The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald feat. Krystle Matar
- Fiction Fans
- Aug 6
- 36 min read
Episode 200
Release Date: Aug 6, 2025
Your hosts are joined by Krystle Matar to discuss The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald. They wonder why no one talks about Gatsby being a crime lord, throw around wild F. Scott conspiracy theories, and rank the characters from least shitty to most shitty. (It's all of them. They're all the most shitty)
Find more from Krystle:
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:04
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,
Sara: 0:09
And I'm Sarah, and I'm so delighted to welcome Krystle Matar back onto the podcast today, this time to talk about The Great Gatsby by F Scott Fitzgerald.
Krystle: 0:19
Whose idea was this? Lily? Was this my idea? Did I invite myself on again? Or did you come up with it this
Lilly: 0:25
I think it was you and Sarah, like plotting together to make Sarah's Day bad for some reason, but I was like,
Krystle: 0:34
This is, this is, this is our revenge for Shield's start. And then the other one that was also Shield's Start a
Sara: 0:41
it's not because I hated this book. Well, I didn't hate it, but,
Lilly: 0:46
yeah.
Sara: 0:46
I'm pretty sure that the last time you were on, after recording was over, we were just shooting the shit and we were, for some reason we were talking about Gatsby or like the Nevo book. That's a A Gatsby retelling.
Lilly: 1:01
And we found out you had never read it and were appalled.
Sara: 1:04
Yes.
Krystle: 1:05
Gatsby? No, I read Gatsby.
Sara: 1:07
No, no, no. Me, me. I'd never read it. Yeah.
Krystle: 1:11
Yeah, and I, I feel like maybe I made a comment about like how the classics are wasted on high school students or something. I, but maybe that was somebody, anyway, I don't remember. I don't remember who came up with it. It's entirely possible that I invited myself back your
Lilly: 1:27
but it's perfect because we needed an occasion for our 200th episode. So
Krystle: 1:32
there we go. Yeah,
Lilly: 1:33
gonna be popping champagne for this book anyway,
Krystle: 1:36
we're all definitely costumed up in roaring Twenties gear for sure. And I can say that because it's audio only.
Sara: 1:45
Mm.
Lilly: 1:45
Yeah.
Krystle: 1:46
So everybody please imagine us with, you know, three piece suits and flopper dresses and really fancy cocktails. Exactly,
Lilly: 1:55
fringe.
Krystle: 1:56
exactly. That's definitely the truth.
Lilly: 2:00
before we dive into what might be an extended conversation, judging by my own emotions
Sara: 2:06
oh.
Krystle: 2:07
Oh boy. I thought you liked the book.
Lilly: 2:10
Yes, very
Krystle: 2:11
very ominous. Oh,
Lilly: 2:13
Oh no, I just, yeah, this is, well, we'll get into it. First, what's something great that happened recently? Sarah, I'm gonna pick on you.
Sara: 2:20
So my apricot tree had apricots and I got two huge colanders full of apricots, and they are, oh my god, the best apricots I've ever had. They're so
Krystle: 2:35
I bet, I bet apricots are one of those things where it's like they're kind of meh, but it's because they don't grow locally.
Sara: 2:43
Yeah.
Krystle: 2:44
But I believe that a fresh,
Sara: 2:47
yeah, this is, this is the first year that I've had fruit on this tree, so I didn't really know what to expect. And it was amazing.
Krystle: 2:56
Yeah, that sounds really good.
Lilly: 2:58
mine is also plant related. A couple years ago we bought a white lavender and it was just a little, little baby guy. And it kind of died down over winter, but I thought that happens. Maybe it'll come back. Didn't. But this summer it did. So I guess it was just biting. Its time waiting.
Krystle: 3:16
I was just hanging out for a year, kind of collecting its energy. Some plants do that where they only come up every other year.
Lilly: 3:24
Yeah, well, lavender thrives in my yard. We have one that's like taller than me. So I was like, Aw man. If it didn't make the make it through, then we probably lost it. And we had two and one of them still hasn't come back. But now I have hope like Gatsby. I have hope.
Sara: 3:40
your story does not end like his,
Krystle: 3:42
Yeah. Hopefully nobody shoots Lily or the lavender. Spoiler alert.
Lilly: 3:47
Yeah.
Krystle: 3:49
If nobody knows how Gatsby ends at this point though, it's, that's not you. Well,
Sara: 3:53
I mean, I didn't know how Gatsby ended until, no,
Krystle: 3:56
well, that's awkward,
Sara: 3:59
I mean, I have, I have now read the book, but
Lilly: 4:01
yeah.
Krystle: 4:02
good.
Lilly: 4:03
All right. Well listeners, we're gonna be spoiling this book, but again, we still need to hear
Krystle: 4:07
literally literally a hundred years old now'cause we're 2025. So, my good thing is that I finally went to the art store and got frames for all of the art prints that I bought in Edinburgh and Glasgow last year, fully a year ago. And so those are finally going up on the wall this week. So that's, I feel really proud of myself. It only took me a year to see that task through to the
Sara: 4:35
look, I have art that I bought in 2020. That's still not framed. So
Krystle: 4:42
2020 does not count as reality though. Like,
Sara: 4:45
yeah. Okay. I also have art that I bought in 2021. That's still not
Krystle: 4:48
Oh shit.
Sara: 4:49
So you're doing okay.
Lilly: 4:52
that's the kind of chore that's so easy to slip through the cracks.'cause you're like, I would really like this. It would make me happy, but it's not necessary, and
Krystle: 5:00
Well, and also like, there's a lot of decisions in it, which I think is part of why it gets into that like paralyzed zone because like you have to decide, you know, what kind of frame they go in. You have to decide where they're gonna go. And it's like, it's just so many decisions that it's, it's very intimidating.
Sara: 5:22
All of my art lives in a box on the floor after it's been framed because I don't have wall space for it. But
Krystle: 5:28
that too.
Sara: 5:30
I take my stuff to a fancy framer because I just do. And so it also, like, I, you know, I've got pug fat bills I can't be spending money
Krystle: 5:42
That, that, yeah. See we did not do that for the prince, and I feel like it's one of those things that I will do it later when I have a nicer house to like justify the expensive frame. I just went and bought frames, but even that took forever because there's four that are the same size and one that's slightly bigger. Which was, which made it an ordeal for me of like, do we make them all match? Okay. I've decided to make them all match. What do you mean? There's nothing that comes in both of these sizes? So, yeah, that was, that was challenging.
Sara: 6:21
That, that can be very frustrating.
Krystle: 6:24
Yeah.
Lilly: 6:25
So what is everyone drinking today?
Sara: 6:28
This
Lilly: 6:28
say as I pour myself
Sara: 6:30
this book is very much a champagne book and it is our 200th anniversary,
Lilly: 6:36
200th anniversary.
Sara: 6:38
200th anniversary. 200th episode. It counts. I haven't even had any of my drink yet. But,
Krystle: 6:44
Whatcha waiting for?
Sara: 6:45
I'm not really in a champagne mood right now due to life things. So I'm drinking whiskey, which to be fair is also consumed quite a bit in this book.
Lilly: 6:54
It
Krystle: 6:55
Yeah, it it is still topical. Yeah. I'm starting off, I'm starting off a little lighter with some Guinness.'cause I'm that kind of obnoxious that my beer of choice is Guinness because I went to Dublin. And then I I I've got my eye on some whiskey. When that Guinness is done, who cares about the rest of the day?
Lilly: 7:13
It is funny, the characters.
Krystle: 7:16
Yeah, exactly. The characters would approve of this decision of noonday whiskey.
Lilly: 7:22
Oh yeah. And I there, I feel like there's a whole chapter that they spend talking about mint juleps, and then never actually drink a mint julep. That felt like a chekhov's gun moment. I was like, no, you have to have one.
Krystle: 7:34
I have, I have a funny relationship with tulips because, and funny as in like, literally funny, not funny as in traumatic. Because my, my great-grandmother and, and my great-grandfather he was like a diplomat or something, a lot of question marks. And they were posted somewhere in the states at some point in their young lives with a couple of children. And nana was very old school hostess type vibes. And she al she always put parties on for people to come to the house. But she had this thing with the mint juleps wear. She ran out of ice or something, so she made them ahead of time and put them in the freezer. But that meant that like all of the non-alcohol froze at the top and there was like alcohol at the bottom of people's glasses and people weren't drinking the ice, just drinking the straight alcohol and they got smashed. And apparently Nana was kind of known as like the house to go to for the good parties. And the fact that it was mint julip specifically, it's like every time I feel them, I have like this warm feeling. Or anytime I hear the word mint julip, I have this warm feeling. So it's like having that in the middle of, what was it? Extremely tense scene was a weird emotional dissonance of like, oh, men just like nana. Oh, oh shit. There's like domestic violence coming. Okay. That's cool.
Lilly: 9:00
Has anyone read anything good lately
Sara: 9:02
I've read a lot about brain tumors in dogs.
Krystle: 9:07
Oh, is it good? No, that's
Lilly: 9:10
Yeah.
Sara: 9:10
it's not. No, it's not good.
Krystle: 9:12
Stupidest question possible.
Lilly: 9:15
I'm sorry, Sarah.
Krystle: 9:16
Yeah.
Sara: 9:18
It's Mr. Squeak. She was, she was always gonna go out with a bang.
Krystle: 9:23
Oh yeah. Because she's the one that has like the extensive ve bills as as
Sara: 9:28
the problem child. She's probleming until the end.
Krystle: 9:32
So she's lancing out like see a losers.
Sara: 9:35
yep.
Lilly: 9:36
ain't seen nothing yet?
Krystle: 9:37
Yeah.
Sara: 9:39
fast, die young.
Krystle: 9:40
girl. Yeah. At a girl living the dream. Uh, I'm trying to think what I'm reading.
Lilly: 9:46
I could go
Krystle: 9:47
actually, well I'm rereading a Dennis Lehan novel. Which takes place in Boston in 1919. So it was a very interesting contrast.'cause
Lilly: 9:56
hmm.
Krystle: 9:56
like, in some ways it, it approaches a very similar vibe. It that is the scorn for the social elites. But this one deals with a lot more politics.'cause it's like the police strike and the it's, it, the, the main character starts off as he is hunting for like, subversives and Bolsheviks as a cop, but then like very rapidly gets disillusioned in a very lame kind of way. And so it, it was interesting to like, take a break from that, to stop to read Gatsby. And boy, it changed my perspective on Gatsby as a character really fast. And, and I like, I'm not sure if it's the contrast of that book specifically or more that I, I just know more about the time period this time. So I'm gonna have a lot to say about Gatsby specifically because of this contrast. Yeah.
Lilly: 10:53
Well, I'm gonna plug issue three of our zine Sotia specifically because it was our coffee shop au issue. And we actually were able to accept a piece called The Coffee Shop au by Leonard Richardson, which is the Great Gatsby. And it is so good.
Krystle: 11:13
oh, that's, that's fantastic timing on the part of the universe.
Lilly: 11:18
It really is. And when Sarah and I were picking the theme, we were like, no actual fan fiction, even though it's a fan fiction trope, but Great Gatsby is in public domain, so it was okay. It also, like Sarah hadn't read The Great Gatsby when we accepted the piece. Like it's good, it stands
Sara: 11:33
Yeah, the, the story, the story stands on its own. If you don't know Greg Gaby, which I did not at the time. So it's,
Krystle: 11:42
now, having read the Gaby, like does it change your relationship with the story retrospectively,
Sara: 11:48
I think, so I haven't gone back and reread the story yet. I really want to.
Krystle: 11:52
Yeah, that'll be, that'll be interesting On like, just on a personal level.
Sara: 11:57
yeah, but I do think that it would, knowing the context that the Au by Richardson is like in would change the reading of it. Not in a bad way, just like it would bring, bring more depth to it. Yeah.
Krystle: 12:15
Yeah. And hell of a skill too, to write something that specific, like a Gatsby fanfic that just stands on its own. Like, that's impressive.
Sara: 12:24
the really cool thing I have to gush about this again, is that Richardson works in, or he, he writes Python libraries, so like techie stuff and the Python library that he's written, I haven't used personally, but we do use it at my work. And so, so I saw that and I was like, wait, I know this, I know this name.
Krystle: 12:45
That's, that's also a really weirdly interesting universe thing, is this, this story was meant to be basically
Lilly: 12:53
it really
Sara: 12:53
basically,
Lilly: 12:54
Yeah. So I have to plug it. If anyone hasn't read Sotia issue three, there are a lot of other great stories in it. And it's$3. So
Sara: 13:03
and you can find it on our Patreon, you can, you don't have to subscribe to the Patreon, you can just buy it at the Patreon
Krystle: 13:09
buy the magazine.
Sara: 13:10
But if you are a subscriber to our Patreon, if you support us on Patreon, you get it for free.
Lilly: 13:16
and you can buy it on our website. Now that's new.
Sara: 13:17
Oh, yes. You can't buy it on our website now too.
Lilly: 13:20
Okay. Enough of that though. The great fucking Gatsby.
Krystle: 13:24
Yeah.
Sara: 13:25
Before, before we start out, so obviously we've talked at length about how I was not familiar with the book, I mean the title. Yes. But I'd never read it before. What?
Krystle: 13:35
And you'd never seen any of the movies I'm guessing as
Sara: 13:38
No, I'd never seen any of the
Krystle: 13:39
Yeah.
Lilly: 13:40
I re-watched the Boaz Luhrman one last night because as much as I love this book, I also really love that version. So I'm just swimming in
Krystle: 13:47
the, is that the DiCaprio one or is that
Lilly: 13:50
Leonardo DiCaprio. Yes.
Krystle: 13:52
I, let me tell you just that this is super niche. They have Jason Clark as Wilson, and that is some Jason Clark slander. Like, I'm so mad, like having Reread Gatsby and like reading the description of this guy Wilson and then knowing that they've chosen Jason Clark for him it's like, oh, he's so underrated. Like, I really wanna see him in more stuff because he is always so good. And like when, when the, what am I trying to say? When that character was talking, I could hear Jason Clark's voice, but it, it, I, that didn't happen for any of the other characters and I don't know why he specifically has left such a impression on me.'cause I don't know. He's just really good and the, I'm begging Hollywood to put him in more, more movies
Sara: 14:40
so
Krystle: 14:40
for bigger parts.
Sara: 14:42
obviously you both are very familiar with the book and adaptations. What is your relationship to the book? Like, how did you come to it?
Krystle: 14:52
I came to it pretty late. And I think it's gonna be an interesting spread between us.'cause you are brand new to it. I first read it two years ago, maybe less than that because I picked it up as like. An inspiration for my own like prohibition era fantasy novel that I'm working on. And I just kind of wanted like the voice of the 1920s and of course that like Fitzgerald's so well known as being that like he was in the time writing of the time and it, like, it's just, he was the right person for it. So I picked it up not that long ago. And I think I missed how awful everybody was the first time
Sara: 15:37
could you do, they're so terrible.
Krystle: 15:40
I was so, I know they do. Like I, I knew specifically Tom was terrible'cause he, like, he underscores that like the minute you meet that guy, but the pros is so beautiful that I just kept, like, I'd get so sunk in and I think because I was, listen, I'd like, I was listening to the audio of it, I would get so sunk into the pros that I was almost missing the little hints of like, what he wanted us to think of these people, with the exception of Dom specifically.'cause there's no missing that that guy fucking sucks. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and then now, like I said with, you know, I've, since then I've read a lot of inspiration, a lot of research and, you know, a lot about the politics of the time and prohibition specifically. And, and so now I'm, I'm going through it like this is a fucking crime novel. Like there's all this hidden stuff in it and then also everyone sucks so much. And it was just, it was like, it was so much fun in a way that Yeah, I know, I know. And I'm sorry that you didn't,
Sara: 16:47
everyone sucked. And why should I care about them? Because they're all terrible people. I don't wanna read about terrible people.
Krystle: 16:55
it reminds me of SC Scorsese movies. In that way that Scorsese just does these movies about people that fucking suck. But the narrative is very careful to make sure you know that you and the author, or you and Martin Scorsese are both aware that they sucked. It's not like, it's not like some books where the main characters suck and you can feel that the author thinks that these people are great. Or the author's trying to be edgy and impress you with, with how dark it can be. It's just like, this sucks, doesn't it? And there's no lesson. There's no lesson at all because they just suck so much. And it's like all of these people attract each other with their poison and then, and it's just like, yeah, thanks for that pal. Like thanks for exposing that
Sara: 17:47
That's not enough for me
Krystle: 17:49
in a way, in a way that, you know, it's people that they're used to hanging out with.'cause it's like Scorsese makes movies from a point of view of growing up in that environment. And very clearly, Fitzgerald is writing this book from a point of view of these are his peers and or peers in the next level above him that he hates, but also kind of wants to be.
Lilly: 18:13
Yeah. Well, I think that's what makes the Great Gatsby. I mean, yeah, everyone in it sucks, but it's, it's almost like an exposition of how much this class of people is not better than everyone else.
Krystle: 18:26
Yes, yes.
Lilly: 18:28
So it's, it's not just, let's talk about shitty people. It, it's making a statement about how shitty these people are. Like, they're not better than you just'cause they're
Krystle: 18:36
These, yeah, these glittering beautiful people are not actually better than us. So why, why do we keep aspiring to this?
Lilly: 18:43
But also, wouldn't
Krystle: 18:44
we are still, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sara: 18:48
I recognize your points. I think they're very
Krystle: 18:51
But also, yeah.
Sara: 18:53
it's not enough for me as
Krystle: 18:55
Yeah. No, I get it.
Sara: 18:56
style of preference or my, my preferences as a reader is that just doesn't work for me.
Krystle: 19:03
Yeah.
Sara: 19:04
So
Krystle: 19:05
Yeah. I, and I like, I can definitely see how if that's not your,
Sara: 19:10
yeah,
Krystle: 19:11
lane, it would just be so repulsive,
Sara: 19:14
yeah. Like the And to,
Krystle: 19:16
at least it's very short.
Sara: 19:18
Yeah, to the book's. Credit. It doesn't drag on it's a very quick read and the prose is beautiful, so you can, like, I was almost able to overlook how much I hated everyone in this book. But ultimately I couldn't. But it was not a terrible reading experience because it was at least very nicely written.
Krystle: 19:37
I, I think, yeah, that, that's like, it's one of those things where them sucking was not a skill issue. Like he, he very
Sara: 19:47
not. Yeah.
Krystle: 19:48
Yeah. And I think that that's why it probably almost redeems itself for you, I'm assuming, where it's like, it's not a skill issue. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's just like people think they're writing something that's really impressive and they're just drip eggs. And that would bother me more,
Sara: 20:05
Yeah, it was very intentional. Like Fitz Fitzgerald knew what he was doing and he was
Krystle: 20:11
Oh yeah.
Sara: 20:11
a thing intentionally. I just didn't like it.
Lilly: 20:14
And you don't have to spend that much time with them. I don't think anyone could survive 500 pages of
Krystle: 20:20
Oh yeah. No,
Sara: 20:23
it is, you're right. It is. It is very short
Krystle: 20:26
I
Sara: 20:26
and everything moves so quickly. It doesn't, it doesn't linger on how terrible they are. It just is like, yeah, these people are terrible. Next, you know,
Krystle: 20:36
And I think also it being through Nick rather than like Daisy's point of view or Gatsby's point of view, like, or literally anyone else's point of view, also makes it a little bit easier to swallow. Because every now and then Nick kind of makes eye contact with a reader. Like, he's fucking guys, am I right? And I'm like, yeah, buddy, but also you are making these choices. So I don't know if I believe you, I think I wrote on, on page 54, I am one of the few honest people that I have ever known, and I just wrote, okay, buddy. Fuck the, so, uh, yeah, that's pretty much sums up my relationship with that narrator.
Lilly: 21:21
Okay. I'm gonna take you through a very, very quick history of my life. I was 12 years old. A teacher complimented a short story I wrote by comparing it to this book. So of course I had to read it. Had not read it before. Did not get it.
Krystle: 21:35
specific high. Like that's a good hit right there. Yeah.
Lilly: 21:39
Did not understand it'cause I was fucking 12. But I, like, I knew it was a compliment and I was like, I'm gonna go read this book now. Read it again in high school at a time that I also read Cold Comfort Farm, which is also like more comedic, more satirical, but also kind of criticizing society in a
Krystle: 22:00
you guys
Sara: 22:01
I did like cold Comfort farm Better. We did read
Krystle: 22:04
Yeah, I, I remember that. I, I remember that episode.
Lilly: 22:08
My friends and I swiftly became absolutely obsessed with not just the 1920s, but this kind of like criticism and admiration at the same time of wealth in the 1920s. And it just spiraled out of control. And that this is the very abridged version of my obsession with this book.
Sara: 22:27
and you've been trying to get me to read it ever since.
Lilly: 22:30
Yes. I will not try to get you to read. Tender is the Night speaking of horrible people, that's where a psychiatrist marries his patient. It doesn't go well.
Sara: 22:41
Great.
Lilly: 22:42
Yeah.
Krystle: 22:42
sold, I don't think that one's on the audio book compilation that I have.
Sara: 22:48
I love Kay. I love our two very different reactions to that
Krystle: 22:52
Oh, yeah. I I feel like that sums us up as readers very quickly. Yeah.
Lilly: 22:58
Well, it's funny
Krystle: 22:59
if it's short
Lilly: 23:01
oh, tender is The night is longer than the Great Gatsby. Not by a ton, but it is definitely novel length. Whereas this is borderline. If it's not a novella, it's borderline
Krystle: 23:09
It is a noll for sure. Yeah.'cause it's,
Sara: 23:12
like 70,000 words or something. I did look
Krystle: 23:14
it's only six hours, is it really? 70,000 words. It's only six hours on audio, which is not very much
Sara: 23:23
Actually, nope, I take it back. It is 47,000 words.
Lilly: 23:27
Technically a novel
Krystle: 23:28
it's in that, yeah, it's in that, that gray area. The,
Lilly: 23:34
I did read it this time on the plane back from visiting my parents with some sparkling wine in not the cheapest seat, but like the next level up, so I was like, I'm practically daisy.
Krystle: 23:47
Yeah.
Lilly: 23:48
Yeah. It is always funny to
Krystle: 23:50
that's a good vibe for this book. I think on the plane. You're stuck there. You can't go anywhere else. You might as well sit with some fucking awful people.
Lilly: 23:59
It's so funny to me how Fitzgerald, he's like the quintessential author who can't keep himself out of his novels.
Krystle: 24:06
Yeah.
Lilly: 24:07
every main character is a little bit
Krystle: 24:09
Oh yeah,
Lilly: 24:10
Every love interest is a little bit.
Krystle: 24:12
a whole, there's like a whole, is it like a fully a chapter? But when he is like, Gatsby is telling him about how him and Daisy met, and I was like, Hmm, that sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure I saw that in the biographical. And it, it was like very on the nose, like, so. Exactly. And I, it's interesting that he then goes on to imagine like, what if we hadn't married, I guess is what this is. Like, to what end would I go to win you back and I get murdered. Like, it's like, okay,
Lilly: 24:48
I mean, it's, it's, I would die without you basically. Right. Like, yeah. Which is again, well, not again. But in another note, not only is this autobiographical, the appreciation of men in Fitzgerald's writing is always a little bit like side eyed by myself and other people. I just, the descriptions, the introductions of Gatsby and Tom, who you're supposed to hate, but is described as an absolute hunk.
Krystle: 25:18
Well, I think that that ties in, at least for this book specifically, it ties in really nicely with that envy, right? It's just like, I hate you, but also I think I would trade places with you. You know what I mean? Like,
Lilly: 25:32
I think there's some of that, but it's, I don't know. The admiration is, feels a little bit more than that to me.
Krystle: 25:37
I'd ha I'd have to read more of his work.'cause I think in the constraints of Gatsby, it works as it works toward the theme. But if he's doing it every single book, then it's like, yeah.
Lilly: 25:48
Well, and then you also get, like, like I said, I'm extrapolating a little bit, but the way he and Hemingway describe each other, it's just like, okay guys. Alright. We get
Krystle: 25:58
quote. Okay.
Lilly: 25:59
Yeah.
Krystle: 26:00
need this, I need this T.
Lilly: 26:02
It, it's just very thinly veiled obsession and Hemingway hates all women, but like Zelda the most and it's so clearly jealousy like
Krystle: 26:12
Oh,
Lilly: 26:13
So yeah, Fitzgerald, I, I believe in my, a personal opinion, believe he appreciated all human beings
Krystle: 26:23
oh, I'll take that.
Lilly: 26:24
because he definitely loves Zelda. Like, I'm not saying I think
Krystle: 26:27
Oh yeah.
Lilly: 26:28
in the closet, but
Krystle: 26:30
halfway in the closet, one foot in the closet counts. Like,'cause bisexual at the time wouldn't have been any more accepted than fully gay. So
Lilly: 26:41
Anyway, that, that's a little bit of my conspiracy theory, but holy shit. Just the way he
Krystle: 26:46
we tend, we tend to swerve a little, a little a little queer, so I, I'll buy it,
Lilly: 26:52
And then this book is so soap opera. Mm-hmm.
Krystle: 26:56
I was gonna say on the description, something that I picked up that was really interesting to me once I noticed it. I think you can tell which people are, are meant to be his favorite people. So like, specifically, and I, I had to fact check myself, but specifically oh, what's her name? The tennis player? Is it
Lilly: 27:16
Jordan?
Sara: 27:17
Jordan,
Krystle: 27:17
Jordan Baker, yeah. Jordan, Daisy and Gatsby. They're never described literally. Everybody else is. Tom gets like, this guy's a hunk. And Catherine is like, she was such and such with, red hair and like they're, they're described in a very literal human way of like, this is a list of what they looked like. But Jordan, Daisy and Gatsby are given these really ethereal, very vibe aesthetic. It's like, never once are we, I don't think we're ever told the color of Daisy's hair, for example. It's, but he describes her voice and her laughter and like the things that live inside of her, and he does Gatsby the same way and Jordan, and it's like those three people are just elevated to this level of more than human and everybody else are these filthy animals, like in comparison. And I thought once I noticed it, it was so cool and it was such an interesting way to set them apart in the narrative. And it's like cripping that I'm stealing that. Like, I'm gonna remember that.
Lilly: 28:29
And but setting them apart, but not making them better people than anyone
Krystle: 28:33
Oh, absolutely not because you very explicitly says that Jordan is dishonest and like lies
Sara: 28:40
she's a compulsive liar
Lilly: 28:41
She cheats at golf. She's a huge bitch. Yeah.
Krystle: 28:45
yeah,
Sara: 28:46
and she balances stuff on her face. Mm-hmm.
Lilly: 28:49
think he was describing it was always something invisible. Right? So I think it's just more like she has her chin up in the air because she
Krystle: 28:54
yeah. Well, and it was. I, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was like, she, she's described as being like very sportsman and her shoulders are jetted back, and like her carriage is very authoritative, but she's quiet and, and mysterious and fucking lies about everything. And so it was like, it was just this interest. Like he clearly has a soft spot for those three people in a way that we're meant to notice, but then also they're dirt bags too. So it was just an interesting contrast. And then contrast them, Tom, like he hates Tom and he wants us to hate Tom immediately from nearly the first thing that
Lilly: 29:37
peaked in
Krystle: 29:37
oh, I guess not.
Lilly: 29:38
He was good at football and did nothing else ever again.
Krystle: 29:42
now he's a loser. And, and then
Sara: 29:44
But a rich loser.
Lilly: 29:46
but a rich and hot loser you get. Okay. I'm gonna find the description of him. I'm not wrong,
Krystle: 29:51
yeah. No, you are right. You are absolutely right.
Lilly: 29:55
My specific note was this description of Thomas Scandalous,
Krystle: 30:00
Yeah. The muscle's rippling in his shoulders or something like,
Lilly: 30:04
a sturdy straw haired man of 30 with a rather hard mouth and a super silliest manner. Two shining arrogant eyes, had established dominance over
Krystle: 30:13
I'm gonna
Lilly: 30:13
face and gave him the appearance of always leaning aggressively forward. Not even the effeminate swank of his writing clothes could hide the enormous power of that body. He seemed to fill those glistening boots until he strained the top lacing, and you could see a great pack of
Krystle: 30:30
I right?
Lilly: 30:31
shifting when his shoulder moved under his thin coat. It was a body capable of enormous leverage. A cruel body.
Sara: 30:39
I mean, that doesn't necessarily sound hunky to me, but it it's definitely
Krystle: 30:44
It's a weird fixation.
Lilly: 30:46
yeah.
Krystle: 30:47
I like, I don't think he, he, he describes anyone else's body in such,
Lilly: 30:55
He does say Myrtle is curvy, Myrtle is thick, and we know that she's a thick redhead. But otherwise, yeah. No. Tom is the most like physical person on the page.
Krystle: 31:06
But it's like, it's also a little bit of fear. It's like there's this knowledge that this motherfucker can beat the shit out of me. I think.
Lilly: 31:14
Tom is dangerous. We're not supposed to like him.
Krystle: 31:16
oh yeah. Immediately. And it's like, the thing that I noticed was that early on Nick spends kind of the first page, the entire first scene talking on and on about how hopeful he is. And it's like how, you know, he believes the best in people and it's reserving judgment is a matter of infinite hope. And he says it more than once. And then one of the first things that Tom says to him is I've gotten to be a terrible pessimist about things, which like immediately set this interest in contrast. And then right after that went extremely racist for no reason. And I found his racism was like such an interesting choice because the novel itself isn't interested in that at all. And so Fitzgerald making the choice to make Tom so hateful and racist was like kind of a progressive choice at the time. And also he's extra misogynist compared to everyone else, which is also kind of a progressive choice of like, Hey, maybe we shouldn't beat the shit out of our mistresses. Maybe. Like it's kind of a bad thing, don't you think? Although I was really shocked that Nick leaves Myrtle alone with him after he
Sara: 32:41
Nick, Nick spends that entire evening seeing what's going on and
Krystle: 32:46
Yeah. And then
Sara: 32:46
'cause he, he
Krystle: 32:47
walks away.
Sara: 32:48
of it. Yeah.
Krystle: 32:50
Yeah. And that's why like the thing about the honesty, it's like, okay, buddy. Like,
Lilly: 32:55
Well, he is not that, I mean, lying by omission, right? Like, it's not like he tells anyone. I guess it's an open secret that Tom is having an affair, but
Krystle: 33:04
Oh yeah. And Daisy knows, like, we're told immediately that Daisy knows about it. But the, the fact, yeah, I wrote on all caps. They just leave her there. Question mark. Question mark. This is after he punches her in the face just fully broke. Tom
Lilly: 33:19
punches his mistress in the face, not
Krystle: 33:21
Yeah. Yeah. Not
Lilly: 33:23
Yeah. I, the thing about Nick, he's
Krystle: 33:26
everybody just walks away.
Lilly: 33:27
Yeah. As in
Krystle: 33:29
just as bad
Lilly: 33:30
he's just as bad. Yeah. In a book full of awful people, he does not enact awful actions. However, he, he's always like, I'm just an observer. I'm just watching people and it's all beyond me and I can't do anything about it. And it's like, buddy. Yeah.
Krystle: 33:46
maybe call the cops on the guy that just broke somebody's nose. That would be something
Sara: 33:52
he is a hundred percent an enabler.
Krystle: 33:55
oh
Lilly: 33:55
always goes like, oh, I wanna leave, but they asked me to stay, so I had to like, no, you are complicit in this.
Krystle: 34:02
Oh yeah. Well, and, and that scene where, where Tom hits Myrtle, he doesn't leave until somebody else goes, like the, the other guy. I, I, we never see this person again. So I like, I don't really grasp who he is, but the other guy's like, peace out, I'm outta here. And Nick is like, yeah, me too. I'm good.
Sara: 34:21
was, he was one of the, he lived
Krystle: 34:23
an acquaintance of
Lilly: 34:25
Mm-hmm.
Sara: 34:25
in, like the apartment below Myrtle's Love Nest.
Krystle: 34:30
pad. Yeah,
Sara: 34:31
Yeah. So he's just some rando in the building basically.
Krystle: 34:35
yeah, yeah. And he's like, I don't have time for this. These people are too much for me. I'm outta here.
Lilly: 34:41
Which was also a fascinating, like if we draw some between Tom and Gatsby, they both throw parties for the underclass on their dime, but just at such different scales, right? Tom is like, let's invite some people over to this hotel room and waste a bunch of champagne and whiskey and get like absolutely obliterated and punch my mistress. Which is a different kind of party, but it's still that opulent over the top that
Krystle: 35:09
Yeah. It's like, look, look at, look at me. Because he very specifically pick picks up mistress who from the description is like even further below Nick.'cause it's like West Egg is considered kind of trashy, but then you go, you have to drive through this really awful area. And like he's, he's chosen a mistress who is so far below his station and it feels very intentional because
Sara: 35:36
I mean, it's a power move.
Lilly: 35:37
Yeah.
Krystle: 35:37
Yeah, exactly. And it's a power move for Gatsby too, to throw these, you know,'cause it's like he's got it in his head that the reason Daisy didn't marry me is because I'm poor and he married a rich guy, so I know what I'll do. I'll get rich and then she'll have no choice. And it's like, okay buddy, good luck with that. And, and it goes about as well as one would expect that to go. Yeah, it's all power. They're, they're all trying to flex on each other. Although it was really weird how, how much Tom and Gaby hung out in the second half of the book. It's like, what are we doing here, guys? What's,
Sara: 36:16
but that, that also feels like
Krystle: 36:19
The the power
Sara: 36:20
on both of their parts. Like they're trying to, to show the other person that they're not afraid of, you know of them.
Krystle: 36:29
The other guy. Yeah. And
Lilly: 36:30
The, the new money, old money tension. That's
Krystle: 36:33
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of money, I don't let, now I, this could just be me and my unfamiliarity with some of the classics, but I, I don't think I ever fully realized that, or I've never heard anyone talk about how Gatsby is a crime boss
Lilly: 36:54
Yeah.
Krystle: 36:55
and like, is that, is that not something that people talk about when they discuss this book? Like, why haven't I, or
Lilly: 37:03
simplified down to he's a bootlegger, like he's selling alcohol during prohibition,
Krystle: 37:08
Yeah, but it's very
Lilly: 37:10
classy way to make money, which is what Tom gets at. Right? Like,
Krystle: 37:14
yeah, yeah. Well, but see, I picked up even more than that. So the first,
Lilly: 37:19
some kind of bond scheme.
Krystle: 37:22
It's more than that. It, he's a, he's a crime boss. Or rather, I think Wolf Wolf Wolfs
Lilly: 37:27
Wolf chime I think is,
Krystle: 37:29
boss.
Lilly: 37:30
yeah
Krystle: 37:30
and
Lilly: 37:31
kind of his face, because Gatsby can talk the talk. He can fake being a, a rich folk.
Krystle: 37:37
Yeah. And, and I found it really interesting how it's threaded through. First of all, that prohibition itself is never mentioned. It's mentioned occasionally that he's a bootlegger. And it's mentioned once that somebody near the end didn't like Gatsby because he drinks openly and that's it. And
Sara: 37:57
Gatsby doesn't drink
Lilly: 37:59
Yeah,
Sara: 38:00
thing.
Lilly: 38:01
at at the parties. It's always him not
Sara: 38:03
does not drink, but he provides a lot of alcohol for
Krystle: 38:06
oh, yes, I'm misquoting, that's my, that's my bad. It's, he was one of those who used to sneer most bitterly at Gatsby on the courage of Gatsby's liquor. So the fact that Gatsby was allowing liquor in his house openly in the midst of prohibition. And so, like, I had to check, I checked and it says in the book that allegedly, this takes place in 1922, and it was published in 1925. So it, to me, it was an interesting, probably not on purpose in that, you know, the, you know, the states were in the midst of prohibition and probably everyone just assumed that everyone would always know what Prohibition was, because certainly his readers knew exactly what he was talking about. And so it's treated as just this, this thing that's very real and it's not world built at all in that way that people who write about the real world get to do.
Lilly: 38:59
kind of like throwing out something about the
Krystle: 39:01
Yeah,
Lilly: 39:02
like, oh yeah, that pandemic, no
Krystle: 39:04
pana. Yeah. And a hundred years from now, unless you read your history, you would, you wouldn't really know why it was so, and so it was an interesting thing. And so then that led me off into picking up all of these mentions where I had, I had a, a little smells like organized crime every time because it's like. Wolf Chime has this thing about, you know, his friend was shot in the street and then just is like, and so we're gonna do business together. Right? And it's like he, he just told Nick that he's dangerous and his business is dangerous, but you're coming in with me. And Nick is like, no, no. And Gatsby is like, we'll talk about that later. That's some other guy. And so it's like there's this active crime going on in the background of this entire
Sara: 39:53
I wonder how much of the lack of discussion is because this book is taught in high schools
Krystle: 40:02
Yeah.
Sara: 40:03
kind of simplified and like, I've not read,
Krystle: 40:06
And so they focus on,
Sara: 40:08
and I've not read any scholarship around Fitzgerald or this book in particular. But I wonder if a lot of what you see online is kind of more geared towards those high school students who are first,
Krystle: 40:22
it could be.
Sara: 40:23
reading this book, and there is more discussion of that in the more academic
Krystle: 40:28
be, would, well, wouldn't high school students be more interested if they knew that this guy was like, I know I
Lilly: 40:35
you're talking about effective teaching and not protecting the poor dear 14 year olds.
Krystle: 40:41
Who don't know. Okay. I guess so. That's fair.
Lilly: 40:43
I am Fas you mentioned earlier, Kay, that this is a book written of the Times in the Times, and that
Krystle: 40:49
yeah.
Lilly: 40:50
so striking to me. I don't know, like there's a lot of things set in the twenties, but this was written in the
Krystle: 40:56
In the
Lilly: 40:57
it's happening like it, it takes place three years before it was published, so it must have been written at the time. And I think something about that gives it such a more sincere energy
Krystle: 41:09
Yeah. Well, and I think that's part of why the discussion just kind of flies under the radar for us. Literally a hundred years later, I wrote somewhere, this is a crime novel in disguise.
Lilly: 41:21
Yeah.
Krystle: 41:22
That drugstore business was just small change. But you've got something on now that Walter's afraid to talk about. That was the line that like clicked the puzzle together for me. And, and I think my hypothesis is that he's treating this crime in the same way that he treated prohibition, in that he's assuming that everybody who reads the book knows about it and he doesn't have to talk about it at length, because everybody in high society knows a couple of people who are low new money and extremely dangerous in the same way that everybody of the time at the time are gonna click to it immediately, because they all know a guy that you don't ask too many questions about. And so it, like, it got me really energized in the sniffing of the crime novel in the middle of this book.
Sara: 42:11
what I'm hearing is that I really want to read this book, but rewritten so that it is about the crime
Krystle: 42:19
Yeah. Yeah. I I have good news for you. I'm writing it.
Sara: 42:23
Oh, fantastic.
Krystle: 42:24
Yeah. Yeah. I'm writing it and
Sara: 42:26
Okay. But, but please, please have a couple of more likable characters just for me.
Krystle: 42:31
yes. Yes. I will definitely do that. And so, like, on that specific note, it was such an interesting thing for me on a personal level I started with this book. This was my first book of, I'm gonna write about the 1920s, what should I read? And this was the first one, and I've read a whole bunch since then. Both fiction and nonfiction, and now I'm coming back to it going, this is a fucking crime novel. Because now I know so much more about the crime of the time. So that's my, that's my big pitch for Gatsby. Like if ever you hear about it and you're like, I'm not interested in reading about awful people, what if one of them is a mobster? Are you interested?
Sara: 43:09
but you still probably, I mean, it's still about awful people and it doesn't, it doesn't focus on him
Krystle: 43:15
them at all.
Sara: 43:16
so.
Krystle: 43:17
But then you get to play the, the detective game with me and finding all the one off lines that very clearly call this man a mobster. And
Lilly: 43:25
Oh, and the, the huge implied, I mean, not even implied corruption, what a police officer tries to pull him over and he's just like, look, it's a picture of me with the police commissioner. Don't ask questions.
Krystle: 43:37
well, yeah, actually that ties even. I did, I missed that because I, I wasn't onto my crime novel thread in that scene. Because I think that's right before he meets
Sara: 43:48
It's pretty early on,
Lilly: 43:50
Yeah. It it's on their way to meeting Wolfs chime and,
Krystle: 43:53
if anything that proves my point,
Lilly: 43:56
yeah. No, it's, it's the corruption. It's
Krystle: 43:58
them in his pocket. yeah.
Lilly: 43:59
rich don't follow the rules and no one is trying to make them.
Krystle: 44:04
Especially if they have mob ties
Lilly: 44:06
Well, yeah.
Krystle: 44:07
because everybody talks about Chicago. So like in theory, this motherfuckers got ties to Al Capone and stuff, so I'm going too far now. I'm, I'm just inventing stuff. I'm self-aware.
Lilly: 44:19
it's, it's of the era, though. Something that shocked me. I maybe I, I picked it up last time I read it. I don't know, but so Wolf chime is Jewish, which we, we get on the page and he works for the swastika company, and then at some point, after everything falls apart, Nick refers to it as the Holocaust. And I'm reading this going,
Krystle: 44:41
What an
Lilly: 44:41
words sure have changed.
Krystle: 44:43
Yeah, because when he wrote that, those, those words weren't, those
Lilly: 44:48
No.
Krystle: 44:48
have the same weight.
Lilly: 44:51
That, that's just this novel's historical like p puzzle piece.
Krystle: 44:55
Yeah.
Lilly: 44:56
it is something that I had to go like, okay, wait, different. He, he was not trivializing the Holocaust by comparing it to a woman, cheating on her husband.
Krystle: 45:06
Yeah. I did the same thing es es especially with Wolfs chime and him going to the offices that are like the swastika something or other, and I'm like, Hmm, that, that sure is a choice. Oh, wait,
Lilly: 45:20
Maybe
Krystle: 45:20
have been a choice in 1923. So actually Okay. Then
Lilly: 45:24
Yeah.
Krystle: 45:25
words, words change in a hundred years or 20 years.
Lilly: 45:29
I, I mean, 10, not that like,
Krystle: 45:31
Yeah. 10
Lilly: 45:33
yeah. It just like the, the fact that this book and that is like such a comment on it being so of the time, just to keep repeating what you said earlier, but it's just so true. Like, and that makes it so special, I think, because how often are people writing about their, now it's always like, like right now everyone writes about the eighties or the nineties. I feel maybe everyone is a broad generalization, but you get that like people wanna write about 10 years ago.
Krystle: 46:04
Well, I, I, I think, and it, it's to make that same comparison right now, we're all dealing with this, the, the aftershock of, you know, 2020 in a way that it's like, I don't wanna write about that. That sucks. And so people go back to before it, like, I, I had a novel idea of like writing now in this world, and then I was like, oh, but. Lockdown. I don't wanna write about lockdown. And so I've been thinking about writing it in the seventies or the eighties because no phones, no Twitter, no COVID doesn't sound that bad. But you're right that it does make Gatsby really special in this way of being
Sara: 46:52
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I, I'm not sure I entirely agree. Like yes.
Krystle: 46:57
It, it is probably more common in lit in literature generally,
Sara: 47:01
Yeah, like, like Gatsby.
Krystle: 47:02
of their time.
Sara: 47:03
You're, you're right, Gatsby is very much of its time. But I wonder how much of the, of our perception that that is a unique or different thing to do is filtered through what we read specifically. Like, because we read a, an
Krystle: 47:23
romance novels,
Sara: 47:25
of fantasy and science fiction that even when it, even when it does take place in, you know,
Krystle: 47:31
our world or
Sara: 47:32
our world, it's not usually our time period. But that doesn't mean that there aren't genres that don't do that.
Lilly: 47:42
I mean, you're right. You, that's like how, and now with the internet and there's so many books being written and,
Krystle: 47:48
but also those of us living in our time probably don't reflect on how special our time is, whereas since we're reading a book from a hundred years ago, it feels special because we have this little time capsule. And I'm sure, you know, if the world still exists and reads in 21, 25. People will find our little time capsules of the writers that do write our time and be like, oh, this is so interesting. This is so novel and so different compared to whatever hellscape they're living in. Godspeed to them.
Lilly: 48:24
Yeah, I, I guess my comment was more on the volume of writing that there is today in a way that just wasn't the case in 1925.
Krystle: 48:35
Yeah. That also makes sense
Lilly: 48:38
and so I'm, yes, I am talking about trends and generalizations because I'm sure there are millions of people writing about today, today, but it's not filtering
Krystle: 48:49
to read less SFF
Lilly: 48:51
Yeah.
Sara: 48:52
I like, I, I think, I think that's partly a genre thing,
Lilly: 48:54
But even then, like I read news, like I get book release news. I see headlines about books that are coming out, and they're not about right now.
Sara: 49:04
but they, but they are, like, I see a lot
Krystle: 49:07
Yeah, you're
Sara: 49:07
and I do actually see a lot that take place in, you know, 2020 or 2022 like that do take place
Krystle: 49:15
notice my, my 12-year-old reads a lot of like high school now stuff because the genre, like the YA genre is, more firmly rooted even if it's S-F-F is more firmly rooted in the now for them. Even if they, they branch off into magic somehow along the way it's still like, such and such was a sophomore in high school and it's like, okay,
Lilly: 49:39
Mm-hmm.
Krystle: 49:40
just reading a lot of high school books. But yeah, I think Sarah's right. It's, it's us we're the problem.
Sara: 49:47
yeah. Yeah,
Lilly: 49:49
Well, and I, and I think maybe that impression is just, there are so many things being written that you don't, there are niche corners, whereas.
Krystle: 49:58
we're not clocking at
Lilly: 49:59
When there's, what three books published a year or whatever it was in the 1920s. If you were one of the five people who could read, then yeah, you read'em.
Krystle: 50:09
I think it was slightly more than that, but I'm not gonna fact check it.
Sara: 50:13
No officially.
Lilly: 50:14
me and, and leave a comment and tell me
Krystle: 50:16
Yeah, that's, that's for the viewers. Yeah.
Lilly: 50:19
was interesting though, Kay, that you mention ya being sort of rooted in the high school experience now, and that does bring us sort of relatability to a story that the great, the Great Gatsby, the overarching plot is, I would argue, at least for me, not relatable. I guess if you're F Scott Fitzgerald, it's relatable. But that's what you get for marrying an unhinged southern belle.
Krystle: 50:47
Yeah. Well also he was, he was trying to do the same thing of climbing the social ladder. Just considerably less successfully than Jay Gatsby does, I think, as
Lilly: 50:58
but doesn't get murdered. So maybe
Krystle: 51:00
But yeah, maybe wealth. More also less murder. Yeah.
Sara: 51:05
on what your metrics are for success.
Lilly: 51:08
But
Krystle: 51:09
Live fast. Die young. He failed. Yeah. I think, I don't know what age he died.
Lilly: 51:13
But I, I do think there were
Sara: 51:15
or something.
Lilly: 51:17
yeah, still pretty young.
Sara: 51:18
Yeah, he, he did die pretty young, but it, it wasn't murder.
Lilly: 51:22
but I'm gonna finish my thought. But there were many individual emotional beats that I found very relatable, and I thought that was in like, there are so many moments of like, oh. The, that comradery between women who had never met each other before. And I was like, yes, I've been there. I've been that person or the, the optimism and hope of
Krystle: 51:46
quiz that I'm super failing. Which two? Never
Lilly: 51:50
two? Oh, I, that was just a quote, that was literally just the quote that I had written down. And it's not even a direct quote. I can find the exact one.
Krystle: 51:58
Oh, I see. Okay. But not, not main characters.
Lilly: 52:02
no, no, no. It's just a, it's just a throwaway line that Fitzgerald throws in there about just like, you know, two randoms at a party. And I was like, oh shit. Yeah. But actually, yes, that is so true. and it's these really small moments like that, that are really impactful,
Krystle: 52:18
of, of the ones in that vein that I highlighted is on the first page where it's like most, he says, most of the confidences were unsought. Frequently I have faint sleep preoccupation or a hostile levity. When I realized by some unmistakable sign that an intimate revelation was quivering on the horizon, motherfuckers describing trauma dumping people are trauma dumping on him because he's a, he's a listener, and he's like, no, man, I don't want it. Leave me alone. And, and that was like on the first page that set the tone for me. And I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna meet you where you're going. And I think you're talking about the same thing a hundred years, nothing has changed.
