Cassiel's Servant by Jacqueline Carey
- Fiction Fans
- Jul 24, 2024
- 25 min read
Episode 150
Release Date: July 24, 2024
Your hosts are joined by Krystle Matar to talk about Cassiel's Servant by Jacqueline Carey, a book that covers the same events as Kushiel's Dart but from another character's perspective. Lilly can't even bring herself to describe it as "the love interest's perspective" due to how there is neither love nor interest in Kushiel's Dart (although Sara disagrees), but Cassiel's Servant was pretty fun. They discuss the huge shift in genre, different characters' priorities, and some retconning.
Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of fictional sexual assault and grooming.
This whole episode contains spoilers for both Kushiel's Dart and Cassiel's Servant.
Find more from Krystle:
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:03
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,
Sara: 0:10
And I'm Sarah, and tonight we are so pleased to welcome Crystal Matar back onto the podcast to talk about Cassiel's Servant by Jacqueline Carey.
Krystle: 0:19
I'm very happy to be here. This is one of my favorite places for podcasting.
Lilly: 0:24
home away from home.
Krystle: 0:25
Yeah, exactly
Lilly: 0:27
I do like that you waved, listeners.
Krystle: 0:29
I forgot.
Lilly: 0:32
sweet. So I'll just narrate everything for our listeners, yeah.
Sara: 0:37
Well, you're used to doing a podcast with video, right? So it makes sense. You've, you've got that ingrained in you.
Krystle: 0:44
yeah, I do. Or, or YouTube lives with, uh, the various live streamers. Those ones are very stressful because if I really fuck up, there's no editing.
Lilly: 0:56
Well, I think we all have a lot of opinions about this book. But before we get into it. What's something great that happened recently?
Krystle: 1:03
I'm on this podcast again with two of my favorite people in the world. That's my great thing.
Sara: 1:09
That is a good thing.
Krystle: 1:11
Yeah, it's nice. We used to do this a lot more often and then we took a break and now I'm back to doing it often again, and I'm happy with that.
Lilly: 1:20
I went camping last weekend, which was lovely. We don't do backpacking like Sarah does. We do car camping. It's my kind of camping.
Krystle: 1:29
I respect it.
Sara: 1:30
You're not hardcore enough.
Lilly: 1:32
know. No, I'm not.
Krystle: 1:33
I feel like I'd like to be a backpacker in theory because it's not so much the exercise that would turn me off but I'm so bad with heat and I feel like I would not survive in California backpacking. I would die. I
Sara: 1:52
because you're up at altitude, so it's cooler, and depending on when you go, there can be thunderstorms in the middle of the day, and that cools things off too.
Krystle: 2:02
would do it then. Okay I'll go, I'll go backpacking with you during rainy season
Sara: 2:07
Okay.
Krystle: 2:07
and I'll go car camping with Lily for the rest of the year.
Lilly: 2:10
pretty delightful. Mostly. Like board games, and reading, and Daniel brings an easel and does a new painting every year. All of these are not things that are backpacking friendly.
Sara: 2:21
I think car camping also probably has better food.
Lilly: 2:24
yes, yes, we do some excellent campfire cooking.
Sara: 2:28
I would disagree though, reading is very backpacking friendly.
Lilly: 2:32
But your phone can die and the books are heavy, so what do you do?
Sara: 2:35
I bring a portable charger and for longer trips I have one of those like solar powered chargers.
Lilly: 2:42
We had one of those, it didn't work very well.
Krystle: 2:44
Yeah, if you do it enough, you invest in a decent one, probably.
Lilly: 2:47
Well Sarah, you already used backpacking for a recent one though, so you have to come up with something new.
Sara: 2:52
I did, I know.
Krystle: 2:54
Justin!
Sara: 2:55
And, uh, I have more backpacking in my future, but that'll be a future good thing. I think my good thing this week is that, so both of the pugs have had an intestinal bug for like the last three weeks. It's been kind of miserable. It's not been a pretty sight. Every time I think they're over it, it comes back. It has come back for Mr. Squeak again, but I think Snorri, knock on wood, Might be over it. So, that's my good thing.
Krystle: 3:26
That is a good thing, getting them over that is a huge thing.
Sara: 3:29
I'm really hoping he's over it, I mean, it's been, it's been a lot.
Krystle: 3:34
That's rough. I
Sara: 3:35
Yep.
Lilly: 3:36
Well what is everyone drinking this evening?
Krystle: 3:38
mean, I've got a beer tonight. It's called Bone Shaker from a brewery down in Toronto. And I swear the reason I drink this beer is because I love the label so much. It's just like a skeleton on a really old fashioned bicycle. Which is kind of a stupid reason to drink beer, but also it's really strong. So it feels like I'm getting my money's worth. Laughter.
Sara: 4:01
That's a fine reason to drink a beer.
Krystle: 4:03
There we go. So yeah, that's what I'm drinking. I'll probably get the whiskey once, once I'm done with the bum shaker.
Sara: 4:09
I was gonna say, I'm drinking whiskey, both because Crystal is, my whiskey sibling is on, but also because they mention peated whiskey in the book. So it's on theme. Theme.
Krystle: 4:19
Yeah, one of these days we'll have to build like a whiskey TBR of like, books that have the correct opinions about alcohol.
Sara: 4:27
Yes. Legacy of the Bright Wash right up there at the top.
Lilly: 4:32
I wanted to go on theme, but didn't have time to go to the store. So instead, I'm drinking the dregs of a boda box of rosé.
Krystle: 4:40
Nice, I respect
Lilly: 4:41
But it has ice in it, and that's kind of what I need.
Krystle: 4:44
is nice. He said it was pretty hot today, so I definitely respect that.
Lilly: 4:49
Well, has anyone read anything good lately? Oh,
Sara: 4:52
ton lately, actually. I finished reading Mad Sisters of Essie. by Tashin Mehta, which I think I talked about in our last episode, and I absolutely adored everything fantasy should be. I'm so pleased that DAW just acquired it and is bringing it over to the U. S. It was originally published by HarperCollins India. Fantastic book, everyone should read it. I also read Corey Fah Does Social Mobility by Isabelle Widener, I believe, which I liked. Was really weird. I'm not entirely sure I was smart enough to get it. It did have basically demon spider Bambi in it. As in Bambi with two spider legs coming out of each hoof. Very odd. But it was a quick read. So,
Krystle: 5:39
Well, that's really weird mental image, Sarah, and I'm stuck on that now, thanks.
Sara: 5:49
You're welcome. I mean, really blame the author for that. I didn't come up with it.
Krystle: 5:56
I guess so, that's true, it's not your fault, you can't be blamed. I've been in one of those reading limbo's where I just keep starting books and not finishing them. And not because there's anything wrong with them, I just like, I don't know, I'm just not connecting at the moment.
Sara: 6:12
You're just not in the right mood for them.
Krystle: 6:15
Yeah, yeah, like, I kind of acknowledge this, like, this is great, but I'm just not, I'm not there with you. I'm not following you where you're going. But, this is gonna sound so egotistical, but I'm not even sorry. I printed out the first chunk of book three, because I've gone back to working on it now, and I just finished reading through what I have so far. And I'm connected to that. I'm really happy with it. It's in better shape than I thought it was when I quit working on it. I was like, this is shit, I'm never going to write again, and I'm a failure. But then I read it now, and it's like, oh, I can fix this. Actually, I know exactly what I need to do, so that felt pretty good.
Lilly: 6:55
that's wonderful.
Krystle: 6:56
Yeah. Okay, good.
Lilly: 6:59
I have done absolutely zero recreational reading. I did not even technically finish this book.
Sara: 7:07
To be fair, we do read a book a week, so that's a lot of reading.
Krystle: 7:12
It's pretty hard to fit recreational reading in amongst a schedule like that. What's the last one you read for the podcast that you really liked?
Lilly: 7:20
We just did Learn to Howl, which was supposed to come out today, that I was camping instead of editing it,
Krystle: 7:27
I don't know, oops,
Lilly: 7:28
Jennifer Donahue, and That book, Sarah had read it before me, and I was like, oh, this is good. And I was like, okay, I believe you. And then I read and I was like, oh, wait, yeah, this is actually really good.
Krystle: 7:39
goodness, yeah, I love that feeling of like going in, expecting it to be good and then it's even better. That's good stuff.
Lilly: 7:47
Now, Cassiel's Servant. I've been asked many times what I'm reading recently, and I have to go on this, like, five minute explanation of, okay, so there's a series that started in like 2000 or something like that. And it was a series of like six books. And then this book is not part of that series, but it is a rewrite of the first first book.
Krystle: 8:08
Was it really six books?
Lilly: 8:10
I don't know. I think there's two trilogies or something.
Sara: 8:12
It's nine books, actually. There's three trilogies. But they are related but independent trilogies, so they follow different characters. It helps to have read the previous books first, but I would say it's not strictly speaking necessary.
Krystle: 8:31
There you go. The more you know. I didn't realize there'd been so many. But Sandra specifically has three.
Sara: 8:37
Yes. She specifically has three. The second trilogy follows her adopted son, and I forget who the third trilogy follows. I think it's the daughter of the queen,
Krystle: 8:53
Oh, interesting.
Sara: 8:54
maybe? Royal I'm pretty sure she's related to that, like, royal line.
Lilly: 9:00
Kushiel's Dart. We had some opinions about it. I think I've probably softened to it over the, uh, has it been a year, two years?
Krystle: 9:08
Two years. Possibly three.
Lilly: 9:10
I'm still not gonna read more of them.
Sara: 9:13
I was gonna say, I think you're only softened to it because I'm not making you read it anymore.
Lilly: 9:19
Maybe.
Krystle: 9:22
I actually want to say the same thing. Like, I feel like I'm less offended. Like I was so in my feelings about it when I read it and I felt really bad after, but I do have to acknowledge that what she did was very good for that market. Like she definitely wrote an. Excellent dense political fantasy. And that's, that is a very specific market and a very specific skill. And all of my grumpy feelings were like, just me.
Lilly: 9:49
I think for me, part of it was It wasn't a book for me, like you said, political fantasy, not my thing. Also, I think we've read more books from the early two thousands that I have now been able to compare to it.
Krystle: 10:04
Oh, okay. So you're like, okay, she was doing the same sort of
Lilly: 10:07
oh no, I I was gonna say that there, there were Sure. Some Edge Lords who thought they were doing something, Carey actually fucking did something. Doesn't mean I liked it, but she did it.
Krystle: 10:22
I'm definitely in the same position as like, she went for something original. And probably blew the boots off of a lot of her contemporaries. And I do admire her for that because I feel like now that I'm a lot further down my own road, I feel like she definitely laid some flagstones of a path that I'm currently walking on. So for that, I, you know, have software for what she did.
Sara: 10:46
was interesting. I think on Castiel's Servant, there was a blurb from Olivie Blake saying that like Cushiel's Dart was one of the forerunners of romanticy or something like that along those lines.
Krystle: 10:59
That's an interesting take because actually it doesn't focus very much on her romantic life.
Sara: 11:03
Yeah.
Lilly: 11:04
There's very little romance at all.
Sara: 11:05
Yeah, I was actually kind of taken aback by that too, because I don't consider Kushiel's dark romanticy, although there is a romantic
Krystle: 11:16
remember that being one of the things that annoyed me, where it's like the sex scene that felt emotionally important in Kushiel's Dart being with Jocelyn. She didn't tell us anything! She skipped over it! I was like, I was like, that's the one I wanted to see! You've been building up for this for so many hundreds of thousands of words and then you skipped it! Yeah, so on that note, I was very pleased to circle around and get back to it finally, a whole last booklet.
Lilly: 11:44
felt like this book was much more romance than Cushiel's Dart.
Krystle: 11:50
this focuses so much on her, even when he's convinced himself that he hates her.
Lilly: 11:56
I will say, I wouldn't call this decadent and dark, which is one of the quotes on the back of my
Krystle: 12:01
Somebody called this dark? Okay.
Lilly: 12:04
Decadent and dark. And I'm like, you're talking about Cushiel's Dart, not this book. Sorry.
Sara: 12:12
someone calling this book decadent and dark is just someone who has not read anything dark ever.
Lilly: 12:18
I think it's a description maybe for the world as a whole, and is being misapplied to this novel.
Sara: 12:24
Yeah, I would believe that.
Krystle: 12:25
which I think kind of pivots in the biggest question that I had for this book is like who is this for? Because tonally it's such a huge switch from Crucial Start. So like I don't know that it would even serve as like an entry point for new readers because if somebody read this and went I like how she focuses her storytelling and then pivoted into Crucial Start they would be like holy fuck this lady's weird. Like, it would just be such a hard left turn for somebody that, like,
Lilly: 12:59
I don't think this is an entry. I don't think you could read this book if you haven't read Cushiel's Dart first.
Krystle: 13:04
Yeah, that was the other thing.
Sara: 13:05
Yes, I agree. I have thoughts on that. Before we get too far into the conversation, I think we should say that we are essentially treating this as a sequel to Kushiel's Dart, which means we're not going to try to avoid spoilers for Kushiel's Dart. And that in turn means that we're not going to have a spoiler section for this book because Kushiel's Dart spoils this book because this book is Kushiel's Dart from another character's perspective. And So, if you haven't read the series and don't want spoilers, this episode is maybe not for you.
Lilly: 13:39
Go listen to Cushiel's Dart. That one I think we did a spoiler section on.
Sara: 13:43
Yes, I think we did. But, Lily, I agree. I don't think this is an entry point into the series. I think that this book is specifically for existing fans of the series. I think there's a lot of information in it that is only half explained. Information and events that's only half explained. And,
Krystle: 14:04
It can't recap, yeah.
Sara: 14:06
it expects you to have read Kushiel's Dart, and it expects you to know Phaedra's perspective, which is much more comprehensive than Jocelyn's.
Krystle: 14:15
Yeah, once he meets up with her there's a lot of scenes where as a reader you know important things are happening and you just do not get to see them. But then, because you've read Kushiel's Dirt, you know, Oh, okay, that's where Phaedra talked to this person. Oh, okay, that's where Phaedra learned this thing. And it's like, when you point it out it feels, yeah, pretty obvious that, you know, I don't know if you could navigate it without knowing what Vader is doing.
Sara: 14:40
Yeah, I mean, like, the first bit of the book where Jocelyn is at his training? Sure, you can read that without any other context, but once he goes to the city, if you don't know what's going on, I think you're gonna be pretty lost.
Lilly: 14:53
It also changes the tone immensely.
Krystle: 14:57
Massively, yes.
Lilly: 14:58
I enjoyed reading this book much more than Cushiel's Dart.
Sara: 15:02
have to say that's probably not hard. Hehehe
Lilly: 15:07
fantasy person. But I am neutral on that, in a way I am not neutral on political fantasy. Hehe.
Krystle: 15:13
Yeah, I think any quibbles that I have with this book come down to my personal taste as a reader. So I would like to put that disclaimer on early on so I don't have to keep saying it. There are ways in which she chooses her focus that I don't care for. Or rather, there are ways in which she chooses her focus that I feel like the stuff that I wanted. Got left behind. For example, I learned very much that as a reader, I like to see things happen and draw my own conclusions, if that makes sense. So it's like in the first section of the book, when he's in his training, it's a very hands on story in that he is sitting with people, meeting them, he's being trained, he's having interactions and we are learning his world through him and because he's directly involved with everything that's going on. I felt like I really understood what was going on even when sometimes someone talks about politics and he goes, but I had no idea what he was talking about. I was like, yeah, buddy, you would be both. And so for that section of the book, I really loved it. And her skills as a writer are very clear all the way through. But then when it pivoted into once he met up with Phaedra, suddenly the book relied on a lot of things that he doesn't get to see. And the more of those things stacked up, the harder it was for me to be invested. And I want to be really clear that, like, I get that that's realistic for a soldier. Sometimes. In these situations, people have to respond to things that they don't see. So I don't fault her for making the choice. It's just for me as a reader, every time something happened off screen, I felt a little bit less connected. And it slowly whittled away my investment in how it was going.
Sara: 17:08
I think that that really has to do with this not being for people who aren't fans of the first book. And like for myself, I love the original trilogy. I love the sequel trilogies. I really enjoyed this book. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, partly because it's not as politically focused, and I just really enjoy that more. But it was fascinating for me to read a book from the perspective of someone who reacts to things without actually knowing what's going on. Like it was just, it was a really interesting choice.
Krystle: 17:45
part of it was well done. Yeah.
Lilly: 17:47
I loved that all the politics were off screen, because I could not care less. And it was interesting to me that you said the book is relying on things happening off screen, because I would actually argue that this book is focused so much on Jocelyn as a character. So, yes, I agree. While there are world events going on that he is involved with, sort of tangentially, what we really care about is him growing as a person over time, because of various situations he's been put into.
Krystle: 18:21
struggling to grow as a person.
Lilly: 18:23
so hard.
Krystle: 18:24
He's so useless. I had to keep reminding myself how young he is and it actually makes sense that he's that useless because sometimes stuff would come up and he would do the stupidest thing possible and be like, man, aren't you elite? Like get your shit together.
Sara: 18:39
He is such a dum dum.
Krystle: 18:41
But it tracks, it tracks for how young he is. I had to check myself and like tell myself to stop being so bitchy about
Lilly: 18:50
in this book?
Krystle: 18:51
Is he even that old?
Lilly: 18:53
Well, he has his gap year.
Krystle: 18:55
He has a gap year.
Lilly: 18:56
After he graduates from Cassaline school,
Sara: 18:59
Yeah, so Castling School is what, seven years? Which would mean he's seventeen at the end of that, so then he's eighteen after his gap year. So, nineteen when he goes off to guard Phaedra?
Krystle: 19:11
Oh, so he was training other students for fully a year?
Lilly: 19:16
at least a full year. It might have been longer than that.
Sara: 19:19
I thought it was a year, yeah. Or about a year. But either way, I mean, 19 18, 19, 20, that's
Krystle: 19:27
Stupid, stupid. Yeah, and the fact that he spent the time training rather than experiencing real world stuff does lend credence to this fact that he's totally incapable of handling any problems.
Sara: 19:42
Yeah, like, his order is so isolated, both in terms, I think just geographically, like it sounds like they're kind of middle of nowhere, but also emotionally disconnected from the rest of the world.
Krystle: 19:56
Yeah, they don't want the, the students patch or what's, what's the word fraternize with the locals too much. So it tracks, but then also, it also comes up with like a logic issue to me where it's like, if he's this useless on his first posting, why aren't they training these kids better if they expect them to be the lead? You know what I mean? Like,
Lilly: 20:18
Well, I wonder if that's because of the nature of the post itself. I mean, if his job was just guard the king, there's not a lot of decision making there, right?
Krystle: 20:29
Oh, I guess so. That does make sense. You're not meant to navigate politics.
Sara: 20:34
I think he just gets really unlucky with his, or lucky depending on how you look at it, with his posting, in that it demands from him a whole set of skills that he's not had the opportunity to learn.
Krystle: 20:46
She just laughed. This poor kid. And so as a character, I did really like him. Except, I did find the weird, insistent sex shaming to be tiresome. And so that, that was another part of why I wondered who it was for. Cause it's like, one side of the coin is that it's clearly not for newcomers. But the other side of the coin is that people who like Kushiel's Dart, it's for people who like Kushiel's Dart. Probably did enjoy that it was quite sex positive. And so to flip and read this, like, not only is it sex shaming, but the book constantly diminishes their expectations of women in general. And it was just like, man, I could have read like a hundred other books that had this tone. Why, why am I here?
Lilly: 21:31
I do need to quibble that it is very clearly Jocelyn who has those opinions.
Krystle: 21:38
Yes. Jocelyn and well, his, uh,
Lilly: 21:41
whole order sucks. We can get behind that. But, like, so much of the book is about him realizing that that's stupid and bad. And so, yes, we do have to set up the foundation. And that took a very long time. But his growth wasn't very enjoyable for me.
Sara: 21:58
He does grow and he does come to appreciate it, or he does come to,
Krystle: 22:03
break his vows.
Sara: 22:06
I was, I was going to say that sex is not inherently a bad thing.
Lilly: 22:09
Well, he just comes out and says it. Hold on. You keep going. I'll find it
Sara: 22:14
Even when he is more sex positive at the end of the book, he still kind of is kink shaming Phaedra for her BDSM tendencies.
Krystle: 22:29
Yeah, and I guess that part made me wonder like I don't necessarily have issue with the concept of it as a starting point In a character growth. It's more for somebody who enjoyed Kushiel's Dart I had wondered if that would be tiresome. So for you who enjoyed Kushiel's Dart The tone switch of it being a shameful thing Did you find it tiresome too or is that just something that you're used to as a reader or?
Sara: 22:56
I don't know if I would say that I found it tiresome, per se. I definitely found it odd. Like, I was expecting it, because obviously this is from Jocelyn's perspective, and we know from Cushiel's Dart what he is like about sex and where he comes from, so it wasn't a surprise. And it was very, very clearly his perspective, not the world around him.
Krystle: 23:23
Yeah, for sure Yeah,
Sara: 23:26
that clear. But it was There was a little bit of a disconnect between what I knew of the world and what I was seeing from his perspective. And so that was a little odd.
Lilly: 23:45
Because if you just jumped into this book without any context, you might think that the book was saying, yeah, people who have sex are bad people and stupid and dumb and make bad decisions. But because you've read an entire novel or nine books, Setting up the fact that that is not the case.
Krystle: 24:06
and Jocelyn's order is just like excessive over the top of this shit. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess when you have a big enough platform, you absolutely can write specifically to your platform and maybe in a way like my own writer brain of how do you market something like this was getting in my way.
Lilly: 24:28
I pulled out a quote on page 176, which, to be fair, could be a whole ass book. But in this case, it's page 176 out of 500. So we're not even halfway through. And this book just comes out and says it on the page. There are disadvantages to being raised among boys and men whose worth is measured by their fighting skills. We're not taught to recognize different kinds of strength, nor that the deadliest weapons are not necessarily made of steel. So,
Krystle: 25:00
What was that? Do you remember what the context for that was? Like where, cause I feel like I remember that, but then also
Lilly: 25:07
so this is after Delaunay has died, and he has realized how in the shit Phaedra has been,
Krystle: 25:16
And he missed, Jocelyn specifically missed so much of it.
Lilly: 25:20
yeah. But Phaedra knew what was going on, and he's like, Oh shit, she's competent, I have fucked up. And then he also echoes his buddy Selwyn earlier on, is talking about politics and talking about Melisande, and is like,
Krystle: 25:34
She's just a woman. Yeah. That came up a couple times.
Lilly: 25:37
I doubt she's a serious player in the game. After all, she's just a woman. Jocelyn meditates on that quite a bit.
Krystle: 25:45
And it was pretty quickly that actually, that was a stupid thing to say.
Sara: 25:50
Again, it's wild for people who have read Kushiel's Dart. And the other thing, I think this is basically just going to be a long podcast essay on why this is not an introductory book to the world.
Lilly: 26:03
You can only go that far if you have such an established world to play
Sara: 26:07
Yeah, but I was going to say the interesting thing to me is how kind of comparatively minor Melisande is in this book. Like, we meet her, I think, twice. She's mentioned briefly a couple of times, a handful of times. But she doesn't actually have a huge presence in the book. On page,
Krystle: 26:29
No, not at all.
Sara: 26:30
and then you compare that to Cushiel's Dart and just the, the,
Krystle: 26:35
She very much drives that, that book. Yeah.
Sara: 26:38
the different character focuses and who gets the page time. It makes very much sense for the two characters of Phaedra and Jocelyn, but it's very different.
Krystle: 26:51
Which, I mean, to her credit, is a skill. The skill of knowing that she can't just tell the audience what she wants them to know, because Jocelyn wouldn't know that. I have to applaud how consistent she is with her own character building. Because you're right, and actually I don't think I even noticed what you just pointed out because I remember Melisandre so clearly from Kushiel's start. Even, I think it was three years ago, guys. Like,
Lilly: 27:20
Everything is one or more years, and I just never specify.
Sara: 27:24
I will look it up on our calendar.
Lilly: 27:26
been a while, yeah.
Krystle: 27:27
Yeah, and so, like, even, I remember specifically, like, where I was in time and space the first time this book mentions Melisandre, and Selwyn saying her name and, like, dismissing her, and I was like, little does he know. This whole story, and I don't think I even realized that I was doing that. Like, how much I was filling in those gaps as somebody who's read Kushiel's Dark. So kudos to you for noticing, but also, yeah, yeah, you're right. If somebody didn't know that name, I don't know if the book would even work for them as a cohesive story.
Sara: 28:03
So we recorded our Kushiel's Dart episode March 12th,
Krystle: 28:08
Okay, so two years ago.
Lilly: 28:10
Two ish, yeah.
Krystle: 28:11
Two and change.
Sara: 28:12
Two and a quarter.
Krystle: 28:13
I'm surprised I remember it as clearly, which, I mean, circles back to like an author thing where people don't have to love your book, but if you live in their head, run free, you've done something right.
Lilly: 28:24
Yeah. Absolutely.
Krystle: 28:26
I don't remember what else I read two ish years ago, to tell you the truth.
Lilly: 28:31
Well, I think what we're circling around is that this book just simply isn't a standalone.
Krystle: 28:37
Yeah.
Lilly: 28:38
Like, it's not. If you have nine novels, or even just one, ahead of time establishing this very sex positive society, you can take the risk. Of going, like, really far in the other direction for 200 pages. Because you've built up that trust with your reader by then.
Sara: 28:58
And I think, to your point, Krystal, about how does one market this, I think one markets this by knowing that you have a huge fanbase for the original trilogy, which Jacqueline Carey does, and so I feel like this is a passion project that she was able to do because she is this big name author, and so she doesn't necessarily need to market it to new people.
Lilly: 29:26
I mean, that's the same thing with any sequel, right? You don't expect someone to read a sequel who hasn't read the first book.
Krystle: 29:32
Yes, I guess, to me, what tripped me up is not thinking of it as a series continuing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lilly: 29:41
Well, because it's not continuity in time, right? It goes back in time, which feels like it should be, Okay, then this is also a beginning.
Krystle: 29:49
Yeah, but it's not. I think you're right in that case where you wouldn't expect somebody to pick up a book two without marketing book one at them and I think this book kind of falls into that same zone of it serves as new content for people who did love the first trilogy at least.
Sara: 30:07
And I think, like, you can look at fanfiction, right, and there's plenty of fanfiction that's the original work just regurgitated from someone else's perspective, or from a different character's perspective, and there's a big readership for that, an appeal for that. And I think that that's what this is, it's just done by the author, it's not fanfiction.
Krystle: 30:30
Yeah, yeah, but it's just like a chance to go back to the world that you love so much and experience something new.
Lilly: 30:37
And, okay, not devil's advocate exactly, but from my perspective, someone who did read Cushiel's Dart, because it's a big name fantasy book and it's worth to take a risk on those, even if you don't think it's necessarily for you, because the tone and genre of this was so different, I ended up liking it quite a bit more. I don't think I would read Cushiel's Dart just to read this book, but I did read Cushiel's Dart. I didn't love it, but this book is different enough that it was worth a second try. In the way that the second book in the Kushiel's Dart series is not.
Sara: 31:12
For you.
Lilly: 31:13
For me!
Krystle: 31:14
Yeah, and certainly any of the problems that I have that I'll gripe about is simply taste rather than skill. Because definitely she is a very good writer. Like, her world building is incredible.
Lilly: 31:28
And I loved that we focused on one character in this. Like, this was so much more of a personal story than Cushiel Start was, which is absolutely my jam. There's the, like, pining. There's angst and pining in this book that we do not get in Cushiel Start.
Krystle: 31:46
Yeah, I really liked, I really liked Jocelyn. And I remember, I seem to remember I really liked him having read Kushiel's Dart as well. Because that's why I agreed to this, I think.
Sara: 31:57
It wasn't because you both love me very much.
Lilly: 32:01
That, 90 percent that.
Krystle: 32:04
I wouldn't have done it if it weren't for an opportunity to come talk to you, but I think because I liked Jocelyn in the first one, I did really enjoy it. I could have done an entire book about his training and been perfectly happy, and then he goes off to meet Phaedra, and the book ends, and then you have to read Crucial Start, you know what I mean? Like, I would have taken this as a full prequel and been very happy. I thought the way that his training did the heavy lifting of his world building was really well done and I feel like mentally I was taking some notes and coming back to it after reading kind of adjacent to the genre for a long time, coming back to it and reading that first section, I was like, Oh man, I miss, I miss this genre. I'm really digging this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to read some more stuff like this.
Sara: 32:56
His training montage, if you can call it a training montage, the, you know, first 170 pages, really reminded me of the very first half of Inda by Sherwood Smith.
Lilly: 33:08
said the same thing! Well, that and Master in Command.
Sara: 33:12
I have not read
Lilly: 33:12
Stranger, sorry, Stranger to
Sara: 33:14
Stranger Stranger To Command, yes.
Lilly: 33:17
Completely different book.
Sara: 33:19
Very different books. Stranger To Command, also by Sherwin Smith.
Lilly: 33:23
He even does the, like,
Sara: 33:25
The War Games!
Lilly: 33:26
the war games! Yeah! I was like, this is just Indah in a different world. Not just. I enjoyed it. I think because I liked Indah, I got some, like, weird backlash nostalgia for it.
Sara: 33:40
Residual good feelings.
Krystle: 33:43
I'm trying to think if I, if it made me think of anything, I didn't think of anything specific, but totally and the focus of it and his training and his growing up, it did have a very nostalgic, this is why I really love this genre vibe to it that I really, I sunk into it really fast. And like, people were so surprised that I was enjoying it, right? Because it's like, oh, this is the plot twist. I did that. I that. But, but even, you know, whatever I didn't like about Kushiel's art that was not a skill issue on her part, it was, it was a big problem. It's not you, it's me.
Sara: 34:21
Well, I mean, there can be really good books that you just don't vibe with.
Krystle: 34:25
Yeah.
Sara: 34:26
And there's no shame in that. That's, that's just what being a reader and being an individual is all about. Like we all have different tastes.
Lilly: 34:34
I did. Okay, I've, I've spent several minutes now justifying why it's chill that Jocelyn and the Casselines are so repressed and big ol prudes.
