Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett
- Fiction Fans
- Mar 27, 2024
- 31 min read
Episode 133
Release Date: March 27, 2024
Your hosts continue their journey to center of the Discworld with Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett. They discuss performative gender, unexpected allies, and supportive camraderie. They also talk about a character's near miss with fatphobia, underexplored backstories, and overexplored hair. This episode contains a hat-centric words are weird.
See the list of works that Nevena has translated into Serbian: https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/6456299.Nevena_Andri_
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.
Sara: 0:09
And I'm Sarah, and I am so excited that we are joined by Navina Andrick to talk about translations today.
Lilly: 0:11
And tonight we will be discussing Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett. Another step on our journey to the center of the Discworld, which I did forget to obnoxiously bring up for their last couple of books, but
Sara: 0:23
Oh no, what a horror.
Lilly: 0:26
I know you missed it, but we are still on that journey. Before we get there though, what is something great that happened recently?
Sara: 0:33
Something great that happened recently is Gardener's World is back on. So,
Lilly: 0:38
So you're getting a lot of knitting done?
Sara: 0:40
well, I'm getting a lot of knitting done anyway, because I'm watching classic Doctor Who while I knit, but I can watch new episodes of Gardener's World each week because it's a weekly thing, and I'm getting it in dribbles. But still, I'm pleased.
Lilly: 0:55
Wonderful.
Sara: 0:56
What's your good thing?
Lilly: 0:57
My good thing is that it's asparagus season, which means it's very cheap at the grocery store right now. Small victories. I love asparagus so much.
Sara: 1:06
Asparagus is wonderful. I would like to grow asparagus, but I have not successfully grown asparagus yet.
Lilly: 1:12
Mmm. We planted some last year, but it takes a couple years Well, from like root stock. And it takes a couple of years. So we had it, like it sprouted, but it was teeny teeny tiny. Not food size
Sara: 1:24
Yeah, you, you can't actually, you're not supposed to harvest it for like three or four years.
Lilly: 1:29
So, fingers crossed. what are we drinking this evening?
Sara: 1:34
I am drinking red wine. Don't ask me what kind because I didn't bother to read the label on the bottle.
Lilly: 1:40
Well, I'm drinking white wine. It is Pinot Grigio. And it is box shaped.
Sara: 1:45
Delightful.
Lilly: 1:46
It is, it's, it's quite good actually. I like it. And it was sunny this weekend, so white wine was on the menu. Well, have we read anything good lately? I have. And you probably have. I don't know if you have an answer that's different from
Sara: 2:01
I do actually have an answer that's different from yours.
Lilly: 2:04
I'll let you go first then.
Sara: 2:06
I have been reading Ashes of the Ancestors by Andrew Knighton, which is, again, a Subjective Chaos nominated novella. So that's why I'm reading it. But I'm glad to be reading it.
Lilly: 2:18
I mean, I feel like you've had pretty good luck with the subjective chaos nominations.
Sara: 2:23
That's because everyone nominates pretty good books. I
Lilly: 2:27
that seems reasonable,
Sara: 2:28
have, my fellow judges have good taste.
Lilly: 2:32
Well, I have been doing some reading lately as well. That is technically not for the podcast.
Sara: 2:40
Only in the merest of technicalities, by the merest of technicalities.
Lilly: 2:45
My reading is not for the Fiction Fans podcast. It has been for Solstitia, the Fiction Fans literary magazine. I'm sorry, it's not a zine. We're just calling it zine, not litmag, right?
Sara: 2:56
I mean, we are calling it a zine, but you can also call it a litmag if you would like.
Lilly: 3:02
just in my brain, I can't get it out. But yes, I've been reading submissions for that. We accepted them in February, and now it's time to read! Read all of them!
Sara: 3:12
There's kind of a lot. There's more than I was expecting we would be getting, which is both good and bad.
Lilly: 3:18
Honestly, I've been thoroughly enjoying it. There's one that we both loved that technically doesn't follow our guideline submissions, and I'm heartbroken.
Sara: 3:27
Yeah, that one's a bummer, but it was great.
Lilly: 3:29
we have rules, and we're gonna stick to them. Gosh darn it.
Sara: 3:33
Probably stick to them.
Lilly: 3:34
At least in this case we are. But it's been a lot of fun. I mean, short fiction, right? No one's submitting novels to us. Although some of them are frickin long short stories.
Sara: 3:43
There was one that I thought was, like, 70, 000 words.
Lilly: 3:47
I have not gotten to that one yet.
Sara: 3:48
Maybe it was only 70 pages, and a lesser number of words. But it was, like, 70 pages.
Lilly: 3:54
Yeah, still technically short fiction though.
Sara: 3:57
It was quite long, though.
Lilly: 3:58
But my point is that I've been reading more short fiction lately because of it, which is great.
Sara: 4:04
Yes.
Lilly: 4:06
So that is what I've been doing when I haven't been reading Monstrous Regiment. Although we also have another announcement to share before we jump into the actual interesting part of this episode. We are doing a Patreon drive! If you listen to our episodes all the way through to the very end, when we talk about things that aren't book related, then you'll know that we do have a Patreon. We've had it up for over a year now, I think. Gosh, I should know that.
Sara: 4:32
It's been a while.
Lilly: 4:34
But it was sort of a soft launch at the beginning, and now we are officially, I would say as of 2024, we officially have like a content schedule and plan.
Sara: 4:47
I mean, I think now we actually know what kind of things we want to put on our Patreon instead of just doing whatever we had at hand.
Lilly: 4:57
Although there is quite a bit of that as well.
Sara: 4:59
Well, okay, there's a little bit of that still.
Lilly: 5:02
Yeah. Anyway, so the day that this episode comes out, is going to be kicking off a Patreon subscription drive. Anyone who signs up for our Patreon will get some extra bonus stuff along the lines of maybe some stickers and a custom limerick just as a thank you for anyone who is at the end of this subscription drive signed up. So we're also going to be offering those things to our existing Patreons, because they've stuck around with us for a long time.
Sara: 5:32
And we appreciate all of them. And our goal for this drive is basically to get enough patrons to cover our base costs. Like, we're not trying to reach for the moon or anything, but it would be nice to at least have more of our monthly expenditures covered.
Lilly: 5:50
Yes, and that's a pretty reasonable goal, I'd say. We only need 10 new 5 patrons, and our monthly expenses, the, the admin expenses, the recording software, and the website hosting, and all of that kind of stuff will be covered. So that would be awesome. I think we're always gonna be buying books. I think we would be whether or not we had a podcast, so I'm just okay with that.
Sara: 6:14
Yeah, same.
Lilly: 6:17
But a book I did not have to buy was Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett, because I already owned it and have read it many a time.
Sara: 6:26
I didn't have to buy it either, but I did borrow it from the library as an e book, even though I own the physical copy, because I just, I've been on an e book reading kick lately.
Lilly: 6:37
I also read it as an e book, although, that's because, this book has been sitting on my bedside table for almost a full calendar year now. Because I pulled it out when I went to go see the play last, I guess it was last May, so not a full year, but a really long fucking time. And it's been on my bedside table since then, except apparently I cleaned the house sometime recently and it's not there anymore.
Sara: 7:06
Oh no!
Lilly: 7:07
no idea where I put it, which is ironic, because I've known exactly where it was until I needed it. But I bought the bundle of Pratchett Discworld's e books a while ago, so I was like, ha ha, e book time.
Sara: 7:22
Convenient.
Lilly: 7:23
Yeah, very, because I did spend an afternoon like, Where is it? What have I done? And then it was fine. I mean, I still don't know where it is, but I read it.
Sara: 7:33
Which is really all that matters when it comes to this podcast anyway.
Lilly: 7:37
This, well, okay, I can't say that this is my favorite Discworld novel, because I do love Going Postal. But this is like, ooh, very close.
Sara: 7:49
I don't know if I would call this my number one because I love Nightwatch and I love small gods, but this is definitely in the, like, top five, possibly top three.
Lilly: 8:00
I do love Small Gods. I feel like I used to say that Small Gods was one of I mean, it's definitely still in my top five or three or whatever. So I'm kind of just splitting hairs. But I think Monstrous Regiment has edged out over Small Gods at least. I'll be really interested to see what I think reading Going Postal.
Sara: 8:20
We're almost there.
Lilly: 8:22
I'm, I know I'm excited. But I, like, Monstrous Regiment didn't stress me out in the way that Small Gods does, just because the subject matter is different.
Sara: 8:34
That's true. You, are you talking about the fact that it's not about religion or just the fact that there's, I think, more Immediate stressful situations that brother goes through in Small Gods.
Lilly: 8:48
I'm talking about thematically. Monstrous Regiment is more about the gender dynamics and how absurd they are and completely constructed and everything, and less about,
Sara: 9:00
Religion.
Lilly: 9:01
religious conflict. Maybe I'm just a sucker for girl dresses up as boy to join the army.
Sara: 9:07
Well, if so, this is indeed the right book for you because there's an awful lot of that in this book.
Lilly: 9:15
Yes! That's the the main plot of this book. Of course, Polly has to Well, she doesn't have to join the army, but she does so because she wants to go find her brother who had joined the army, I think, a couple years previous and then just disappeared.
Sara: 9:30
I think it was just last year.
Lilly: 9:31
Was it just one year? Okay.
Sara: 9:33
Yeah, I think it was the previous year. And then she stops hearing from him, and she's concerned about him and wants to find out what happened to him. So, clearly, the only solution is to join the army herself.
Lilly: 9:46
Well, it is because the country that they live in, she can't, like, travel alone as a young woman. It's not really allowed.
Sara: 9:53
Yeah, and not just in the sense that, oh, you know, it's dangerous to travel by yourself, but Borogravia has some very, very strict, wacko religion that prohibits basically everything.
Lilly: 10:09
It prohibits everything, but the people decide to ignore the inconvenient ones and enforce the ones they want to, which It's not touched upon a lot, but I quite enjoyed the hypocrisy of that. Heh heh
Sara: 10:22
It's, it's touched on a little bit.
Lilly: 10:24
Eating cherries and women wearing pants are both punishable by death, but guess which one is actually enforced? Heh heh heh. Borogravia's also been at war, basically, for forever, although this is a relatively new this specific war is new, but they are a warmongering country.
Sara: 10:41
Yeah, Borogravia has a habit of going to war with its neighbors.
Lilly: 10:45
Which is, I mean, you're gonna be very surprised to hear this. Disliked by Pratchett. Heh heh heh. Maybe disliked is not the right word. He created it. But like,
Sara: 10:55
Criticized?
Lilly: 10:56
as an example of a bad thing. Yeah.
Sara: 11:00
But it's really interesting the way that, so, this whole book, or most of this book, is told from the perspective of people who, live in Borogravia and are more or less supportive of their country. They're not patriotic to the point of nationalism, but because of how isolated they are, they don't necessarily recognize how warmongering their leadership is. And so it's interesting to see their perspective on What's going on, and like, see how, how defensive they get about their country when some of the less sympathetic stuff is pointed out.
Lilly: 11:48
It's true. It also talks about, like, how the, the leadership of a country and the people of a country are different. Like, those are different entities. And I think that is one of the big sort of themes of this book. Well, maybe, maybe not. Maybe that's just one of the consequences of this book because of how it's talking about other stuff.
Sara: 12:07
Yeah, I wouldn't say it was a theme necessarily, because I don't think it's a focus, but I do think that it comes about as a consequence of everything else that the book covers. Yeah.
Lilly: 12:17
It's a necessity of this book.
Sara: 12:19
Yeah.
Lilly: 12:21
Oh, man. So, Polly is fantastic. I love her so much. Or Oliver. Or Ozzie. Depending on win in this book you were talking about.
Sara: 12:30
Yeah, Polly's great.
Lilly: 12:32
I also love her relationship with the other soldiers. So, she is part of the very last enlistment, because Borogravia has literally run out of people to throw at this war. Like, everyone who's left is old or a woman, basically.
Sara: 12:49
And they're losing quite badly, but of course no one wants to admit that.
Lilly: 12:53
So we have this little ragtag group of misfits. It's the last, like, how many are there? Maybe five? Seven? I didn't count.
Sara: 13:01
There's Carborundum, Maledict, Wazzers and Wazzy and Tonkers, and Shoofty, and Igor, and Polly.
Lilly: 13:13
So, Tonkers also had their counterpart.
Sara: 13:16
Oh, uh, Tonker and Lofty.
Lilly: 13:18
Yeah, but Wazzer is one of the characters.
Sara: 13:21
Yes, Wazzers, I was thinking that it, that I was getting them mixed up, but yes, Wazzers is a separate person. So that's eight in total in their regiment.
Lilly: 13:31
Okay, I was close. So, I would say scraping the bottom of the barrel, but they're all fantastic, so that's not true. But as far as the army, like, leadership is concerned, they are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Sara: 13:47
Yes.
Lilly: 13:48
And the immediate hilarity is that they are not being super choosy about who they're letting in. Letting in who they assume is a very young boy, because Polly's voice is high and she does not need to shave. But then, also, Carborundum is a troll, Maledict is a vampire, and Igor is an Igor, obviously. It's in the name. And there's a lot of, I mean, obviously, right, they're the monstrous regiment. There's, there are hijinks and, you know, Not a lot of racism. I mean, some from outside of the troupe. People being rude to Igor and maledict. I guess people are always uncomfortable around Igor.
Sara: 14:26
Yeah, but you're right that all of the racism we see is outside of that little band. I mean, there's one character who is a corporal. Strappy, who is terribly racist and a bully and who is irrelevant to most of the story but is there at the beginning when everyone is signing up. And he makes snide comments and is basically terrible. But that's the, that's really the worst of it, I think.
Lilly: 14:56
Yeah, so the book kind of sets up like, oh, it's the ragtag group of misfits facing adversity for their country. But I like how that all, I don't know, they, the relationships that they build together, I really liked. And then of course, Polly is badass.
Sara: 15:13
Yeah, I think part of that relationship building comes from something that is a spoiler. that they discover, and that brings them together, knits them together in a way that might not have been the case otherwise. Yes, they have a good relationship prior to that, but I think that kind of deepens everything and makes them relax a little into trusting each other. Right.
Lilly: 15:37
I brought up the different species thing, because while racism does get brought up in this book, it's not the focus. The gender dynamics are definitely the focus, and like, girls can't join the army, and all sorts of things like that. So like, while the story doesn't ignore the existence of racism, it's also like, that is not the focus of this plot. So, we've been talking a lot about Borogravia, and we're gonna continue to do so, and all of these new characters who are introduced in this book and we never see again. Do we? We never see them, right? I don't think we do.
Sara: 16:12
I don't think so, no. Monstrous Regimen is basically a standalone. I would say functionally a standalone.
Lilly: 16:18
It is. Oh, yeah. Who would argue against that? Are you saying because Sam Vimes is in this book, it's technically part of the City Watch series?
Sara: 16:28
No, I'm pretty sure that it is counted as a standalone. Even on Wikipedia, we do see Vimes for a hot second. I was more referring to the fact that it's book, like, 31 in the series.
Lilly: 16:41
Oh, yeah, that's fine.
Sara: 16:42
But one thing that I liked about seeing Vimes in this was I thought it was both weird and fun to have an outside perspective on him, especially from people who get all of the propaganda about Vimes and especially anti Ankh Morpork propaganda. So like they call him the butcher and they have this picture in his head that of course, If you've read any of the Vimes books, you know is completely counter to Vimes character, but if you're new to the series or haven't read anything that contains him, like, you don't necessarily get that.
Lilly: 17:25
I thought it was especially fun reading this book after The Fifth Elephant? I hate that name for that book, because it has nothing to do with what's going on. Is that the one where Vimes goes toÜberwald?
Sara: 17:39
Yes.
Lilly: 17:40
Okay, yeah. And he, like, is kind of stretching his diplomatic legs, but that book is clearly focused on Vimes transplanted into this other country, trying to deal with their bullshit and nonsense. Which is the same thing that's happening in this book, but it's focused, like, 99 percent on Vimes. Borogrovia and Zlobenia, which is like, you could be more transparent, but I'm not sure how.
Sara: 18:08
Something else that I thought is fun is the way that we've seen more and more mentions of the Klax in the books leading up to this, because of course Klax is like the main focus of Going Postal, and I didn't realize before this reread, not specifically of Monstrous Regiment in particular, but Like basically all of the Discworld books in general. I didn't realize how much of the Grand Trunk we saw before that book.
Lilly: 18:39
Yeah. I mean, I, I'm so excited to reread Golden Postal.
Sara: 18:45
I also like that, uh, William DeWard has an email address.
Lilly: 18:50
I saw that! I was wondering if e mail, I'm sure e mail stands for
Sara: 18:56
I don't think that we've ever gotten a an explanation for it before. Like, I don't think it's been brought up in any of the books yet, and I'm not sure if it ever is again, to be perfectly honest. It should have been.
Lilly: 19:13
That's true, because this book brings in, I mean, William DeWard shows up from the truth when he invents the newspaper. And the newspaper also plays a decent role in this story. It's not the main focus, but,
Sara: 19:27
Yeah, I mean, William DeWard kind of gets, he becomes more and more a major side character, if that makes sense. And I think we really see that in this book.
Lilly: 19:37
yeah, absolutely. And he's, he has influence on the plot, too. It's not like death who gets a cameo in every story, right? Like, William DeWard, at least in this case, has actually, like, had an impact on the outcome of these events.
Sara: 19:52
Yeah, I mean, and I think that makes sense, given Pratchett's experience as a journalist. Like, absolutely, newspaper articles can impact perception of events, or even, like, the course of events.
Lilly: 20:06
Well, and people's perception of events will impact the course of them, so
Sara: 20:09
Yes.
Lilly: 20:11
big circle. Anyway, um, We have to get to the spoiler section. I know we don't always do a spoiler section for Discworld novels because it doesn't always matter, but in this book it does. So, when should you read this book? I'm actually gonna walk that back to who should read this book. This is a book that I think completely stands alone. You don't have to be into Discworld at all. I think you would get some of the flavor of, like, what the clacks are and who Sam Vimes is. But you don't need that to understand what's happening, and the story is so good.
Sara: 20:45
Yeah, I mean, it absolutely, I think, could be an entry point into Discworld. Discworld. And you don't need to be familiar with the series to read it.
Lilly: 20:54
I'm not even saying entry point. If you're not interested in Discworld at all, still consider reading this book, though.
Sara: 21:01
Okay, I mean, but if you don't like the kind of humorous fantasy that Pratchett writes, you're probably still not going to like this.
Lilly: 21:09
Oh yeah, sure. But
Sara: 21:11
It is excellent if you want gender, like, hijinks and exploration.
Lilly: 21:17
Turns out, the difference between a man and a woman is a pair of socks stuffed down the front of your underpants. Now we know. Void spoilers, skip to 44. 05. We say, can we say the fun thing that happens in this book now?
Sara: 21:42
Yes, I think it's time.
Lilly: 21:45
It's not just Polly! Now we do find out about the rest of her troupe pretty early on, as you were saying. Uh, like, in the first quarter of the
Sara: 21:54
Yeah, I, my memory was that it happened later on. I thought that that tension lingered for a long time, but I was really surprised when everyone comes together and basically admits to each other that they're all girls. Which Polly has been realizing throughout the beginning of the book, but this moment where they basically, again, like admit it to each other, is only at 27 percent of the way through. So it happens much, much earlier than I was expecting.
Lilly: 22:24
And that's the like bonding moment, but even then Polly is discovering her companions Their truths like sort of one at a time. Oh, it's just like very well done well, they're all amazing, but one of my favorite moments is Not when Polly discovers that Lufty? Is that her name?
Sara: 22:46
Shook dee, I think?
Lilly: 22:48
No, the the girlfriend
Sara: 22:49
Oh, loft dee, I believe.
Lilly: 22:53
Something like that. Polly discovers that Lofty is a girl. And Lofty has always been, you know, sitting way too close and, like, sticking by Tonkers. And Polly is like, Oh, she followed her boyfriend into war, that's so cute. And then Later on, when there's the reveal that they're all girls, and Polly is like, wait, but Tonkers can't be a girl, because she's Lofty's boyfriend.
Sara: 23:24
Although, that does actually bring me to my one very minor complaint about this book, which is that the three of them, Wazzers, Lofty, and Tonkers, come from this really horrible girls school, uh,
Lilly: 23:41
The reform school.
Sara: 23:43
reform school, in Polly's town, and, uh, We get a little bit about how terrible it is, and it's basically driven Wazers a little mad. But there's not, I don't think there's enough exploration of that, just because of how terrible it is. Does that make sense?
Lilly: 24:03
I mean, they say that, like, Lofty comes back pregnant after one of her assignments. Like, the book says that they're a sexual assault.
Sara: 24:12
Yeah.
Lilly: 24:13
I, I agree that the book doesn't go into it. As much as it maybe should, but because I think we see Tonker's and Lofty's reactions to it, and Polly's reactions to their reactions being, Oh yeah, that's 100 percent justified. That's like a very subtle kind of subtextual way of going, Yeah, that sucks.
Sara: 24:36
I, yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not that it's not addressed at all, but it's The descriptions that we do get of it are so terrible that I would expect a little bit more exploration of it, rather than, like it's, it's a little bit set dressing.
Lilly: 24:54
Yeah, I see that.
Sara: 24:56
And I, I think that it deserved a little more than that.
Lilly: 25:00
Or it could have been a little less terrible.
Sara: 25:02
Or it could have been a little less terrible, yeah.
Lilly: 25:06
Oh, Wazzer is Joan of Arc though, that's fun.
Sara: 25:09
That is fun. She doesn't die at the end.
Lilly: 25:13
I did like how Polly at the end says something along the lines of, I've realized that I'm not the main character and I'm just a chara like, a character in Wazir's story. She's the one everyone's gonna remember.
Sara: 25:24
I liked that too. And it made me wonder how, what the Discworld version of Wazzer's story would look like. Obviously we're never going to get it, but I would have loved to like have that comparison.
Lilly: 25:38
Kind of like how there's a, Are you my cow? No. Where's my cow?
Sara: 25:43
Where's my cow?
Lilly: 25:45
That kid's book.
Sara: 25:46
Yeah.
Lilly: 25:47
But yeah, but the propaganda article version of Wazir's story.
Sara: 25:51
I mean, not even the propaganda version, but the story Monstrous Regiment told from Wazzer's point of view.
Lilly: 25:57
Mmm, I guess I don't think someone needs to write a whole ass novel for that, uh, to scratch that itch.
Sara: 26:04
short story version.
Lilly: 26:06
Yeah, a short story version, maybe.
Sara: 26:08
Someone must have written that fanfiction.
Lilly: 26:10
Because again, the religious fervor is gonna get old real fast.
Sara: 26:14
True. That's probably why it's not told from Wazir's perspective.
Lilly: 26:19
so the reveal that This troupe of misfits is entirely girls pretending to be boys. Even Carborundum, the troll, even Igarina. I fucking love Igarina.
Sara: 26:35
And even Maledict, although the Maledict reveal happens at the end of the
Lilly: 26:40
Yeah, I was gonna say, it's not like a bonding moment. Maledict stays out of it, but is chill, so everyone's like, Okay, that's fine then.
Sara: 26:49
I mean, everyone is like, well, Maledict's a vampire, could go either way.
Lilly: 26:54
Yeah. And even at the end, When Maledicta reveals that her name is Maledicta, she does say something along the lines of, I mean, it doesn't really matter with vampires, but bustiers suck. Let's see, who's not a girl in this book?
Sara: 27:10
Strappy.
Lilly: 27:11
Who is? They're like, God, do I gotta learn army names, words, titles? Titles.
Sara: 27:19
he's a corporal.
Lilly: 27:20
for. Yeah, I know, but what the fuck is that?
Sara: 27:23
He's an army person. Who's over them because they're all privates or grunts.
Lilly: 27:29
He's like the hall monitor of the army, and then Sergeant Jack Rum is like the vice principal, and then Lieutenant Blouse is like the principal.
Sara: 27:40
Yes.
Lilly: 27:41
Yeah. And then like, apparently a captain is higher than that, except on a boat. No, I guess on a boat a captain would also be higher. But an admiral is higher than a captain, but that's only in the water. I hate military words so much.
Sara: 28:00
Water ranks are not relevant to this conversation.
Lilly: 28:05
There's a captain, though.
Sara: 28:06
But captains
Lilly: 28:07
How do I know there's not a boat involved?
Sara: 28:09
are found in The Land Army, too.
Lilly: 28:12
Yeah, I know, and I hate it. It's confusing is my point. Do captains hold the same level of responsibility on both the land and the sea? I doubt it. It sounded like a captain in the sea would be like a lieutenant on the land, but I don't know. I do not know.
Sara: 28:31
I don't know, but I also don't really need to know. I just, I know where everyone is in relation to the other characters, and that's enough for me.
Lilly: 28:39
I mean, eventually. There were a lot of army words in this book. And I got to the point where I was like, I am so annoyed that I feel like I should just learn these hierarchies. But I'm annoyed that I have to, and have absolutely no interest in doing so.
Sara: 28:56
I didn't think it was that bad. I mean, yeah, there are titles given, but you generally know who everyone is and where they fall.
Lilly: 29:04
It's not that bad in this book. I just, like, this is something that has been simmering within me for a while. And so when I got to all of the titles in this book, I was like, goddammit, you too, Pratchett! You too! Anyway, that was a tangent, because actually, I was going to say, I really liked Lieutenant Blouse. Who is the only man, because we find out at the very, very, very end of the book that Jakarum is also a woman.
Sara: 29:34
was an excellent reveal. I loved that reveal.
Lilly: 29:37
So, let's see, what is, what is the cadence here? Polly, obviously, we know is a girl from the start, she's the main character. We find out some of her troupe, and I'm sure troupe isn't the right word either. Band? Team?
Sara: 29:50
Regiment?
Lilly: 29:52
Oh yeah, regiment. It's in the title of the
Sara: 29:54
It's there in the title.
Lilly: 29:55
Yeah? Alright. One by one, she finds out that some of the people in her regiment are also women. And then we find out that, oh yeah, and then at the end, when they get in trouble, Jackram shows up and is like, Well, you're the head of the army and you're a woman too!
Sara: 30:11
Yeah, we, we find out, Jakrim reveals at their hearing, their military hearing, that about half of the people in there, the higher ups in the army, are all women.
Lilly: 30:23
Who have been pretending to be men for decades.
Sara: 30:26
Yeah.
Lilly: 30:27
So yeah, the army has totally been participated in by women? That's not,
Sara: 30:33
Invaded by.
Lilly: 30:34
I was trying to avoid that connotation. It makes it deeply ironic, all of the people saying like, Oh, women can't do that. You can't do that because you're a woman at the beginning of the book. Because then like, well, well.
Sara: 30:49
I think that's part of Pratchett's point, is that these women who are at the head of the army become so entrenched in their roles and their positions, and in the power that they hold as men, that they in turn start gatekeeping. Yeah.
Lilly: 31:10
a whole point about trailblazers, even in, you know, modern day feminism, who do attain a certain level of femininity. A new level of responsibility or, or whatever, a, a role that is not typically held by women. And then they're not always supportive after the fact. Datekeeping, as you said. The phrase that came to my mind was that, well, if I went through hell, you have to, too. But I think that's a little bit more conscious then. the women in this book were. There was a line, women are so good at what they do, they were better at being men than the men were. Which I thought was great. I mean, terrible, but great.
Sara: 31:55
Yes.
Lilly: 31:56
I just, I did kind of want to shake them. Like, the point of being a trailblazer is that when you blaze the trail, you make it easier for the people following you. That's the whole fucking word. But they're not going to listen to me because I am not in the book. So yeah, we find out everyone was a woman. Not everyone, but like, practically everyone.
Sara: 32:17
Many of the named characters are women.
Lilly: 32:20
Yeah.
Sara: 32:21
At least on the Borogravian side.
Lilly: 32:24
Jackram, I think, is the final reveal, right?
Sara: 32:26
Yeah, Jackrim is the final reveal.
Lilly: 32:29
Because, I'm going to start, I'm going to continue saying he because he chooses to remain living as a man. Hugh.
Sara: 32:37
Yeah.
Lilly: 32:39
reveals all of those leaderships. He does not out them, I should say. He asks a bunch of people to leave the room during the trial so that it's only the people he knows are women.
Sara: 32:50
he he outs them to the other women.
Lilly: 32:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He does out them a little
Sara: 32:54
Yeah, he doesn't out them to the world at large, but
Lilly: 32:58
No, he does not out them to the men
Sara: 33:01
Yeah.
Lilly: 33:02
in the army.
Sara: 33:04
But all of or many of these women thought that they were unique in being women in the army, and he does. You know, reveal that no, that's not actually the case.
Lilly: 33:15
Sergeant Jackram was a fascinating character. So we find out that he knew that his regiment were girls at about maybe three quarters through the book, maybe a little earlier, and he has just been a great supportive sergeant.
Sara: 33:29
the one who gives Polly the tip about socks.
Lilly: 33:32
Yes. Which we find out at that point.
Sara: 33:34
Yeah.
Lilly: 33:35
It was a mystery. But then the lieutenant, Lieutenant Blouse, is also incredible, but in a very different way. Sergeant Jackram is like a career military man, woman, meh. At the end of the book, Jackram had a child who was raised by His grandmother. Her grandmother. And at the end, Polly convinces Jackram to return to his son and son's family. Not as a mother, but as a father? And Jackram loves, or doesn't love that idea. Clearly does though, because he ends up doing it, and appears to be very happy at the end. And so I think that choice, I don't know. Pronouns are hard for this book, because they are all women. But also many of them, Prefer male pronouns, it seems. But do they prefer them, or do they just prefer living in the world as a man because of the perks? I don't know.
Sara: 34:28
Yeah, it's a little bit of a gray area, I think.
Lilly: 34:32
So, I'm just trying to justify continuing to refer to Jackram as he. But I think it's fair.
Sara: 34:38
I mean, yeah, I think it's totally fair. Jackram continues living as a man.
Lilly: 34:42
And not just for his career, right? Because he could have retired and then gone and been a woman somewhere. But instead chooses to, like, truly adopt this identity. Transition into this identity, if you will. I've distracted myself from how great Lieutenant Blouse is. Who is a man, but, uh, like a very nerdy, lame guy. And he's like a pencil pusher who really should not be in the field. But he ends up, like, being a great not mathematician. Whoa. I can't speak today, which is bad for I mean, he is a good mathematician, but that wasn't what I meant.
Sara: 35:20
We get the sense that he's actually a very incredible, like, software engineer. Because he has all of these thoughts about the clacks.
Lilly: 35:28
Statistician isn't the worst.
Sara: 35:30
that's
Lilly: 35:33
Strateg strategist Oh no. But I also wanted to say he's good at war stuff, not just nerdy stuff,
Sara: 35:42
feel like he's He is good at war stuff, but I think it's mostly because he's read a lot of books, it's not because he has inherent abilities. I think that he's 50 percent lucky, too.
Lilly: 35:57
but just because you have book learning doesn't mean you're good at applying that to real world scenarios, which he is. And so that I think deserves praise. He's also, as you said, lucky
Sara: 36:12
Yeah, I, like, I, I think that he gets away with a lot because he's very lucky, and because he also has competent people working for him, or working under him.
Lilly: 36:22
I guess I'm thinking of the bit of espionage he does when he uses the portable Klax machine to tell the enemy that, Oh yeah, we found those guys. They're way over there.
Sara: 36:37
That, that was all him. That's true.
Lilly: 36:39
That's all
Sara: 36:40
I'm thinking his plan to get into the keep.
Lilly: 36:43
Oh yeah, yeah, he's, he's not a great field. Like, he should not be the one in the field. Heh
Sara: 36:50
and, and that's, that's also strategy though. I mean, it works out for him, but it's not. Right.
Lilly: 37:01
and it was hilarious.
Sara: 37:03
It worked, it worked out for him, but it was not necessarily great military tactics.
Lilly: 37:09
I guess. He had confidence in his acting ability, and it turned out he was right.
Sara: 37:14
I, I did like, I mean, it's, it's a great scene, or a great set of scenes, don't get me wrong.
Lilly: 37:19
But he also has good strategy in other places that does end up, like, espionage and stuff like that, and reading the room. He's better at than his, like, really doofy introduction would suggest.
Sara: 37:31
Yes. He, I think my view on him is he is unexpectedly competent.
Lilly: 37:36
Yes. But that was nice.
Sara: 37:38
Yeah, it is nice.
Lilly: 37:40
And it's kind of the same as Sergeant Jackram, although he's not unexpectedly competent. But he's introduced as, like, you know, the drill sergeant. He's shouting at people and whipping them into shape or whatever. And his first introduction is, I would say, very cringey. Like, his description is, like, rough.
Sara: 38:01
Yeah, I mean, so, Jackram is obese, and his initial description is, I would say, kind of fatphobic, actually. Yeah.
Lilly: 38:11
Well, the description is unflattering. I would argue that it would be fatphobic if his character remained that two dimensional.
Sara: 38:19
Right. Okay. Fair. I, like, I'm not saying that Pratchett is being fatphobic with Jackram, but that initial description, like, you think that it's
Lilly: 38:28
You think it's going
Sara: 38:29
Yeah, you think it's going there. Like, it's, it's not a great introduction. And then we get descriptions later on where I'm like, okay, these are still not great descriptions, but like, you are recognizing that, you know, fat people can be quiet when they walk and fat people are athletic and things like that. So I'm going to give you more of a pass.
Lilly: 38:50
Well, I also think it's the balance that, yeah, Sergeant Drachrum is not a beautiful man, nor is she a beautiful woman, but she's a person beyond her appearance. He's not attractive, but he has so much value and is such a good person and, like, really takes care of his regiment.
Sara: 39:10
I think that Jackram becomes more than a caricature. Yeah.
Lilly: 39:15
And so it's, like, yeah, he is never described as, Oh, he's actually beautiful because of how nice he is. Like, no, he's not an attractive man, but that's okay because That's, it's not all about appearances. He is also a fully rounded person, which now feels like a pun and it was not supposed to be. So the, the description at the beginning that is very unflattering is now like, well, yeah, all of those things are true, but it doesn't matter.
Sara: 39:47
Well, I, I disagree with you a little bit in the sense that I think you can describe all of Jackram's characteristics in a neutral way rather than a negative way.
Lilly: 40:00
Yeah, piggy eyes is never good.
Sara: 40:02
Yeah, and, and like grossly obese. Or, or grossly fat or whatever the, the phrase that Pratchett uses. Like the language that he uses is really negative in a way that's uncomfortable.
Lilly: 40:15
I agree. I mean, I had the same reaction, so obviously I agree. But. I think some of that is because it's from, I mean, it's not from Polly's perspective, but she is the main character and we are kind of following her through this. And Jackram's introduction is unpleasant beyond just his appearance. He doesn't seem like a good guy right away. And so I think, The descriptions of him all around start off very negative and become more positive as Polly learns who he is.
Sara: 40:50
that's fair. I think part of my feelings about his introduction is that Pratchett's not always been the best with fat characters.
Lilly: 40:58
Oh yeah, so we assumed the worst,
Sara: 41:00
Yeah. Yeah.
Lilly: 41:04
But I'm trying to separate, like, our baggage coming to this book versus the book. Like, just within this book, what is happening, you know?
Sara: 41:12
I do think that some of the language is more negative than his introduction still, but I think that you have a point that his introduction as a whole is not flattering beyond his physical appearance, like the language that Pratchett uses to describe him.
Lilly: 41:29
Well, in terms of being a character who is fat, but also Very physically competent. I guess unexpectedly competent is still the right phrase for him, just in a different way.
Sara: 41:40
And that's why I kind of give Pratchett a little bit of a pass here, because he does recognize that fat people can do things too, right? With Jackram, but.
Lilly: 41:51
Do you think he was trying to play off of that expectation?
Sara: 41:54
I think he probably was, but I don't think he did it well.
Lilly: 41:58
When was this book written? When did it come out?
Sara: 42:01
2003.
Lilly: 42:03
Yeah, I feel like that was This is one of those things that was probably revolutionary at the time. Heh heh. Hey, so, what the fuck was up with Polly keeping her hair?
Sara: 42:15
I mean, I guess she was just attached to it? Not physically, emotionally.
Lilly: 42:21
yeah. That was fine. Like, I accepted that. But then she got all upset that it was stolen. Not because I stole it. that's violating, but because she was like, Oh no, now someone's gonna be able to prove that I'm a girl because they found a bunch of hair in my backpack and they wouldn't jump to the fact that I'm a huge creep instead. Which is what I would assume if I found a bunch of hair in some dude's backpack.
Sara: 42:50
I mean, I, I did like the suggestion from, and I forget who it was, possibly Maledict, that she just say, you know, it was a memento of her lover back home.
Lilly: 43:04
Just an entire head of hair, yeah.
Sara: 43:06
Yeah.
Lilly: 43:07
Like, I'm fine with that. That, I just feel like the book gave it too much time, because it ended up being a whole nothing burger.
Sara: 43:17
I feel like it was intended to increase tension, but the tension didn't actually go anywhere. Because, like, the hair gets stolen, but it does end up being a nothing burger.
Lilly: 43:29
Yeah, and it's just like not, I don't know, it did, it did nothing for me and the book spent so much, not that much time on it, but relatively so much time.
Sara: 43:40
Would you have been more okay with it if it had led to a confrontation between her and Strappy?
Lilly: 43:48
Yes! 100%
Sara: 43:52
So the book just didn't have enough follow through.
Lilly: 43:55
Yeah, it's like, it felt like Chekhov's gun, just sitting there on the mantel, full of hair, doing nothing. So I did have to look up a word from this book, which makes it a words are weird, because if I had to look it up, that means it's a weird word.
Sara: 44:14
Clearly. What word did you have to look up?
Lilly: 44:17
Shacko? Shaco? I don't know how to pronounce it.
Sara: 44:23
I don't know either.
Lilly: 44:24
Yeah, it's a weird word, that's why.
Sara: 44:27
So it's a kind of military hat. I didn't look it up because I just assumed that I didn't need to know more than military hat. I got it from context, but,
Lilly: 44:37
Well, yeah, except I kept calling it a cap, and so in my mind I was picturing something that was like the same shape as someone's head. A cap is the same shape as a person's head in my mind. Like,
Sara: 44:49
Like a baseball cap kind of thing.
Lilly: 44:51
a baseball cap or like a skull cap, you know, like a short tight beanie or whatever. And they kept saying shako, they kept saying cap, and I did not actually look it up while I was reading the book, which I probably should have. Because my mental image was very wrong. But it turns out it's a nutcracker hat. By which I mean, yes, it's a military headwear. But it's the exact kind that you see on a little nutcracker doll, which is my only association with this type of hat.
Sara: 45:22
Yeah.
Lilly: 45:23
It's actually very funny. Like, there's all sorts of, like, feathers and shit on it that I was not expecting.
Sara: 45:29
I mean, I guess it makes sense because isn't that the kind of hat that the female figure is wearing on the cover of the book?
Lilly: 45:37
Yes, but I do not trust the cover of a Discworld novel farther than I can swallow it. I know normally that saying would be farther than you can throw it, but I can throw the cover of a Discworld novel quite far.
Sara: 45:50
Fair. Yeah, I guess Monstrous Regiment, the cover of Monstrous Regiment has always felt more appropriate to the book because it's a female figure wearing it. military clothing than some of Pratchett's covers. So I guess I always assumed the hat was correct too. And I think my assumption was correct, as this words are weird segment has proved, but you're right that that's not a guarantee.
Lilly: 46:16
Yeah. I entirely dismissed the cover, which in this case was wrong. But is not usually. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fan.
Sara: 46:34
Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.
Lilly: 46:44
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Sara: 46:51
We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense. And we're currently doing a Patreon drive, as we mentioned at the top of this episode. So we would extra appreciate it if you supported us on Patreon.
Lilly: 47:07
Well, you will also get some extra fun stuff if you support us on Patreon one week from today. Everyone who supports us one week from today gets some fun extra stuff. So now is the time. If you are on the fence, if you were like, Well, I know they have a Patreon that they don't post anything on, but I don't know if I want to sign up.
Sara: 47:28
we do post things to it.
Lilly: 47:30
And we do now. But, yeah. No, it's good. It's fun. I've really been enjoying editing the content for it. And if I like it, then it's probably decent.
Sara: 47:41
Please help us pay for our base administrative costs. We would really appreciate it.
Lilly: 47:46
Yeah.
Sara: 47:48
Thank you again for listening to this episode, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!
