Gideon the Ninth & Red Harvest Moon

Episode 11

Release Date: 6/23/2021

Your hosts react to the adrenaline rush that is “Red Harvest Moon” by Miles Hurt (and also cast Vin Diesel in the theoretical movie adaptation… more than once). They also argue over just about everything in “Gideon the Ninth” by Tamsyn Muir. This episode also features a “Words are Weird” segment concerning bridges and the state thereof.

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:05

Hello, and welcome to fiction fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara 00:12

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 00:15

And we like to start things off on a positive note. So Sarah wants something great that happened this week. My birthday was on the 11th. Happy birthday.

Sara 00:22

Thank you. I had an excessive amount of oysters and drank a lot of vodka. And it was delightful.

Lilly 00:28

It sounds like a wonderful birthday.

Sara 00:31

It was it was very good. I was very pleased. What is something good that happened for you last week.

Lilly 00:38

It was going to be that my son flowers sprouted. But now half of them are missing their leafs. Like maybe some kind of critter has also noticed that they sprouted

Sara 00:51

some kind of critter is also having a very good week.

Lilly 00:57

I don't know that. I don't think I have any like, particularly great thing that actually works been going really good. But that's a weird thing to talk about on the podcast. So

Sara 01:06

but it's a it is a genuinely good thing.

Lilly 01:09

Yeah. So there we go.

Sara 01:12

And what are you drinking? Tonight?

Lilly 01:13

I am drinking vodka with Limeade and a little bit of seltzer water because I do like those bubbles. How about you?

Sara 01:20

I am drinking something similar. Only lemonade and no seltzer water because it's hot and I am dying.

Lilly 01:28

Oh, it is hot. And I'm loving it.

Sara 01:31

No, I'm not built for heat. I mean, I shouldn't complain because it's worse elsewhere. But it's too hot for my taste.

Lilly 01:39

I also have to say my definition of what is the hot day has drastically changed since slowly working my way north over the last decade or so it's fair, but it hit 70 today, so I'm excited.

Sara 01:56

70 is still in my happy place. You get anything above that, and I start to melt.

Lilly 02:01

Yeah, I mean, I just like sat out in the sun and sweated and it was sticky and gross. And the best thing ever.

Sara 02:12

That might count is your something good?

Lilly 02:14

There you go. I do also live in a state that's just known for chronic vitamin D deficiency. So yeah, gotta get it where I can find it. Exactly. Well, other than our podcast books, have you read anything good lately?

Sara 02:30

Well, normally I have a list of books that I've read that I can talk about. But this time I've only been reading we'll have time. And we'll get into that later.

Lilly 02:40

It's true. We have a whole section for that well, comparatively,

Sara 02:43

for a little while longer yet anyway. Have you read anything good lately?

Lilly 02:47

I have actually well, I don't know if I'd call it good, necessarily. But I read Aladdin and the magic lamp, the fairy tale that the Disney movie is based on interesting because we watched the live action. Aladdin movie was full of so much. I don't want to say morbid curiosity, that movie was a situation.

Sara 03:11

You're full of Aladdin related feelings.

Lilly 03:15

Just curiosity, I think, more than feel. The the live action movie wasn't as bad as I had been led to believe. I liked that they gave character motivations for Jafar, instead of him just you know, being a power hungry maniac or

Sara 03:34

whatever. Him being a stereotypical Grand Vizier.

Lilly 03:38

Exactly. And the way they handled the genie I think made a lot more sense. Instead of him wanting to be wished free, so that he can just use magic however he wants. setting him free turns him human, which I just think works a lot better. From a storytelling perspective.

Sara 03:56

I mean, I would rather be free so I can use magic, however I want, then be free to be human,

Lilly 04:01

right. But you have to be giving something up to you. From a storytelling perspective, it works better for him to have to sacrifice something for his freedom than to just, I don't know, have his cake and eat it too. And it also explains why Aladdin wouldn't want to set him free or anyone wouldn't want to set him free. Because if he could just continue to use magic on his behalf forever, like why not? Yeah. Whereas Okay, setting him free means you no longer have access to an all powerful Genie. I get it. Like that makes much more

Sara 04:35

sense. Yes, that doesn't make more sense. Anyway,

Lilly 04:39

so I was really curious about where this came from. I read a translation from the 1880s. So goodness knows I don't trust any of those academics further than I could throw them. So it's probably still not really the story. It's truly based on but close enough. Very different obviously. But like, there's two genies, which I did not know. Oh, interesting. And the whole story is just various people trying to marry the princess. And then there's like, someone steals an entire castle at one point. Strange. Also, in the beginning, Aladdin is so lazy, his father dies of disappointment.

Sara 05:25

Oh my like, that's

Lilly 05:26

just how it starts.

Sara 05:28

That seems to me, but the Diana Wynne Jones book castle in the air probably takes a lot from Aladdin. It seems like they might have some similarities. You know,

Lilly 05:39

I read that book so long ago, I cannot remember. Was that one of the house moving Kapha ones?

Sara 05:44

That is the second one, I believe. Okay.

Lilly 05:47

I don't remember a word of it. But sounds like it. Alright, Sarah, you were gonna tell me about we'll have time.

Sara 05:59

Yeah. So I did finally finish The Gathering Storm, which is book 12 of Wheel of Time. It's the first one that Brandon Sanderson has had a hand in writing. And I enjoyed it. Overall, I'm really, really invested in a Gwynns storyline, like, she is great. I love it. I'm not the hugest fan of the way that Sanderson will just like change POV characters in the middle of a chapter. Like it's not in the middle of a scene or anything like that. But it is it like Robert Jordan kept each chapter strictly to one point of view character, except for the prologue. So it had a it had a rhythm to it. That is just this is different. And I had just have to get used to

Lilly 06:45

it. Now when we say point of view character, is this just who we are focusing on? Or is it actually first person perspective?

Sara 06:54

No, it's just who we're focusing on. It's all written in third person. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. So there's that. And then I also think that Sanderson really just does not know how to write Matt, who is one of like, the main male characters, there's a scene on page 560, where Matt is making up backstories for some of his men before they go into like a town. And it just struck me as being so dramatically out of character. It was really jarring. I think I texted the friend who got me to read this and was like, What the fuck is up with the scene? This was, this was not that at all. I was really happy though, because for most of this book, Rand, who is the main character has been just insisting that he be hard, and like unemotional, and it made for really unpleasant reading. And he finally he finally got over that at the very end of the book. So I think the next two books are going to be much easier to read, especially as they focus more on him as the story draws to a close.

Lilly 08:01

Excellent. Well, I'm glad you are looking forward to the next book, then.

Sara 08:05

Yeah, I'm gonna start that in the short amount of time we have before I have to start reading books for the next episode.

Lilly 08:13

So you have two Wheel of Time books left.

Sara 08:16

I have two Wheel of Time books left. It feels like that Titanic GIF, you know, it's been 84 years.

Lilly 08:26

It sounds like you're going to finish them in a year. Maybe? I expect so. Well, that's exciting. Yeah. I'm glad we haven't derailed your schedule too much.

Sara 08:37

Completely. I would probably be already done with it if it weren't for the podcast. So you have derailed just a little bit.

Lilly 08:45

Yeah, but that's an acceptable amount.

Sara 08:53

So the first book that we'll be discussing today is read Harvest Moon by miles hurt. And we were actually offered a review copy of this book, way back in March. So thanks, and sorry, it's taken so long.

Lilly 09:07

I really loved reading this book. I am also a person who loves Vin Diesel movies. And I feel like that overlap is relevant.

Sara 09:18

I enjoyed reading this book. I really liked the premise that I liked the fight scenes, but I did want her to expand a little bit upon the motivations and like the emotional responses of those characters. They just they felt a little one dimensional and I thought that there was room for them to be well like I said expanded upon.

Lilly 09:36

I agree. I think the only character we really see well, I guess there's there's two there's the main character Ren Yeah, and we actually get some flashbacks for like earlier in his life,

Sara 09:50

but with those I I would have liked them to have more impact on they felt a little disjointed still like I liked that we were getting the flashbacks. I think they

Lilly 10:01

were mostly expository to explain to the reader why he is the way he is. Because he has a lot of well, he's a he's a bandit, right? And so how did he become a bandit? And how did his life take this path? So this sort of explores that. And we see a little bit of Drew's motivations. He's a, like a woodsmen, a hunter, that they sort of run into they being run and crimp the band that duo. But other than that, most of the characters are pretty surface level, which is why this is a great action movie.

Sara 10:41

It would, it would be a perfect action movie. I mean, you mentioned Vin Diesel, and I think it would make for a great Vin Diesel movie.

Lilly 10:49

I think the reason why I latch on to Vin Diesel in particular, is because I also while reading this book, wanted to play this d&d campaign. I something about the way the characters have like a couple of different options to navigate the hurdles in front of them and the way they are discussing which path they want to take. And the pros and cons felt so much, like sitting at a table and discussing, you know, with your friends, like, Okay, how do we want to do this? And I just think this would make an incredible I use the phrase one shot. You corrected me earlier? I mean, like, fairly self contained short running campaign,

Sara 11:36

something that only takes a month or so and not, you know, years and years. Yeah, exactly.

Lilly 11:40

That's the one shot right. Basically. But this would be so good. Partially because I love the setting. Oh my god, the I guess the monsters in the setting are not technically the same thing. But they're kind of that's that's what I mean. They're related. The ghouls in this book are so cool.

Sara 12:04

They were delightfully creepy.

Lilly 12:05

Oh, they're horrifying.

Sara 12:09

And I loved how they weren't just like your stereotypical zombie. Like they had character and motivations themselves. They weren't just mindless.

Lilly 12:17

No, yeah. And I also love how there are different types of goals. I the the main villain, is this is crond, I think is his name. Yeah, he's a seven foot tall, terrifying uses a butcher cleaver as a witch, like straight out of every video game nightmare I've ever had. But he's also an extremely intelligent, and a tactician, one of the generals of the army. So you get to see sort of, like Ghouls are much more complex than zombies often are as a monster. And I really loved that. Yeah. And also the descriptions of them. Eating people was

Sara 13:02

oh, it was, it was gory. It was just a scene. I don't know if this is a spoiler or not. If I don't say any names, there's a scene where a character has an eye injury. And in order to heal it, he gets his eye gouged out with the spoon. Oh, yeah. Which was incredibly unpleasant, but in a satisfying way.

Lilly 13:31

No, I just like the adventure. Adrenaline in this book was a top notch. I felt like I wanted to be eating popcorn the entire time.

Sara 13:42

I really, I mean, I think you're spot on with saying that it should be a movie or a d&d campaign?

Lilly 13:47

Yes, or both? Because for both of them, because of the movie,

Sara 13:51

you don't need really any of the the character development that I wished had been in the book, because you have a very limited amount of time. And with a d&d campaign, like you as the player can have that room to grow. It gives

Lilly 14:08

the players space to, you know, play in the world and develop their own relationships with NPCs.

Sara 14:16

Okay, so important question. If this was a Vin Diesel movie, who would Vin Diesel play?

Lilly 14:24

I mean, it's got to be read. Right? He's the main character.

Sara 14:27

I think Vin Diesel would be perfect as Droon the woodsman

Lilly 14:32

Yeah, I maybe this is because I have redic his character from pitch black. So embedded in my psyche, but that is definitely like an outlaw who ends up doing doing good guy stuff, even though he's a bad guy. And so I feel like that fits with Ren really well. Is that a spoiler? I don't think that's a spoiler.

Sara 14:53

I don't think it's I mean, we know that renders the main character. Yeah,

Lilly 14:57

okay. It has to be present throughout

Sara 14:59

all of We all have the book, like

Lilly 15:02

Vin has that anti hero thing going.

Sara 15:06

He also has that like big gruff Heart of Gold thing that Droon has.

Lilly 15:13

That's true. I did not picture Ren being nearly as built as Vin Diesel is

Sara 15:19

no, I think Ren and Ren is described as physically kind of weak, isn't he? Like he can't. He has a good shot, but he can't climb up those cliffs for example.

Lilly 15:31

Right. I thought that wasn't a dexterity. Now I'm using words.

Sara 15:36

I mean, and to be fair, I don't think I think drone has trouble climbing the cliff too.

Lilly 15:41

So yeah. Although in The Last Witch Hunter in the sort of prologue of that movie, Vin Diesel does have like a big old Viking beard and hair situation going on, which would be like that fits perfectly with my mental image for Droon. So that would be good. Oh,

Sara 16:00

how about how about we just have to have Vin Diesel's? Can you please both characters?

Lilly 16:05

What if he played crond? Yes, I think he would be actually I take it off. It's hard for me to admit that Vin Diesel should play a villain because I'm sorry. But I think that would actually be amazing.

Sara 16:19

I think he would be he would bring a lot of pathos to crond. Like, he would be so good.

Lilly 16:26

To what you're saying is through the magic of green screen. We're gonna have Vin Diesel play every year.

Sara 16:34

Yes, I think Vin Diesel should just play every character from Ren to crond. to cramp to the villagers. It's just it's just Vin Diesel.

Lilly 16:45

Oh my god, but then he could also play the the Reeve, who was sort of the I was gonna say, Mayor, but obviously not an elected official, and kind of a slimy guy. And now I just want to see this sort of magnum opus, acting opportunity for Vin to like, show his chops. He would have more lines than just I am Groot. You know?

Sara 17:12

I would watch that movie. And watch that.

Lilly 17:19

Okay, so other than imagining Vin Diesel as every character, why should you read this book?

Sara 17:25

You should read it. If you want a high adrenaline action adventure story with really cool and pretty complex and scary monsters?

Lilly 17:33

Definitely. I, I think that the monsters are really what takes it from popcorn action movie to, like, very engaging book. Yeah, zombies with like, emotions is a situation. That was I thought, I have to say, I was a little disappointed that the other book that's out is the prologue, because I cannot wait to read the sequel, I need more. I need more of this crazy zombie Kingdom thing. I want to know what happens. Mostly, I just want to read more about these rules, and what their deal is.

Sara 18:10

Yeah, I've really enjoyed the scope of read Harvest Moon, and that it was more self contained than your typical story. Like it wasn't about saving the world. But at the same time, I hope that the scope gets expanded in the sequel, because I do want to see more of the wider

Lilly 18:26

world. That's true. I actually, that was my note, but that's okay, we can I do get kind of tired of the entire universe is at stake plots. I really like it when it gets pulled back. And this is, you know, this book is dealing with one village, basically, that's being threatened by this particular group of ghouls. And the whole thing takes place over just a day or two, I think. Yeah, it's a very short timeline. And so there really is the opportunity there to get into this action, right? Like, we've used the word action a lot, but not wrong. It's very good.

Sara 19:05

Well, I just think that like, if you have a series, you can slowly expand. So like the next book would take place could take place in maybe the country or like, not country, but like, towns around, and then eventually it pulls back to encompass the country and the war with the goals. And just that that slow progression of intensity would be really interesting.

Lilly 19:32

And that would be great because we would have started on such a microscopic level. Okay, whole town is not microscopic, but so then when we get to these higher stakes, larger stories, I would already be so invested in all of the characters and all of these places. I yeah, I think that'd be fantastic. I was gonna say, I was the one who said I loved this smaller scope, but I'm also the one who's like, but you can read it Give me the war.

Sara 20:02

I just, I just think it works really well if you start small and then go big. Yeah.

Lilly 20:06

Instead of starting with saving the universe, I agree. Yeah.

Sara 20:10

Because you have time to, like you said get invested in the characters and the stakes. And then you you find yourself really, I don't want to say invested again.

Lilly 20:22

But you can you can jump straight to the good stuff. Because we will have these other books. We will I assume he's it says it's a series, so I assume there's more on the way? I don't know. I hope so. So like, Yeah, that's actually something else I really liked about this book. The main, I mean, obviously, the main character is read, but it also has some scenes that follow crond which I really enjoyed. Like, like I said, the ghouls were some of my favorites. That was like, I loved it. I really can't wait to see what comes next. Alright, Sarah, but who would Vin Diesel play in Gideon? The ninth by pansy.

Sara 21:12

Now, there's a question

Lilly 21:13

also everybody? Also?

Sara 21:18

He could he would be a great teacher.

Lilly 21:20

Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. He's also of an age. We're playing the like, the sage Lee? Not father figure. But the

Sara 21:29

Gandalf mentor. Yeah. A mentor of sorts.

Lilly 21:33

It would fit? I don't know. It would it would work really well.

Sara 21:37

I'm just saying if there's a movie he should play teacher.

Lilly 21:41

Honestly, name one story that wouldn't be made better by having been deselected some way. The Avengers knew what they were doing. Why do you think those movies are so good?

Sara 21:50

It's true. I guess I don't think I can. I guess

Lilly 21:53

it was Guardians of the Galaxy. You whatever. It doesn't matter. Marvel. Yeah.

Sara 22:00

Anyway, before we get any further with this, Vin Diesel, as you may have gathered, we read Gideon, the ninth and a big thank you to bender. That's at Jack Klaver. On Twitter, and Dan Fitzgerald at Dan Fitz writes, for suggesting that we read this book on the podcast. It's actually been on my radar for a number of years. And I just somehow never got around to reading it. And I was gonna read it just personally, but then we decided to add it to the calendar. And that means that it probably got read a lot sooner than I wanted to have otherwise.

Lilly 22:35

I mean, you sent me the description, and how could I not? Yeah, what is it is so I just read the quote on the front of the book.

Sara 22:44

Yeah, I mean, I think what I probably sent you was lesbian Necromancer, Cinespace. Yeah, because that is how I found when I was looking for this book. Before it was recommended that we read it for the podcast, I was looking for the title, and I found the title by googling that. So that was literally my search phrase.

Lilly 23:01

It's a pretty corny book. It is it is a pretty corny book, but in a really fun, non aggressive way. Like there's not a lot of heaving bosoms over, like, over spilling on bodice tops, you know,

Sara 23:14

yeah, well,

Lilly 23:15

I think non non aggressive is what it is. These are the traits that the main character is appreciating, are all fairly understated. She has soft hands, and she smiled at me, that kind of thing. And then it's also a lot of her emotional reactions to these cute ladies paying attention to her. Which is, I think, a lot easier for anyone to identify with. Instead of going, someone's getting objectified. It's, oh, I've helped I felt butterflies in my stomach before I know what that's like.

Sara 23:53

Yes, yes, exactly. It's really funny to that. All of the men are described in such an unflattering light when they first appear on the page, especially when you compare it to the description of the weapon. It just made me laugh, like there's a description of a rather sulky young man with an era of hair gel and filigree or he had upsetting biceps. He didn't look healthy. He looked like a collection of lemons in a sack.

Lilly 24:20

Okay, but both of those guys were in my college courses.

Sara 24:24

I mean, but it's it's so accurate. He gave the impression of being the guy fun sought out for death. Up close, he was gone to an ordinary looking, he had the eyes of a very beautiful person trapped in resting bitchface to different people, but also people that, you know, we're in our college class.

Lilly 24:44

But it is that just sort of unsympathetic description, versus the women who are not always described as like they're not all stunningly gorgeous, but they're so clearly being seen through the eyes of a woman and who loves women? And I actually thought that that narration was so strong even though this book was in the third person. That was I mean, that was absolutely Gideon speaking, right?

Sara 25:12

Yeah. Gideon had a very strong voice in this, which I enjoyed, but at the same time, some of the use of modern slang, it it definitely added to the tone of the book. But I also simultaneously found it a little jarring in a way that I'm not sure I can articulate, like hearing someone be called salty or like, the worst, or hangry or legit just say it. It was weird to read that in a book.

Lilly 25:44

I loved that. I liked slaying. I love anachronisms, that worked really well. For me. The part of the prose that bothered me was in the beginning, the some of the sentence structures are just trying way too hard to be a typical

Sara 26:02

witch. And that didn't. That didn't bother me because it felt appropriately ossified like it, it helps set the tone of the worlds but the rest

Lilly 26:11

of the book is so strong with Gideons voice that that was just stuck out like a sore thumb. Like, I know, you can switch the object in the subject in a sentence, but you should have a good reason to do it. Not just because you can.

Sara 26:28

I mean, it sounded good. It works for me. Nice. See, I

Lilly 26:31

just, they didn't slow. They felt like there. I read poetry, okay. I'm not on accustomed poetry to write. But my point is in. I was defending myself by saying I don't, I don't hate all a typical, like sentence structures. But they should have a rhythm to them. There should be a reason you're putting the words in that order. Not just to prove that, you know, grammar.

Sara 26:56

I thought that it had a rhythm.

Lilly 26:59

I disagree.

Sara 27:03

I think yet again, this is something that we will just have to agree to disagree about.

Lilly 27:08

Well, and once I got to the action, the beginning of the book does have some chunks of description, that after I went back and read them for the fourth time, because I kept slaving over because the sentences were so unnecessary. They were not unnecessary. And once I finally absorbed that content, and was like, Okay, this is the world great and got to the action, then I was fine. I got like I got into the story. It was all right. I was moving at a much quicker pace. And Gideons voice got stronger. And we started hearing descriptions of men like that, and it was hilarious. In it, it works a lot better. I think. You just gotta, I had to push through the beginning. I thought it all worked really well together, just as a whole, except for the slang.

Sara 27:54

The slang it's not that the slang I disliked because I do think that it helps set Gideons voice and it worked for her. It just also brought me out of the story a little bit, but I didn't I didn't dislike it. I just I'm not sure I entirely liked it either.

Lilly 28:12

All right. There was one use of slang that you did, like,

Sara 28:18

yes, there was one use of slang that I liked. And I tweeted about this too, but I have never heard anyone but my father used the word pill. As in like, don't be a pill or what a pill. And it was used twice in Gideon. My father apparently got it from my grandmother. So I don't think I've heard anyone else in the family say don't be a pill.

Lilly 28:41

I hear it all the time. Really? You call me a pill quite often? Yeah. Okay.

Sara 28:47

You hear it from me?

Lilly 28:55

Like, does your mother use it? No, it's just you.

Sara 28:58

Because I got it from my father. But it's funny because like, our parents have the same parents, right? We have the same grandparents. Why is my father the only one in the family? He who uses Don't be a pill?

Lilly 29:11

Maybe he has to deal with pills more often than everyone else?

Sara 29:14

I resent that implication.

Lilly 29:17

You have a deeply philosophical question in our list of conversation points. And I don't know if we're going to cover it, but I do think it should be addressed.

Sara 29:27

So my question that developed over the course of reading this book, is can a woman be a himbo? Because Gideon is definitely a himbo and not a bimbo, which the Internet offers up is the female equivalent, but they are totally different in meaning. No, they're

Lilly 29:44

not the same at all. And it's an that's a topic that has bothered me for a little while just in concept like how they are, you know, theoretically equivalent, but not at all the same.

Sara 30:01

But like Gideon, Gideon is totally a himbo. There's a quote where she and Haro who is her necromancer are fight fighting a big necromantic construct, and her brain had had only seen the one thing and her palms were damp with the sweat that came when you were both scared and dying of anticipation. So she said, the arms kind of looked like swords. I want to fight it. Which like if that was not the definition of Kimbo I don't know what is.

Lilly 30:30

Well, I think you described it really well. In bows are characters who are focused on the physicality.

Sara 30:39

It's not that Hindus don't think it's just that they think with their body, whereas a bimbo is just an airhead. Who doesn't think at all

Lilly 30:47

right? And she doesn't have physical prowess. She's just pretty Yeah. Whereas a himbo is capable with his body. And also pretty. There's also

Sara 30:58

the the kind of unspoken edition of with the heart of gold. When you when you discuss the himbo and that is not present in the definition of bembo Dembo at all. No,

Lilly 31:11

I have never heard the word himbo not used lovingly.

Sara 31:16

It's often a term of endearment. Yeah, like I've

Lilly 31:19

always ever heard it used that way. Yeah. Also never for a real person. For the record. i That's something I've only ever heard used to describe fictional characters. But I don't think anyone in the history of ever unless you have a fetish has used the word bimbo as a compliment.

Sara 31:39

I think you're right about that.

Lilly 31:40

And I do not begin to have the background to dig into that. But wow, what their service?

Sara 31:50

Yeah, there sure is something there.

Lilly 31:52

In conclusion, himbo should be gender neutral. And Gideon is one. Yes. So we sort of introduced the concept of this book by using the quote on the front cover, which is lesbian necromancers in space, which is pretty good. But usually we try to give a little bit more context. So should we just give like a couple sentence top level description, talk about why you should read this book, although I feel like if you've been listening for the last 10 minutes, you already know.

Sara 32:25

Yeah, so high level summary is Gideon wants to get off of her planet. And harrow says that Shel Haro is the essentially the ruler of her planet.

Lilly 32:41

Can I take a step back even higher level?

Sara 32:45

is still I'm not good at summaries. All right. This is why you don't make me do them.

Lilly 32:49

Basic premise of the book is that this takes place in a world universe, galaxy, whatever. Where necromancy first of all, is either extremely common or extremely common in the ruling class. It's unclear. We don't really see any commoners in this whole book except for Gideon. And there are nine houses. The first house is the undead emperor, the emperor who has been risen again, the rest of them are all a various levels of political force. The ninth house, as you may have figured out that Gideon, the ninth is from is sort of the weird, creepy culty one, which for a society of necromancer is is saying something. And Gideon is an indentured servant to this house, and wants nothing more than to get away from it forever. That's the beginning.

Sara 33:44

That's a much more in depth description than mine.

Lilly 33:48

Well, I this, that's all stuff you find out in the first chapter, if not page, right. Oh, yeah. That's the premise of the book. Yeah. And then there's lesbian necromancer shenanigans, and that's all you really need to know.

Sara 34:02

Also also murder mysteries. Right? So

Lilly 34:08

Gideon ends up representing the ninth house with HARO, who is the Reverend daughter. She is the heiress of the ninth house, the two of them go to some weird, like, survivor game show. It's not a game show. It's a competition to become a demigod, basically, because the emperor was like, Hey, everyone, send some representatives. If you make it, you'll be a new demigod for me. And obviously all of these politicos are like hell yeah. And then they all start dying. And then they all start dying because turns out the competition is a little harsher than survivor. Okay, so why should you read this book?

Sara 34:56

I'm gonna sound like a broken record when I say lesbian. necromancer some space but less been necromancer some space look,

Lilly 35:03

look, ladies are real nice and watching them do scary creepy magic is also real nice.

Sara 35:11

There is that but also Gideon has such a strong, funny voice that it was just a pleasure to

Lilly 35:18

read the mystery aspect of it. I was not expecting that was a really pleasant surprise.

Sara 35:24

I didn't know anything about this book, except that it was Lisbon necromancers and space. So I was very surprised when we

Lilly 35:29

got to the mystery bits. I wouldn't call it a gothic palace in space. That's technically the quote from the front of the book. That's because I have opinions on the definition of Gothic. If you mean creepy with a lot of bones, okay? Yes. But there's no ancestry family, so that's not Gothic. Sorry.

Sara 35:50

We don't know that's true.

Lilly 35:52

Okay. Spoilers. To avoid spoilers for Gideon, the Knights skip to 5535

Sara 36:08

Okay, so now that we're in the spoiler section, can I just say that even though Gideon, the ninth is about necromancers, I wasn't actually expecting so much character death. Because

Lilly 36:22

yeah, you think of necromancers as dealing with things that have previously died? Not murdering or getting murdered?

Sara 36:30

Yeah, I was. I was surprised at the murder mystery aspect of it enjoyably surprised. Yeah, just

Lilly 36:37

the reveal at the end. For we discover that Dulcinea is not who she said she was. I did not see coming from I mean, she was suspicious. But yeah, I didn't think that she was secretly a demigod the whole time.

Sara 36:55

I really enjoyed it, because even though it's increasingly obvious as the book moves along, that both Dulcinea and I antha anthy. Yeah, are not exactly what they see him like. Anthony presents herself as the shadow for sister and Dulcinea, you know, a dying necromancer. But you I was still surprised by the revelations. I ended up. I felt

Lilly 37:19

those two were very different just because it was so obvious that I ampie didn't consider herself the shadow of her sister.

Sara 37:29

But there's they're still Yes, yes. They're different. I agree that they're different. But I was still surprised at what was revealed. Oh, yes. Like that's that's my point.

Lilly 37:41

Yeah, I anti being that as cutthroat as she ended up being was not where I thought it was going.

Sara 37:47

Necessarily. She I thought she was going to be the big bad murdering everyone actually.

Lilly 37:52

I mean, she kind of is, she starts,

Sara 37:56

she murders someone. But I thought that she was going to be the overarching villain and not those.

Lilly 38:02

So I am really glad that Dulcinea ended up being an ancient demigod, because there's a lot of descriptions of her suddenly seem like, Oh, she's 25 she's so old. Gosh, so many years on that brow, and I'm like, okay, okay, slow your roll, Gideon. I get that you're 18. But it's a little unnecessary. And then we find out it's because she is an ancient being. And that's why she appeared to be so old. And I was like, Okay, now I'm fine with it. Like, I thought, harping on how old she was, was funny, considering the age range of the other characters, but I'm glad that it had something else going on.

Sara 38:48

Okay, but also like when you were 18, maybe it's just me, but like, when you're 18 you do think 25 is pretty all

Lilly 38:56

right. And like, it was just the some things in this book felt like Gideons voice and some things in this book felt like the narrator. And I can't necessarily delineate

Sara 39:07

I actually didn't find the descriptions of like getting Gideon thinking, Dulcinea was that old, very excessive, because Dulcinea is dying of a super horrible cancerous illness. Like yeah, she's gonna look old and wasted because she's literally dying.

Lilly 39:28

Yeah, I didn't. It didn't bother me. It just the combination of she's 25 Oh, man, look at the wrinkles around her eyes. Yeah, but she's dying. But it was never described because she has a terminal illness. It was described as because she is terminally an old hag.

Sara 39:50

No, the implication to me was that because she has a terminal illness. She's aged beyond her 25 years.

Lilly 39:57

Okay, that's not how that read to me. But that's all right. It also didn't actually bother me that much. It was, it was mostly funny. It just because it came up so much. I was like, Yeah, I was like, okay, like, I get it. Like, come on, right, like, move on, I get it. But then there was a reason. So the number of times it came up was it had to pay off. Yeah, exactly. It wasn't Why are you so stuck on this? It was I get it now.

Sara 40:27

I did read it differently. But I understand what you're saying.

Lilly 40:30

It was funny. It was just happened so much. I was like, Where are you going with this? And I figured it out or was told very bluntly, I did shit out.

Sara 40:41

No, I was I was not expecting that particular reveal about Dulcinea. I

Lilly 40:47

really liked the flirting between Dulcinea and Gideon, through the book, especially as a counterpoint between Gideon and harrow with dill Cydia, it's, it's almost that summer camp romance vibe. Like, we're gonna both put our hands on the armrest and touch pinkies and, like, make eyes at each other. You know, it's like, it's just so sweet and harmless. it because it's going nowhere.

Sara 41:16

Until Dulcinea turns out to be, you know, a dummy goddess intent on killing everyone that doesn't

Lilly 41:21

have anything to do with their flirting. I'm talking purely about their relationship dynamics. But then you get Gideon and horo, who have a completely antagonistic relationship, have done everything in their power to make the other one miserable. And not in a funny I put a frog in your bed way, like harrow went out of her way to make sure Gideon could never leave her family's like service, as far as going through, not technically illegal, but finding weird legal loopholes to keep her indentured. And, you know, turn the heat off in her room so that she would almost freeze to death for weeks at a time. Like this is not harmless pranks. This is torture like that. Are you saying?

Sara 42:10

Are you saying it's not love? No.

Lilly 42:16

But we see them being forced to team up and their relationship grows. And I was on board with all of that. That was great. It happened pretty slow. The tension, like ratchets up extremely overtime. Definitely a slow burn there. But then it feels like once they have one heart to heart, and they're like we've been in love the whole time. Like no, you haven't. What is this? Don't rewrite all over the struggle. You went through the gate here. It makes the ending like it sapped all of the meaning. meaningfulness. Well, that's not a word.

Sara 42:58

I mean, it's a word as you say, it's a word.

Lilly 43:00

It's sapped all of the emotional payoff from the ending for me, because I was so annoyed with the way they handled it. They being Gideon and harrow talking about their relationship.

Sara 43:11

It is also where it it's an Merriam Webster Dictionary, all right,

Lilly 43:15

meaningfulness and Fergalicious.

Sara 43:19

And I actually disagree with you there. I mean, we this has been a, an episode for disagreement, or at least a book for disagreement, but I feel like they've been orbiting each other for their entire lives. They're now through choice. Did he

Lilly 43:36

leave? No, but like she's

Sara 43:38

She says that when she was younger, she just wanted harrows attention on her like they have

Lilly 43:44

a hero was literally the only other person

Sara 43:48

Okay, so it Stockholm Syndrome. I won't bore you too much, but they have been orbiting each other like their entire lives, whether whether out of genuine choice or not, like they do have strong feelings for each other. Now they're on this planet by themselves without anyone else they can trust besides each other,

Lilly 44:04

like, but they can't even trust each other. Which to

Sara 44:07

their two dramatic teenagers. Like of course, they're gonna make over the top confessions of love.

Lilly 44:13

They continue betraying each other until the very end, which is fine. Like I said, enemies to lovers like, it's cool, I get it. But it's the way that they act as if it had always been this way. Instead of Wow, crazy how far we've come. Like really put me off.

Sara 44:34

I didn't feel like that at all.

Lilly 44:38

No, it like I am not exaggerating when I say it completely ruined the ending for me. Now, from from a plot perspective. I love that Gideon sacrificed herself kind of for the hell of it. It fit with her character very well. But I really wish her Lastline hadn't been. Everything about me is about you or some shit like that. at, like, it was just not like, come on good to you. And you're funnier than that.

Sara 45:04

It worked. It worked for me. It worked for me very well. So, again, agree to disagree here. But

Lilly 45:15

you're gonna have to tell me what happens in the next book because I am done with this series. Like I'm not reading a single word about Haro.

Sara 45:23

I will I will let you know what happens in her the night. If I had had heroine nights. Last night, when I finished reading Gideon, I would have started hero. But I did not have her the nights. Because I did not think ahead. I've also been told but it's a very different book from Gideon. Well,

Lilly 45:40

so speaking of scope, Gideon, the ninth is all about this one trial, which was really fun, and I loved it. And turned out it was a murder mystery, and also just general mystery of what the hell is going on in the spooky house. But it feels like it's headed at the end, we find out that they were doing this contest to become a demigod, because there's a secret of war that's been going on and all the other ones are dead.

Sara 46:09

That was that was implied throughout like the book, that wasn't a surprise

Lilly 46:13

all of them. There's like a line that says, do even though they're immortal doesn't mean they can't die. And that's like, it implies that some of them need to be replaced. I don't think the characters knew that all of them were gone.

Sara 46:28

But it was I mean, it was to me it was evident enough that, like, they needed more manpower, whether or not all of the lighters were dead. You know, that's kind of irrelevant. There was a war going on and they needed more.

Lilly 46:42

Okay, sure. That's fine. Hey, what, what was dual Sydney as deal anyway, not Dulcinea, the lector the demigod that she actually was

Sara 46:53

she, she hated the Emperor, because she didn't want to live forever. After all this time, or something like that. Also, can I just say that for the majority of this book, I thought that the emperor was either going to be a lie or dead.

Lilly 47:08

It definitely, I definitely didn't think he was just going to be a dude. That was why

Sara 47:15

I didn't think the emperor was actually going to like come into play at all.

Lilly 47:18

So here's his description. Siberia, who was the Debbie got us who was pretending to be Dulcinea was my fault. He said, she was the very best of all of us. The most loyal, the most humane, the most resilient, the one with the most capacity for kindness. I made her live 10,000 years in pain, because I was selfish. And she led me

Sara 47:45

okay. I guess I mean, if you

Lilly 47:48

so she goes about and like murders all of these people so that she can kill the Emperor, like, what was right Oh, she just trying to fuck shit up.

Sara 47:56

I think she was just trying to fuck it up like, like, she lives these 10,000 years got incredibly bitter, and just wanted to ruin things for the Emperor.

Lilly 48:06

And so she torments all of these people. Because they wanted to be the new favorites. And she torments all

Sara 48:13

these people because the Emperor's that's going to hurt the Emperor. Like the emperor doesn't want these people tormented. He wants them to come to the decision to like the the measured and knowledgeable decision to become demigods, like, of their own accord. He doesn't want them to be pressured into it, because someone is killing them off. All right. I guess that it's like, how can how can she make things? How, what what's the worst she can do to the Emperor while she's gonna do it? And it's ruin all of his plans and make these people hurt.

Lilly 48:51

All right. I didn't totally get that. I guess that. I mean, that's the only explanation. So I guess I got it while I was reading. But I felt like she has a line of dialogue. There. She was like, this was my plan all along, you fools. And I was like, Wait, what was you had a plan?

Sara 49:11

I mean, I'm pretty sure. And I don't have the specific. I don't have the specific scene or the specific quote, but I'm, I'm pretty sure that she says basically just that okay, you know, but she wanted to make the Emperor hurt. To me,

Lilly 49:25

her confession read more like a murder plot. And so I thought there was something more going on. Like she also had this secret dagger that she was going to use as it for an assassination attempt. But then that didn't get brought up ever again. So I was like, clearly I misread what, what her plans were.

Sara 49:45

Yeah, I mean, she says, I have come back home to kill the Emperor and burn his houses. Is her kind of like her introduction to Siberia as Siberia, not Siberia as Dulcinea

Lilly 49:59

All right Yeah. I mean, it's, she did a good job. So okay.

Sara 50:05

I guess she was. She was moderately effective. She doesn't kill everyone.

Lilly 50:09

She killed a lot of people. While I was reading that I just felt like I was missing something. That's that was enough. All right.

Sara 50:16

Yeah, that was enough for me.

Lilly 50:19

I did like, all of the action in this book.

Sara 50:23

The action was good. And I liked all of the bones. Yeah. unsurprising given that it's me, and I am a bone person. But well, and

Lilly 50:34

if you look at it as a murder mystery, so they're each House sent to people to this contest, right, there was the Necromancer and the Cavalier, or the impo, if you

Sara 50:44

will, the Necromancer in the sword person, yeah,

Lilly 50:47

Stabby stabby. Boy. Although I am using boy as a gender neutral term there, which is probably not helpful to literally anyone. It was really fun, sort of going through this. And as you said, you can't trust anybody. But of course, they do end up teaming up with people. And sort of going through and seeing the different personalities and motivations in the different houses. And the different relationship dynamics between all of these pairs was really, really fun. Like each pair had a different relationship with each other. And just watching how this necromancer Cavalier team can play out in eight different ways. was great. It was great. There was a married couple. That was cute as hell. There was the creepy, I guess they were technically related. But that was only because

Sara 51:47

I kind of thought the implication was that one of them was a clone. I might be wrong about that. But like,

Lilly 51:54

I don't think he was a clone. Because he said that he was raised with a bunch of different brothers. So that the one who was the genetic match would be the one chosen. Yeah. And so I thought they just churned through children trying to until they got like a pair that worked so that one could suck the life force out of the other. Just horrifying.

Sara 52:17

I guess. I guess. I don't necessarily mean clone. I mean, like, genetically engineered somehow. Maybe that could I think that's just my reading and not anything of the text.

Lilly 52:32

Genetically engineered. Sure. But not in a scientific way. In a let's just breed a bunch and then choose for the best traits way, which is still technically engineering.

Sara 52:44

So that's, that's true.

Lilly 52:48

He has a GMO Cavalier.

Sara 52:53

I was just sad that the people I liked most died first. Weren't they off? They

Lilly 52:57

were well, because they were the sweethearts, the sweetie they were the married couple who were just like, nice to everyone.

Sara 53:06

Which is a concept in the world of getting the Knights.

Lilly 53:10

Right. Nice to everyone including each other, which is,

Sara 53:14

I guess, also a concept. That's not

Lilly 53:16

fair. A lot of the Cavalier necromancer pears did really have an us against the world mentality. Yeah. But not always in a healthy way. Whereas was it? I think that there was there was a lot of codependency there. Yeah. Well, I mean, the the system is set up for that. Right? Right. They're trying to encourage what half of this team to willingly sacrifice themselves. I don't think you're setting up a healthy relationship with that.

Sara 53:49

You may have a point there.

Lilly 53:53

Sarah, do you want to wrap up our our discussion of this with one of our favorite quotes from the book?

Sara 53:58

I can do that. Then we're all dead now. But let's bring health first said Harrow. Gideon looked over her shoulder at her and caught the Reverend daughter smile. There was blood sweat coming out of her left ear, but her smile was long and sweet and beautiful. Gideon found herself smiling back so hard, her mouse hurt. Her adipose said I'll keep it off you now show them what the ninth house does. Gideon lifted her sword. We do bones motherfucker.

Lilly 54:28

I feel like in case anyone is listening to this and has not read the book, nav and Gideon are the same person. And also horo and the reverends daughter, and the Reverend daughter, excuse me and the addict are all the same person. There were only two people in that scene. There were a lot of titles.

Sara 54:49

I find it interesting that you say HARO, and not Haro.

Lilly 54:52

Like harrowing. harrowing? Yeah, I guess I do. Either way. Not really stick to one or the other. Hello, hello. That's within Oh

Sara 55:05

yeah, what's up? Hey, I

Lilly 55:05

think Hallo. What's her full name?

Sara 55:08

Haro hawk.

Lilly 55:10

Oh, that's why Haro hawk. I want those to be the same sound.

Sara 55:15

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, Hero hack

Lilly 55:25

Well, we would have had a really nice ending but I think we got to end on I have a words are weird that is completely directed at whoever writes the electronic signs for the First Avenue Bridge in Seattle

Sara 55:48

tell us about your words are weird literally

Lilly 55:50

Excuse me, sir. But the bridge is closed is not the same thing as the bridge is up it took me an extra 30 minutes to get into the city the other day, because I was driving up to the first step new bridge. And I was like, All right, I gotta go into Seattle. This is normal, I needed to get a book for this podcast, because I did curbside pickup because I procrastinate and couldn't wait for it to be delivered. And the big old sign said the bridge is closed. So I said to myself, gosh, I better find some other way to get into Seattle, because the bridge is closed. That means you can't use it.

Sara 56:36

That isn't that is what that implies.

Lilly 56:38

Turns out the bridge was up, which is completely different. That just means there's you know, you got to wait for a couple of minutes for it to go back down. That's not find a new route. Why would you ever say closed? Would you mean up? Those are not the same thing.

Sara 56:58

They're not the same thing. And they're not even, like closed is not even accurate. If it's just right. Like it's it's not like you can somehow interpret the bridge is closed as being the bridges up. It's just they're they're two different states of being Yeah.

Lilly 57:16

And closed implies some level of permanence. Well, I should say the West Seattle bridge is closed. Can't drive on that at all. I know I'm talking a lot about Seattle bridges, but it's fine.

Sara 57:29

You get it.

Lilly 57:32

Let's Seattle bridge is closed can't drive on it closed. Like that's the words everyone's been using. First Avenue Bridge is closed. Oh, now what? Turns out that was a lie.

Sara 57:44

I'm sorry that you had to go to such pains to get a book for this podcast.

Lilly 57:49

Yeah, I mean. I got there eventually.

Sara 58:00

On the other hand, it means that you had that we had something to add to words or weird this episode. That's true. So you were you're taking one for the team. I could have

Lilly 58:11

seen that sign and been just as annoyed and not taken an exit I didn't actually want to take and then gotten a little bit lost and then tried to follow detour signs and then turn the runway and then eventually find myself on the First Avenue Bridge, which is what I was going to do originally. But like half an hour later.

Sara 58:33

That sounds like an ordeal.

Lilly 58:35

It was a whole thing. It's over now. And now I'll never believe that sign again. There's going to be a day where the bridge is closed. And if I go past the last exit, I will just be stuck on the bridge forever. But I I'll do it. I'll drive through the barrier because it's like well, that's fine. It's not right.

Sara 58:56

That sounds like a Magnus archives episodes.

Lilly 58:59

I still haven't started that.

Sara 59:02

I haven't read anything for a while because I've been too busy reading podcast stuff.

Lilly 59:08

Well, hopefully one of our listeners works for the free weights. Job department. I'm sure that's the thing right? At that time, okay.

Sara 59:22

We can write an angry letter to a verse in charge. And tell them sir, your signage is wrong.

Lilly 59:32

This is inaccurate. No, I'll just send them a link to this episode and then they get to listen to all of our lesbian necromancer stuff.

Sara 59:42

I mean, that also gets us an extra listen so I say do it.

Lilly 59:47

Somehow I don't think that's how that would pan out.

Sara 59:51

You know, you're probably right.

Lilly 59:54

I usually am.

Sara 59:57

Disagree there.

Lilly 59:58

I mean, we just spoke for like 10 minutes about how I thought the bridge was closed. So yes, clearly not always. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of fiction fans.

Sara 1:00:13

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter and Instagram at fiction fans pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com

Lilly 1:00:23

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Apple podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live. Thanks again

Sara 1:00:31

for listening and may your villains always be defeated. Bye bye lovely D light falls