Mexican Gothic & Equal Rites

Episode 6

Release Date: 4/14/2021

Lilly goes goth with her recent readings of Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia as well as “The Raven” by Edgar Allen Poe for National Poetry Month. It also contains major spoilers for “The Fall of the House of Usher” by Edgar Allen Poe. Your hosts Journey to the Center of the Discworld with a discussion of “Equal Rites” by Terry Pratchett, then Sara proposes a new segment: “Freya Stark is Just So Cool.” Also, words are weird. Music provided by Audio Library Plus: “Travel With Us” by Vendredi; “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” by Amarià; and "Call to Adventure" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:03

Hello, and welcome to fiction fans, a podcast where we talk about books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara 00:11

And I'm Sara. So, Lily, let's start this off with something good that happened.

Lilly 00:18

Well, spring has officially sprung. I have no idea if that is true, you know, based on the planets or whatever. But yesterday, I got into my car and for the first time, it was uncomfortably warm, instead of ice cold. So I'm very happy. Not as exciting. It's exciting. And then today It's gloomy and dark again, but it's so close. I can

Sara 00:44

it's actually quite chilly here. It is sunny. And previous days have been warm. But like this week is all it's there's an icy wind blowing.

Lilly 00:54

Yeah, but, but we're inching ever closer. Yes. I wonder if it is actually spring. First day of spring. Hold on. For it is it is officially spring. It has been for a couple of weeks. So now it actually is I decree it. So how about you with something good that happened this week.

Sara 01:16

So my something good this week is we recorded our buddy read discussion of all systems read by Martha wells, with the friends talking fantasy podcast.

Lilly 01:27

That was so much fun. I had such a good time doing that. It really was. Yeah, there's so great to just, it was crazy talking with people who we've like sort of met over Twitter, but then getting to know them in a closer to face to face interaction. Almost face to face. It feels like it now I almost put on my mask before zoom calls just because of my mental checklist. I'm like, okay, like what do I need? I have my pen. I have my paper. Oh, I'm seeing people I need to put on a mask in mind,

Sara 02:02

yeah. But yes, Charles and Dylan are lovely. And their podcast is fantastic. If you are not already listening to them and following them on social media, you should a listen and be follow,

Lilly 02:12

especially to the episode that we're going to be on especially to our episode.

Sara 02:15

Yes, I think our episode will actually be airing before this episode that you're currently listening to is out. So notes. If you haven't listened to it, go and listen to it.

Lilly 02:26

Well, Sara, what are you drinking this evening?

Sara 02:29

I am switching things up and drinking tea. Good tea.

Lilly 02:32

Oh, what tea is it?

Sara 02:34

It is again my that I bought from tandem tea. which coincidentally I was turned on to because it is Charles from the FTF podcasts company. So but it's very good tea. What are you drinking tonight?

Lilly 02:48

In a complete coincidence that was not at all coordinated. I am also drinking tandem Tea Company tea.

Sara 02:55

Oh my taste and I am actually shocked you didn't mention this.

Lilly 03:01

I no surprise. But I am drinking the Garden District which is an herbal blend. Mostly hibiscus and peppermint with a solid spoonful of honey and just a shot or two of vodka. Okay, you it's a quite quite delicious cocktail. I'd have to say.

Sara 03:23

That's not I'm normally not a fruit tea person. But adding the I could be convinced by the addition of vodka. Like I think that that is an ice tea.

Lilly 03:34

Technically, none of those are fruit. But I noticed Oh, okay, you I am drinking a cold. Yes.

Sara 03:43

Yeah. Have you read anything good lately?

Lilly 03:46

I have actually. It is April. I think it's still April, right. Yeah, it is.

Sara 03:51

It is still April. It is only mid April.

Lilly 03:54

What is time I don't even know. Which means it is National Poetry Month. And one of the books that I read for the podcast put me in a very gothic mood. So I reread some poems, namely the Raven, which is always longer than I remember. For some reason. I think it's only a couple stanzas long, but that thing is practically a whole book. And it's, it's just nice. It's a good. It's a good poem.

Sara 04:25

It is a good poem. I haven't read it in ages. And yes, when I think about it, I think Oh, it's just like a page or two.

Lilly 04:32

It tricks you.

Sara 04:33

It does.

Lilly 04:34

Yeah, the language and that is just gives me shivers every time. How about you?

Sara 04:39

I read a number of things. I finished reading Sarah finos limit by search horn, which I mentioned in our last episode. It has beautiful prose and absolutely one of the most gorgeous covers I've ever seen, like I'm in love with that cover. I know you're not supposed to judge a book by their cover, but I was just about to salutely judge this book by its cover because its cover is gorgeous. Guess and the book is good too. And then I also read The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch, which super hyped on Twitter, like the relationship between two of the characters is frequently named as like the best duo in fantasy. And I thought that it was a solidly enjoyable book. And I do plan on continuing the series eventually, but I thought that it felt like witty banter substituted for character depth and development for a good portion of the book. So I didn't I didn't quite maybe it maybe I had heard too much about it, you know, like, Yeah, I had too high expectations.

Lilly 05:36

Don't you hate it when that happens. I know, like you could have had such a great experience. But sometimes hearing too much can can really ruin ruin a referee. It really it's,

Sara 05:45

it's funny how that works. And then I'm also reading children by Bjorn Larsen, which is a retelling and reimagining of Norse mythology. And it's good, but I can only read it in small doses, because it's very dark at points. There is one scene fairly early on that plays with sexual consent and power dynamics. And it is, oh, boy, it's hard to read like it was it was written to be uncomfortable and upsetting. And it's uncomfortable and upsetting.

Lilly 06:15

I never have a problem with that. As long as the author did it on purpose.

Sara 06:18

Oh, yeah. I mean, like this is this is totally intentional. And it's supposed to, we're supposed to feel very skeeved out by what's happening. But,

Lilly 06:27

but you still are. Yeah, so he does a great job at that. But I'm

Sara 06:31

like, Oh, God, I need to detox after this.

Lilly 06:35

Well, good thing. We have some we had some lighter books to read this week. Yes, indeed. There is. Also, of course, I assume you read at least a little bit of Wheel of Time,

Sara 06:46

I read a grand total of three chapters of wheel of time last night. I made a ton of progress, as you can see. So I don't have really anything for our Wheel of Time check in except that man is so boring. Like men has a lot of potential as a character. And I like her in concept. But in execution, I just I do not care. The more I read about her, the less I care. It's supposed to be the other way

Lilly 07:15

around.

Sara 07:16

It is supposed to be the it's a shame because I think she could be a really interesting character. Like I said, I think the concept is great, but just I just don't care about her.

Lilly 07:28

Well, hopefully she's not at a too much. I have no idea. I think you are released.

Sara 07:36

She's not she's not a main character. But she shows up. I'm imagining that she will continue to show up through the next four books because she is kind of important, or three and a half books.

Lilly 07:48

God that series as long is it getting old that I complain about it every time I'm not even the one reading it.

Sara 07:54

I have complained as complain as much as you want.

Lilly 08:01

Good, good, because I will.

Sara 08:05

So Lily, you read a book for this episode of podcast. But again, I did not read.

Lilly 08:12

Did I ever. This was well. Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno Garcia was one of the first books I put on our list purely so that I would have an excuse to read it. You're welcome. Yes, thank you very much. I think I saw it first in a Twitter ad, actually. And the description of it. Just you ever find something and go, Oh, Marina Garcia wrote this book for me How nice.

Sara 08:44

When you were telling me about it, I was like, Oh, yes, this is a lovely book. This is definitely a lovely book.

Lilly 08:50

It is and well, as the title suggests, it is a gothic novel. And it really hits all of those tropes. So well. I don't know Sara, how much gothic literature you've read. But it's very location heavy. There's often a lot of mores. You got to have some good fog in there. There's almost always some kind of Castle or Manor that must be in terrible condition. You can't have like a clean, well operated house in a gothic novel. There's all this imagery of just destruction and decay, and the sort of trudge of time. It's a very atmospheric genre. So the main character is usually brought into this setting, often from a romantic entanglement. I even think of you know, Jane Eyre, she marries. What's his face? I should probably remember.

Sara 09:50

She marries someone.

Lilly 09:54

A young woman marries a guy after knowing him for not long enough, and then goes Oh, no, what have I gotten myself in? unto. That's basically every gothic novel. Not actually, like the Fall of the House of Usher, which is one of the big ones by Poe. It's an old college buddy, who get who decides to visit his friend. And then is, you know, stumbling across the Moors going, Oh, no, what have I gotten myself? There's always that sort of dreaded realization in there at some point. And there's often a lot of motifs of illness, either, you know, the main character catches ill or there's a family member whose elders this illness and decay and gloominess it's, anyway, this is the genre, and it is all done. I mean, it is all absolutely in this book. It has the added sort of extra dimension, in that it does take place in Mexico in the 1950s, which is not a typical setting for a gothic novel. But I think that really added some three to say freshness, after I just described how dusty and gloomy everything about Gothic literature is. But it definitely added an element that you don't normally get. And so the main character is Mexican, but the family, the, you know, the spooky house family, there's always a spooky house family. They are British. So you've still got that, that good ol creepy old Brit element to it.

Sara 11:37

It wouldn't be a gothic novel without it really wouldn't.

Lilly 11:42

But then, in this book, instead of the main character, getting married, it's actually her cousin who did. And her cousins sends some very distressing letters back to the family. And so know me, the main character is sort of sent to find out what the heck is going on.

Sara 12:05

So does the cousin marry into the creepy British family? Of course. She's taking one for the team.

Lilly 12:16

Well, they're always swept away at the beginning. We don't actually see that in this book. Because again, right, Catalina is the is the one who marries this into those spooky British family. And that has happened before the beginning of the book. Which is part of why this book didn't feel tired. You this, this wasn't just okay. You just changed Jane Ayers name and set this in Mexico. You know, it wasn't like that at all. It's actually like its own story. But as a fan of Gothic literature, it was so much so much fun. I love that stuff is great. Give me some spookiness. Give me some mystery, the mystery. Oh, that's all going to be after the spoiler break? Because, I mean, obviously, I'm not going to tell you the mystery.

Sara 13:06

I wasn't even aware that there was a mystery of this.

Lilly 13:09

So that's actually yeah, it's that there's the spooky British house. And the question is always what the heck is going on here? And the answer is always different, which is something I like about Gothic literature. You never know if it's going to be if it's going to have a rational explanation. Or if Oh, yeah, surprise, undead or real, like a gothic lit, it could go either way. But there's always that threat of the supernatural. But that's part of what I like about the genre. You know, if you're reading a fantasy novel, and it starts in New York City, you're like, gosh, I bet something magical is going to happen.

Sara 13:51

I think that's probably why I'm not attracted to gothic literature as a genre. Because, like, if there's the threat of something stupid, I just want the supernatural.

Lilly 14:01

Ah, no, I love that. Reading books like this, you really don't know which way it's gonna go. And that journey to me is, like, you know, obviously, as the reader, I'm trying to figure it out. I'm trying to sleuth through it with the main character, you're there with her. Right and trying to go like, Oh, was she? You know, is she reading the situation? Right? Do I Do I think she's onto something. Or, you know, I also like mysteries. So,

Sara 14:32

I mean, I enjoy mysteries. But I want there to be a clean or clear delineation between, is there going to be magic? Or is there not going to be magic? Because if if there's if magic is hinted at as a possibility, then I'll be disappointed when it doesn't show up. That's a personal thing.

Lilly 14:52

Yeah, I get that. I just, I would probably be annoyed if every book was like that. But sometimes it's really It's so compelling to go into something, and truly not knowing how it's gonna end. It's not like a superhero movie where you're like, you know, for some reason, I think the good guys are gonna win. Yeah. I'm actually really invested in what's happening. And oh, man, the mystery in this book. I had to put it down when I was about almost exactly halfway through. Just because, you know, I have a life, unfortunately. And I actually had a nightmare about it. No, it wasn't exactly a nightmare. But there are spooky dreams. In this book, the main character starts having scary dreams. And when I woke up, I was like, was I reading too late? Was that the book? Or was that my dream? Like I could not remember right away, which was a very fun experience, at least. I mean, I had a good time. But just like it really got into my head.

Sara 16:02

I feel I feel like that's the mark of a good book, though, is when you have dreams that are connected to it. I not necessarily, I don't necessarily want to say it's great when your books give you nightmares.

Lilly 16:14

So anyway, Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno Garcia, if you like gothic novels at all, if you like mysteries, at all. Read this book, stop listening right now go read it. The rest of this conversation covers various horror topics such as violence and sexual assault, if you don't want to listen to that content, or you want to avoid spoilers for Mexican Gothic, skip to 3150. Okay, so I mentioned how it's unclear whether the house is spooky, for supernatural reasons or for regular reasons. And I think this book did that in such a cool way. How so? The old dilapidated Manor has mold growing everywhere, you know, because it's old and dilapidated, and there's fog and, you know, falling apart. And at one point, Nick, not Naomi know me, because the theory that maybe we're all getting sick from this mold. And that's why we're all experiencing these strange things. And by we all she means herself and her cousin for the most part. And then it turns out, it is the mold, but that's because the mold has been grabbing the consciousnesses of of all the wives that have died there. Oh, my so the ghost surreal there in the the mushroom colony. Mushroom, Sara, I think most of my notes for this book, were just mushrooms in all caps.

Sara 17:57

I mean, I'm looking at our show notes. And yes, there are some notes that just say mushrooms.

Lilly 18:04

It's so cool though, because, you know, a mushroom circle or I'll actually just one organism that are connected by by filaments underneath the ground. And the supernatural aspect of this book is that the patriarch discovered a mushroom that if you ate would sort of help, it would transfer the memories of the person it grew on. So if you passed away, and these mushrooms grew on you, and then someone ate them, they would get some of your memories. Interesting. And so he of course, is an evil bad guy, and warped that he would murder his wives, and also occasionally infant children. And then, you know, there's some cannibalism and mushroom growing and basically grew mushrooms on their bodies and created a network of mushrooms throughout this house. So that anyone who died there, and you know, their body became part of the mushroom network. Their consciousness became part of it. So the ghosts were real. It wasn't, you know, they were being driven crazy by the mushrooms, but it was also magic at the same time. And that was just oh, so good. But especially because of that reveal. And that is such a logical explanation. You know, just the sickness, basically the crazy making mold, which I think it's a thing.

Sara 19:31

Yeah, I mean, it's certainly mold making you sick is the thing. I don't know if it makes you crazy. But

Lilly 19:37

isn't that one of the theories of the witch trials is that everyone was eating moldy bread and it made them go crazy. I did not recall or have hallucinations. I think that's been dismissed. But there I think there was mold that can cause you to hallucinate. Anyway, it was a solid enough theory that like I said, I honestly did not know huh, If that was true or not reading this book, yeah, I mean, it sounds quite logical. Yeah. So Catalina and Noemi are seeing these ghosts. And they're like, Oh God, I'm going crazy. Why? Is it just the isolation? Like, why am I losing my sanity? And as it turns out, no, it's all real. That yeah, oh, mushrooms. I think mushrooms are really cool. Mushrooms are really cool. And that's also an aspect of, I didn't want to get into it in the opening part, because I felt like it would lead a little bit. I guess I kind of got into it anyway. But another trope of Gothic literature is science versus mysticism. Which comes out a lot in like, is this house haunted? Or is there just an insane woman locked in the attic? Kind of thing? Yeah. Which is the plot of more than one gothic novel. In so that's, that's Jane Eyre. And then in the Fall of the House of Usher, they buried someone before she was actually dead. And so all all of the banging is her trying to get out of the tomb. Oh, that's terrifying. It is terrifying. Oh, it's really horrifying and scary. I, I like I like my book spooky sometimes.

Sara 21:22

I mean, it I'm also not much of a horror person. So

Lilly 21:25

Oh, horrors, right? Horror. So in Mexican Gothic, there is just about every flavor of horror you can imagine. You know, there's the light, almost romantic horror of the spooky house, the spooky British house, which they describe as looking like it could have come from a gothic novel more than once, which is too many times. The book is already called Mexican Gothic. Like, I get it. Okay. So there's that. And then there's, of course, the sort of run of the mill. Haunting horror, which is boring to me. Not maybe not boring to be but commonplace. Not my favorite kind of horror. Yeah, there's ghosts. All right, yeah. But then there's some, like truly awful body horror, because the patriarch has been using his mushroom network to transfer his consciousness into his children. Oh, so he's basically living forever. Right? Because everyone connected to the mushrooms are also connected. Like mentally they are infected by the spores. You are connected to this. It's one organism. It's a must for her work. Yeah. And so by raising his children in this house, they're all so infected that when he dies, he can just take possess them, basically. Oh, and but we see him right at the very end of his life. And he like he has mushrooms growing out of him and boils. And he's just he's a monster. He's a mushroom monster. So there's just some, like, truly unsettling body horror there. But then, on the other end of the spectrum, we also get what I would consider more of a psychological horror, where when you're infected with these spores, they can influence you. They the spooky British family, right. So the main character is sexually assaulted by one of the other characters multiple times. She thinks they're just nightmares for a while and then finds out maybe they were he was, you know, if he was doing it on purpose, then that still counts. But what make sense so extra horrifying, is because the spores are exerting influence over her mind. She's into it while it's happening. It's only afterwards she realizes what, like those weren't her thoughts basis. Oh, so it's just that sort of extra cerebral. Not only being out of control of your actions, but being out of control of your own emotions. is like, it's it's magical mushroom. Goofy's like that is just such a Yeah.

Sara 24:26

Unpleasant Yeah.

Lilly 24:27

extremely unpleasant. So it really hits. Like, whatever type of horror you like, it'll hit that. There's also like I mentioned cannibalism. Because they're eating the bodies of people infected by mushrooms to like, keep the mushroom thing going to be extra mushroomy. That's basically exactly yes to be extra. And then also, this was what I definitely didn't mention up top because it's kind of a It's kind of a reveal when it happens in the booth when you find out in the book. But not everyone can be absorbed into the mushroom network. Not physically, you know, mentally, not everyone is compatible is what they saw. And so to make sure he always has a compatible host, the patriarch is just super incest it, oh, he has a son and a daughter. And then he possesses the Son, and then uses the daughter to make more children. And that basis basically has been going on for hundreds of years.

Sara 25:33

So is compatibility like a genetic thing?

Lilly 25:37

Well, that's how it's explained. It's not confirmed though, because he's also like, a psychotic eugenics guy. And so maybe he's just nuts though.

Sara 25:49

Yeah, it sounds like

Lilly 25:52

because that that was his excuse, basically, for grooming his entire family for 500 years, or however long it's been, but then they coerce these two young Mexican women to come to their Manor and Oh, guess what, they just happen to also be super compatible. What like, Wow, what a coincidence. Or maybe that's not a thing and you're just a creepy psycho. Because they tried to say, wow, you know, we wouldn't think someone of of your stock or however they put it some creepy gross eugenics way of saying it would even be compatible with our amazing, you know, long life mushrooms. But, but, you know, is that really a rare thing? Or are they just crazy nuts? So

Sara 26:44

yeah, I think I yeah, I think they're probably just crazy and racist,

Lilly 26:48

I think probably. Which, and then, you know, incest leading to the fall of the creepy British family is also a common theme in Gothic literature. That's so I couldn't bring that up, though. Because finding out that the patriarch has been doing this for hundreds of years is kind of a big deal. Something I absolutely loved about this book, though, is it also has some repeated imagery of fairy tales. And at the end, Noemi is basically the prince who rides up to the castle to save the princess. But the princess is the youngest son of the family who is not as indoctrinated as everyone else. He still can't totally control himself, but he doesn't agree with it the way everyone else does.

Sara 27:43

So is it a romance between Noemi and the youngest son?

Lilly 27:48

Eventually? Yes, that was not she kind of low level flirts with him the whole time. But that's just sort of her character. She flirts. She's a First Lady. That's fine. You know, she's a society girl. Which is maybe not exactly the phrase, I mean, but you know what I'm saying she goes to fancy parties, and that's just how she, like, interacts with people. But he has literally never met anyone else. So he's very overwhelmed by. But then she starts to actually really care for him, like as a person, because he's the only semi normal one. And then you also find out he's really the only semi normal one. And she saves him. Like, she literally has to carry him out at one point. So it's very, it's very fairy tale in that way, but like a nice reversal of it.

Sara 28:41

But they can't I mean, if he's, if he's never had any sort of outside contact, they can't have a relationship of equals.

Lilly 28:49

I was being a little dramatic. He's been to the little village that the castle the manners,

Sara 28:55

okay, so so he's not, he's not completely sheltered.

Lilly 28:58

No, he has met other people. He's the only person in the family who can actually speak Spanish, okay. And so that's how they plan her. Like how he helps her escape. Because the house is full of mushrooms, they can hear everything they're saying where you are in the house. But all of those racist Fox never bothered to learn Spanish. So Frances is the good guys name. He's the only one who bothered. So they can speak in Spanish to make their plans to escape. But so he he would go into town for errands, but he never like stayed overnight there. So it wasn't like he had friends. Right? I agree. They aren't like running off into the sunset to get married. She just says, of course you're going to come to Mexico City where she's from. You can't stay in. He's trying to stay in the house. Well, it's burning down because he does like Where else will I go? This is the only place I know. And she says no, like, I'll take care of you. Don't worry Free. Like, I'll look out for you. I'll help you reintegrate into society, basically. And it's just, it's sweet.

Sara 30:08

What happens to the cousin?

Lilly 30:10

Also saved? Okay? I know. Yes, Catalina is also saved. She's actually the one who manages to throw off the mind control long enough to kill basic Well, she doesn't actually manage to kill him, but she harms him enough that they can start to run away. And she also murders her husband who is complicit and does like does like this whole system they have going on there. Which I'm I'm was really happy for her. She's basically catatonic through most of the book. But with her cousin there, she is able to sort of get the willpower to destroy these people who have tried to basically kidnap her and killed her take her life away. And yes, eventually Yes. But I'm glad that she was able to have that moment instead of Noemi just

Sara 31:04

to hold it gives her back a little bit of agency. It sounds like Yeah,

Lilly 31:08

exactly. That was really one of the overarching themes of this book is even Francis even though he doesn't like what his family is doing. He doesn't even try to against them until Noemi is there and gives him a reason to try. Very, I mean very dark, very dark book in some places, but it had a very satisfying, fulfilling and optimistic ending with the spooky house burning down and destroyed all of the mushrooms in it.

Sara 31:39

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Lilly 31:44

It didn't make me hungry for grilled mushrooms though.

31:46

Yeah, that sounds good, doesn't it? Because

Lilly 31:58

it's that time again. Time for us to take another step on our journey to the center. The Discworld

Sara 32:07

done.

Lilly 32:09

Actually, we already played the music but

Sara 32:14

you're welcome. I just wanted to contribute something.

Lilly 32:18

You contribute everything you can contribute the title of the book for this episode.

Sara 32:23

Yes. So for this journey to the center of the Discworld, we read equal rights, which is the third book in the Discworld series, published in 1987. The publication

Lilly 32:34

page, of course, written by Sir Terry Pratchett. Oh, did I not mentioned I did not mention that doesn't go without saying hopefully, maybe.

Sara 32:45

I feel I feel like if you've made it this far, you'd have presumably listened to us talk about a journey to the center of the Discworld before. And so we'd know that Discworld is Terry Pratchett I don't know

Lilly 32:58

if or read the episode description or read the episode description that too. But we're now getting into what we we consider more legit Discworld because the first two books are definitely Pratchett gating finding his sea legs, so to speak.

Sara 33:20

Yeah, this this is more more like Discworld final form. Like there, there are still some bits of it that are not where he's still experimenting. But it's much closer to what you would expect from a traditional, quote unquote. Discworld novel,

Lilly 33:43

it feels wrong to refer to Discworld as traditional. It does somehow. How many books are in this series as a whole? We keep talking about Discworld, but I don't think we've actually mentioned how long it is.

Sara 33:55

I think it's I want to say it's 41 books.

Lilly 34:00

Damn, I got to stop making fun of Wheel of Time.

Sara 34:03

Yeah, 41 novels. The Internet tells me

Lilly 34:06

they mostly stand alone, though, discovered that yes,

Sara 34:10

they are standalone books. I mean, there's there's character progression. But I think for the most part, if you pick one up, it doesn't matter if you've picked up a previous book, and they're also much shorter than the Wheel of Time books.

Lilly 34:22

That's true. And that's extra true for equal rights because it has almost nothing to do with the first two books other than being set in the same world.

Sara 34:35

Yeah, I don't think that there are any characters in the first two books who appear in this. It does involve wizards but even the wizards are different.

Lilly 34:46

So the location is the same. You have the unseen University, which is the wizarding school. But other than that, that's about the only overlap.

Sara 34:56

Yeah, the math is the same.

Lilly 34:59

I don't Think the character death even showed up? He's sort of implied at the beginning, but you don't actually hear any dialogue from him, which is very strange.

Sara 35:09

No, you do you do hear dialogue from Okay, good, good. Yeah.

Lilly 35:13

Otherwise, is it even Discworld

Sara 35:16

I guess death as a character is the overlap, but beyond him, and he's only in the beginning for a very small portion of it.

Lilly 35:26

Now the premise of this book, as you might have gleaned from the title delves into the conflict between witches and wizards or witchcraft and wizardry, I should say, the conflict is not so much between the people as it is between the concepts of the two, or at least that's what's on the page. Pratchett is using these two sort of conflicting magical philosophies to really look, look at the construct of the patriarchy, the artificial barriers presented to women trying to interact with traditionally male spaces, I could go on.

Sara 36:11

Yeah, I mean, as As expected from, from a Pratchett novel.

Lilly 36:16

He does this by introducing a woman who is destined for wizardry. And he does that in sort of a he, he plays on the shortcomings of tradition in a really cool way, I think.

Sara 36:32

Yeah. So it started the book starts out with a wizard, going in search of someone that he can who wizard who knows that he's dying, going in search of someone that he can leave his magic to, and he, he goes to a house, but is about to have an eighth son of an eighth son. And he says, Okay, I'm going to leave my magic to your son, and then he dies. And then, right. As that happens, it's discovered that, Oh, whoops, it's actually an eighth daughter. And so then you get into, well, she has wizard magic, but she's a woman or she's a girl. And girls don't learn wizardry that specifically a male job or a male magic. And so the book is an exploration of her attempts to learn wizardry and Pratchett's commentary on this sort of arbitrary divide between the sexes.

Lilly 37:36

Okay, why should you read this book? Sarah?

Sara 37:40

You should read this book, because it has Granny Weatherwax on it. Oh,

Lilly 37:46

you should read it. Every book of Granny Weatherwax.

Sara 37:50

Yes. See, that's that's why it's part of my argument for why you should read this book. But it is a fun exploration of

Lilly 38:01

it uses magic as a metaphor, of course, unless you're hiding something from me, Sarah. But it uses that to explore the false concepts that the genders have different capabilities. Yeah. Maybe a better question is, should you read this book? First? Because I think our answer is going to be read all of Discworld done. But should this be your first Discworld novel?

Sara 38:30

I don't think this should be your first Discworld novel. I think it's okay. If it is, it's certainly a better entry point into Discworld than the first two books. But I think that he's still finding his feet. And even though it's much closer in form to what Discworld will be, it's still better to start where he has a better grasp on the characters and what he wants from the series.

Lilly 38:58

I would agree this is definitely one of those that when you know where he's going with it, you sort of bring that to this book. To avoid spoilers for equal rights, skip to 5650. I wanted to put a spoiler break there because I wanted to say something I'm really glad Pratchett didn't do. But that's kind of a spoiler if you didn't do something, right. Yeah, I

Sara 39:31

think I think that would constitute as a spoiler. I'm really glad

Lilly 39:35

he didn't just rehash that old. So she dressed up as a boy thing. I think that could have been a really obvious way to go. Yeah,

Sara 39:46

it feels like a fresh take on it because she goes to the university as this 11 year old girl who's insistent that she learned magic. And she's told no and Granny Weatherwax, who is the witch for her village, who is with her on this trip into the city into Ogmore pork fines and in for her, but it means that she goes to the unseen University as like a service like she goes, she goes there the maid she gets in as a maid. Yeah, she's not actually there as a student.

Lilly 40:24

I think the sosi dressed up as a boy is over, not over done, but has been done. It has been

Sara 40:32

done. iI you don't? There's there's not a lot of things to say about that.

Lilly 40:37

And I think there's something else to be said in. This is a story about a girl who wants to be a girl wizard. You know, that's her whole goal. It's not, you know, pretend to be something you aren't change who you are in order to get this power. It's, you can be a girl and be a wizard.

Sara 41:02

That's a very good point, actually,

Lilly 41:05

I get it has a whole different sort of impact to it.

Sara 41:10

Yeah. Because if she was gonna change who she was, I feel like the story goes, she would just learn witchcraft. But ultimately, it's shown that, that her I don't want to say type of magic, but but her her method of using magic is pretty incompatible with witchcraft. That's just not the way that she works. Although a lot

Lilly 41:37

of the things she does is also not typical wizardry, which is sort of brought up in the book, she's doing things that wizards don't think are possible, just because no one has told her they're impossible.

Sara 41:48

Exactly, there's a really good quote about that. It is well known that a vital ingredient of success is not knowing that you're that what you're attempting can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a half brick in the path of the bicycle of history.

Lilly 42:04

And I think that's such a great hint early on. We we sort of discussed this a little bit out of the podcast, but I feel like the where this book ends is that witchcraft and wizardry, aren't actually different magics themselves, because that's a refrain through the whole book, all of the characters are saying, witchcraft is women's magic, and wizardry is men's magic. But at the end, you you do sort of see where they overlap. And it leaves you off thinking really left me thinking, they're probably not different magics they're just different ways of approaching it.

Sara 42:50

Yeah, they have, they have the same source, but but different ways of going at it,

Lilly 42:55

right. And that made me think of the concept that women aren't actually more emotionally intelligent than men. They're just socialized to be. And so witchcraft isn't women's magic. Witchcraft is just the type of magic that women are socialized to perform. You we do see a sort of Battle of magic near the end between Granny Weatherwax, the the main characters, Guardian, and the head of the wizarding school. Granny does eventually charge and bear and demands to be taken seriously. This is near the climax of the book. She doesn't do that, to get the main character into the school, she does it to save the world. Because sometimes things are necessary. And sometimes you can find a way around it, which is sort of her whole point. Yeah. But by then, she, she charges in there, and they, they go at each other using the same stuff. Like their transfiguring each other and like, that's the same magic?

Sara 44:02

I think, I think I Well, two things. I think you have a point there. But also, my interpretation of that scene was so different because I was, when I, when I read it, I was thinking, Oh, this is exactly like the sword in the stone. So I was, I was feeling more the reference that it was making to like the callback it was making to other work and not so much the reference that it was making to like the somatic reference that it was making, right? Because it is exactly like the scene between Marlon and Madame men in the sword in the stone.

Lilly 44:40

Well, that's excellent. And something I did not get at all.

Sara 44:44

Yeah, I had to do. I had to do a lot of googling because it's been ages since I've read the sword in the stone. And even longer since I've seen the movie and I couldn't remember who Merlin was battling. It was very hard to find that information.

Lilly 44:59

I do want to talk A little bit about Granny Weatherwax for a second. She is a incredible and amazing and I love her.

Sara 45:09

Granny is actually my favorite. Probably my if I have had to rank characters and Discworld which please don't make me do because I think granny would be my number one.

Lilly 45:20

She has this someone calls her, Mrs. Or, or mom or mom or you know mother Weatherwax or something like that. And every time she corrects them and says I'm no one's mother, Granny and then someone asked who she's granny of. And the main character says, well, sort of everyone I suppose.

Sara 45:42

I really like granny because it's I feel it's very rare that you find a character who plays this version like plays this, this part of an old lady like crone in the trio, which is which doesn't show up in this particular book. But well, we'll get there eventually. But that's kind of her choice. Like, there's a good quote, where ask, says, didn't you want to get married? It was Granny's time to think, never got around to it. She said it last too many other things to do you see. And it's nice to see someone who just kind of doesn't care about marriage and relationships.

Lilly 46:22

Right? She's not making a big deal out of it. Yeah, it just it just automatic. Yeah,

Sara 46:26

she's not, she's not bitter about it.

Lilly 46:29

I think you and I have discussed this off the air. But the witches in Discworld are really reminiscent of, I think it's an agreed upon thing. That, which is the real women were just medicine, women who, you know, gave herbal cures for things like birth control, which is not explicitly stated in the book. But that's because the main character s is young. And so they don't want to actually spell it out in front of her. But it's clearly, you know, it's

Sara 47:06

it's heavily implied,

Lilly 47:08

it's very heavily implied, like it's

Sara 47:10

there in the tax. It's just they don't say those words, but it's there.

Lilly 47:15

And this isn't exactly on topic, but I just really love the connection between that old witch story that a young woman goes off into the forest and trades her firstborn child for some kind of futures, some some goal, some personal goal, and how closely that bears the concept of abortion. And these were probably stories created to vilify these medicine women who were just performing a medical procedure. But that idea of trading a firstborn child for a future just like really clicks, I think. And that's, I think that's very neat. And not exactly on topic, but the witches in Discworld do the same thing. So I'm gonna say

Sara 48:08

they provide those services. Yeah.

Lilly 48:11

And then also, you know, magical Viagra and whatever else,

Sara 48:16

except Except that most of it is just pretend. Verbal. Pretend Yeah, but but there's head ology. Yeah, there's, there's head ology, like, yeah, Granny has a quote about people will believe it, if you make a production out of it. So she says, Listen, said, granny, if you give someone a bottle of red Jhalak, for their wind, it may work, right? But if you want it to work, for sure, then you let their mind make it work for them. Tell them it's moonbeams bottled and fairy wine or something?

Lilly 48:49

Which is also a real thing. I mean, we all know that placebos have a whatever percent success rate 10 or something? I don't know. They had they have a success rate. But there are studies that show if the placebo is perceived to be expensive or exclusive, the success rate goes up.

Sara 49:09

I mean, I feel like that's the that's the same way that people get you to buy things. They they tell you that it's exclusive or you're getting a great deal, even if it's an imaginary deal,

Lilly 49:21

right? But be like people actually say like, yes, they had a better reduction in pain, or whatever. If they paid a lot of money for it. There's a mental component. There's absolutely a mental component just in in I'm going to use the word wellness. Just everyone know I'm rolling my eyes at the same time. But there is and the the witch which is in this book, tap into that very successfully.

Sara 49:54

And granny in particular. Oh,

Lilly 49:56

she's She's a master. She's incredible. Yeah. She He's also one of the few characters in this book that stay the same, not not the same, but

Sara 50:07

her character gets refined as Terry Pratchett and later book writes more Discworld. Yeah. And in later books, but there are a lot. Well, not a lot there. There are two kind of what I would call like proto characters. In this book, where you can see there are direct parallels between them and characters who show up as side characters and later books,

Lilly 50:30

parallels or almost direct carbon copies with a different name. Yeah. That's underselling it.

Sara 50:39

I mean, I think one of them is more of a parallel, Simon, who is similar to ask, going into the unseen University to study wizardry, except that he's a man. So he actually gets in.

Lilly 50:56

Kid, he's a kid.

Sara 50:57

He's a kid. He's like 14 or something. Yeah. But male. Yes. But male. So he gets in. But there are parallels between him and a, I want to say like graduate studies with wizard in later books, ponerse dibbens. And that's more. That's not a direct like one to one relationship between those two characters, I don't think. But

Lilly 51:24

they're just, they're a young, a young wizard, or student who is approaching magic from a much more STEM based approach. Yes, the, the old stodgy, sort of, we're wizards and we're gonna sit around smoking pipes,

Sara 51:44

they have a more scientific approach to magic, as opposed to the smoke and mirrors approach of the traditional wizards at the university. But the character of cutting angle, however, his name was pronounced, who is the arch chancellor of the unseen University and this book is, as you said, basically a one to one prototype carbon copy. Yeah, prototype of our chancellor, arch Chancellor red Kelly, who is the arch Chancellor. Later on in the series. They're both arch chancellor of the unseen University. They're both from the same place the RAM tops.

Lilly 52:29

They both have a crush on granny. Which, who doesn't also there.

Sara 52:36

So he's, he's very clearly proto wrinkly. Like Pratchett clearly has an idea for this character that he wants to explore. And he ends up doing it through I mean, he changes some aspects of, of Qatar angle, you know the name and things like that, but

Lilly 52:52

it really makes me wonder why he changed his name, but not granny. Weatherwax is

Sara 52:58

written clearly sounds better,

Lilly 53:00

is a baby. That's it, maybe. Yeah, because contango is a bad name. Yeah.

Sara 53:10

And I think that read Kelly gets some minor character changes, like cute is

Lilly 53:16

Granny Weatherwax.

Sara 53:17

Oh, does Granny Weatherwax it's drill.

Lilly 53:18

So if he's gonna keep Granny, why, but maybe it was just the name. Like, I really think maybe that was it.

Sara 53:26

i That's the only that's the only reason I can think of given that the character, history and background and profession is so exactly the same.

Lilly 53:38

You know, whose name doesn't change?

Sara 53:42

Because they don't have one? Well, he has a title.

Lilly 53:46

The librarian.

Sara 53:49

librarian is wonderful. The librarian is also a favorite character of mine.

Lilly 53:54

He's incredible. So in during the shenanigans in the first two books, there's a lot of chaos happening. And at one point, the librarian at the unseen university gets turned into an orangutan. And the first book is the first one. Yeah, this happens in the first book. They're the same. They're just one book in my head.

Sara 54:17

I actually I honestly thought for the longest time that it happened in the book that I think is next in the series. And so when we were when we were rereading this, or when we were rereading color of magic. I was a little bit astonished to find that the librarian undergoes that change then,

Lilly 54:37

from the very beginning. And the librarian are the only two constants, not taxes, not taxes library is much better.

Sara 54:45

The librarian is much better. And

Lilly 54:49

in this book he's introduced, they don't go into how it happens. You could read the color of magic if you want to find out but they do say that Something like any attempts to change him back have been thwarted because the librarian much prefers it this way, which is just so excellent.

Sara 55:12

The librarian is an excellent I don't have anything to add, except that the librarian has an excellent character.

Lilly 55:16

He only says UHC. But everyone can understand exactly what he means, which is so charming. And he likes having extra long arms because he can reach the books better.

Sara 55:28

It's very SharePoint, he's the barbarian

Lilly 55:32

that it was just a crying shame that we didn't bring him up earlier when this actually happened to him. But now we're actually seeing him as the custodian of these incredibly dangerous, magical Tomes. And he's just a happy little orangutan swinging around eating bananas. He's very sweet. So our only common characters through all of Discworld are the librarian. And of course, as we mentioned before, death, who has an excellent quote at the beginning, that you pulled out that I think would be really nice. Nice, nice thing to end this on.

Sara 56:16

Yeah. So death has come for this wizard who kicks off all of the the events of this book, and he's realized too late. That ask is a girl. And so he's left his magic to a girl and not an eighth son of an eighth son as he thought he was. And he says that she's going to have a lot of problems. Death response, that's what life is all about. So I'm told, I wouldn't know of course,

Lilly 56:43

you tell them death. You tell them. No, sir. I remember an avalanche of tweets a little while ago about this. Was a series of letters that were published, I believe, or was it an autobiography?

Sara 57:04

No, it's It's a collected letters. Yeah. So about six months ago? No. I say six months ago, like it's still December.

57:14

Illusion time is an illusion.

Sara 57:16

About nine months ago, I was reading a book of collected letters by Freya Stark over the rim of the world. And we've mentioned first or I've mentioned Freya Stark in earlier podcasts. And I don't want to go into too much depth about her because, a it's been nine months since I've read this book of letters. And B, I haven't actually read any of her works besides these letters, so I feel like I can't speak. I feel like I would be doing her a disservice to to talk too much about her. But

Lilly 57:50

But why do I care about her letters?

Sara 57:51

But why do you care about your letters? Yes. But she is a really interesting character. So a character I say she's a really interesting person and she's a person. Yeah, she is a person despite the name sounding like the love child of Tony Stark and Loki. That's funny,

Lilly 58:07

because I was gonna say she sounds like a Game of Thrones character. That to forgotten Starchild

Sara 58:13

that too, yeah. But so she was an Anglo Italian explorer, who was born in 1893, died in 1993. So she got to the ripe old age of 100. This taught herself Latin as a child, she went to university to study language at the age of 30, because she decided that she didn't want to be a flower farmer anymore.

Lilly 58:35

That's a job. It was then it sounds much more fun than I suspected actually was,

Sara 58:43

I think I think it was very hard and not particularly moneymaking.

Lilly 58:48

I'm just imagining someone like skipping through rows of flowers, smelling them, but I doubt that's actually what the job entailed.

Sara 58:54

Don't think it did. So she went back to university to study language or went back she went to university to study language 30 And she decided to study Arabic and Persian and she was one of the first people really to explore the Middle East without any other like, just by herself and with the local help of the locals, like without any big Western group of explorers. So fascinating character person.

Lilly 59:22

She does sound like an adventure novel character.

Sara 59:24

She does she really does. Yeah. But but her letters I enjoyed both for the content because she had this really interesting life and for her writing, which I thought was very poetic and lovely. One of the tweets, or one of the quotes that I pulled out for this barrage of tweets back in June was I am on my way back to Famagusta and the sea for a week before trying to get away from the island with a eight small bags. B A new fur coat of Cypress coats see a barrel of sherry D 12. Cases of one In, ie, a case of olive oil and possibly cheese, which that's just my kind of person.

Lilly 1:00:08

I like her priorities. Yeah.

Sara 1:00:11

Those are the kinds of souvenirs and the quantity that I can imagine myself going for.

Lilly 1:00:17

Whenever that like getting to know you question gets asked of what person from history would you like to have dinner with? I feel like she should be everyone's top answer.

Sara 1:00:27

She really should. I mean, she was such an interesting person. And like, she says, in another letter, a woman asked if I didn't think it time for us to give up using our lipsticks, but I mean to be killed if it comes to that with my face in proper order. Because she was in Baghdad when there was a coup or something. So or something. So like she was in 1941, she was whereas I marked the page for Iraqi Colonel staged a coup in Baghdad and beseech the embassy. So the British Embassy in Baghdad was besieged and things were kind of dangerous. It sounds like that is the impression I get Yes. Yeah. From from what she wrote in her letters. But she had her priorities. She also said something about the US that I think is still relevant. I think the underlying cause is that this country does most of its thinking through business brands. And your loss is my gain is the basis, which is not necessarily I mean, especially today is not necessarily it's something that you think yes, obviously. But to have come to that conclusion in 1943, and have it still ring true in 2021 is just I think that she was a perceptive woman,

Lilly 1:01:45

it sounds like it. Well, maybe we'll have to read one of her actual works. For this podcast,

Sara 1:01:51

I really want to read her account of her travels through the ALMA Valley, which is the valley of the assassins in Iran. I haven't yet but it is it is on my TBR list.

Lilly 1:02:00

Let's put it on the calendar. Three years from now, however long

Sara 1:02:07

I think I think that probably would be something that we would have to read in pieces because it would be denser than a lot of our normal reading, but it would be fun to discuss.

Lilly 1:02:16

Maybe, maybe I smell a segment coming on.

Sara 1:02:20

Yeah. Fred Stark checking. A little less

Lilly 1:02:24

lighthearted than journey to the center of this world. But that's okay. We have depth.

Sara 1:02:29

We do have depth I would be down. She is not entirely unproblematic. You know, as expected from someone who was born in 1893 we can acknowledge that Yeah, I think in in general, she just had a fascinating life and a way with words that makes her well worth reading even now.

Lilly 1:02:48

I look forward to it.

Sara 1:02:53

So you sent me a text earlier today, Lily? Because you had a words are weird.

Lilly 1:03:00

Proposals. All these words are so extremely weird. Sarah,

Sara 1:03:04

what are you? What are your weird words?

Lilly 1:03:06

I saw a catering van. And I cannot for the life of me remember the company? Because their tagline was? Scratch made food.

Sara 1:03:18

That just does not sound right.

Lilly 1:03:22

That's wrong. It is definitely. Yeah. That's That's weird. I can't describe why it's wrong. But it's definitely not correct. I

Sara 1:03:31

mean, like, food made from scratch. Yes. Okay. That's legitimate.

Lilly 1:03:37

That's a phrase that's a thing.

Sara 1:03:38

Yes. scratch scratch made foods?

Lilly 1:03:42

No, no, I did Google. The phrase made from scratch. And it sounds like we are linguistically Correct. Not just spiritually Correct.

Sara 1:03:56

I always like to be correct on multiple levels. Yes.

Lilly 1:03:59

Apparently it's from something in sports, where they scratch a line in the dirt for where you start or where the boundaries are. So made from scratch is made from the very beginning. So the from is a very important word in that linguistic construction. It is not scratch made, it is made from scratch. That is scratch is not how you are making it. It's where you started. That's important.

Sara 1:04:31

It's not the same. It was like

Lilly 1:04:33

when you get food stuck in your teeth, and it just bothers you so much. But it was those words in my head. It was bad words stuck in my head all day and I had to talk about it because what were they thinking someone someone signed off on that?

1:04:51

They made a choice.

Lilly 1:04:53

They made the wrong one.

Sara 1:04:56

They did make the wrong one.

Lilly 1:05:01

Thank you for listening to this episode of fiction fans. You can get in touch with us

Sara 1:05:05

on Instagram and Twitter at at fiction fans pod or shoot us an email at fiction fans pod@gmail.com If you've enjoyed

Lilly 1:05:14

this episode, please don't forget to give us a rating or maybe even a review on Apple podcasts or follow us on Spotify.

Sara 1:05:24

A great 24 hours bye Bye