Good Omens & The Conjuring of Zoth Avarex

Episode 5

Release Date: 3/31/2021

Your hosts explore the highs and lows of “My Year of Rest and Relaxation” by Ottessa Moshfegh and get into the nitty gritty of the Good Omens minseries adaptation. They also discuss "The Conjuring of Zoth Avarex" by KRR Lockhaven and briefly visit the Pet Peeve Corner.

Music provided by Audio Library Plus: “Travel With Us” by Vendredi; “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” by Amarià;

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:03

Hello and welcome to fiction fans, a podcast where we read books and other words to let's start off on a on a positive note.

Sara 00:12

Are we are we not going to introduce ourselves?

Lilly 00:14

Oh, yes, we should probably do that.

Sara 00:16

Maybe you should do that.

Lilly 00:17

What is your name?

Sara 00:19

I'm Sarah.

Lilly 00:20

I will Lily.

Sara 00:24

Okay, positive things.

Lilly 00:25

Yeah, just you know, this little ray of sunshine.

Sara 00:29

My positive thing is that I bought a another lime tree. I don't know where it's going to go. And I don't need another lime tree.

Lilly 00:41

But everyone needs another lime tree.

Sara 00:43

This makes three. I think I have like 10 citrus trees. Okay, that's a lot. Yeah. One of them is not producing. I grew. It's a lemon that I grew from seed. And so that may or may not ever produce but the others will in theory,

Lilly 01:00

do you make also are they too young for fruit yet?

Sara 01:03

Most of them I have one mature orange tree and two mature lemons that were on the property when I moved in. They're planted by my grandfather, actually.

Lilly 01:13

Oh, that's lovely. Yes. You're making me dream of lemonade. It's not fair.

Sara 01:18

I make a pretty mean lemonade with my Meyer lemons. Fabulous. Good things for you this week. Well,

Lilly 01:27

technically not yet. But by the time this episode is out, I will be seeing my parents for the first time in a year and a half. Excited. I'm really excited. If that's way too long. They are fully vaccinated. So they're driving up to see to see us and I cannot wait. Tell them hello for me. I want mean, hello. Right. And I know my mom listens to the podcast. So hi, mom. All right. That yeah, that's my, um, I'm hyped. It's gonna be nice. Understandable. Well, that's sort of in the future. But for now, what are you drinking tonight? Sara?

Sara 02:07

I am drinking the remains of my box of wine. It is the same box of wine because I don't actually drink wine all that quickly. I drink other things in between. But yes, what about you?

Lilly 02:21

I am also drinking a a same box of wine. It is not the same box of wine because I have multiple people drinking it in this household. And also some good old storebrand seltzer water, which is I was gonna say I drink like water, but I guess that's self explanatory. Yeah,

Sara 02:45

I mean, I'm not mentioning the glass of water that I have here. But I do have water to

Lilly 02:52

tap water doesn't need to be mentioned.

Sara 02:56

It's California tap water is good tap

Lilly 02:58

water. So Sara, other than what we already plan on talking about in our episode tonight. Have you read anything good lately?

Sara 03:06

I have actually I read a couple of books, one of which was vultures by Luke tarzi, I'm sorry, if I'm mispronouncing your name. There should be a we should have a standard disclaimer.

Lilly 03:16

We should have a recording before our introductions that just goes repeat our pronunciations at your own risk.

Sara 03:24

I like that we should. Yeah, so I read that, which was very good. It's bleaker than I normally read. But I quite liked it. Despite that, I would have liked to see the characters and the like motivations fleshed out a little bit more. I feel like the book would have benefited from another 50 or 100 pages. How long is it? Um, I want to say it was like 300 pages or so I don't actually, I don't actually recall the page length. But that's how it felt. But despite that, it was still very good. I think the second book is going to be coming out at some point in the near future next year. It's the second book is coming out at some point. And I will be reading it because I enjoyed vultures. Despite that, that one little minor quibble.

Lilly 04:11

Well, wanting more is not actually a complaint, right.

Sara 04:18

This was so good that I wanted to I wanted more of

Lilly 04:20

it. So your your complaint is that you wish the book was longer, which like okay, yes, that can be a complaint, but I feel like in this case, it was just, yeah, it was not not that bad.

Sara 04:33

Yeah, agreed. And then the other thing that I am actually in the middle of reading is Sarah finos lament by Sarah torn and I have to say that I have never been as pulled into a book in the first 10 pages, as I was with us like it was. I mean, it's a it's a great book, but it was an incredible start to the to the novel. I don't have an easily accessible quote, certainly not from the beginning, but I will say that it starts off with a lot of cannibalism. But it was intriguing cannibalism.

Lilly 05:05

I mean, that's great. And that wasn't what I thought I wanted, but apparently.

Sara 05:12

No, it doesn't really, really well. I'm about halfway through and I am looking forward to a finishing the book and be reading the next one when it comes out. Excellent. Yeah. Have you read anything unrelated to the podcast?

Lilly 05:25

I have not, uh, not novels. But the other thing that I read this week, was an article from Vice, written in fall 29th are published in fall 2019. Relevant only because it talks about traveling. And as we all know, that's a thing of the past. It's called, I accidentally uncovered a nationwide scam on Airbnb by Ali Conte.

Sara 05:52

Oh, my,

Lilly 05:53

I feel like, well, I've used Airbnb only a few times, I think you you've used it a few times. I've used

Sara 06:00

it a handful of times, I generally go for a hotel instead. Because I there's so much uncertainty with Airbnb. And that's

Lilly 06:07

kind of exactly what this article is about.

Sara 06:11

So do tell.

Lilly 06:13

It's basically a is conspiracy too dramatic of a word, where companies will pretend to be a couple. First of all, like that's the first part is you think you're renting a place from just like a cute couple. And then it turns out this, this is a real estate agency, or real estate startup that has no no one by that name ever existed. And they post pictures of this gorgeous apartment and 10 minutes before you're supposed to check in. They call you and say I'm so sorry. Like the people before you flush something down the toilet, the plumbing is completely messed up. Can we please put you in one of our other units. It's bigger. You know, it's technically an upgrade, like we're so sorry for the inconvenience. And then where they actually end up putting you is a complete shithole. So the author of this article, had this happen to her. And then she started contacting people who wrote negative reviews about the same unit that she was supposed to have rented. So other people who fell for this exact same scam fell for doesn't even make sense because like,

Sara 07:22

I mean, if you're not expecting it, like I feel like falling for implies some level of awareness that there may be a scam.

Lilly 07:28

Yeah, like it like there was nothing to fall for. They just thought they were renting something off of AB Airbnb. Right. One of the descriptions is there was blood in the bathroom sink, the bare mattress had red and yellow stains on it pleasant. Yeah, completely miserable. And, you know, digging deeper, it turned out that three or four, quote unquote couples had the same apartment as the listing. But the pictures were from different angles, and they changed the paintings on the walls. That looked like a different unit. Right? Right. And they were all running the same scam, like get people to pay for this price for this nice place. Uh huh. And then shuffle them off into one of your crappy places instead. That is wild. That is wild. But then also, the systemic nature of the scam is also wild. Because Airbnb doesn't care at all.

Sara 08:25

Hmm, you would think that they would do more about something so blatant.

Lilly 08:30

As long as they can justify not a full refund, they still get their money. So if you spend even one night in this place, because you're a traveler, and you're tired, and you're in a city, you don't know. So you think, okay,

Sara 08:44

whatever. And you're checking in late at night.

Lilly 08:47

Yeah. If you even spend one night, you only get a partial refund. That is, wow, that's awful. So anyway, it's this whole thing. It was fascinating. I have never had an experience like that on Airbnb, as a caveat, like that's never happened to me.

Sara 09:07

I haven't had an experience quite like that. But I did have an experience with slightly misleading images were in the angles that the photos of the property were taken from, for the bathroom in the bedroom, implied that they were two different rooms, and they were not.

09:29

God it was

Sara 09:30

It was wild. The bed it was literally like it was like if it had just been a bathroom. It would have been a decent size but the bed was there. And then about two feet away was the shower and the toilet. There was no sort of door. There was no no way to separate out those two spaces whatsoever.

Lilly 09:52

Not even like one of those little folding screens.

Sara 09:55

Nope, there was no shower curtain. There was no screen. It was you it was an adventure. My God,

Lilly 10:03

what city was this? This was London. Oh my goodness.

Sara 10:06

Yeah, it was it was pretty crazy.

Lilly 10:10

That's that's the thing, right? Like, what do you do? You're presumably traveling. So you don't have a lot of resources. You just suck it up generally.

Sara 10:20

I mean, the place was nice enough otherwise, like it wasn't.

Lilly 10:24

As long as you're staying alone, I could live with that.

Sara 10:28

I was, I was with a friend. It was every time she had to go pee in the middle of the night, like she had to clean, because I had the bed because I had paid for the Airbnb, like she had decided to come along to this trip sort of last minute. And I said, Well, I have this Airbnb, I won't charge you for staying there. Because I don't think that it has a second like bed for you. So you might have to sleep on the floor, it had a pull out couch. That was fine. But

Lilly 10:57

there was space for a couch, but not space for a wall.

Sara 11:01

I mean, there was the couch was in a separate room. It was It was wild. It was also clearly managed by a real estate company to which I had not realized.

Lilly 11:21

Well, more recently, I am under the impression that you are continuing to read the Wheel of Time, I am continuing

Sara 11:28

with my Wheel of Time journey. I'm about halfway through book 11 Knife of Dreams now, and I have some thoughts. First off, I want to say that nothing has really happened. Well, in the first like 300 pages of this book, nothing really happens. But I'm kind of okay with it, because it's developing the relationship between Matt and his lady love. So it doesn't like it's character development, even if it's basically just them traveling in a caravan for 300 pages. So it's still better than parent in book 10. I'm just saying it better than parents. But there is one thing that has happened in this time period that I was really not crazy about which is Matt spanking and i said i i said i Big like the female magic users. I don't know you had said at one point that you're going to look up some Wheel of Time summaries. I don't know if you actually ever did.

Lilly 12:31

I did not. I said I do for the context.

Sara 12:36

I said I are the women magic users. And

Lilly 12:41

are you not bothering with a name? Just because it's not super relevant? Or does this character not be get a name in the book?

Sara 12:51

No, this this character does have a name. Okay.

Lilly 12:53

That's I just that changes my opinion. Yeah. Okay, she

Sara 12:58

does have a name.

Lilly 13:00

I don't care. I just wanted it to have the happen.

Sara 13:03

Yeah, no, she does. She does have a name because she has been present for longer than just this one scene. Okay, but her name is not really relevant for the point that I want to bring up, which is that the spanking is really one of the few ways and a couple of carries a couple of the male characters have spanked some of the female characters in the books leading up to this adults. Adults. Excuse me, or or like I mean, maybe young adult, uh, you know, like, I actually don't know how old they are. I think they're like 18 or 19. But,

Lilly 13:38

but as, like sincere punishment.

Sara 13:42

Yes. As sincere punishment, and oh, no, this is one of the few ways I think in general, the gender dynamics are pretty progressive. I think that the women have a lot of power in this series, and a lot of autonomy. But this one instance, is so just gross. I mean, like, all of this, all of the spanking, the spanking when it occurs is just really, really,

Lilly 14:15

I honestly wish it was a fetish thing, because that is more justifiable to me. Yeah.

Sara 14:21

I mean, I'm fine with fetish spanking, like if it's between two consenting adults, whatever. But this was a punishment thing. And the woman very clearly does not want it. And it's just like, and she starts cursing and yelping. There's a quote. He was far from weak practice with a bow and quarter staff gave you strong arms. And like, he spanks her for basically a whole page. Well, no, maybe it's like, two thirds image.

Lilly 14:55

So it is a fetish thing. He's just not admitting it. He wanted to

Sara 14:58

make sure he left and then Question. I'm sorry, no

Lilly 15:02

author is describing something like that for so long if they aren't into it.

Sara 15:08

You might I mean, you might be right. I have no idea what Robert Jordan's sexual inclinations were,

Lilly 15:15

if he didn't want me to think that he shouldn't have written that section.

Sara 15:19

You Yeah. But it's it's just I mean, it's it Mars and otherwise good book. So yeah, I, I was not, I was not pleased when I read that. I did not like it whatsoever.

Lilly 15:33

I want to make an outrageous statement about spanking as a punishment between two equals, but I can't because it's not there. Like there is no such thing as punishment between equals consequences. Yes, of course. But like punishment as a concept, is something that you inflict upon someone because you have power over them. And just by virtue of that, the relationship dynamic between those characters is just so off kilter. Just because that happened.

Sara 16:06

The use of spanking in this in the series is really it is one of the few ways in which this book seems incredibly, incredibly dated,

Lilly 16:18

is dated even the right word. I don't know. Okay. I

Sara 16:22

don't know if a date is really the right word. But it it's one of the few ways in which this book seems not modern.

Lilly 16:29

To me, no data, just I'm just, I just find it so hard to believe that that is a legitimate action. Well, okay. Again, to clarify, like I'm talking about thinking as a punishment, not as fun bedroom time. That's a completely different thing, right. Yeah. Like,

Sara 16:46

I used to, like, I think I said, If this had been an incident, like a bedroom incident between two consenting adults, totally okay with that, like, I don't mind reading that. That wouldn't make me uncomfortable. But

Lilly 16:58

yeah, just as, as a punishment tool, I mean, corporal punishment period, but then the added on just like humiliation of spanking

Sara 17:10

in front of an audience to that. Okay.

Lilly 17:13

No, I take it all back. This is def, I'm, you cannot convince me that this is not a fetish that Robert Jordan has? No, there is no argument that exists.

Sara 17:24

I mean, it's not it's not premeditated by the characters

Lilly 17:27

by the character.

Sara 17:29

Yes, obviously, I

Lilly 17:30

am judging the author. I'm sorry. But you've right said something about you.

Sara 17:39

Those are my thoughts on the spanking in this book.

Lilly 17:42

Oh, my God. Okay, what else you got for me lay it off.

Sara 17:46

So now we are verging into spoiler territory.

Lilly 17:51

To avoid spoilers for the Wheel of Time, skip to 1950.

Sara 18:02

So two things. One is that Elena is pregnant, and her pregnancy mood swings, I have absolutely zero interest in I do not want to read about her being pregnant, and how or she swings from, you know, up to down, whatever. Like the things that are going on around her and that she's participating in are really interesting. But it's all just ruined by the fact that she keeps focusing on how mood swings, she is so frustrating. And then the other thing is that we finally get confirmation that Maureen is alive. And to give you a little bit of context. Maureen ostensively dies in book five, which came out in 1993. This is book 11. And came out in 2005, I believe. Wow. So I think that and this revelation for me was a little spoiled by the fact that more rain is such a beloved character, that when she died, I was like anyone who gets this much attention in a series from the fans not from the text. Anyone who gets this much attention in the series in an 11 book, or 11 book in a 14 book series. Like they can't just die in book five. Like that's just not a thing, right? Yeah, like she's gonna come back somehow. The only question is when, right? So for someone who was reading this, as it came out before the internet was such a thing, that must have just been a massive, massive shock. And I'm really sad that I didn't get to experience that because I think it would have been amazing. So Lily, you read a book that I did not read, but we're still going to talk about

Lilly 19:59

it. just realized I never looked up how to pronounce the author's name?

Sara 20:04

Oh, no, it's a good thing that we have our disclaimer that we don't know how to pronounce names

Lilly 20:09

one second. If she if her Wikipedia article does not have a pronunciation, then I'm just going to try. Try my best.

Sara 20:18

That's all you can do. Yes,

Lilly 20:20

I read, I reread actually, my year of rest and relaxation by Oh, Tessa Mushfiq Oh, man, this book. It, it's hard to Cat well, you can capture this book in words, because it's a book and it has words. But trying to summarize, it was so difficult for me. So I think at the core of it is for some books, the question, what is this book about? Is different from what happens in this book? That's fair. And I think that is very applicable for this book. At its core, I mean, I could I could sum up this book, I could sum up what happens in this book in a sentence? What would that sentence be? Young woman experiences mental health crisis? That's it. That's, that's the whole books. But if you ask what this book is about, at its core, this book is a character study of the main character, who never actually gets a name, which I think is a fun device. When used well, just saying, this book is written in first person. And we all know

Sara 21:35

that's not usually not. But this

Lilly 21:37

book utilizes it. So well. The main character, as I said, is a young woman going through a mental health crisis. And we are seeing these events. Through her perspective, kind of at the time, it's sort of written in, it's written in past tense, she is recalling these events. But these are events that she experienced high out of her mind on prescription medication.

Sara 22:07

She, so there's there's some unreliability there, he's

Lilly 22:10

extremely unreliable. And that is where I don't think I actually said this up top. It's a hilarious book, I realized all of the words I've just used to describe it sound extremely dark.

Sara 22:24

It does not from what you have said, it does not sound like there is much clarity there. I gotta say,

Lilly 22:30

it's that disconnect between how the narrator is interpreting events with how the reader interprets them, as they are told, for example, the main character often describes herself as effortlessly gorgeous. And then in the same paragraph, talks about how once she went down to the corner store, I think she says bodega, because she's from New York, but I'm not. So I refuse. She goes down to the corner store, and the employees say, Oh, you have something on your face. And she just is like, whatever. Like, go away, don't talk to me. And then she gets home and realizes that her entire chin was covered in toothpaste crust. Oh, boy. And that's the same paragraph where she refers to Riva her only friend. She's just so jealous of me because she could never be as pretty as me. And you have to say in that voice when you're repeating it, because that's like,

Sara 23:35

that's how it that is. That is clearly the implication there.

Lilly 23:38

Yeah. But that's like, that's the humor of the book, because she says that, and you're just going. Sure. And she's really not. I mean, as that quote, that was almost a direct quote. I mean, I was like, making fun of it. But she says pretty much that exact same thing several times in the book. She has a very bad friend. She's a very unlikable character. But as I said, this is a character study. As you're reading this book, you, you slowly sort of discover why she is the way she is, because the main events are her year of rest and relaxation, which is how she refers to the year where she takes enough prescription medication to sleep 20 hours a day, and then she's mad that she has to be awake for four of them. Like her goal, she says several times is I just want to sleep and if that's not depression, I don't know what is.

Sara 24:36

It sounds like an accurate depiction of depression although I will say that I would like to sleep 20 hours just because I want more sleep not because I'm particularly depressed.

Lilly 24:46

But that's the like, that's why it's such a it really hits that balance. And you don't exactly catch on to how bleak Her situation is right away.

Sara 24:59

So Oh, things are I mean, well, she's doing

Lilly 25:03

fine. That's okay. That's another thing sort of, well, she's not doing fine. Clearly, I should say like, she's clearly not doing fine. She's not doing fine. But part of me feels like this book is sort of poking fun at that young adult novel trope that I cannot stand. Which is, do you ever read those books that are about high schoolers being rich in New York City with no supervision?

Sara 25:31

Not really know,

Lilly 25:32

that exists? And sure it does. I that like, that's definitely a thing that shows up in young adult novels. When I when I read them, all I could think of is, Where are your parents? But this novel is sort of the what would that actually look like? The main character is in her late 20s. Because of course, no high schooler. Like, this makes no sense if you haven't read those books that have that setting. But I promise they exist in they're very frustrating.

Sara 26:06

I mean, I believe you. Yeah. But

Lilly 26:09

the main character here is in her late 20s. The book takes place when she is 28. But you see, like she, she gives like background information as well. So you sort of see like her whole, like college through 20s life. And both of her parents pass away while she is in college. So she's living off of inheritance. She has enough inheritance that and then she gets fired from her job. So she has unemployment and inheritance so she can just live perpetually in New York, in New York, well, she she buys a condo, like she owns her place.

Sara 26:47

Oh my like, she's

Lilly 26:48

like, she's rich. Yeah, she's rich in New York with no supervision. And so she finds a completely unethical psychiatrist to prescribe her far too many medications. Hold on, I should find at least one quote, I. So I haven't, I thought I was going to spoiler block some of this. But none of this is actually like, there are things that I can spoil in this book. But to this point, even though I'm sort of giving information that you don't have from page one, this is still really just the concept of the novel, I would like to say.

Sara 27:25

So I feel like because it's, as you've described it to me thus far, because it's such a character study, this doesn't necessarily feel like you've given away anything that would affect enjoyment of the plot. Not at all. Yeah, this is all still prep, like,

Lilly 27:45

it is very well done, the way that the information is delivered to you through the main character's experiences, her memories, and then also her trying to piece together what she did during a drug induced blackout, which happens to her many times. That being said, they're definitely like things do happen in this book. I'm not gonna get into it. Because I like I don't want to give any spoilers because it's a very book. But I'm telling you a lot of information. And this is all from the first 25%, I guess is what I'm, I'm still giving you the premise. Yeah, that makes sense. A distilled and inelegant version of the premise was if you actually read the book, will be a much more enjoyable experience,

Sara 28:29

the book does it better,

Lilly 28:30

it doesn't much better, because it has 200 pages to get through this part. Instead of me just excitedly rambling about it. So I have two quotes that are probably both far too long. But we can decide that after I read them, but I would like to her psychiatrist is the villain in this book, not in the book, but in my opinion, she loves her psychiatrist,

Sara 28:59

because because of how the psychiatrist is giving her all of these drugs that she probably shouldn't be taking.

Lilly 29:05

Yeah. She she tells us, her psychiatrist that she is has insomnia. And so her psychiatrists just writes her, like, booklets of prescriptions. I am not exaggerating.

Sara 29:20

That's someone who probably shouldn't get their license revoked.

Lilly 29:23

Yes. But you read some of the things that she tells her. And it's like this, this young woman is clearly as I said, going through a mental health crisis, like she, she is self harming with these pharmaceuticals. And her psychiatrist just like does not care at all. So in my mind, she's the villain because she enables the main character to do this to herself. Right. And I'm gonna read you now, from her psychiatrist. From her first meeting. The biggest threats to brains nowadays are all the microwave ovens, Dr. Tuttle explained on the phone that night microwaves radio waves. Now there are cell phone towers blasting us with who knows what kind of frequencies. But that's not my science ideal and treating mental illness. Do you work for the police? She asked me. No, I work for an art dealer at a gallery in Chelsea. Are you FBI? No, CIA? No. Why? I just have to ask these questions. Are you DEA, FDA and ICB and HCA? Are you a private investigator hired by any private or governmental entity? Do you work for a medical insurance company? Are you a drug dealer? Drug addict? Are you a clinician, a med student getting pills for an abusive boyfriend or employer? NASA? I think I have insomnia. That's my main issue.

Sara 30:51

Okay, two things. Two things. One of my parents had turtles, tortoises that were named Mr. And Mrs. Tuttle. So that's completely unrelated to everything, except for the fact that the doctor is named Dr. Tuttle. And to that doctor clearly has issues of their own.

Lilly 31:11

Oh, she does. So that was sort of an example of her extremely negligent psychiatrist.

Sara 31:19

I mean, I'm not. I feel like that's not just negligent, but delusional.

Lilly 31:25

It's actually an interesting question. Does the psychiatrist know that she's doing something wrong? I'm not actually sure. Because like you said, like she's, she clearly has her own stuff going on, clearly. And does she know that she is just enabling rich kids to get drugs so that she can make money? Or does she like actually believe she's helping these people? I'm not sure.

Sara 31:49

It's fun. There's also the the question of if she knew would she care?

Lilly 31:54

Right. I actually pulled out a lot of quotes from this book. But I think the other one that sort of highlights the way in which the main character is improperly coping with everything that life has thrown at her. She is talking about, sort of the first time she gets home with all of the drugs that she has been prescribed, the side effects and warnings on the internet were discouraging, and anxieties over them amplified the volume of my thoughts, which was the exact opposite of what I hoped the pills would do. So I filled prescriptions for things like neuro peroxan mix of fin fin, valves ignore and silence your, and I threw them into the mix now and then, but I mostly took sleeping aids in large doses and supplemented them with second halls or nembutsu. Halls when I was irritable volumes or libre items when I suspected that I was sad, and placid hills or knock texts or Mill Towns when I suspected I was lonely, a lot of drugs. I probably pronounced half of them wrong. And I know I stumbled over them. But like every page in this book is just like a new pharmaceutical that she is just tossing back like candy. She will list the things she ate in a day and include like pills, because that's just what she's eating. She's eating two cups of coffee, and ice cream, like chiseled out from the bottom of the freezer at the corner store. And like a handful of Ambien and also some named utiles. That's what she ate a healthy diet. Like I said, she's like,

Sara 33:33

clearly struggling. Yeah, I know that you said that this was humorous, but it just sounds incredibly, incredibly bleak to me. It sounds so depressing.

Lilly 33:43

It's definitely dark humor. It's in many ways a somber book. But the humor, it's humorous in its

Sara 33:51

delivery. It sounds like a very good book that I would never want to read. Oh, yeah, you

Lilly 33:57

would hate this.

Sara 33:58

I hate this book.

Lilly 34:01

I guess I can compare this to you ever get in one of those moods where you want to put on angry music and just like, jam out to it like this is that book. We're using one of those moods where you just want to listen to sad music or angry music. I don't know. It's it's very atmospheric.

Sara 34:22

See? That makes that makes sense. Because I do get in moods where I want to listen to angry music or sad music, but it still is not. I would I would never, ever want to read this book. I just can't get past that fact.

Lilly 34:36

But it's that kind of expiring.

Sara 34:39

Yeah, yeah.

Lilly 34:45

I shouldn't time Sarah.

Sara 34:46

Yeah. I didn't actually

Lilly 34:49

have time to reread good omens.

Sara 34:52

You didn't know.

Lilly 34:56

I have read it several times. I can still talk about

Sara 35:00

If that's very true,

Lilly 35:03

but I feel like I should just say up top. Haven't read it in a little while.

Sara 35:08

You know, I was kind of when we had to postpone recording a day. I did kind of wonder if it was because you haven't read it yet. That was not why, Michelle? Yeah. I mean, you said that it was internet issues, but I did secretly wonder if part of it was

Lilly 35:26

no, I would never postpone the podcast because I haven't read something. Well, I'll just I will just be honest, and say, Yeah, I didn't have time to read it.

Sara 35:37

You also you also had to read what extra books that I didn't have to read for. For this episode. So well, because

Lilly 35:43

you're reading we'll have time like it evens out. I did reread it when the show came out, which was not that long ago.

Sara 35:50

2019 Yeah. I actually, by chance, I was at the show premiere in London.

Lilly 35:59

Fancy fan.

Sara 36:02

I honestly, I think that's one of the coolest things that I've ever done in my life. It was it was completely by chance. I was in London for something unrelated.

Lilly 36:10

Were you staying in an air b&b that had a bedroom in the bathroom?

Sara 36:15

This was not that Airbnb. But, so I landed in London on Saturday or Sunday morning or something like that. And like, I got on the train, and Heathrow Express into London proper. And I was checking Twitter as one does. And I saw that Neil Gaiman had tweeted like 15 minutes ago, he had tweeted, tickets are available for the premiere on Tuesday. The first come first serve. They're free. So I was like, Heck, yes. I'm gonna try to get myself a ticket. That's so fun. It was so cool. It was so cool.

Lilly 36:58

Well now feel like a good time to mention what the hell Good Omens is? Yes. Good Omens is a book, written collaboratively by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. About the apocalypse and sort of how that would shake out in a mostly modern day.

Sara 37:19

In an in a 90s, modern

Lilly 37:21

in a contemporary day,

Sara 37:24

contemporary day, before we dive too deep into characters and all of that good stuff. I do want to bring up the fact that well, obviously Terry Pratchett is no longer with us. But so the show got made, in part because Neil Gaiman really wanted to do this one last thing for Terry even though he was gone. And something that I found incredibly moving was that in the theater, when we were all watching it, there was a seat right in the middle of the front row with Terry's hat and a bag of popcorn. Because he had said that he wouldn't believe that it was actually happening until he was sitting in a theater. Like he wouldn't believe that any adaptation was happening had happened until he was sitting in a theater with a bag of popcorn watching it on screen. That is heartbreaking. And I like when Gaiman said that like on stage, I started bawling like I was tearing up because it just the love that was there.

Lilly 38:28

He's strikes me as such a good guy that we don't have any seat. Nothing has come out recently, right? Like I've given up on Joss Whedon. But Neil Gaiman is still good, right? I'm googling him. As far

Sara 38:40

as, as far as I know, he hasn't done anything particularly

Lilly 38:43

problematic, except for what we're gonna complain about in this book.

Sara 38:49

We're gonna complain about in this book. But some of the things that were complaining about were fixed in the show adaptation. So I think, I think he has learned and grown from when the book came out.

Lilly 39:02

That's something that I actually really love about. Neil Gaiman is his very close work on adaptations. I mean, he wrote the screenplay for Star Dust, you know, like, he, like he's the one who adapted it. He clearly understands how mediums are different, how media is different between books and movies, etc. And also adapting for the times.

Sara 39:32

I think it's because he has such a storied career. I mean, he's done comics. He's done wasn't

Lilly 39:37

a novelist to begin with.

Sara 39:39

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So he just has a good understanding of how to move as you said, from from medium to medium

Lilly 39:48

and I just, I just think, not that Neil Gaiman needs more praise. He really doesn't. He really does it, but he can have this particular one. He like truly understands adaptations at their core, and will start us there's a whole other conversation that we're not going to get into. But,

Sara 40:10

but we should at some point. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Lilly 40:13

I don't remember off the top of my head, how involved he was with the good omens adaptation. So he

Sara 40:19

he was actually quite involved, surprisingly at all, because he's a great screenwriter. Yeah. So he wrote all of the scripts for, it's a six episode miniseries, and he wrote all of the scripts, but he was so involved, specifically, because he was doing it as like Terry's last request. Like Terry Pratchett was dying. He called gaming up and he said, I want like this to happen. And so Gavin made it happen.

Lilly 40:48

And did he ever did he ever? Before we dive too deep into the discussion of this Book and TV show? Would you just sort of give our audience a really quick like, what the heck happens?

Sara 41:06

So 11 years ago, the Antichrist is delivered to a hospital, because the forces of forces of Hell have decided that it's time to bring about Armageddon. And through a comedy of errors, instead of going to the American Cultural Attache, he actually ends up leaving the hospital. I mean, it was a little baby, obviously, leaving the hospital with a British family in a in a quaint British English town.

Lilly 41:38

So the the main characters are ostensibly this angel and this demon, who don't actually want Armageddon to happen.

Sara 41:48

I was I was getting I was participating. You asked me for the summary, but the bulk of the of the action takes place in the last seven days before the earth ends. So they don't have much time. And I think, do you think that's a good summary?

Lilly 42:10

I think we should leave it there. Because yeah, this is such a fun book. And if you haven't read it, you absolutely should.

Sara 42:18

It is it is well worth it. The book came out in 1990. It was published on May 10, of 1990. So there are parts of it that are a little dated.

Lilly 42:29

We have mentioned before how Terry Pratchett's work is so poignant, with its social commentary. And that does carry through to Good Omens in some regards, but not always. Would you say?

Sara 42:46

Yeah, I think you're you're quite right. And that he uses humor to great. I mean, they they both use humor to great effect in this to comment on, like aspects of the real world. But, you know,

Lilly 43:01

there are some things about good omens that are like really still ring true today, 30 years later, which is truly a masterpiece, frankly.

Sara 43:14

I mean, that's the mark of a good book, if it stands up, you know, study, like you said 30 years later.

Lilly 43:20

And then there are some things about it that don't quite as much in our opinion. We already talked about this. I know you agree with me.

Sara 43:30

Yes, I do. I do agree with you. We have talked about this.

Lilly 43:35

I think it really is like such an interesting thing, though. So to stop dancing around the issue. In the book Good Omens, it deals with both sexism and racism, which is being very generous to it. Because when I say deals with I mean, it completely deconstruct sexism, and satirizes it and ridicules it, and then participates in racism in a frankly, uncomfortable way.

Sara 44:11

Yeah, one of the things that I was really struck by in this read through of good omens was how, like racism is sort of played for laughs a lot of the time and the non white characters are props and not, I mean, calling them characters is generous, because they really are there just to prop up the joke.

Lilly 44:35

Yeah, basically, like, at some level, they're not people.

Sara 44:38

So there's this one character, Sergeant Shadwell, who is in the book, incredibly, incredibly racist. Like he says horrible things about his landlord that I'm not. I'm not really going to go into but like they're bad.

Lilly 44:54

Let's not it doesn't need to be repeated. It doesn't Yeah, it doesn't need to be repeated Neil. gaming agreed with us it can be forgotten or not. That's not fair. It shouldn't be forgotten, but it should not be perpetuated.

Sara 45:07

Yeah, I mean, and I was I was gonna go into this too, but that's an aspect of his character that was removed in the show because gaming recognized. Actually what we did here was not okay, like this is just perpetuating racist stereotypes like this is this is participating in racism and not satirizing it. Yeah. But the quote that I wanted to have, or the quote that I wanted to say about Shadwell is from so there's this other character Newt, who I don't know if I want to say it works for Shadwell, or colleagues

Lilly 45:39

in some way. LARPs with Shotwell. So this is a world where the reader knows that magic is very much real. And all of these supernatural themes truly exist. And Newt is not convinced about that for a very long time. Yeah.

Sara 46:00

And so sergeant, Shadwell is he's a sergeant in the witchfinder army, which went and found witches and is problematic in its own right, which is problematic in its own right,

Lilly 46:10

but they make fun of it for that. That's the thing is they make fun of it for that aspect. And then they turn around and say, but isn't it? Well?

Sara 46:19

Yeah, but But okay, so So Newt kind of gets roped into the the witch fighter army, but he's not really convinced about it. But this is a quote from his perspective. But he found he rather liked Shadwell, people often did much to Shabbos annoyance. The Reggie liked him, that's Shabbos landlords, because he always eventually paid his rent. It didn't cause any trouble. And it was racist in such a glowering undirected way that it was quite inoffensive. Which is a really white person perspective, that like, that's not, that's not how racism works. Like,

Lilly 46:54

I mean, this is just so blatantly out of touch, where someone who doesn't have to experience the thing can imagine that someone would react to it this way. But of course, people don't actually that just because someone reacts to it that way outwardly doesn't mean that's how they're feeling. But right, but in this case, the authors are assigning that reaction to this. The regime, its character's internal feelings, and that is what I like. That's that's where it doesn't fit. Just because they outwardly go. Okay, it's fine. I can deal with this doesn't mean inwardly. They're charmed by it.

Sara 47:34

Exactly.

Lilly 47:37

I think that is. Well, I think that's where like the the disconnect really hits home. Yeah. But then you get that in contrast to some of the absolutely scathing comments they make. They the author's Gaiman and Pratchett, the narrator. It's so hard to phrase this. But the the scathing commentary on sexism, one of my favorite quotes, you're actually the one who pulled this quote, but I'm stealing it from you.

Sara 48:10

That's okay, still away. But I think, yes, they have a much better handle on sexism than they do on racism. And it shows in this book, like I said, that's something that that is not present. At least something that I did not notice in the show, and I did rewatch the show before this podcast, but all up a lot of the sort of playing into racist stereotypes gets cut out, which I think is good, unnecessary.

Lilly 48:42

Yeah, well, they like they, in this case, Gigamon is sort of acknowledged his faults, and said, Yeah, like, that's not okay. Let's, let's fix it. Let's make it better. Well, maybe maybe we're attributing too much to him. I have no idea. But in this case, like,

Sara 49:01

I think he had, I think that he had final editorial control over the script. So

Lilly 49:06

can you imagine him going? No, no. What the, the racist Tibetan characters back in?

Sara 49:13

Well, okay, that that killer is, but that in particular is still there, like, because that, and that is an area where I think it actually kind of works, because that's playing into the conspiracy theories that anathema and Adam, who's the Antichrist, like believe in? So that's more, but it's

Lilly 49:37

reframed to be poking fun at the racism instead of participating in it?

Sara 49:43

Yes, exactly. Exactly. It's that's not that's not people liking Shadwell despite his racism, that's, we recognize this as a weird racist conspiracy theory. And we are going to make fun of it right?

Lilly 49:58

It's that's the thing it's are we really laughing with the racists? Or are we laughing at the racists?

Sara 50:07

Yeah. So you were going to give a quote, that I completely derailed us from that conversation?

Lilly 50:13

Well, I feel like this is a quote that a lot of people have heard, regardless of context. Maybe that's just me. But

Sara 50:22

judging by that, I think I know what quote, you're going to say. I will be interested to see if I'm right.

Lilly 50:27

Most books on witchcraft will tell you. Yeah, right. It's such a good quote. All right, I'll continue it, especially most books on witchcraft will tell you that witches work naked. This is because most books on witchcraft are written by men. Like in two sentences, they do more to deconstruct the patriarchy than the entire novel does to address like colonialism?

Sara 51:00

Well, I think it just goes to show that you can be really enlightened in one area and still just really, really dumb in another.

Lilly 51:07

And how much of it was the time period to this came out in 1990? That's 30 years? Yeah,

Sara 51:12

I think they, they do get credit for getting some of it right. And despite, like, that particular glaring flaw, I think it's still a very good read. But had they kept that aspect of the book in the show, I would not have given them any sort of credit. But clearly, like they have evolved. So

Lilly 51:36

the pinnacle of this book, or not the pinnacle, the, the inciting incident of this novel is not the apocalypse, it is this angel and demon, who are trying to raise the Antichrist neutrally. And so they both want to exert their influences equally. So that he does not go one way or the other. And so therefore, the apocalypse would not happen. And that is sort of the the driving force of this whole plot. These supernatural creatures trying to force nurture over nature onto this child. But then they got the entire child wrong. And so it like, it ends up. I mean, obviously, everything changes, and we're not going to tell you how it goes. But they're like, their whole struggle is trying to impose nature over nurture. Yeah, I think

Sara 52:43

that there are well, as you say, nature versus nurture is one of the overarching themes in this book. But there's also a whole lot about freewill, and really kind of what it means to be human. And I think that that is sort of the through line of this book that's explored through this storyline of the Antichrist being raised by a normal British couple.

Lilly 53:11

And in all of these struggles of the book, we see Croley, the demon who's a very celebrated demon, for his influence on humanity, however, we find out well, we are told very early on that he didn't actually do any of it.

Sara 53:30

Yeah, like he gets credit for the Spanish Inquisition, for example, when he was just sort of in the area. But one of the things that is made evident is that like, people don't actually need demons to tarnish their souls, they can, they can do it perfectly well themselves. And there's a good quote, I think, that currently says or expresses internally, where you found the real McCoy, the real grace and the real heart stopping evil was right inside the human mind. So you don't need angels or demons like you. You just need humanity,

Lilly 54:03

which is an extremely pessimistic view. However,

Sara 54:08

I mean, it's an extremely pessimistic view, but it's also given in the text that currently is an optimist. Well, okay. It says specifically, and I don't have the quote, I have it bookmarked somewhere. Okay,

Lilly 54:21

I think that's couched because he's an optimist, but he's a demon. So what is a demon optimist?

Sara 54:27

Here we go. Because underneath it all, Curley was an optimist. It was the utter surety that he would come out on top that the universe would look after him. So it doesn't tell me

Lilly 54:36

about humanity here is like, at the end of the day, humans do the worst stuff, but they also do the best. And I think that is a really beautiful balance.

Sara 54:50

And they straddle that line. I mean, Gaiman and Pratchett in this book, straddle that line very, very well.

Lilly 54:56

Oh, yeah. For all of the darkness that they point out and participate in at the end of the day, they sort of wrap it up with, but people can be better. I have a confession to make. What's your confession Lily is different from the other one this time.

Sara 55:20

So you did in fact, read this,

Lilly 55:21

but I did read well, I read the last one too. But I just

Sara 55:25

just not recently and not specifically for

Lilly 55:27

the podcast, right? I did read this one recently. And for the podcast, and I am extremely biased because The Conjuring of XOF average x by KR our Lock Haven takes place in Seattle.

Sara 55:42

Yes, it does. It does take place in Seattle.

Lilly 55:46

And there, there are a lot of reasons to like this book. And being in Seattle is a bad reason. But I still do. I mean,

Sara 55:55

I think it's an understandable reason.

Lilly 55:59

There are some extremely charming

Sara 56:03

local references. Yeah, that, obviously, like,

Lilly 56:07

you don't have to know where Lake Washington is to enjoy this book. But the fact that that is the geographical call out for some of the action. It's just fun, because it's accurate. And I've been there.

Sara 56:22

Someone who lives in Washington, it feels like an in joke. Well,

Lilly 56:28

I will say this. He sure as hell didn't get anything wrong. As far as geography goes, which can be a huge annoyance. If that's very true. If someone is trying to set something where they don't understand, then it completely stands out. Yeah. And so that's very true. Yeah, so I think I noticed it, because I live here. And so I'm sort of more familiar with the area. But, I mean, if you don't live here, it doesn't matter. That I, it's just fun. I'm gonna stop overstating it, it was fun. It was good. This book is really fun in a lot of really different ways. It is,

Sara 57:12

before we get any further in our discussion of it a I would like to thank KR Lock Haven for providing us this copy. And be I would like to say that you can get it. If you're listening to this episode as it comes out. You can get this book tomorrow for everyone else who is untethered from time you can get it April 1. So if you are listening to it after this episode has come out, it is already available to you.

Lilly 57:38

I would like to thank KR Lock Haven for having the name. Kyle, Robert redundant Lock Haven.

Sara 57:50

That's quite good. It's just excellent. All right, it is it is just excellent.

Lilly 57:55

The full title of this book is The Conjuring of XOF ever wrecks, the self proclaimed greatest dragon in the multiverse. So when you said The Conjuring of soft fabrics, I was like, Alright, there's gonna be some fantasy bullshit. And then when I saw the subtitle, like, immediately upon seeing the subtitle, I was hooked. This book is such a charming, least, like self aware. I don't think parody is quite the right word. I mean, I, but maybe it is,

Sara 58:32

maybe I mean, Lock Haven has said that he takes a lot of inspiration from Terry Pratchett. And I think that's evident in some of the humor of the series.

Lilly 58:45

The footnotes are some of the, my favorite parts.

Sara 58:49

I enjoyed the footnotes. But I think that for me, footnotes are a medium that are better enjoy it in print. And since I was reading this, like as an ebook, it felt like they were they were so long that it broke up the pacing of the of the book, but that's an issue with the format that I read it and not with the footnote itself.

Lilly 59:10

I also read it as an e book that didn't bother me. So maybe that's just a personal preference. That's fine. You're allowed to have those. The main premise of this book is that Harris the main character, is starting his first day on the job of a sort of magical work site. It's called the site. It's the site.

Sara 59:35

It is it is magical, governmental bureaucracy.

Lilly 59:39

Okay, I really love that this book is not fucking with magic school. I am so sick of Magic School. I'm over it. I'm done with it. And I think this, this book just sort of grasps onto that, like, somehow Lock Haven knew that and went, Okay. Magic School is a trade school. None of this university shit. It's a trade school. Everyone already did it, let's just go to their first job. And oh man, the comedy of someone being over in over their head at their first job is so relatable. And

Sara 1:00:25

it's, it's done quite perfectly in this Oh, it's

Lilly 1:00:28

fantastic. And it's something that I don't wool. It's something that I have not seen in books, because I feel like a lot of books are going through the school shit, like all of that learning process. But what happens afterwards,

Sara 1:00:45

you don't see a lot of the nerves that you get, you know, at job interviews in first days. And yeah, just getting accustomed to being part of the workforce is not really shown. What's that phrase?

Lilly 1:00:57

Imposter syndrome. I feel like this book really sees impostor syndrome for someone first entering the workforce. So we are we are seeing the main character Harris. on him. Basically, it starts with his first day on the job at this secret magical site. And we discover that they're like he was hired on for a big project, which is, as the title suggests, The Conjuring of South Africa, Rex, and then that feeling of being in over your head and thinking you're prepared and then realizing you weren't, that I personally found extremely relatable.

Sara 1:01:42

I think this was one of the best examples of characters being understandably overwhelmed and unequipped to do what they need to do. Not because they're making stupid decisions, but just because, like, they're normal people thrown into this, like, way over their head, they're in way over there. They're in way over there. So so like, a lot of the times if, if you're reading a fantasy novel, like, someone has to, like, you know, go on a quest to get an item, they succeed, because that is what advances the plot, and things like that, like, they fail at, they fail miserably at. But I love it.

Lilly 1:02:35

Because it's all extremely relatable. Like, that's it. Yeah, that's at the end of the day. I understand why they made the decisions they made. Yeah, it makes sense at the time.

Sara 1:02:47

Yeah, I see how you got from point A to point B, I would do that too. And I would also probably fail at plan A and up Plan B like you did and up Plan C, I see myself in there.

Lilly 1:02:59

Really, really want Lock Haven to write a zombie novel, only because I feel like that is the prime failing of zombie novels, or stories in any sense. You have characters do stupid shit, just to move the story forward. And it's the worst. However, I think Lock Haven in this novel has proven that he can like truly capture the realities of human limits. Yeah. And so I want to see him do a zombie story. Just because I trust that he could actually do it. Well,

Sara 1:03:40

I would love to see a humorous so I mean, I'm not normally one for zombie stories, but I would read that as long as there was humor in it. Of course, humor sabe is I'm I guess I'm

Lilly 1:03:53

just saying that's a trope that I would really love to see him do just because like the strengths that he has shown I think would be very good for it. Za have Rex, the dragon who fucks shit up in America. I that's really okay. Is it spoilers to say there are alternate endings to this book?

Sara 1:04:19

I don't think so. No, I don't think that's spoilery in and of itself.

Lilly 1:04:23

I've that's all I'm gonna say about it. And that it's wonderful. That was something okay. Okay. This book was incredible. Because I feel like normally when a book has completed its rising action and it's wrapping up. I either don't care or I hate it. Most of the time,

Sara 1:04:48

you mean the book in general or that specific like aspect that it's wrapping up?

Lilly 1:04:54

No, the the the falling action? Yeah, after the climax. I either don't care or a hate what's happening, like, it's usually it's whatever. But in The Conjuring of xOP, after X, Lock Haven just like really nailed that plot structure, and I, I don't want that to sound trite, like, I'm not not being shitty, I really mean it, you get the excellent setup where you really identify with all of the characters because of that first job, nerves that we've all had. And then this was a book where I actually like, was really, I was very excited to read what happens next, even though I was already content with the wrap up of the plot.

Sara 1:05:41

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's not a problem that personally, personally, but I have, but I did think that he did that wrap up very well.

Lilly 1:05:48

It didn't feel redundant, I was actually interested in it.

Sara 1:05:52

Right, it didn't feel like something tacked on.

Lilly 1:05:55

Exactly. And because he is he's clearly proven his chops as a good writer through that. I wish he would have trusted the reader a little bit more.

Sara 1:06:07

Yeah, the one issue that I had with the book was how blatant some of the pop culture references were. And I feel like that's going to really affect for me, personally, as a, as a chronic reader, I feel like that's going to affect my enjoyment of this book. If I came back to it 10 years from now, like, it's going to be jarring. So I wish that he had allowed his subtleties, which he's really good at, like, there are some references, some culture, cultural references that are just fantastic. But I had I wish that he had allowed those to shine instead of putting in quite so many, quite so blatantly.

Lilly 1:06:57

I guess I feel the exact same way. I think the references were numerous. And some of them landed extremely well. And then some of them felt almost condescending. Frankly. I didn't need you to spell out the entire name and author of the book, you know, like, yeah, I get it. I'm there. I was here with you. It's okay. It was just it was just

Sara 1:07:28

a little much. Yeah, at times.

Lilly 1:07:30

I think a really good example of that. There are two different references to the Hobbit. So xOP have Rex is the dragon. And he makes two different references to smug in The Hobbit. The first one is, you know, my contemporary smog who lives in Arab war. Which was to me too much.

Sara 1:08:00

It's a little jarring, like it takes you out of the action. Yes. If you're if you're then thinking about, like this reference,

Lilly 1:08:08

exactly. But then the second reference was, someone was trying to absorb him for weaknesses. And he just says, What were you expecting to find a missing scale or something? And that is just so good.

Sara 1:08:28

Like, that lands Perfect.

Lilly 1:08:32

Good luck, Haven trust to be more. Just like, that's all I want to say the whole book, like, trust me, please, like I'm here with you. You don't have to spell it out for me. I get it. And when he trusts you, oh, it's so good.

Sara 1:08:49

I mean, overall, it's it's a really funny book. Like, like I said, I wasn't intending to start reading it when he sent it to us. And then I did, because it just sounded good. And I kept reading it because I was like, Oh, I'm really invested in these characters. And what's going on? That a spoiler to say that I've found the revelation of who's off average acts was to be one of the most hilarious things that I've read in a book.

Lilly 1:09:18

Not if you phrase it like that, a great thing to say.

Sara 1:09:23

Because I found the revelation of who's Avex actually was to be one of the most hilarious things in a book that I've read. It was so good. It was just perfect.

Lilly 1:09:33

The pacing the reveal? Masterful?

Sara 1:09:37

Yes, it was, I mean, it was great. Even

Lilly 1:09:40

coming into this book, so we had been discussing the contouring of soft fabrics, which is a title that has its own, you know, associations or baggage or whatever.

Sara 1:09:55

connotations. Yeah. And I didn't give you the subtitle.

Lilly 1:09:58

No, you didn't. So When I opened the book for the first time and saw the subtitle, just that in itself felt like a grand reveal.

Sara 1:10:10

You're welcome.

Lilly 1:10:12

Like that kind of punchy humor was excellent. My, I think, one of my criticisms, which it's not fair, you should never compare anyone to Terry Pratchett, because that's just not fair to them. But Terry Pratchett gets away with being extremely Frank and on the nose, because he is discussing a world that is not earth. And this book is happening on Earth. And so that kind of commentary kind of lands a little bit different.

Sara 1:10:51

I think this is another example of if Lock Haven had trusted the readers more, he could have been a little more subtle about the commentary, and it would have hit harder.

Lilly 1:11:03

Yeah, trust. Trust. Yeah, I'm here with you. Trust me. I think I think that's exactly what I was shouting the entire time I read this.

Sara 1:11:12

Yeah, I mean, I think I think at all, like most of our criticisms boiled down to just trust the reader a little more. So overall, although I did have some minor quibbles with the book, I thought it was overall fantastic. And I'm really excited to see what he writes next.

Lilly 1:11:32

Oh, absolutely. And I'm going to tweet at him every day, not actually, because I don't do Twitter. But if I did, I would tweet at him every day to do a zombie book. Because I think he would do a good one. The really cool thing is that $1 From every book sold is going to the Washington State Council of firefighters burn Foundation, which I just think is extremely lovely.

Sara 1:11:57

And it is even more reason to buy the book. I mean, you should buy the book independent of that, but it's an additional reason to buy the book. Absolutely.

Lilly 1:12:05

It's, you know, you should buy this book, you should read this book. If you're looking for a good time, is that a weird Craigslist post? Did I just formulate a weird Craigslist post for this novel? I'm sorry.

Sara 1:12:20

I mean, maybe but also unrelated to good times. There was one scene this is not spoilery I don't think but there was just one. One thing that was absolutely terrifying.

Lilly 1:12:34

Yes, tell me Yeah, I know what you're gonna talk about. You told me about

Sara 1:12:40

the anthropomorphize tomato sandwich is one of the weirdest creepiest things I have read in the book. It was horrifying. Like I got there. And I was like, What the fuck did I just read? And it was great. It was like, totally fit with where the like that that action was going. Sorry. I loved it. Yeah, it was also just so terrifyingly weird.

Lilly 1:13:13

Sarah? Yes, Lily? Can you believe that word is trying to edit my writing?

Sara 1:13:25

Where it tries to edit everyone's writing? So yes, I can't believe that is

Lilly 1:13:29

such a pet peeve of mine, which is the most descriptive sentence I've ever said in my life. But it really is, though. Like, what the fuck word mind your own business? What? What did they do this time? Okay, I feel like this is an egregious example. I was writing an email because we're getting shit all up in my emails now. So I guess it's

Sara 1:13:56

you. Yeah. I'm complaining

Lilly 1:13:58

about Microsoft. But it's it's they have they have the same underlying algorithm. Yes, they have the same suggestions, and I hate all of them. Understandably. You know, I love me some spellcheck. I'm not above that. I don't I do not have that much pride.

Sara 1:14:21

We all heard your rant on research. Yes,

Lilly 1:14:25

please help me spell words. I'm all about that. But do not give me stylistic edits that are bad. I got I legitimately This is a word for word, edit. I got this week. I wrote the sentence. All of our campaigns are performing well. And then Microsoft said, no, no, no, no, no. more concise language would be clearer for your reader. You should write our can panes all our No? No.

Sara 1:15:09

I mean, there there is a trend towards that style of language

Lilly 1:15:13

that is not unclear, though.

Sara 1:15:17

Like, yeah, all of our campaigns is not unclear. Oh,

Lilly 1:15:21

like, yes, there are times where you should edit down to be more concise. I absolutely agree 100% All of our versus all our is not one of them. I do not want to see that squiggle underneath my writing the entire time I am working on an email. That is a bad edit. That is a stylistic choice, and you are wrong, Microsoft, you tell them, I'm gonna tell them, I'm gonna write them a strongly worded email, and they are going to try to edit it, and it's just gonna make me more mad about it. That is a very specific example. But I get a lot of corrections that are not technically corrections. They're just stylistic choices. And I made the decision that I did, because it's better. And I am confident in saying that, frankly. And whatever software I'm using, needs to shut the fuck up and go away. See, I

Sara 1:16:31

get I'm just used to ignoring those squiggles because I get a lot of those squiggles in the software that I use for work for Code. Yeah, you do? Yeah. Well, I was going to say because we have a lot of words that I'm not misspelling, but they're not actual words. And so Pi charm doesn't recognize that. I mean, pi charm says, Oh, hey, this word is not an actual word. And I'm like, Yeah, pi charm. I know. It's not an actual word. But that's, that's the word that is in fact, the word that I wanted to say. So I'm just used to ignoring those squiggles.

Lilly 1:17:05

Oh, no, I It bothers me so much. Because I, I need to look at the squiggles because if I spell the word wrong, I need to know. And then it turns out it was complaining about something that is good and bad. Also stupid. Both of those things.

Sara 1:17:32

Well, that is a pet peeve indeed.

Lilly 1:17:36

I'm right. You're wrong. Neener Neener Neener.

Sara 1:17:43

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of fiction fans. You can

Lilly 1:17:47

get in touch with us on Instagram and Twitter at fiction fans pod or shoot us an email at fiction fans pod@gmail.com

Sara 1:17:58

If you've enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to rate review and subscribe.

Lilly 1:18:03

Have a great 24 hours. Bye

Sara 1:18:08

bye