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Nostalgia Book Club: Wild Magic by Tamora Pierce with OWWR Pod

Episode 53

Release Date: August 3, 2022

SPOILER WARNING: This entire episode contains spoilers for Wild Magic, the Immortals Series, The Song of the Lioness Series, and other Tortall books.

Your hosts are joined by Hannah and Laura from On Wednesdays We Read for a Nostalgia Book Club episode (it’s a thing now). They talk about Wild Magic by Tamora Pierce, an extremely foundational Tween Girl Has Secret Magic Powers and Saves the World book (and also there are horses. And wolves). They still love it, but the nostalgia goggles got a little bit busted (upon discovering the absurd age difference between the main character and her love interest. Yikes.) The crew also discusses Pierce’s work overall and how most of it holds up pretty well (except for that age difference. Can’t stress that enough.)

You can find more Nostalgia Book Club episodes here:

Listen to On Wednesdays We Read here:

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:04

Hello and welcome to fiction sands a podcast where we read books and childhood fantasies to

Sara 00:11

Lily. And I'm Sarah and I'm so thrilled that we are being joined by Hannah and Laura from on Wednesdays we read to talk about Wild Magic. Buy more pierce with us. Hey, hi. We're

Hannah 00:23

excited to be here.

Laura 00:25

So excited to talk about this book.

Lilly 00:27

I'm not going to say that it's revenge for Heartland

Hannah 00:35

Laura did say at least was Heartland I had the distal defector here.

Laura 00:40

Nothing at all. Like I went in totally blind.

Hannah 00:42

They would implied to Heartland to

Lilly 00:46

that's why it's the perfect exchange and everything

Sara 00:48

is at least presumably you weren't reading this book on an airplane.

Laura 00:55

Was that was that the revenge? I should have done like gone to a very public place and read this book.

Lilly 01:01

Yes. Or listened to the audiobook like full blast. Hers. made everyone share with

Hannah 01:09

Laura just talked about like she owns a shop with her husband and someone complained about the music she was playing because it was like music to sing in the showers. So she she just turned on Muzak was like, Are you punishing people? Because they complained about the music. And she was like, yes, yes, I am. And so I feel like this could have been a great punishment. It would have worked.

Lilly 01:32

Oh, okay. Before we like run away with ourselves too much talking about this masterpiece, and I'm only like one quarter joking with something great that happened recently for everyone.

Sara 01:43

My good thing is that my favorite cousin in the world came and visited me for my birthday. That was fine.

Lilly 01:49

That's not my good thing. Sorry.

Sara 01:57

I'm wounded. How can you do this to me?

Lilly 02:02

Happy belated birthday.

Hannah 02:05

Happy belated birthday. Thank you.

Lilly 02:08

Now that's not true. That is my good thing. That's very sweet. That wasn't on purpose. But it worked out perfectly. So I got to meet the pugs. We got to drink too much whiskey. It was a lovely night.

Hannah 02:22

What a good night indeed. Yes, sounds fine. My good thing I haven't like so harried and hectic because I'm mid move. I'm Hannah. Just figured I would say yeah, because you and I did not actually say our names. But today this morning, I like delivered one of my friends coffee who recently had a baby and I got to hold a brand new baby and she actually has two kids under two. That's a crazy amount of babies. But I got to play with like a one year old and hold a newborn. And that was very fun.

Laura 02:50

Because I'm Laura. By default. My good thing this week was I started my incubator. So in like 17 ish days, I'm gonna have some baby chicks.

Lilly 03:03

More babies, although have a different flavor.

Hannah 03:06

Probably more fun.

Laura 03:09

noisier, kind. Yes. But so cute.

Lilly 03:12

Wonderful. And what is everyone drinking this lovely, gorgeous sunny day for me, at least hopefully everyone else to

Laura 03:21

rain in here. But oh, I'm sorry. I'm drinking a Rubeus chai tea. I got it from tandem Tea Company. So it's really good. Highly recommend.

Sara 03:31

They do have good tea.

Lilly 03:32

Perfect for the rain, too. Yes.

Hannah 03:36

We just had the thunderstorm blow through here. So we're having a moment of sunshine before it rains again. Laura lives directly before me and weather so it hits her and then it hits me. But I am drinking coffee because I'm very sleepy because I did not get good sleep. So it's 2pm and I may regret it later.

Sara 03:55

It is beautiful and sunny here. I am sticking with ice water. Because it's very hot.

Lilly 04:01

You gotta stay hydrated. Yeah, I know the responsible one. I'm drinking and ice cold to town cider. I think they're a depends on your definition of local. I think they're from Oregon, which is, I mean, if you just lump the whole Pacific Northwest together, it counts.

Sara 04:18

I mean, it's more local than something from the other side of the country.

Lilly 04:21

That's true. It's not angry. I can always say that.

Sara 04:25

It's good side or two though. I like to towns

Lilly 04:28

Oh, yeah. And this is their Cosmic Crisp, which is the fun science apple that like it doesn't go bad. Or takes like an astronomically long time to go bad to cut down on science. I love that. Yeah. And has anyone read anything good lately? I'm going to interrupt and start because my answer is yes for once. That's exciting. On our road trip down. That involves seeing Sarah although the Grand Canyon was a little bit more impressive than I'm sorry.

Sara 05:03

Excuse me. Are you saying that I do not like stand up to the Grand Canyon?

Laura 05:09

The eighth wonder of the world?

Lilly 05:10

I mean, I didn't say that. But, like the first wonder and she's the Eighth Wonder so it's like still on the scale. We are drove for 58 hours, which is exactly how long it takes to listen to the Lord of the Rings unabridged audiobook. Got to reread that for the first time in a couple of years. And it's so good. It's so good. I forgot how funny talking is.

Hannah 05:40

I feel like everything I've been reading has been podcast related lately. I shoved Wild Magic in this week along with Pierre Niecy by Susanna Clarke, which I'm also I think we're all also covering for a different podcast. So it's very good, though, so everyone should

Sara 05:56

pick it up. I have not started reading Piranesi yet.

Hannah 06:01

I thought I had less time to finish. I thought it was due this week. And it's not due for a few weeks. So you're good. Yeah.

Laura 06:09

So I've been reading a book that I got on Net Galley. And you guys are my Mary Roach lovers. So you would probably also like this book, but it's called bitch. And it's by Lucy cook. It's called bitch on the female of the species. And it's a nonfiction that kind of delves into the female of different species in the reproductive traits and habits is really interesting. And it's also a science book that's kind of accessible and easy to understand. So check it out.

Sara 06:40

That does sound good. Yeah, have to make a note of that. But it's more easily available, widely more widely available.

Hannah 06:48

Laura, when does the book come out?

Laura 06:50

Yeah, just released on June 14.

Sara 06:53

So I have been reading the third book in the Indus series by Sherwood Smith. A little slow going not because of the book, but just because my reading time has been much diminished. But it's a very good book. Yeah, we

Lilly 07:06

read the first one for the podcast and you just couldn't stop it.

Sara 07:09

This is very true. Yeah, I was like, Okay, I guess I'm rereading the entire series.

Hannah 07:14

That's awesome. Well,

Lilly 07:16

speaking of hardcore nostalgia factor, thank you both. For reading Tamara pierce with us.

Hannah 07:23

Happy to do it was a nice trip down memory lane.

Laura 07:27

What a wild ride.

Lilly 07:30

I think I mentioned this before we started recording, but young Lily like eight nine year old Billy read this book. So many times.

Sara 07:40

I mean, I feel like tomorrow Paris was very formative for the both of us. I also read this book quite a lot. I always was more

Lilly 07:49

interested in her toward Hall books than the circle of magic ones.

Sara 07:53

See, that's where we differ. I liked the circle of magic books

Hannah 07:56

better. I grew up like ancillary to Timur like a Tamara. I cannot pronounce her name right ever.

Sara 08:04

I mean, I don't know if we're pronouncing it right either. So

Hannah 08:06

that's true. It's anyone's guess at this point. Could we have researched it? Maybe did we know. But we talked about this off pod as well. But I counted these books as very horse girl books and Laura and Hannah of our Potter famously childhood horse girls. So I definitely started with the immortal series. So I started with Wild Magic on my timber appears journey and then like, went back to Alana, but definitely didn't read all of her books. Like at some point I fell off, but I couldn't tell you where I think I

Sara 08:39

fell off when I was about I want to say like 15 or 16 or so. So I've I think I read the first two Kel books, but I'm not sure if I read like the last

Lilly 08:49

two. I started the series about Alana is daughter. Wow. But those like the first two came out, and then I grew up

Hannah 09:06

that growing up as a pesky thing when it comes to

Laura 09:12

my journey is a little different because I started it 30 I'm so sorry. I don't think it was a ton of fun.

Lilly 09:24

Like how we were missing that nostalgia factor for the Heartland series. I feel like you must have had a lot of patience for this.

Laura 09:34

My biggest regret is not reading the ebook and instead opting for the audio I should have not procrastinated and just read the ebook because the audio book is like a dramatic audio book with a full cast and there's music is very

Hannah 09:54

dramatic. So we both listen to the audiobook. And like I think a good reminder of this This is for children. Yeah, definitely. So would you go with as an adult listening to it and you hear like, they're trying to keep children engaged and like what keeps children?

Laura 10:10

Yeah, if you hear a character going

Hannah 10:18

like over the top like, Bob's, why does everyone keep doing that? It's just up there. Like whenever she

Laura 10:24

has a thought, it's like echoey. No.

Hannah 10:31

And whoever played the voice of the horse, like it's one of those things where I was listening to it and I was like, I feel like this book shouldn't have the the animals actually talking. The book right now

Laura 10:44

the Badger sounds like some man from New York.

Hannah 10:50

At Laura's, right? Like, all of a sudden, there will be like any breakthroughs music like an outro. So it'll be like, digital. Changing scenes.

Lilly 11:03

Oh, that's so funny. I really disliked that they gave the animals different voices. Because through most of this book, Dane is just you know, talking to them out loud. Like how I talked to my cats. Spoiler alert. I do not have Wild Magic and cannot understand

Hannah 11:20

them. But I'm sure you wish you did when you were a child.

Lilly 11:25

STOP WISHING. So many of those conversations just sound like her internal monologue or read like her internal monologue. You know, conversing with animals like you do. I imagine that's not a unique trait. But you're making a face? Do you not talk to your pets? Oh, no, I definitely talk to my pets. I'm

Hannah 11:47

thinking about like, how weird I thought the book that everyone kept commenting on how much she was talking to the animals like, like she talked to them as if they could answer it. I was like, does it everyone?

Laura 11:58

The same time like if you saw somebody doing this in public, like just going over to like a random squirrel in the park and be like, What are you doing over there?

Sara 12:09

feel weird.

Hannah 12:10

Sometimes it would be to like her horse cloud. And she'd be like, no fussing about and they're like she talked as if he could answer her. And I'm like, you probably still would say that. Yeah, that's how you talk to a horse. It's not that.

Lilly 12:27

Yeah, but I think having voice actors kind of ruins that effect, because finding out that they do actually understand her and are truly like communicating back to her was maybe not the most earth shattering twist in the world.

Laura 12:40

I mean, I called it pretty early on.

Lilly 12:47

In case listeners couldn't tell, this book was about a girl with Animal Magic. Yes. Also, she saves, I guess not the world quite yet. Is that a spoiler? She's the like, most amazing, honest person ever and does a lot of incredible things and saves everyone. Everyone's so happy

Hannah 13:04

about it. On her first try. And usually the only detriment is sometimes she passes out a little bit.

Lilly 13:12

The wish fulfillment for young girls in this book is off the charts.

Hannah 13:17

I made a note in like your notes is just like, this is just about wish fulfillment of every fantasy dream. It's like animals come to sleep with this girl. And she's so great. And all the animals love her. Everyone just wants her.

Laura 13:33

Yeah, I definitely remember like watching Wild Thornberrys as a kid and thinking that was such a cool show. Because she could talk to animals and do all these things. This is like taking it to another level, giving her even more abilities and interactions with animals. And so I think as a kid, I would have been like, in love with this series.

Sara 13:52

I mean, I feel like that. Yeah, like that's the appeal of it. For girls, like you get to read about this girl doing all of these cool things. Having all of these cool powers, talking to animals, you know, and being the

Lilly 14:08

most specialist in the whole world.

Sara 14:11

Yeah. Every every one loves you.

Laura 14:13

Early on, all the other characters will like not only comment about her talking to animals, but they'll be like, I've never seen anyone that had these kinds of abilities with horses. What a natural gift that she has, and like, okay, but then she's also like, really good Archer. It's meant to like everything. She's amazing. And they're like, Wow. So it's awesome to be really good at things.

Sara 14:38

I mean, I like I wish that I was an amazing Archer and

Hannah 14:41

that all of these skills I know save ah, I also think there's like a little bit of wish fulfillment for like young girls because it's like a nine or 10 year old reading this book about a 13 year old girl like that's important. She's definitely 13 And like every single adult treats her like she's an adult and I feel like young kids are like Yes, I'm being treated like an adult, I do adult things. Which energy from that? I feel like

Lilly 15:07

when I first read this book, The like, ages meant nothing to me. So 13 was just as much of an adult as a 30 year old ages. I was like, 13 that's a teenager.


Oh, yeah.

Sara 15:27

So growing up, like

Lilly 15:28

it did not register at all how much younger she was than all of the other characters.

Hannah 15:34

Because at some point, she's babysitting. And I'm like, Yeah, that's an appropriate job for a 13 year old. Okay, but that she's treating the children like they're like, so tidy. And I'm like, there's like a four year age difference.

Laura 15:50

Now you're in a power trip.

Lilly 15:55

Everything about this book, though, like, towards Hall, the Kingdom it takes place in this is just like, ultimate good guy, fantasy land, you know, perfect equality. All of the good guys are really nice and genuinely actually good. Just don't have to

Hannah 16:11

worry about poverty.

Lilly 16:14

Not because that's where everything's everybody's all good guys have equal and no one's mean to anyone. Unless it's a teenage boy being mean to a teenage girl, it needs to be shown his place.

Hannah 16:26

Someone else steps in to do that.

Sara 16:30

There is one nobleman who is talked about like, he's kind of mean to people that he rolls over, but he dies pretty early on. So like, you know,

Lilly 16:41

we find out he was a traitor. Right? Like immediately.

Sara 16:45

Real good. No, not not him. Oh, the

Lilly 16:48

the one who's the ogres attacked?

Sara 16:51

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, who was oppressive, and didn't want to arm his citizens.

Hannah 16:57

I did think it was weird to read this as a child's book. And granted, this was written in the 90s. So it's a very 90s Take. But like, overall, the story is about like nobility just being good no matter what. And they're like, righteous, and they're always going to try to feed the people who can't afford it. And at one time, like, Dane screams, like they're bad because they're lazy and just want to steal the money from people who work for it. And I'm like, Yes, that's exactly how nobility work.

Laura 17:25

We've all seen the crown. We know that's true.

Lilly 17:29

Wouldn't it be nice to live in a place where that was true? Right. In medieval Europe, I'll tell you

Sara 17:41

right now, yeah. The other

Lilly 17:45

series in this world with Alana, who's the first lady night in the country, I feel like it's more of a wish fulfillment on the line of proving to those big dumb, stinking boys that girls are just as good as them. And that never resonated with me as much as you know, talking to animals.

Hannah 18:06

I think I read the Elana series when I was a little bit older, and I think that there was a much more plausible romance and Hannah loved a good romance when she was a child even then, so I think I was like, this is more realistic. I like this one better, but it wasn't the whole like, I get to beat up the stinky boys. Although that might have some undertones to it. I don't. I

Lilly 18:25

feel like that was the more like main wish fulfillment. I agree, though. A lot has romantic. How would you like conflict? There's kind of a love triangle in those books.

Hannah 18:35

I honestly do not remember I just remember I liked it.

Sara 18:39

Or something with the king.

Lilly 18:41

Yeah, so like have a relationship through most of the series. And then he ends up being a huge dick and she's like, No, I'm gonna go marry this thief instead.

Sara 18:52

Spoilers for a series? Yeah.

Laura 18:57

How much of your readership is me while I go read this?

Lilly 19:00

You see her and George being like the cutest

Sara 19:02

couple in this book? Uh huh.

Lilly 19:05

So that's what happened. You know?

Laura 19:09

I mean, second cutest couple because there's that much older man who is all talking to Dane.

Hannah 19:20

Are we into spoiler territory? Are you guys doing spoilers? Oh, we gave okay. You gave us I'm just

Lilly 19:25

gonna announce.

Sara 19:27

Aren't these all spoilers? Yeah.

Hannah 19:31

Just like overviews, but

Lilly 19:32

they said you can't talk about this book without spoiling along. That's true.

Hannah 19:37

But Laura, the much older man, new mayor who is in his late 20s in this book for all the listeners, is actually her love interest in the future.

Laura 19:47

I probably could have guessed it. There's me. I should have just known.

Lilly 19:56

See that's so funny because none of our interactions readers roaming anti necessarily romantic, which makes them getting together completely baffling.

Sara 20:05

I do, I do think that their interactions read is a little inappropriate. Given the age difference, the

Laura 20:10

tone in the audiobook gives it all away.

Hannah 20:13

Okay? I didn't hear the tone, but I was also listening at two times the speed. So maybe when it sped up, it feels appropriate.

Laura 20:22

And I hate his nickname for her to like quit calling her Maitland. That's weird. Don't say that.

Lilly 20:28

Oh, well, he's constantly grouped together with like Dane is doing one thing, and the adults are over there doing something else. And he's one


of the adults, I

Laura 20:36

guess I'll be your teacher, you can come stay at my place. And I'll tell you.

Sara 20:43

When I read this, I do not remember picking up on how old he was. When I read it. Like as a child, like, I remember that there was an age difference. I was pretty sure that he was in his 20s. But I thought he was like, you know, maybe 21, which is still a pretty large age gap when the heroine is a 13 year olds, when they meet when she's 30. And they met when she was 13. But I got I got to the page where it says that he's in his late 20s. And I was like, Oh, no. Oh, much worse. But I remembered. So again,

Hannah 21:19

Hannah was all about the romance as a child. And I specifically remember reading these books and being like, well, they could never be together. He's too old for her How disappointing. And little later, I found out that they actually got together and I was like, that doesn't feel right. Child really hard for them. I just like,

Lilly 21:39

I think knowing they get together. Yeah, you you read this book with a different tone. But at the time, like what's what's the worst thing like they hold hands when they're in the middle of like fighting for their lives? That's not necessarily romantic

Laura 21:53

to me mean someone who's 27 obviously is going to be more appealing than a 13 year old, but I just, it's really off putting read it and be like, Why is he flirting with her? Please stop,

Hannah 22:07

like, so like I never came across as quote unquote, flirting. But there was like so many inappropriate undertones for like, there's numerous scenes where she's comforting him. And I'm like that as a child, don't let a child comfort you. And children should make you like children should be cute and affectionate and like appropriate ways. And you should put that boundary down. But like and then at one point, she does hold her hand his hand to like comfort him and I'm like, feel screw me like I don't like.

Lilly 22:36

I mean, yeah. Again, when I read this, I was like, Oh, 13 year olds, and that's a teenager. Like no, no concept of ages at all whatsoever. But again, I also didn't read them as romantic until it happened. And I was like,

Hannah 22:52

Okay, I was so shocked. Oh, they're married. You

Laura 22:57

guys are really distracted by the animals.

Lilly 23:03

No, definitely not. doesn't hold up, as well as in this world. No matter what race you are, you're just as treated just as equally as everyone else. That part's Great. That part works fine. Good for her. These differences. Yikes.

Sara 23:18

Yeah. And I think I read somewhere this could I could totally be wrong about this, because I don't have any kind of evidence to back this up. But I think I read somewhere that she had said that, like that age difference is basically just a kink of hers, which is great. But maybe don't put that into a book for young girls. No, right?

Hannah 23:40

Also don't like if you're talking about age kink, it shouldn't be where a very adult man met a 13 year old girl and then she is like grown up and he's like, Well, now you're appropriate to date. Like you're waiting around for it to happen.

Laura 23:59

Yeah, don't like

Lilly 24:02

okay, Laura. It's so funny to me that I maybe it maybe it is the audio book tone. But at the end of the book, when Danes like I don't know what I'm gonna do, and then every one there was like, No, you should come live with me. Or no, you should come live with me. To me. It felt like just that wish fulfillment of the oddball outcast who suddenly is like, the coolest thing everyone wants you a new mayor was just part of that. It didn't feel like a romantic overture.

Laura 24:30

I mean, I guess I was just creeped out by him. I mean

Hannah 24:36

that's not apparently weren't wrong. Yeah. Well, especially with the next slide is like numerous she can't live with you. There is only you in that building. Around them were like, that's not an option.

Laura 24:49

It wasn't not even anyone to clean. Okay,

Sara 24:57

that's just inappropriate, wildly inappropriate.

Hannah 25:00

It also feels a little wish fulfillment deal with like young girls where it's like all these boys are flirting with me. But like so many boys hit on this 13 year old child, and it's just very bizarre to me.

Lilly 25:12

I do think a lot of those were the other trainees, right. And I think they were closer in age to her. They weren't all adults,

Sara 25:20

but trainees are definitely closer in age. They're like, teen. Yeah, but there's like, a lion or a scene where the king is like, quote, unquote, flirting with her. And Ottawa, who is her boss essentially, tells the kid like, Stop flirting with my assistant. And I feel like that's also an inappropriate thing to be doing with a 13 year old. Yeah.

Hannah 25:45

Also, I'm very big on like, putting it in place of like, okay, 13 year olds, because like, obviously, ages are just, you know, random things. But like 13 year olds are eighth graders and 15 year olds are sophomores in high school. So if like, there was a sophomore in high school, like running around the middle school yard hitting on eighth grader, like they shouldn't be concerned.

Lilly 26:06

Yeah, but from the fantasy wish fulfillment of a 13 year old. Yeah, you want it all the 15 year olds to be madly in love with you. They were the cool older boys. Doesn't make it realistic or acceptable in any way.

Hannah 26:22

I guess flirting can sometimes be like people say you're flirting with children, even though you're not but like, I think that should just be removed from the lexicon. Oh, you're just flirting with this child? No, you're not don't do that?

Lilly 26:35

Well, I think if it hadn't been addressed by the other characters in the book, maybe we could have interpreted as this 13 year old is getting flustered. And she's interpreting it that way. But these are actually just adults being nice to her for the very first time.

Sara 26:51

Yeah. And like that would have been totally fine. I would have understood. But to have the adults like vindicate that viewpoint. That's what makes it schemee.

Hannah 27:03

Agreed. And all the adults like walking around being like, we trust Dane so much, you know what to do with your body? And it's like, No, she doesn't cheat. She needs adult supervision.

Laura 27:13

So many times, it's mentioned like, even towards the end, where it's like, she's just one bad move away from losing her mind. It's like, okay, like, why did we put this much trust in her then I'm

Hannah 27:27

she, she almost killed herself. And once you

Laura 27:33

think about this interesting,

Lilly 27:35

no, no, you don't get it. The Badger told her to it's fine.

Sara 27:39

To also in the in the scene where she almost killed herself. Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone ever explicitly told her like, this is what's happening when you weren't doing this kind of meme. No, no. So like, of course, she's not gonna understand what she's doing. Like that is all the adults,

Laura 27:57

though. Like, say, Oh, we're instructing her. But it's like, where's the instruction?

Hannah 28:02

One of my biggest pet peeves is like people who do not communicate effectively enough and then blame the other person when they did not communicate effectively enough. Yes. The like, numero like, she wakes up. And he's like, did you do that? That's so stupid of you. And he has to like, bound away somewhere to like, cool down. And it's like, she No, no. Fall. She's 13. Stop it.

Sara 28:28

I feel like I would have liked it. If new mayor had acknowledged that he was mad because he was a bad teacher in this respect. I mean, yes. You know, like that would have made sense.

Hannah 28:38

Very much. So.

Lilly 28:41

Alana is great in this book, though.

Laura 28:44

Yeah, it's cool.

Sara 28:45

I mean, I love like, I love this book. Honestly, I love this book. I really enjoyed reading it. For all that I have issues with some of the some of the things that happen in it. I have still have a lot of nostalgia factor for this book. So

Hannah 28:59

I do have a lot on this dojo factor. And I also liked it like, I forgot what it was like to read a book that kind of takes it this time for children like this book is very much like scene setting for we're learning about date, we're learning about her backstory, there's some mystery sprinkled in on a random man showing up with her mom. And I'm like three guesses who that was. He randomly has antlers, let's guess like, but I do think it like actually introduces you to this world really effectively, especially for like a book series where like, Alana came previously to her like, I don't think you're missing out on anything. If you start with the Dane side of things, and I thought that the plotting worked really well. And the messaging of like, hey, maybe if you share information with adults in the room, they're going to be okay, and help you through it. Like that's a good message to teach, like 10 year old children about

Lilly 29:49

because she keeps a secret for so long that she's scared of this power, like her power taking control of her. And so she hides it and it's terrible. And then she finally tells them Wow, that was a really easy solution. That was nice. I did like that. I very much appreciated

Laura 30:05

that. That's like around the time that you learn her backstory and like how she had lost control, and then a bunch of wolves, or know somebody murdered her family. Then he joined a pack of wolves and murdered him. Wow.

Hannah 30:29

It was a very realistic book for 10 year olds to be reading where it's like, and then my grief, murder people.

Lilly 30:38

Oh, and then all of the people she's known her entire life are so freaked out. They try to shoot her like an animal. Yes, talking about trauma. Well, also,

Hannah 30:48

they like she talks about stuff. We're like, why were 10 year olds reading about this? We're like, People screamed that she was like a bastard child. And I was like, yes, really explicitly, like people are being horrifying. And we're just reading about a child's trauma right now.

Sara 31:04

Yeah. I feel like this book could have been very, very dark, because it deals with some very, very dark subjects. Yeah. And yet it doesn't read that way at all. Like, it's just kind of the horrifying aspect of things is just kind of glossed over for the fantasy wish fulfillment.

Lilly 31:24

Well, Laura, I'm guessing that you guessed that when Dean almost dies, and she sees a vision of her mother, that that is her father. I didn't pick up on it. Later, we find out that oh, yeah, he's the God of nature. That's why she's so powerful. She's like a demigod. Yeah, you also get like the Chosen One trope thrown in there. She's most powerful half goddess, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yep.

Laura 31:54

Yeah, it all makes sense. It

Lilly 31:56

doesn't shy away from it at all. Just just like, let's just make her as great as possible. So everyone reading this can pretend to be as great as her.

Sara 32:04

I mean, it really is everything that a 10 year old girl wants to read about.

Hannah 32:10

And I mean, how many boy fantasies are there out there where it's like, he's the most special boy and all the land and no boy is the specialist. He is like, if we get Dane and her inappropriate relationships with

Laura 32:23

I mean, I would say that's probably most adult fantasy novels. So I guess.

Lilly 32:31

Yeah. Like, I don't think I would recommend this book as the most complex storytelling. But I also would not call it a bad book. Just just because it's a little straightforward. It's fine.

Sara 32:44

I mean, and again, we're not as 30 year olds or almost 30 year olds. Like we're we're not necessarily the intended audience for this book.

Hannah 32:55

Don't say

Laura 32:57

definitely recommend it to my third grade friends, though, I mean,

Lilly 33:03

that you hang out ones and the ones

Hannah 33:05

you chat like adults.

Laura 33:08

Like I'm like, Oh, hey, horses.

Hannah 33:13

Yeah, I do think it's like good for the best you could like tell adults about stuff they're not going to judge you meditate on what makes you upset or angry but also mixed messages because you might murder yourself

Laura 33:28

with that meditation

Hannah 33:29

I will also say that this book like imprinted on my mind with the way like magic is supposed to be seen and other stories because like they talked about, like the copper flowing out of her system and how like everything is connected. And I was like, Oh yeah, that's how I see magic a lot. very interconnected system.

Lilly 33:47

And also, so not Danes Wild Magic, but the gift which is the normal spell casting. Do man did it fuck me up when I was nine and it was like yeah, you just have to want something hard enough. How did I sit like staring at a pencil going? I just got a one day

Laura 34:07

I'm almost positive that that is a nonfiction book. Like the secret or something like that where you just like imagine things happening and they come to you so maybe they rip that idea off of the immortal series.

Hannah 34:20

They was about to talk about spoilers for stranger things but I will work

Lilly 34:26

that came out a little bit more recently than the series

Hannah 34:30

oil theory recent show Yeah, I agree. I always thought that like I could have magic I do like that like it's almost like timber appears head above it have realistic thought where like Dane just craps on the magic system that Tamra already made where she's like, the magic system isn't even that good. Like it's inconsistent. People can't always control it so like why are you guys so obsessed with this? I'm like, wow, she was really done with the a lot of books.

Lilly 35:00

I don't know if it's just because I'm comparing the whole series of Alana to the first Dane book. I feel like the Alana books had more mature themes. Like she actually has sex in the later books, which is not Oh, 1314 anymore. And it like addresses birth control. Like they have magic charms that you just like wear a necklace and you can't get pregnant.

Sara 35:27

I think the Alana books were the first books that I can recall reading fantasy books that actually had like a girl getting her period for the first time and needing to deal with that. And I think it comes out in like the immortal series too. But I feel like Dayton, and I could just be talking out of my ass right here, because I don't actually it's been a long time since I've read a lot of books. But I feel like Dane is a little younger. In this that

Hannah 35:54

starts out as it's also a very weird thing. I don't know if you guys remember this as children, but like, the elasticity of what we could read as children was pretty variant because like there wasn't the Internet to tell us what was appropriate. So even when Laura and I were discussing these books, I'm like, I honestly can't remember if I was like in third grade, or fifth grade when I went through like my tore tall phase, because like, I could have been reading about periods when I was nine and been like, whatever. Like, this is just something that's happening. And I don't think that like the grade like age books were as clear as we were growing up.

Lilly 36:30

I kind of love that though. Like being able to read about a character who like deals with this really normal thing to sort of pave the way to not be freaked out by it when it happens to you. It's nice. Yes.

Sara 36:41

Yeah. I mean, I think it's great to see that little bit of realism in a fantasy book for children.

Laura 36:48

Yeah. Even on like the concept of periods themselves sound fantastical if you were to just tell someone

Hannah 36:57

mom I was reading this book it's something really weird happened.

Lilly 37:02

Can you be realistic there magic system is to come up with something like that. That's ridiculous.

Sara 37:11

They also deal with the characters needing bras at some point, and I know that it's dealt with in the immortal series as as Dan grows up, but like, at some point, she has to start wearing a breastfed, I think that's what they were calling them. That makes sense. I liked that, too. I mean, I didn't I don't think I appreciated that as a child that was like, you know, broads gross. But as an as an adult, I like that it deals with those kinds of bodily issues.

Hannah 37:41

I did like outside of the inappropriate relationship with new hair. But like, the beginning of it, she doesn't really find him all that attractive. Like she does see him naked, which is weird. But like, it's very medical, and like, Oh, he's just like, all of a sudden not a bird. Like at one point, she was like, I guess he's good looking. But like the king is so much hotter. That was like, Oh, good. Knowing that they get together. It's good to know that like, it feels more appropriate on her side. My concern is now with him. But I don't blame Dane for those feelings.

Lilly 38:17

Yeah, I think he was being covered by a blanket at that moment. There were still some feathers leftover from a hawk strategically

Hannah 38:35

but more than one, like if it's blue haired, like, you know, like it was more than what it was.

Lilly 38:42

I don't even know. What is there to say about this book.

Laura 38:46

She adopts a dragon. That was like, alright, well, I was not expected, like that type of thing to happen where it was like, Wait, this isn't the adoption storyline we get where she adopts a dragon. Okay,

Hannah 39:03

that's very much wish fulfillment. Like, oh, I heal the mother and she approved of me taking her baby dragon. And now I will raise baby dragon to be by.

Laura 39:14

Her name is Skye song. And I'll just call her kitten, like an awesome name. You're really really

Sara 39:23

I kind of wonder what the mother was thinking. When she's like, I know that I have a newborn child. But I'm gonna go and sacrifice myself for these people, these humans who I didn't like until five minutes ago. Like I'm just you know, they'll take care of my child. That's fine.

Hannah 39:42

Also, there were so many times she could have turned around. Yeah, like, it feels like you didn't know.

Sara 39:50

She makes the decision to keep fighting until she's killed. A poor decision.


It's a bad decision.

Laura 39:57

Definitely a fantasy because animals should never other people?

Hannah 40:03

Well, apparently it's okay because animals should sacrifice themselves from humans. Weren't you reading the book?

Lilly 40:15

I did think it was funny how the local animals are all very loyal to their local humans, and they don't like these invaders, which, like animals wouldn't really parse the difference between local humans and other humans got an accent? No. At least for the bats, they were mad that the humans were like disrupting their nighttime routine or something. That made sense a little bit.

Hannah 40:41

There is like a huge thing where it's like, hey, humans do eat meat. Wouldn't these animals kind of just be like, I've kind of out of this? It feels like it's not about me. One way or another? I might be dinner to someone.

Sara 40:57

Maybe everyone in Tortola is vegetarian.

Hannah 41:01

No, because they talk about like, eat on game and stuff. Yeah. There is also like such a throwaway story plot point that like I think they mentioned in all the books, but I'm just like, why was it this thought about more were people talk about like, any animal that touches Dane become smarter, like anyone who like she hears their thoughts. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, the ethical like giving an animal more sentience, like, just no care?

Lilly 41:33

Oh, I don't know if I'm rewriting history, but I do feel like they does eventually become vegetarian. Does I looked it up? Okay. How could you not? I don't know which one of you guys put this note in the notes. But one of the main conflicts of this series is that hundreds of years ago, mages like, trapped via mortals, which are all of these, like, Monster Monster type hybrid things in the God Realm, basically. And now, the bad guys are letting them back out to fight this war.

Hannah 42:11

Yeah, I put that in there. Because that was also a throwaway line where I was like, wait, wait, wait, can we go back? Because it sounds like this was like meant for humans to take care of. And they just made it someone else's problem. I understand that. That sounds very human as one in the world we live in today, making it someone else's problem. But like the way that like deep breaks it up. One of them goes, I hope that's not true. Or else we're all in, we're in trouble. And then if they just move on. That's really important to talk.

Lilly 42:49

No, that's exactly right. Because they're talking about how terrible it is that the storm storm wings, I think are the like metal Harvey type monsters, although they're both male and female, so not exactly herpes, but whatever. How terrible it is that they're back and Dane says well, maybe they're meant to be humans natural predator. Maybe they're supposed to be here and all of the adults are like, no, no, no. Sounds like

Hannah 43:16

it's gonna be bad for us. Yeah, does not do that. And then let's bring in other immortals like dragons and griffins to fight our battles for us. Even though we're maybe just that to die and it'll be okay in the end because DNS here Oh, but

Lilly 43:31

it's the bad guys doing that. The good guys that it's the bad guys who that's how you know, it's the bad thing to do.

Hannah 43:39

bothered me. So I hope that's not true.

Lilly 43:46

I like that not all of you mortals are the bad guy monsters, right like the Griffins live in perfect harmony will eventually after some negotiation held are able to live in perfect harmony with the village they live next to

Sara 44:02

I feel like the storm wings kind of get some bad PR because it's not their fault that like they literally need to eat dead body is and the most effective way of doing that as you know, being around when there's a war.

Hannah 44:15

And if they are natural predators to humans. It kind of just sounds like what the humans are doing to all the game in the forest and they think they should fight for them. So yeah, it's Yeah, chain issue. The storm wings voices in the audio book are just the most baffling thing. They sound exactly like what you think they would sound like if you ratcheted them up to like a comedic level



Hannah 44:50

and like the way de like causes some kind of bodily harm on the Queen and she's like, I am going to hunt this one person down and murder her very specific when it's like, aren't you killing many, many humans? And it's like, we're not talking about that my I

Lilly 45:12

I'd be pretty pissed if someone shot one of my eyes out as well. That's fair. Yeah.

Sara 45:19

When it stays all policy, talk about how policy that is.

Hannah 45:24

They're very quick to point out like the issues of the other side because she's like, I guess they don't have healers. And I'm like, well, at least they explain the logical leaps that are here. Like the other side has magic. But she still has pus in her eyes. So what's going on there?

Lilly 45:38

Oh, I thought they were talking about the storm wings specifically. Because they have some magic, right? They can kind of be invisible or non detectable. Yes. So I thought they meant like their magic is not healing.

Sara 45:53

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well.

Hannah 45:56

Now, it was my mistake.

Lilly 45:57

Why were the Carfax mages not healing their storm wing allies? That is a question that is not.

Hannah 46:04

Yeah, that's what I was wondering where it was like, it sounds like the other side should have healers. That sounds like really bad planning.

Lilly 46:11

No, no, no, they're bad guys. They just do board magic.

Hannah 46:16

Also an interesting thing to put in a children's book to take it back to the dragon. But like a dragon who has a baby dead inside them was a very graphic thing to happen.

Lilly 46:27

Yeah, literally getting yanked through to our our realm of the tort Hall realm causes a miscarriage and

Hannah 46:34

yeah, and it's like an Dane Of course, Hilter because Dane Hills all but like, it's so sudden that like, it's all of a sudden like Dane feels power coming out of her that she's like, you're having a baby. Like, this was not where I saw this.

Laura 46:54

I also felt like the scene with the whales was kind of a lot too. I I didn't know how to handle it. Honestly.

Hannah 47:06

You mean the pacifists that are like crapped out a billion times for being

Sara 47:18

the wisest creatures that.

Lilly 47:22

Also, which we also should talking to, because there's a lot of whales that hunt.


Right? Yeah. Not tall.

Hannah 47:29

No, there's one.

Laura 47:31

These are all just like humpback whales. Apparently, they were talking about.

Hannah 47:37

I also liked that. Sea water can heal everything. Are you fatigued, getting the water? You'll feel better?

Lilly 47:46

Oh, that salt, man.

Sara 47:49

I can't remember. Does the Kraken ever show up again? Like do they have to deal with that? Because it feels like that should be one immortals that. No one can just like put back in a box. The way that date and Alana at the numeron. Alana do.

Lilly 48:04

Apparently. We do hear secondhand. But yeah, right. It's described as this like, horrifying monster from the depths and all it takes is numeron. Alana going get out of here. And he runs away terrified.

Laura 48:17

Yeah, like that's right with everything

Hannah 48:24

we have to be prepared for when he comes back. And it feels like he should still be here. Why has he left?

Lilly 48:34

Don't ask questions.

Laura 48:36

I think that's the biggest thing you had to sustain your disbelief Yes.

Hannah 48:40

Because she wanted a child to actually want to finish the book. And if it gets too long, the third graders going to lose interest.

Laura 48:46

four chapters of them and explaining that.

Lilly 48:51

The seed so quick, it's like one chapter. It's like 50 pages of all of the fighting and all of the resolution.

Hannah 49:00

Also, the resolution is there like get away crack it and then she just falls asleep and she wakes up and they're like it's all over and it's like really fortunate.

Sara 49:11

I mean, like that feels like tomorrow parents just didn't want to be bothered to write that. Which I can understand. You know,

Lilly 49:18

more horse Talk less the crack and drama.

Hannah 49:23

Well, Cloud is like a new human because she's been around Dane for so long. She's like the smartest being in all of the world. And again, that makes me like there's an ethical dilemma about date talking.

Lilly 49:37

I loved cloud. She is so just like not takes no shit. I think she's the only one who does not let new mayor order her around.

Hannah 49:52

Also new mayor has questionable like job description, because what exactly does he do


that It turns into a

Laura 50:04

best mage ever.

Sara 50:08

He's one of he's one of seven. There are only seven of them, but you

Hannah 50:12

put a dampener spell around him and his hands are tied.

Lilly 50:18

But how many Sorcerer's did it take to do that?

Hannah 50:21

If only a llanover around and the two of them could link hands and they would all be fine. That's also a plus.

Lilly 50:29

They do eventually go to the Karthik because at the country. Yeah. I remember that vaguely. And then there's God shenanigans.

Hannah 50:40

I wouldn't call them the CarFax and someone's like they're called the cart back Ian's aggressive correction. The purpose is

Lilly 50:53

to show how sheltered Dane she's so unknowing of the world around her she needs someone to take her under his wing you saw every level for everyone.

Hannah 51:19

It only makes jokes better. Would you explain them in detail?

Lilly 51:24

Yeah, I can't believe you liked the circle of magic better, Sarah. That's the incorrect answer.

Sara 51:29

I just I really, I don't know what it was I liked specifically it was the sequels where the guy goes to like the desert country and they have like, they're like, everything is built into the cliffs. And he finds the girl with the, like the rock magic. That was that was the one that I really liked. That was the book that I really liked.

Hannah 51:55

You guys have such good memories about childhood books, where I just remember the vibes they gave me

Laura 52:02

when you say rock magic? Like what do you mean?

Sara 52:07

I think that she could like literally manipulate rocks. Like in the circle of magic. All of the main characters had different ways of manipulating like objects and their with their magic. And like I think one was a thread mage or something and she

Lilly 52:23

would like weave things and yes, would control spells. Yeah.

Sara 52:27

And it's just I found I found that magic system more interesting than the magic in toradol.

Hannah 52:33

You mean you didn't like top three magic sitting inside people and just waiting the spill out to thread like,

Sara 52:40

I mean, that's pretty great, too. But like, that's, that's why that's why I think I I went for the circle of magic more than the immortal series. I mean, don't get me wrong, like I loved. I love the mortal series, too. It's just if I was ranking them.

Lilly 52:57

Yeah. That's okay. You're allowed to have you repeating.

Sara 53:01

It can be wrong. Like this whole podcast is predicated on us disagreeing with each other. I

Lilly 53:11

feel like we usually end I feel like I know, we usually end our book conversations with who should read this book? And the answer is nine year old girls.

Hannah 53:20

Yes. With some very specific explanations on what adult relationships should look like with

Lilly 53:29

nine year old girls under supervision.

Sara 53:33

I just realized that it wasn't the the Calibri books. I read a lot of the Calibri books. I think I said that I had stopped halfway through. And that's not true. It was the ones it might have been a lot of stutter. It was the editor's choice. Yeah, those were the those were the two that I stopped after.