 01:35

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah,

Sara 01:37

like you're not a professional redoing your entire roof. You just need a little bit.

Lilly 01:42

Okay, all right, fair enough. I was imagining trying to like, figure out how to cut around events without my dad's help. Oh, no,

Sara 01:53

no, thank you.

Lilly 01:55

I can barely manage the nail gun. He's giving it to me. And I try and then immediately mess up and say, I'll just carry the shingles around the roof. That'll be my contribution. I know I've I've been doing some nails. But I'm not as fast at it as men who can actually like extend their arms away from their body with this big old heavy nail gun. I have to like shuffle around with it. So it's directly underneath me all the time.

Sara 02:26

And your father has also been doing this for years. So it makes sense that he would be faster than you

Lilly 02:31

owe him. Yes, but also the amateurs. Oh, you're

Sara 02:34

your husband and

Lilly 02:36

yeah, and specs are friend that we've roped into helping. They're much better at it than me also, and they have been doing it for not as long because I've been roofing with my dad since I was technically 18 months old

Sara 02:51

little baby Lily holding the old guy.

Lilly 02:56

Hey, I'll tell you this. I'm not afraid of heights. Any anyway, sorry for the nail gun noises but not sorry, because screw you guys anything. Those are all of my answers. I'm not actually drinking roofing tar. I am drinking Pinot Grigio from a box because my mother is here and I am her daughter. Anyway, Sara, do you want to just breeze through you have some better answers than me? They're not all roof related.

Sara 03:28

They are not all roof related. Although I would at some point like to get a new roof. So I'm quietly jealous over here.

Lilly 03:34

You better get in line.

Sara 03:37

Well, I would get I would get my stepfather to do my roof except he's too busy redoing their bathroom. Yeah. So feel that? Yep. Anyway, my good thing is that my copy of the stage play of this house arrived. Finally, I bought it. Like a month and a half ago. It was coming from the UK. So that's why it took so long. And this house is a play that explores the dynamics of the British Parliament between 1974 and 1979. Wow, fun. I know. Okay, I know it sounds really dry. Like it sounds like the least interesting thing ever. But I watched it last year because it was streaming for a week as part of National theaters National Theater at Home program. And my god it was good like I watched it twice in the span of a week. I just I absolutely loved it. I would give Oregon's for them to put it like up on streaming again on their streaming service. And they have thus far not listened to my

Lilly 04:40

please. What are they going to do with an extra kid me?

Sara 04:43

I mean, you never know like, but I seriously it was so good, please National Theater. I know you listen to our podcast, please.

Lilly 04:54

For the record, I knew that I saw that bullet point coming which was why I stayed By dismissive answer,

Sara 05:02

I did figure that out.

Lilly 05:05

I know you knew. I don't want everyone to think I was just being rude to you.

Sara 05:11

Well, I mean, even if you had just been being rude, it does sound pretty darn dry. Like there's a reason why I had that bullet point.

Lilly 05:20

Right? Absolutely. But you needed an ID to explain it to everyone else.

Sara 05:25

I appreciate you taking one for the team,

Lilly 05:27

and other than roofing tar. What did you do this evening?

Sara 05:31

I was gonna make an Arnold Palmer with green tea from tandem tea. And I even made lemonade for it this weekend with lemons from my lemon trees, but it's cold and windy. So I just opened the bottle of red wines.

Lilly 05:45

Yeah, aren't Palmer's are delicious, but they're definitely a summer drink.

Sara 05:50

They are delicious. And they are a summer drink. I'm hoping that I can have one at some point. Also, because I have all of this lemonade that I know made

Lilly 05:59

it better heat up then it doesn't need to heat up informed the Bay Area.

Sara 06:05

I'm not sure Well, if it was last year, the Bay Area would have listened. This year is a return to form. In some respects.

Lilly 06:13

That's maybe good overall,

Sara 06:15

probably I don't think that this is the case for the rest of the like state or the rest of the West Coast really. But

Lilly 06:23

other than my texts complaining about how hot it's been read anything good lately.

Sara 06:29

I started greeting kings of the wild by Nicholas Ames, because I'm taking a break from Wheel of Time. And this book has been on my TBR for a while. But the friends talking fantasy podcast had an episode recently about how they were going to discuss this book for an upcoming episode. And I was like, this is a good incentive to read it. So I started reading it. It's great. It's like d&d meets classic rock. It's a lot of fun. Oh, that

Lilly 06:57

does sound good. Yeah,

Sara 06:59

I would recommend that.

Lilly 07:00

That's kings of a wild with a Y. Yes, for the record.

Sara 07:05

Yes, kings of the wild with a why there is a sequel out to called Bloody rows that I do own but have not read yet. Because obviously, I have not read the first book.

Lilly 07:17

To avoid spoilers for the Wheel of Time. Skip to 1636. Sarah, I am very upset with you because you sent me a well thought out argument for why I should stop making fun of that one part of we'll have time.

Sara 07:35

Sorry, not sorry. Someone on Twitter posted a link to a Reddit analysis. And if you're listening and you've heard previous episodes of ours, you may recall at one point in one episode, we discuss Matt and his relationship with Thailand or I discuss and Lily just kind of interjects comments because she hasn't actually read the

Lilly 07:58

books. Hey, that's my best skill, though.

Sara 08:01

It's a good skill. We'll link the Reddit post in our episode description. But it basically is arguing that Jordan was very intentional with how he treated Matt and Thailand and their relationship and really Thailands rape of Matt, and that there's no, although there's no actual like moralizing. It's because everything is from the point of view of this unreliable narrator who doesn't view what happened to him as rape, even though it was and it was a really thoughtful analysis that looked at the text in a way that I had not taken it on my first read. So you're welcome for not allowing you to continue to complain about it.

Lilly 08:50

This specific element anyway,

Sara 08:53

the specific elements,

Lilly 08:54

it really addressed. All of the issues, we brought up with that whole relationship point by point and had very thoughtful rebuttals for all of them. One of the specific this might have been extra meta, but there was another comment that you linked about how Robert Jordan was specifically addressing the issues involving rape culture in the 80s and 90s. And how this topic was supposed to make readers feel uncomfortable and then question why they felt uncomfortable and then realize some of the implications of course of rape, etcetera, etcetera. I think the reason why that didn't quite land for me, having not read a single word of Wheel of Time, is that there is no question I don't need to ask why do I feel uncomfortable? So maybe that is really just a an era thing. Could because when you first sent this to me, my immediate reaction was, it sounds like he kind of chickened out and didn't make it as blatant as he could have. Because you can definitely have actions in a book, even with a narrator that are displayed as strongly one way or the other by the author. And if that's, you know, word choice, and all of those things can really sway the readers experience of a situation, regardless of the people involved. But with the added context of the obviously, this wasn't written in 2020. You know, anytime recently, him having to go more subtle with it than I would have liked makes a lot of sense.

Sara 10:45

Yeah, I agree. And it's, that's not something that I mean, he, he's dead, you can't really go back and interrogate him about it. And you can't ask, well, if you had been writing it, you know, in this day and age, would those scenes have changed? But

Lilly 11:02

kind of reminds me? Oh, this is completely it's not completely off topic. A lot off topic. There's that pretty well known. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia bit because of the implications. If that means anything to you, it does

Sara 11:21

not, that does not mean, to me, that's fine. I at least I at least know the title of the show you're referencing, and that's about it.

Lilly 11:30

I was going to explain it anyway. So now I'm explaining it for you. And not just the theoretical listener who hasn't seen it. So It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, main characters, you are not supposed to like them. There are two men who have bought a boat so they can take women out into the ocean to sleep with them. And one of the characters says, Will, so you're forcing them? And the other one says no, of course, they'll be completely safe if they say no, but they won't say no, because of the implication. And then the other characters doesn't get it. It's just their banter back and forth of this clearly horrible scheme. But they're never in any danger. But that doesn't matter, because they won't know that because of the implication. And they suck, then that's why it's phonies. But the exploration of situational awareness. And, yeah, anyway, that is exploring a dynamic in a humorous way to make someone watching it stop and think, Oh, wait. Some people involved. Understand that everyone is perfectly safe, doesn't mean that that gets to be assumed by everyone. And it's a not entirely on topic, conversation, but it is I will, it landed better. It's definitely more recent. So it landed better for me.

Sara 13:06

I think also in that case, it's easier to poke, like you can poke fun at it, because it's over the top humerus, which is not the case with Wheel of Time. It's not, which

Lilly 13:19

is why I was surprised that that one comment in the thread, said his wife thought it would be funny to deal with it this way. And I was like, it's funny the word she was going no, that's the comment

Sara 13:33

is actually so I have the comment that you are referring to. And it's a quote that was taken from or not a quote, it's a paraphrase that was taken from a signing that Robert Jordan did, where he says that he wrote this scene as a humorous role reversal thing. And his wife, who was also his editor saw that it was a good discussion of sexual harassment and rape with comic undertones. I guess there's humor, and that's, that's where you're getting the word humorous.

Lilly 14:01

I didn't say the year right. They did not use the word funny. But they used enough synonyms that I wasn't thrilled with

Sara 14:06

comic undertones. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She She seemed to think it would be a good way to explain to men what this can be like for women showing their fear. Yeah, I think I think it's a kind of humor that doesn't always hit well, with a modern art audience. At least it didn't. It didn't for me, I didn't find it. I didn't find it particularly funny.

Lilly 14:27

I think. Like I said, if it wasn't so obvious where the problem was, yeah, I could see someone reading that and going, ha ha, ha, oh, you know, maybe 30 years ago, maybe that could happen. I get that. But it's hard to rely on a humorous reaction, like you said, from something where that isn't the genre. When you already know you're supposed to be laughing at the characters involved. oft, you know that what they're saying is ridiculous and wrong. So the show telling you,

Sara 15:06

you have a baseline, yeah, from which you're operating,

Lilly 15:09

whereas suddenly expecting your reader to go, Oh, this must be absurd and wrong, even though I haven't played any of the other situations off that way is that's a hard leap to expect your reader to take. But I really liked that interpretation of it. It's a lot better than the alternative.

Sara 15:32

I think I mean, this, this Reddit poster lays out a very good case for that being the interpretation that Robert Jordan was aiming for. And I think it's also something that maybe it's easier to see. I don't want to say in hindsight, but like on a second or third reread, when you're not when you're more familiar with the book and the characters and the context. And you're not as busy trying to just keep everyone straight in your head. Because there are a lot of names and places to keep straight.

Lilly 16:08

I bet. Yeah. That's a lot. A lot of book titles to keep straight. What are you doing now? Number 17.

Sara 16:18

I finished you. I've finished 13. So you're halfway done. I'm one away. I'm one away from being done.

Lilly 16:27

Oh, page count wise, you're

Sara 16:29

halfway done page. Count wise. I'm maybe two thirds. Okay. So the first book that we'll be talking about in this episode, is a book titled of honey and wildfires by Sarah Warren. And I read a Sarah torn book earlier this year, Sara finos limit, and I loved torrents writing so much that I was like Lilly, Lilly, we got to read something by her. We have to put this on the podcast. So I bullied Billy into into adding a serotonin to the calendar.

Lilly 17:08

That's all right, I believed you into the next one.

Sara 17:12

And you believe me into the podcast. So I feel like there's a little cut a little bit of leeway there.

Lilly 17:17

You're flying on borrowed time with that excuse, my dear?

Sara 17:21

No. But I'm gonna use it for as long as I can. All right. This is the first book in a series. There are two books that are out that follow. I think actually, it may just stay a trilogy. I'm not sure if torn is intending to write anything else. Although I own the other two books. I obviously haven't read them yet. So I can't actually speak to how they end or how the series ends.

Lilly 17:49

This is not related to Sarah finos lament though, right?

Sara 17:53

No, this is this is completely different. All right. I think the next book that follows Serafina this limit comes out sometime late this year, next year, at some point in the near future. Not far off future.

Lilly 18:06

Okay. of honey and wildfires. I'm going to start this entire conversation with this is an extremely atmospheric and emotional book. It does what it does very well. But I was reading this in a time where I was not in the right headspace to truly appreciate it. There's a lot of crying in this book. It's extremely heart wrenching. But this is this is summer Lily. i My parents are visiting. We're having parties every other night. I am not in a quiet, introspective. I feel like crying for a little while mood. And so I definitely did not appreciate this book as much as I would if it was a bad week at work. And it's been raining for the fourth month straight. And maybe one of my cats needs to go you know, there's a song you put on when you want to cry. And that is the mood you should go into this book with

Sara 19:06

you do how it's it's heart wrenching, as you said, lately have to be prepared for that. Yeah, well, and

Lilly 19:13

I wasn't like in a bad headspace in that this book was bad for my mental health. I was just not, I couldn't really engage with the content. Because I was I have been in a really good mood. You were too happy. Yeah. Things are good. The sun is shining. Trust me, I will pick up this book again, or maybe the next one in the series when that time comes around, but because we're reading on a schedule this this was when I read it. And I know I did not properly engaged with the content because of that.

Sara 19:50

Yeah, this is the kind of book that I would really like to go to a remote island in Scotland, where it's gray and rainy all the time. And like curl up in the window watching the way I was reading this.

Lilly 20:01

Yeah, that's a great mood for this book. And that I mean, that's a me problem. I wanted to preface this by saying my, my commentary on this book is definitely going to be colored by the fact that I was not engaging with it how I think, really would do it justice. And anyway, I just wanted to start with that, because it's a very good book.

Sara 20:26

So what you're saying is that we should put Book Two on the calendar for you know, the winter.

Lilly 20:32

Yeah, except not near any of the holidays, because I'm in a good mood, then to march. There's nothing like really good going on in March and you expect it to be spring, but it's not yet. worst month.

Sara 20:46

I'm not sure if I have such dim views on March, but

Lilly 20:50

April's pretty bad too. But there's a couple of sunny days, you have different weather patterns, then me also,

Sara 20:56

this is very true.

Lilly 20:58

Anyway, it was, as Sarah has the bullet point later that I'm going to shamelessly steal gorgeously written. Some of the pros was absolutely stunning. In this book.

Sara 21:11

I think search horn writes grief. And, like the, not the happy, fluffy side of love, but like the sharp painful side of love. So well. I just I was highlighting, like, every other sentence just because it was so pretty. And so atmospheric. I think she just has an utterly beautiful

Lilly 21:37

turn of phrase. One of the other really incredible things about this book is the super fun world she builds. And I can't even call it fun because the book is so sad. But the world is super fun. Anyway,

Sara 21:50

I loved the setting. It was unique and interesting. And it just like all of the little details that she dropped about it were really intriguing.

Lilly 22:04

And she doesn't over explain it either. I definitely still had questions about some of the specific mechanics, but it was consistent in a way that that didn't bother me at all. And I really loved the balance that she struck because when you're in a world, the people there probably don't know the perfect ins and outs of how this physical liquid manifestation of magic performs, which is sort of how I describe shine. This the substance that is magic oil, yeah, magic oil, but also a huge commodity and sort of the, the main conflict of the book is it takes place where shine is being mined in the exploitation that follows that and a very, a very nuanced look at how life would go in that sort of situation.

Sara 23:00

It really felt like we were reading a fantasy Wild West book, which is fun, because we just read another fantasy Wild West book the episode which will is not out yet but will be soon on American hippo. So it was nice to contrast, like the two different versions of the Wild West. Only this one actually took place in what felt like an authentic West and not the South.

Lilly 23:26

It was the west of this location. I didn't get the feeling that it was supposed to be earth. No, I

Sara 23:32

don't I don't think it was supposed to be Earth. But it

Lilly 23:34

definitely was invoke west. So

Sara 23:38

I just meant that American hippo felt like a wild west book but wasn't actually taking place in the West.

Lilly 23:44

One of the things that I kept wondering and is never really answered, and maybe it never will. And that's fine. Is okay, the shine. This magic oil affects people who are in close contact with it over periods of time, primarily by changing your color. So in this small territory, where oil is the main or only industry, other than whoring, which I get why it's called that because it's the wild west but our

Sara 24:19

oil is also used it is an additive in food, like it's

Lilly 24:24

used their lane medical supply.

Sara 24:28

It's used in their guns like it's everywhere. So it turns

Lilly 24:32

people pastel. Everyone actually lives here is some pastel shade.

Sara 24:38

I wasn't using them as pastel. I was viewing them as a very vibrant color or like a dark color.

Lilly 24:44

No, I guess because some of the first people we meet are lilac, not purple, lilac, ice and then a lot of the blues are described in very light colors as well. I guess there are Ruby reds, but Okay, but people turn colors, they're like, that's not a like horrible way of describing skin tone, I promise, like actual rainbow colors. And I really wondered if the colors meant anything if I was supposed to pick up on that, and I didn't. Or if there was some sort of system that maybe shorn knew that I didn't have to pick up on, but there, it was still there under the surface. And I wondered that, and one of my bigger points for maybe it does mean something is that families tended to turn the same color. And I thought that was very interesting. And maybe there was something there. There doesn't have to be. I just really liked that hook.

Sara 25:47

It was a neat concept. And I'll be interested to see how or whether that plays out in the subsequent novels. Absolutely.

Lilly 26:00

I was about to say a spoiler thing. There is another reason why I'm very excited to read more, and I'm not going to talk about it yet.

Sara 26:08

You just have to continue listening to find out.

Lilly 26:13

Okay, I have a a weird non sequitur comment.

Sara 26:17

What's your weird non sequitur comment?

Lilly 26:19

This book kind of reminded me of who fears death. How so the point of view, the perspective of this book, that's the only simple but the way, one of the main characters, Cassandra, her sections are from first person perspective, looking back on her childhood, and that was a very similar dynamic with who fears death, because it's the main character is also retro actively telling the story of her childhood through most of the book. And so that dynamic was very striking to me. But also, this whole book wasn't in first person, it kind of it, it didn't kind of bounce back, it absolutely bounced back and forth between first and third person, which, when I first noticed it, I wrote it down that this is happening, but it didn't actually bother me at all. It's very consistent with which characters are first person in which characters or third person and I think that's why it worked for me.

Sara 27:23

Yeah, that's not something that I really noticed beyond just a kind of, like cursory glance, you notice it and then just move on. Because like you say it, it is consistent internally. And it's very specific characters have very specific points of view. And it just, it works somehow. I'm not sure if I've read another book with this alternating point of view system.

Lilly 27:49

I mean, I've read fanfiction that does it MIT Sure. Don't do it. Well. That's true.

Sara 27:59

I've read fanfiction that does it. I'm not entirely sure that the fanfiction that does it does it on purpose? And Jordan? Absolutely. does this on purpose.

Lilly 28:08

Oh, yeah. It's completely on purpose and done to very good effect. But I think in contrast, most of the times where I've seen it done, it's not good. It's true. When it does fade into the background so thoroughly, that is a huge compliment. Right now we're not saying the point of view is unnoticeable. We're saying, My God, she did this incredible thing, and we didn't even notice it happening.

Sara 28:31

Yeah, it's not something that you expect to be done well, but it is done well.

Lilly 28:36

And I even Yeah, I even wrote that note going. Oh, but no. Okay, before we get into our spoiler conversation, Sarah, why should you read this book,

Sara 28:45

if you want beautiful prose, and a fantasy, wild west setting, and all of the emotions if you want to cry, and cry a lot? You should read this book?

Lilly 28:58

My answer for this question was the word emotions between tubas which is completely genuine. Like I said, I should have been reading this at 2am. After a long day, I would have been much more into it, but purely from a purely from an emotional standpoint. This book rides so hard on the emotional journey, it takes you through that if you are reading it in chunks in between party life, it's not going to hit quite right. Yeah. But I'm looking forward to reading the rest of them. And I'm going to say maybe not scheduled so that we can just so I can read it. When I could appreciate it.

Sara 29:41

I think I think that's fair, especially given that our calendar is very full. All that

Lilly 29:46

to to avoid spoilers for of honey and wildfire. Skip to 4450

Sara 29:58

Okay, now that now that we're in this boiler section. What is with us in reading books where everyone dies. This was another book where there was a lot of death. And I was not. Maybe I should have been expecting it given that this book has been so heavy on the theme of grief. But I just like all of Cassandra's family and all of Andy's family dies. And I wish it had been, it had been set up like this, it didn't come out of the blue. It had been set up. You probably, if you were more perceptive than me, you know, you wouldn't have been surprised. But yeah, I was I was not expecting them all to die all at once. Just yeah,

Lilly 30:48

box screen to screen that was rough.

Sara 30:51

Yeah, I thought, I think that was part of what made it so rough. Like I was expecting that when they died, we would see it and you just don't like it's hinted at. And then a couple of chapters later, you've you find out, like what actually happened. But we need to, we need to read more happy things. But it's my fault. I put this on the calendar.

Lilly 31:15

Okay. It's sure not a happy book. But Matthew's ending though. Matthew being the, the antagonist, the grandfather of one of the main characters of both of the main characters. Oh, that's true, both of the main characters, but one of them doesn't know it. And the other one thinks he's his father. It's anyway, there's some family drama. This book is mostly family drama. So the character of Matthew is talked about through the entire book, either specifically, with Arland, saying my father, or the other plotline following Cassandra discussing the owner of Cheyenne territory. They're the same person, we hear so much about him. And then we finally actually see him at the end. And I thought that not grand reveal, because he's exactly who we expected him to be at that point. But it was very rewarding, having that character sort of finally step on screen, and fill this role that has been built for him through the entire book. And then Arlynn murders him, Cassandra tries and Ireland does it, and it's the best. There's a couple pages in between, but holy shit, his ending felt so good.

Sara 32:39

It's so well deserved, like, if ever a man needed to be murdered, it was it was Matthew.

Lilly 32:45

Well, every awful horrible thing he does, he claims to be for his offspring or for his lineage. And so then or his legacy, his legacy, but specifically the people carry he always has his daughter, his daughter, and then his daughter's children.

Sara 33:03

Well, he's totally he talks a lot of I think he uses legacy in the book. He does. Yeah,

Lilly 33:06

but he claims to care about his bloodline, his offspring, but he clearly, I mean, well, it's completely self centered. His dialogue is always about his daughter and her children. But all of his actions are about himself. Yeah, it's, it's he's very self serving. And at the end, his grandchildren show the ultimate action of saying, you're actually selfish. None of this was for us. We don't want it by killing him. Destroying what kept shine territory, his company isolated and gave him a monopoly over it. Or their monopoly. He said, they were going to inherit, it was all for them, or Arland specifically, it was clearly all bullshit. And then calling him on it, and fucking ending him felt so good. That's probably for the reader, the highest moment in the book. Both of the characters have been through shit and we'll go through more. But for me, that was just it was so satisfying. That felt so good.

Sara 34:22

It was it was a nice it's nice to see in a in a book where all of the characters are just like put through the wringer. It was nice to finally see someone get a deserved come up and it's

Lilly 34:36

even when the characters are remembering happy times. It's always sad, because they're talking about how they're so fleeting. Like I think Matthew's death is the only moment where you just feel completely good about it in the entire book. I would be remiss if I did not bring up how much I absolutely love Elroy Elroy, it

Sara 35:05

was fantastic. He starts off as just kind of a side character. But by the end of the book, you're like, oh my god, I really want to know where this, like where, where his story is going.

Lilly 35:20

I hesitate to even say, Ark, because he doesn't necessarily go through change as much as we as readers, learn more about him. But he's introduced as a bodyguard, just some hired Schmuck, for the company for Arlen's grandfather, and he's kind of babysitting Arlynn. And all he really is is hired muscle.

Sara 35:43

I mean, he's, he's nice about it. Sure. But friendly.

Lilly 35:46

But I wouldn't say friends.

Sara 35:49

No. And he doesn't have a lot of standout character moments in the beginning. He's just kind of there in the background.

Lilly 35:56

He sure does get shot protecting Ireland,

Sara 35:59

he sure does get shot protecting Ireland. That's very true.

Lilly 36:02

That's about all that he does, really for the first 80% of the book. But the bandits, Chris Charlotte's Father, give him a huge dose of shine, which gets him high and makes him an addict, but also means he can survive the gunshot wound.

Sara 36:23

No, he was shot with shine, because they use shine and their gun is how I thought

Lilly 36:27

they were shine bullets, but I didn't think that got the person who got shot high. I thought they I mean, they also dosed him with shine, so that he would be docile while they returned him.

Sara 36:41

They couldn't, they could have done that too. But my impression was that like getting shot with shine was like injecting yourself with a whole bunch of shine. Shine bullet

Lilly 36:52

rules are a little fuzzy. I'm pretty sure they also gave him a dose afterwards.

Sara 37:00

It's probably a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B.

Lilly 37:03

But it doesn't matter. I frankly don't care. The next time we see him, he is doing some really horrible things. Because his boss told him to. And that kind of tracks with all we know about him up until that point. And this is at the very end, he was one of the people who attacks Cassandra's home. And he murders most of the main characters in the book, to put it bluntly, but then we see him afterwards. And he really has a crisis.

Sara 37:38

He's struggling with what he did, and how he can reconcile that with who he is. And this shine addiction that he's now that he now is suffering from no fault of his own, really, literally no fault of his own. And his father was a shine addict. So like he has seen what that can do to a person and to a family. And he's essentially like questioning everything that he's believed up until now

Lilly 38:07

and he and Arlen have a really wonderful moment. Arlynn can recognize that he's he's going through withdrawal and really needs just someone Elroy needs someone so bad. She goes to the like, stuck up kid of his boss, that I don't think that's anyone's first choice for comforting shoulder, but just all you had,

Sara 38:30

I really hope we get more Elroy in the next

Lilly 38:34

God His ending. So this series is called the SEF. Eight Chronicles or something, I

Sara 38:41

believe, Song songs of stuff eight, I

Lilly 38:43

believe, and Arlynn helps Elroy through withdrawals by telling him stories of Seth eighth this world tree for lack of a better term. And Elroy ends the book by heading off into the wilderness to find self aid. And if that's not the plot of the next book, I don't know what I'll do.

Sara 39:08

It has to come up at some point like it has to,

Lilly 39:11

I am prepared to read anything just to get to more Elroy, I really want to know what happens with him. Most of the characters are more dimensional. Even Matthew has his dimensionality. He's complicated, but you I still felt good about his ending.

Sara 39:32

I mean, he's complicated, but he's, he's still very clearly dad.

Lilly 39:37

The other characters, I would say adults, mostly Arlynn and Cassandra are both, you know, children thrust into the situation. But all of the adults are very well depicted as trying their best when they're not at their best selves. There's a lot of nuance to everyone. They're doing things that could without context be pretty mean. But because you, as the reader have an understanding for the greater context where they're coming from as people, I actually found them all to be incredibly sympathetic. Even even in their low moments. I was very sympathetic for them. Everyone except Matthew, I would just like to say that for the one example, is Annie Cassandra's aunt who ends up raising her the night that Cassandra's father brings her to Annie. She does not take it. Well. She is not very sweet to Cassandra, she is not just not happy about having a child dumped on her doorstep. No, especially because she thought, Chris, the father was dead. So oh, by the way, my brother is not dead. Also, he has a kid. And also she's my problem now. And you can tell this woman is trying so hard. And it doesn't work because she's only human. And, of course, as a child, that was really rough for Cassandra. But even as an adult because Cassandra was an adult narrating the scene, she understood. And I really liked that. How sympathetic, Cassandra was able to be for the adults that didn't always do right by her, even if they were trying their best.

Sara 41:27

There's another moment where Imogen, who is the mother of anthy Cassandra's best friend and eventual lover turns her back on Cassandra and the entire family because Cassandra's father, Chris has just gotten imagens husband killed. And like, it's so hard for Cassandra, and you feel for her, but at the same time, you're like, I totally understand where Imogen is coming from like, of course, she doesn't want to have anything to do with the family of the man who got her husband killed. Like, of course, she doesn't

Lilly 42:02

not just got her husband killed, like, basically murdered him. Not specifically him,

Sara 42:08

but not not intentionally. But I mean, there were direct actions. Yeah, it was it was a line, a straight line from Point A to Point death

Lilly 42:20

pool. And then you get Chris, the man who did that. The absentee father of both Cassandra and Arlynn, who is actually an incredibly sweet and good father, when he's there. You don't get full points, if you're only a dad 10% of the time, even if even 10 five, one, like a very small percent of the time. But when you do see him interacting with his children, he gets full points for that.

Sara 42:55

And to be sure, it's not entirely his fault, but he's an absentee father. I mean, with Ireland, for example, like he thought Ireland was dead. Yeah. Not his fault at all. Not his fault at all. And with Cassandra, like He's a wanted criminal. And he rightfully thinks that his sister can provide her a better life. And he can, you know, on the run,

Lilly 43:19

yeah, it's, He's not wrong. I would say, okay, his fault that he became a terrorist, but you also get where he's coming from with how terrible Matthew is, I would probably want to blow his stuff up to

Sara 43:34

I think Chris is a really good example of the fact that like, you can do the wrong thing for the right reason, but it still ends up being the wrong thing. He has a comment about, I thought I was doing the right thing. I thought I was a great liberator, I didn't realize I was the villain in my own story until it was too late to change anything. Because like he, he does all of he takes all of these actions that result in a huge amount of deaths. And you find out later that Matthew was kind of orchestrated at all, but Chris certainly doesn't know that. And it's possible that Chris could have prevented some of that if he had just, you know, thought a little bit more about what he was doing or taking different actions.

Lilly 44:18

Absolutely. Being so emotionally invested on people who are on opposite sides of a conflict is a really rough place to be as a reader, but Charn sort of holds your hand and brings you through it with such really lovely prose and very insightful characters that we're seeing the world through that it creates a really lovely Tableau. Way back at the beginning of this podcast, it was suggested that we discuss our top 10 books you And one of my top 10 books of all time is The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet by Becky Chambers. And I absolutely insisted that Sarah read it because it's so good. And all I ever want to do is sit rereading this book for forever and ever.

Sara 45:21

I mean, I wasn't arguing too hard, when he said, added to this calendar. And it was lovely. It was really cozy. Like, it was the kind of book that you can just curl up with.

Lilly 45:32

That's so interesting to me, because there's definitely danger. There is

Sara 45:36

danger. But I almost felt like I was watching it on TV. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't real danger. It was real danger. Like the characters are very definitely in danger. But I did have the very strong feeling that everything was going to be alright, in the end. And that was 95% true. That's not even totally true. It's not totally true. But, but I did like that still, it felt comforting in a way that not a lot of books do. I don't know how to explain it.

Lilly 46:12

It's definitely not emotionally complicated. In the way that the characters, the main characters, this takes place on an industrial spaceship with a small crew who are trying to basically build a freeway.

Sara 46:28

You know what it is? It felt like slice of life. Yeah, a slice of life show

Lilly 46:34

is just a group of people who are really sweet to each other. And sure, there might be some pirates occasionally, that may or may not murder them all. They don't actually murder them all. I don't think that's a spoiler. But they don't know that at the time. But the crew itself are all very supportive and positive and understanding. And I just like watching people be friends. Okay.

Sara 47:01

Yeah, it was nice to have characters who are generally good people doing if not good, then at least not bad thing.

Lilly 47:13

No, they really are just working class construction workers but in space. I will Sarah, you know that I'm weird about sci fi.

Sara 47:22

I think our listeners might find out too.

Lilly 47:25

I made it into that a few times. But this book is really, to me. What sci fi is this book is science fiction. Becky Chambers herself does not have a science background. But both of her parents are, are extremely embedded in that. Just on the back of the book. We have an astrobiology educator and an aerospace engineer. It's hard to get more sciency than that. And an Apollo era rocket scientist, I'm assuming that is doubled up with one of the previous ones and not that she has three parents. Maybe she does? I don't know.

Sara 48:05

I mean, I have three parents. So

Lilly 48:06

why shouldn't she? I it's phrased there's a comma in there. I don't know. However, she's listing it. There's a lot of science people raising this person. And I think that definitely shines through. Like I said, She's this book is not exploring the quantum physics or anything. But all of the theories feel very reasonable in a way that I quite enjoy.

Sara 48:35

It feels grounded in the possible.

Lilly 48:38

It's not space fantasy.

Sara 48:42

I think what I really like about it is that this book does a really good job of not falling into a human centric point of view. Like is also very good. Yeah. humans, humans are not the dominant race. They're just the dominant species. Like they're, they're just this one little minor blip,

Lilly 49:01

but they're also not the downtrodden underdogs, because that also has main character energy that humans do not deserve.

Sara 49:09

That's also human centric. Yeah.

Lilly 49:12

There's this really wonderful scene between the navigator and Dr. Chef, who is the doctor and the chef. I'm sure you never would have guessed.

Sara 49:23

And also one of my favorite characters, but we'll be talking about that later.

Lilly 49:27

Dr. Chef nodded. You love them and you understand them. But sometimes you wish they could be more like ordinary people. Speaking of course, about humans, and that's just very good. It's so good. This book is so good. It was very good. The aliens in this book are also truly different species. I've complained before, probably in praise of this book. about what I now understand is a TV Tropes page called rubber, forehead aliens, where the alien species are just clearly humans with some prosthetics on their face. But they have the same society or their, you know, one of the human cultures but in space. And that gets that's not an alien that's just a human in space with some rubber on their forehead. But the different species we meet in this book are actually feel truly different. societally, and culturally, in a way that is so much fun.

Sara 50:39

I this is a little bit of a of a off topic, segue. But I think that Charlie Jane Anders has a an article on Tor about that very thing, like the aliens with bits of rubber on their head. In science fiction, she is also an author that I would like to read for the podcast, by the way, I'm giving you advanced, advanced warning. Sounds like I agree

Lilly 51:03

with her.

Sara 51:04

Actually, I take it back. It's not an article on tour. I think it's an article in Den of Geek where she was talking about her recently published science fiction novel victory is greater than death.

Lilly 51:16

Sounds good, too. i Yes. She sounds very smart, and intelligent and cultured. And like all of her opinions are perfect. From what I have heard of her.

Sara 51:27

I'm I haven't read anything of hers yet. But I'm a big fan.

Lilly 51:31

One of the other things I love about this setting is that technology is fallible. I personally split science fiction technology into two camps, you get the sort of industrial tool, sci fi, and then you get the Apple Store sci fi, where it's people just kind of waving their hands and then shapes appear, and then suddenly, the computer can tell them exactly what will happen in five minutes based on projections, or you know, that kind of nonsense garbage. Everyone knows, when you have a new tool, I don't care how many touch screens are involved. In fact, the number of touch screens probably makes it worse. As far as fallibility goes, something will go wrong, or you know, Excel, it has having a glitch. And even though all the equations are right, for some reason, things are still looking weird. And you realize that it was pulling from the wrong spreadsheet or something. It doesn't matter how advanced you are, there should still be issues. And not deus ex machina issues,

Sara 52:41

just like like low level issues throughout the entire story. I entirely agree. I also like just how mundane it is. Like, it's not that technology is all of this fancy, like high level stuff. You just you have it permeates throughout all levels of society and all levels of usage, which just it doesn't, it doesn't feel like it is in some kind of clinically white spaceship.

Lilly 53:12

The Apple store the Apple story, yes. Which is not what science fiction should be. That is based fantasy. Also, like you said, it's mundane, we have some extremely cool, high tech sci fi being used to build freeways. And yes, of course, they're punching through subspace and weaving space time together. But they're doing that with a big old drill. fly from one point to another to do that, that idea that when once we do have this technology, we're going to be using it for the equivalence of long haul truckers, not you know, figuring out how to clone people and

Sara 53:50

all that it's, it's using it for the day to day things that make ordinary life better,

Lilly 53:55

frankly, for commerce. It's not science, for science sake,

Sara 53:59

it's not for sending billionaires into space.

Lilly 54:02

Oh, well, I wasn't gonna go there.

Sara 54:05

I'm gonna go there.

Lilly 54:09

I think there's something that we see a lot when we get to a future society, a futuristic society, where suddenly scientists are at the top of society. And everyone's priority is just learning and progression. But that's really not how anything has. Once we Yeah, we're going to use this technology for practical means, like building freeways. My next note is just the word algae in all caps with an exclamation point because I really love that that's one of their main.

Sara 54:41

Like, how that that's the fuel source. Yeah, it makes so much sense powers all of their spaceships because they couldn't grow it. It was a

Lilly 54:50

neat touch. And so one of their one of the crew members job is just to maintain the algae vats and make sure they have a product of algae constant Utley going so they can fuel flying from point A to point B. Now, their giant subspace freeway drill requires some space nonsense gasoline. But you know, that's fine.

Sara 55:13

It's understandable that something that takes up more energy would need something a little more high powered.

Lilly 55:18

Absolutely. And speaking of familiarity, the main I won't say conflict of the book. But the main thrust of the book is that this small crew has been hired to create a new gate into a previously civil war torn area, because there's a heck of a lot of space gasoline there. Now, that's never happened in the history of Earth. So

Sara 55:47

no, that's, you know, that's total fantasy.

Lilly 55:50

No one ever wants space gasoline. Seems pretty unlikely

Sara 55:53

to me.

Lilly 55:55

There are so many other little details that are just so perfect for the world that chambers has created. Bathrooms are designated by species that use the term Sapiens just to refer to people because, you know, there's a lot of different kinds of people. They are all Sapiens, though, they have

Sara 56:15

a different word for or they have different measurements of time. So there's the standard versus like the human year, or Yeah, solar year.

Lilly 56:23

And like all of these things just make so much sense given this spacefaring. I don't even want to say culture, because there are several different cultures way of life. Yeah, there is, of course, the it's called the GC. It's, it's the Star Trek Federation, you know, whatever. It's a bunch of different species. And they're all friends, not friends necessarily, but they work together at least. And they all have history. And humans are the embarrassing, not super competent ones. And it's just all so good. And all of this is just the setting. The the story of the book itself is I don't want to I can't get into it too much. I don't think I can stop myself from going too deep, too fast.

Sara 57:09

I mean, we could just move into the spoilers.

Lilly 57:12

I think there's one quote that we both highlighted that you should absolutely use to send us into the spoiler section. Oh, but first,

Sara 57:19

I was gonna say, why should you I was going to ask because you were the one who was really championing this book. I loved it, too. Don't get me wrong, but I feel I feel like because this is your book, you should answer the question. Why should you read this book? Oh,

Lilly 57:33

because they actually did science fiction correctly for once. A less aggressive way of phrasing it is that you get some really incredible ensemble cast characters, and a mix of adventure plotline with a little bit of mystery thrown in. We haven't even gotten to Rosemary, the main character, and you have some questions about her going into it from the very first page. And that sort of pulls you through the whole book so perfectly. And the whole time this crew is doing their job being really sweet to each other. Not always, I mean, of course they have conflict, but it's always from a good intention to place which like Sarah said, it's just really cozy. You don't feel bad when you're reading this book is it's just I want to know what happens next. And I really want to see more of this world and oh my gosh, the and risks are the reptilian aliens. And they sound so cool. And I would really love to be best friends with one pretty much read the book for Sussex who was the crew member who's an anti risk. That's why you should read this book for Sussex.

Sara 58:49

So the quote that we both pulled out Dr. Chef is talking about some ginger that he has been growing on the ship. Although I have to admit, I like eating the flowers much more than the root far too potent for my taste nice and crunchy though. Ashby turned his head. You know ginger is an accent Right? Like a spice? What? No, really? Did you try to eat it whole? Oh dear. Yes, Dr. Chef rumbled a laugh. I thought it was some sort of spicy potato

Lilly 59:25

to avoid spoilers for the Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. Skip to one night to 40 I think the rest of our discussion of this book has been broken down into character appreciation hour. And then what we loved about each of them

Sara 59:45

the character ism that's we're really good

Lilly 59:47

at Yes, absolutely incredible. I I'll start with Sussex because I mentioned her up in the non spoiler section, but that's kind of just it. I just really love her a lot and risks They are an alien species that are extremely affectionate and sort of Omni sexual. They raise their children in like huge tribes. They don't necessarily raise their biological children and risks will sort of have a life stage where they reproduce. But then it's a different life stage where they raise children. And so you just sort of have ranches where there are just flocks of little baby lizards. Except I shouldn't use that word because it's rude. But they're cute. They're cute little feathered lizards. And there's the various elders raise them and then they go off into the world and they all bang everybody. It's a cool society.

Sara 1:00:48

I think what I like about Sussex was her emotional intelligence. There's a scene early on where Kizzy who is another crew member, and rosemary who is the human who is kind of like the reader substitute and view into this world are going shopping. And Rosemary is the new clerk for the ship. And Kizzy wants to buy fancy soap. And Rosemary says, Actually, I don't think that I can give you the funds for this fancy soap, if it's just going to be yours like that has to come from your personal funds. And Kizzy starts kind of being shitty about it. And Sussex is like, no, Rosemary has a point. Like you wouldn't appreciate someone undermining you when you're talking about your job. So you shouldn't do it to someone else. And Kizzy. Like because he understands because he cuz he then can say, Oh, you're right. You know, I apologize, rosemary, but I like that Sussex has the emotional, like intelligence to understand how Rosemary is feeling and articulate that.

Lilly 1:01:56

And also the diplomacy to handle that friction. So well. She won't say she diffused it because they weren't fighting. Exactly. But they were definitely disagreeing. It wasn't

Sara 1:02:11

like a sharp conflict. But it was a conflict.

Lilly 1:02:15

She does that quite a bit throughout the book, just sort of relating to people on their level in a way that is, well extremely effective. This book really does value all types of intelligence, insists X is a great example of emotional intelligence. But it's really a great read for everyone has a different skill, and they should be appreciated for what they do. Well,

Sara 1:02:42

all of the crew brings something different to the table. And that just because they have different skills doesn't mean that that any of them are valued less. Absolutely. Although I have to say that as as I have said, My favorite was Dr. Chef purely because I found Dr. Chef so and so relatable with his love of tea, and how he just wants to spend his vacation gardening. I was like, Yes, Dr. Chef, you got me. I am you. You are me. In alien science fiction form.

Lilly 1:03:15

Dr. Chef was cool. I also love how his species, I do not remember the name of it right now. Dr. Chef is a he at the time of this book. But his species goes through different transitions based on life stage. So they're all born female. And then eventually Pubert Is there a verb for puberty? Goes through puberty. That's awful. That's too many words, puberty into a male.

Sara 1:03:45

sounds horrible.

Lilly 1:03:49

And then they end that sort of middle age. And then there's there's some other stages, I forget them all. I really like how

Sara 1:03:57

His species is set up as a counterpoint to the human race, and that they're both very heavily war focused and antagonistic. But the humans were able to get over that and look outside of themselves. And Dr. Chefs race spent all of their time fighting each other and are dying off because of it. And it's like this is this is what could have happened to humans. Had they not been a little bit more open minded and accepting.

Lilly 1:04:32

He's such a tragic character. He has some lines about watching his his daughters go to war. And that is just an all die thing. Yeah. Well, he he's one of the last members of his species. There's a line about how they probably only have about 100 years left until they're extinct. And it's truly heartbreaking.

Sara 1:04:55

I mean, if you think about it, he's really a tragic figure. Like he's not necessarily he He doesn't present himself like that. But his story is is rough. Yeah.

Lilly 1:05:05

Oh, Hans as well. Oh, Han is the Navigator. I might have called Sussex, the navigator earlier, but they work together. Oh, Han does the subspace stuff.

Sara 1:05:18

I think Sussex is like the normal like, everyday navigation. Yeah,

Lilly 1:05:23

she's the pilot. But Ohana is cool. I also love that when Ohan was introduced to Rosemary, they were introduced by the pronouns. And Rosemary was trying really hard to be woke, and so used the gender neutral, G J. Dou. G Sure. Is that actually how you pronounce that? I've never heard it out loud.

Sara 1:05:47

I've always said xar. I don't know if that's right. I mean, I've never heard it out loud either. So well. And we all know that my pronunciation. By default pronunciation is not necessarily the default pronunciation of

Lilly 1:06:00

everyone else. Well, either G or Z. Rosemary uses and is immediately corrected by the crew because Ohan is not gender neutral. Ohana is plural. And I love That's so cruel. They are a host and the symbiotic virus and the virus is what makes their species capable of navigating through subspace. And that's just such a neat concept and love it.

Sara 1:06:30

This book is just full of deep concepts.

Lilly 1:06:33

It is I realized I don't talk about Farscape enough on this show. But I definitely do get Farscape vibes from it a little bit.

Sara 1:06:41

I've not actually watched Farscape. Well, I mean, the answer to your missing half Have you watched? Usually no. So hey, I

Lilly 1:06:48

heard about this. It's, it's kind of a niche nerdy show. But you might like it. It's from Britain is called Doctor Who?

Sara 1:07:03

I've never heard of. It's not like we go to a doctor who convention every year. That's that's not, you know, we don't do that.

Lilly 1:07:11

You said you don't watch TV. So I assume you've never seen it.

Sara 1:07:15

I said the answer to that question is usually no, not exclusively. No. In case you haven't been able to tell, yes, I'm a huge Doctor Who fan.

Lilly 1:07:27

Oh, Han is also a tragic character. Because they are well, at the end of their lifecycle because of the virus. There's a line that this species, the symbiote, semeiotic, something like that these pears only lived to be about what is it 40 years, whereas otherwise, they've lived to be over 100.

Sara 1:07:50

It's not very long. But this virus has taken on, like religious connotations. And they think that it's not something that they need or want to learn how to cure because the fact that they contract this virus means that they should have this virus

Lilly 1:08:09

there, that's also practically a superpower. So I can't really blame them for coming to that conclusion.

Sara 1:08:15

I mean, except for the fact that if you get rid of the virus, like if you cure the virus, if you heal the virus, they still have the superpower. That's true, but Ohan as we meet them in this book, Ohan is in the process of, of dying from this virus.

Lilly 1:08:29

And they're, I wouldn't say completely okay with it. They're definitely scared.

Sara 1:08:33

They're scared of dying, but like that's, they believe that that's what is the right thing that needs to happen.

Lilly 1:08:41

They're afraid but not interested in avoiding it. Yeah.

Sara 1:08:44

And at one point, the crew actually finds a cure. And Ohan says, Absolutely not. I don't want to take this to take this cure. This is anathema to me, you know, don't know.

Lilly 1:08:58

It's heretical. Yeah. And so they, they continue on, they do not go gentle into that good night. One of my favorite characters is Jenks. We talked a little bit about Kizzy, who was the mechanical engineer, whereas Jenks is the software engineer. They definitely work together most of the time, but they have different specialties.

Sara 1:09:24

I think they're both kind of mechanical engineers. But my understanding was that Kizzy was the senior engineer and Jenks was the junior engineer.

Lilly 1:09:34

They were introduced with different titles when Rosemary came aboard the ship, and it was different kinds of tech. Mech tech, whatever sci fi bullshit were they used because he

Sara 1:09:45

always seems to be the one who does more fixing though.

Lilly 1:09:49

Well Jenks I thought was doing software stuff with the AI

Sara 1:09:53

is Jake's doing software stuff first Jenks just in love with the AI.

Lilly 1:09:57

You missed the great opportunity to say no Software stuff if you know what?

Sara 1:10:05

You're right. I'm sorry.

Lilly 1:10:06

All right, I took the opportunity for all right.

Sara 1:10:10

I got my podcast license revoked.

Lilly 1:10:15

Jinx is introduced through the eyes of rosemary while she's being introduced to the crew. And Rosemary assumes that he's agenda tweak genetically tweaked person, because he is extremely short. I don't know what the right phrases, but

Sara 1:10:34

super duper short. follically challenged. I don't know if he's just short.

Lilly 1:10:38

I mean, but he's not like, Oh, he's five, five. Like he's like, waist tall to the average human shorts, very shorts. So she assumed he had been Jenna. Jenna tweaked. But then.

Sara 1:10:53

Alright, so I've always called a gene tweak. Well, I that's not that's not quite right. That's

Lilly 1:10:59

not true. Tell me what you first thought it was.

Sara 1:11:04

After after this first thought, which has more to do with the kinds of words that I normally read. After that I was saying gene tweet, not gentle tweaks, because I was thinking of genes and not genetics. I don't know if that's if that's where you're getting Jenna tweak.

Lilly 1:11:19

It is. Yeah,

Sara 1:11:20

I was thinking gene tweaking. But my initial reaction, and I had this for like the first I don't know, like five or 12 pages. It was it took me a while. But I was reading it as Gannett week. Because I was thinking I was looking at this word, because G and ETWEK. All one word. And I was saying Gannett like the cat and thinking it was Gannett week, not gene tweak, which again, probably says more about the kind of words that I expect to see than anything else. But

Lilly 1:11:53

I don't know. Well, obviously, I don't know if it's supposed to be gene tweak or Jenner tweak. I definitely thought it was like genetic.

Sara 1:12:00

I was just thinking like you're tweaking the genes. But

Lilly 1:12:03

it's genetic tweaking. It's sci fi garbage, there's no right answer. There's

Sara 1:12:10

this man until Becky Chambers listens to this podcast and tells us that there's one specific pronunciation we're both right. Except that my initial reaction get weak. That's not right. I can admit that.

Lilly 1:12:26

Rosemary assumes that Jenks had been Jenner tweaked to be extremely short. But as we later find out, he's actually extremely short due to due to birth complications, and he didn't have access to Jenner tweak technology. And so could not be I hesitate to use the phrase corrected, because that's something that he is, you know, he pushes back against that. Yeah, champions against in the book, but normalized. Can I say that, because his mother didn't have access to that technology. And so that's sort of a fun reversal of the assumption versus reality there, and where he fell on the technology spectrum. And while he has not altered his body through genetic modification, he does have a lot of what modern readers would recognize as body mods, you know, tattoos and all that sort of stuff. And I really love his quote about that didn't write the page number down, though. His approach to tattoos are something that resonates a lot with me. And I think, likely with other people, too. I've gotten ink to remind me of all sorts of places and memories, but at the core, everything I've had done has been my way of saying that this is my body. I don't want the body that everyone else told me I should have. And I think that really speaks to a notion of bodily autonomy that I have, in my personal life noticed with tattoos, and specifically young women. I consider tattoos the most pure form of bodily autonomy, it's a decision that you are making for yourself for no reason other than because you want it. And

Sara 1:14:14

that's a decision that you can make for yourself, at least from the perspective of a woman. Yeah.

Lilly 1:14:21

How many? Like, how many opportunities do you have to say, I am doing this to myself? Only because I want it not? Not a ton,

Sara 1:14:31

especially as relates to one's own body?

Lilly 1:14:35

Yes. Yeah. And this is maybe something that I should research more before bringing up but tattoos have definitely historically been more masculine. But I know more women with tattoos today than men our age, and I really do think there is something there that resonates with with having control over one's own self And Jenks, I think phrased it very well. And I really appreciated his his perception of the situation.

Sara 1:15:10

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with you. Thanks. Thanks

Lilly 1:15:13

for being attuned to bodily autonomy.

Sara 1:15:18

Thanks, Becky Chambers for writing a character who is attuned to bodily autonomy.

Lilly 1:15:23

That's true. I was gonna say it's impressive that a man but he's a male character written by a woman. Wow, who could possibly understand the appeal of having control over one's own self, one's own self, one's own self, plural, possessive, whatever. I do want to address Rosemary before we move on to other conversation topics, though, because she's not as sci fi fun as the other characters. But I really do love her.

Sara 1:16:01

She's the readers like entryway into this sci fi world because she is not someone who has spent a lot of time and space. She doesn't know, all of these things that the rest of the crew take for granted. So as it's explained to her, it's explained to the reader.

Lilly 1:16:19

But she's not bland. She's not a blank slate. She is just our way of learning about the world.

Sara 1:16:26

Yeah, I mean, she she has her own character, certainly.

Lilly 1:16:29

And that slow reveal of who she is and where she came from. May not slow. You know, from the very beginning, she's got some kind of shit going on

Sara 1:16:40

it also, like I think the reveal happens somewhere around the midway point in the book. What I really like about that is, so Rosemary's father, it turns out is this horrible villain who has been selling weapons to like he's an arms dealer, right. And Rosemary is trying to get away from that, because back on Mars, everyone knows she's the daughter of this arms dealer, and she is blamed for the sins of her father. But I like how it's essentially a non issue in the book. She struggles with it. And she doesn't want to disclose the situation that she's been dealing with to the rest of the crew. But when it happens, the crew just takes it in stride. And I love that it's not the main source of conflict for the book.

Lilly 1:17:30

She even, like purchases a false identity, to get away from it, not false credentials. And I think that's sort of the point that the crew sticks to Right. Like, she clearly knows her job. Also, I love the concept of the accountant saves the day. She's not always an accountant. She's also a translator. And that's usually how she's saving the day.

Sara 1:17:57

I mean, she's she's a clerk, with all sorts of very duties that our clerk related.

Lilly 1:18:03

But speaking of mundane tasks, she saved their asses through the time. Yeah, yeah, largely pencil pushing or knowing how to be polite to a stranger. And it's just this is such a good books that

Sara 1:18:21

it was a good, I did enjoy it a lot.

Lilly 1:18:24

Ah, speaking of rosemary, you have a quote about where is it running away from your past?

Sara 1:18:31

Yeah, so there's a quote in the book that actually there's a similar quote in of honey and wildfires that that I'll give to, but they both relate to this idea that you are not responsible for what your parents have done. And in of honey, and wildfires, Cassandra, who is one of the main characters is pulled, only you get to decide who you want to be, you do not hold your father's sin. And in the Long Way to a Small Angry Planet, Rosemary is told, we cannot blame ourselves for the wars our parents start. And I just think that it's really important to remember that You're your own person and you're not responsible for anything that your parents might have done.

Lilly 1:19:17

And also celebrate your own accomplishments. These are two coincidentally young women who have done good with their lives and are feeling held back by their legacy. But, you know, celebrate yourself

Sara 1:19:42

so I have a pet peeves that I wanted to talk about that I discovered. I didn't realize that this was a pet peeve of mine, but I discovered it while looking through fanfiction summaries on iOS three. And I saw a summary that said this CES inspired, and then in parentheses, cough slightly plagiarized by. And then they gave the title and the author of the story that had inspired them. And somehow, this just rubbed me the wrong way. Like they're trying to be cutesy about giving credit. In a way that didn't work for me, just saying the story was inspired by the, you know, this title and this author.

Lilly 1:20:27

Well, especially because it's already fan fiction. Like, we know you're borrowing ideas,

Sara 1:20:33

except, except it was it was inspired by another fan fiction story. No, yeah,

Lilly 1:20:37

I, I have read fan fiction stories that link to other fan fiction stories. And I can definitely see like, how they are they read the first one, and are riffing off of the same idea, but took it in a different direction, or a different angle. I mean, whatever. I think I have read those pairs of stories before

Sara 1:20:57

I think at that point, like, get permission from the author, like reach out to the author and say, hey, I want to take this this idea, can I use it?

Lilly 1:21:05

Or don't? It's already fanfiction? It's not their idea. Except that

Sara 1:21:10

I mean, I didn't read the story. So I don't know how directly it tracks. Because if you if you take, I think there's a point, right? Like, if you take the same basic idea, and then go off in your own direction, just say this is inspired by, but if you cover the same, like plot points, but with your own words, then you might want to get permission, but like just say, you know, inspired by or I got permission to do this. Don't try to make it cutesy it just will also plagiarism

Lilly 1:21:41

isn't cute. Like, for me? Like

Sara 1:21:46

just calling it plagiarism just didn't. You know, I get that you were given credit, but it just it didn't work for me. And I thought that it qualified Pepe for the podcast.

Lilly 1:21:59

No, that's definitely a little disgruntled thing, especially because sites like a oh three or nonprofits like a oh three, I should say. fight so hard to justify fanfiction as fair use. That throwing around words like plagiarism so lightly is like what do you do?

Sara 1:22:20

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Yeah,

Lilly 1:22:23

I still don't think I mean if the original fanfiction work is already borrowing, I assume pretty heavily from another word.

Sara 1:22:34

So borrowing that does depend on the fanfiction but

Lilly 1:22:38

but so borrowing heavily from them is just like feels like fair game, I

Sara 1:22:43

think I think in a small fandom, or or a small subset of the fandom where stories are instantly recognizable. I think that you do have to acknowledge your influences. Oh,

Lilly 1:22:58

no. Yeah. Oh, maybe that's what it is. They're citing their work, which is categorically not plagiarism. Plagiarism is when you don't cite your work. Yes. It's not even not funny. It's just wrong. Yeah, of course, you're supposed to link to the one that inspired you. Just like you're supposed to pick the right category for the whatever parent work that you're writing fanfiction for. That's how it works.

Sara 1:23:28

Yeah, no, I think you have a point there. Like if, if you were, if you are acknowledging where you got this from, it's not plagiarism, unless you were copying, you know, the actual words, which again, I didn't read the spec, but I'm assuming that they are not actually copying, you know, paragraphs from the original fanfiction.

Lilly 1:23:49

I've read a fanfiction where they just did a whole s sequel to another fan fiction. I think they I think they had had conversations with that that first author just based on author's notes. But

Sara 1:24:04

I mean, I've definitely read sick that is based off of other sick more than it's based off of the parent work.

Lilly 1:24:13

Or once an author has created a large enough alternative universe. Other authors are going to play in that space. And why would you complain? You're already the one playing in someone else's space. Yeah, it's not. It's not plagiarism.

Sara 1:24:31

Yeah, it just that the way that they were referring to their creative influences. It just it didn't work for me.

Lilly 1:24:40

I had a friend in college, who was once pulled aside for a very serious conversation by one of our professors, and told that she had plagiarized her essay, like one of her big midterm essays. Oh, no, because she formatted the big bibliography incorrectly. Oh, no. And I was so upset. I mean, obviously she was too. Like, this isn't about me. But I was ready to storm in there like, where do you get off?

Sara 1:25:14

That is not what lists.

Lilly 1:25:17

Not even, like, she just formatted it wrong and being accused of plagiarism for that that's garbage especially because

Sara 1:25:24

like the university that we both attended. You had to submit your papers through turn it in. Yeah. So that checks for the level of you know, the level of congruence with other

Lilly 1:25:41

Berkeley's think any of my English professors made us do well.

Sara 1:25:45

I had I had, I had to submit papers through Turnitin. But I also was not in the English program.

Lilly 1:25:52

I did that for like my public speaking class, but not like my actual English. Major classes. Anyway,

Sara 1:25:59

the only English literature class I took was in freshman year. There were three Sara's in a class of 15.

Lilly 1:26:06

That sure does sound like USF.

Sara 1:26:11

That's mostly what I remember about that class.

Lilly 1:26:13

Anyway, maybe I'm a killjoy. But plagiarism isn't funny, I guess is what I'm saying.

Sara 1:26:20

Yeah. And joking about it when it's not plagiarism. It just it didn't work for me.

Lilly 1:26:26

Maybe it it is so upsetting is because genuine plagiarism is extremely shitty.

Sara 1:26:34

And it happens with fanfiction like fans. Yeah, the authors are plagiarized,

Lilly 1:26:39

winking and making fun of that just feels bad. Yeah, anyway, it sucks when your joke falls flat, but they could just edit their summary and maybe take that out.

Sara 1:26:52

And who knows, maybe they will at some point.

Lilly 1:26:55

Maybe they're listening right now.

Sara 1:26:58

I have my doubts about that, but maybe

Lilly 1:27:02

statistically unlikely. Thank you so much to Jessica and specs for helping me reroofing my house this week. And thanks to all of you for listening to this episode of fiction fans.

Sara 1:27:22

disagree with us. We're on Twitter and Instagram at fiction fans pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com.

Lilly 1:27:32

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts may

Sara 1:27:40

live. Thanks again for listening and may your villains always be defeated. Bye bye