Author Interview: The Redemption of Morgan Bright by Chris Panatier
- Fiction Fans
- Apr 24, 2024
- 42 min read
Episode 137
Release Date: April 24, 2024
Your hosts are joined by Chris Panatier to cover his latest novel, "The Redemption of Morgan Bright." They talk about maintaining mystery in a past tense 1st person POV, suspect character motives, and incredible marketing websites. They also discuss the allure of asylum stories, weaponized "healthcare," and how distressingly close to reality this horror scenario is.
Find more from Chris here:
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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:04
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.
Sara: 0:09
And I'm Sarah, and I am so delighted to welcome back Chris Panatier onto the podcast to talk about The Redemption of Morgan Bright, his new horror novel, even if it's a horror novel, and I'm not a horror person.
Chris: 0:23
Thanks for having me, you guys.
Lilly: 0:25
Ah, always a delight. And before we start talking about this book, what's something great that happened recently?
Chris: 0:31
Well, it's a little thing, but I'm going to AuthorCon next week, which is a convention for horror writers and readers, and the happy thing is that I got my books in the mail, so I actually can bring them there, because I was just, like, terrified that I wouldn't get them on time, or I wouldn't be able to get them there, and I have two giant suitcases behind me that I'm gonna lug onto a plane and check that luggage and pay the extra fee for all the weight of just, like, giant luggage full of books. But I was on the phone with Penguin Random House, and I'm like, okay, like, you guys are sure it's gonna go out, because it's not released yet, but the publisher has said I could, I could sell these at AuthorCon, and they're like, yeah, we got you, like, calm down. And And they actually arrived. So I was very happy about that. I'm very relieved. So that was something good that happened to me this week.
Sara: 1:18
That is excellent. I imagine that the stress of not knowing if they're actually going to get there in time is not fun.
Chris: 1:25
Oh, totally. I mean, I've seen other writers who have paid for like a vending table to have their books and some of the books come in and some of them don't. That's why I'm like hand lugging mine there, you know, and it's going to be a pain in the butt, but they'll be with me.
Sara: 1:40
Yeah.
Lilly: 1:41
you also gonna stash some in your carry on so even if your luggage is lost you'll have a couple?
Chris: 1:45
So let me tell you something about carry ons. I actually, I have taped a packing tape handle. onto one of the Penguin Random House boxes. And I am carrying one whole box with me on the plane with my backpack. So I'll have one box of 20 books
Lilly: 2:04
No matter what!
Chris: 2:06
goes bad. Yep. Yep.
Lilly: 2:07
Like, chained to your wrist like the briefcase full of cash. Like, never leaving your side.
Chris: 2:12
Yeah, pretty much. Well, I mean and that thing like it sets my spine off as I'm walking. It's so heavy So, I mean the things we go through for our for our books
Lilly: 2:23
Yeah, you should make a second packing tape loop and then wear it as a backpack over both shoulders.
Chris: 2:28
Okay, that's pretty hilarious now So I'll already have a backpack on this could be big loops a second backpack Like a hunch on my backpack and people would just be like who's that strange person?
Lilly: 2:40
Well, fantastic mental image. I hope you do that. Or if you don't, tell me you did it and I'll pretend.
Chris: 2:46
Sure, sure. Well, I, apparently, I've, in my short time of convention going as a writer, I've already established somewhat of a reputation of unintentional idiocy. I can, I can, yeah, I, I, I accidentally crashed a wedding. at StokerCon. I was very hungry. I thought there was a con suite. I went looking for a con suite because some of these cons have like a little suite with snacks and stuff, right? I went looking. I found one and it was amazing. It was so amazing. It had different types of sandwiches and had drinks and big giant like cookies. And there was no one in there and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. And I, like a little dainty prince, I set up my computer and I mixed an Arnold Palmer with iced tea and lemonade. This was, this is so terrible, guys. And then I got two, like, sandwich halves and I sat down and I wrote and I, yum, yum, yum, yum. I ate my sandwiches and I ate that big giant cookie and I was all done and I packed up and I left and then I was downstairs and And some of my friends, some of my new friends I just met, were talking about how hungry they were. And I was like, guys, there's the most amazing con suite on the second floor. You got to check it out. And they're like, there's not a con suite. I'm like, no, there is. I just ate there. And they're like, well, there's a wedding. Did you just eat the wedding's food? And it turns out that I did, but so I, did commit theft. It was. It was well intentioned. It wasn't on purpose, but I did that. And so if I did something stupid at the next con, I think most people would just sort of roll their eyes and move on. Cause it's, it's already happened.
Sara: 4:22
Well, now there's a tradition, right? You have to do something.
Chris: 4:25
I know, I know, but you know, it's got to come natural. It's got to be organic. You can't force these things.
Sara: 4:30
It's true.
Lilly: 4:31
That's true. There's nothing cringier than someone trying too hard to be quirky.
Chris: 4:35
Exactly. That's the worst. I mean, I, you know, I still visit Austin, Texas and Austin's a great town. It used to be naturally weird. Now all the corporate interests have taken over and now they market in weird. It's like become a commodity and it's very forced. It's like if a town was an influencer, it would be Austin, Texas. You know? Like a product influencer. And I still love going there. It's, it's an awesome town, but it has lost some of that magic. And now they sort of just, they sort of deal in it now. So again, I think about Austin when I think about my own reputation, I've just got to take these things and let them come if I embarrass myself. Great. If not, then I wait till next time. It's sure to happen again.
Lilly: 5:19
It's only a matter of time, right?
Chris: 5:20
It's a matter of time. I mean, with me, it's, that's a fact.
Lilly: 5:23
Oh, incredible. Sarah, can you top that?
Sara: 5:26
No, I can't, I can't top that. There's no way I could top any of that. But one of my bearded irises has started blooming, and it's very pretty, and I'm very pleased.
Chris: 5:36
That brings me great joy. I'm kind of an amateur gardener. I love flowers and I love planting stuff. I'm kind of a sedum person, but that brings me great joy. That's awesome.
Sara: 5:46
Yeah, it's, I, I planted a lot of them. The one that has bloomed is like, it's a very dark purple with like a little bit of gold in it. Very pretty. It does kind of blend into, it's next to a rose, and it kind of blends into the color of the new foliage. So it's not immediately evident, but it is blooming.
Chris: 6:08
Oh, that's very pretty. I love that. I have some white ones. They're not, I don't know, I don't think they're bearded. They're just some sort of irises that were here when we moved in and just keep coming back. And they're white and they're pretty, but I'd like some purple ones. That'd be nice.
Sara: 6:20
Yeah, I, I like the really dark ones.
Lilly: 6:23
Mine is also yard related. My husband's brothers came over last weekend and helped us chainsaw some stumps out of our yard. So that was a very long time coming. I felt bad because they keep trying to grow back every year. They send up all this new growth and I'm like, No, we're trying to kill you. Stop.
Chris: 6:42
That gives me such mixed emotions. Cause we just, we just had to take down a tree that was dying a big, big, beautiful oak tree. And it almost killed me last year. Like a limb fell off like five seconds after I walked under it. And it was, limb was like, you know, a foot thick. And I would have been squashed. No more weddings crashed for Chris. So we had to take it down. That's so sad. And it's got little shoots too. And we're like, no, we can't now. We can't wait a hundred years for you to grow back. We're planting new trees.
Lilly: 7:09
Yeah. Yeah. These, they were already stumps when we moved into the house, but they were not ready to go. I was like, I'm sorry, my friend, your time is done. But we're going to use the wood chips from them to try to grow mushrooms. So fingers crossed that that works.
Chris: 7:24
Oh, heck yeah. cool.
Lilly: 7:27
Circle of life, right?
Chris: 7:28
Totally.
Lilly: 7:29
What is everyone drinking on this gorgeous sunny afternoon? Pineapple cider.
Chris: 7:35
Oh, you're drinking pineapple cider? Yum, I love pineapple.
Lilly: 7:39
it's probably the best fruit.
Chris: 7:41
So is that, that's pineapple cider like with a little touch of alcohol in it?
Lilly: 7:44
is indeed from Schilling, which is a local Washington cider company that I like quite a bit.
Chris: 7:50
Very cool. I, uh, there's my allergies. Play this version of rugby called touch rugby. It's like the flag football or ultimate frisbee of rugby. But anyway, so afterwards we have a few and I just I was handed one today and I was like I have to do an interview and they're like drink and it was uh, it was a hazy ipa I don't i'm not a huge ipa person, but it was pretty good, but it was from manhattan project Brewery, and it was called half life, which I think is pretty cool So I drink that and now i'm drinking coffee out of my plant trees do crimes mug
Sara: 8:23
That is an excellent mug.
Chris: 8:25
Yeah, yeah, so I feel like in light of our tree talk as
Lilly: 8:28
Yeah.
Sara: 8:30
I'm also drinking cider, but it is a non alcoholic cider, but it is made by an alcoholic cider maker. It's the dry, non alcoholic version of their, like, standard. And I found it recently and quite like it because a lot of, like, regular fizzy cider that doesn't have alcohol in it is way too sweet for me. So this is perfect. I'm a big fan.
Chris: 8:51
Now, let me ask, last time we talked, I think one or both of you were doing, you guys were getting either your tea or your beer or your cider by delivery.
Sara: 9:02
Oh, so that was, that was me.
Chris: 9:04
Oh, okay.
Sara: 9:04
have a local cider, um, maker who at the time they were doing hand deliveries. They don't anymore because they've grown to a point where it's just not feasible, which I love that for them. It does mean that I have to pay exorbitant shipping rates, but that's fine. I think last time I paid the shipping, they actually refunded me and delivered it anyway because they're the best. Like, I love them so much. Shout out to Blindwood Cider. They're awesome. So I do still get cider from them, but they only make excellent, delicious alcoholic versions. This is something I can get at the grocery store.
Chris: 9:37
Yeah, okay, awesome.
Lilly: 9:39
Has anyone read anything good lately? Other than, of course, The Redemption of Morgan Wright.
Chris: 9:44
I have. I read two books recently. One is by Laurel Hightower. It comes out the same day as The Redemption of Morgan Bright, actually. From ghoulish books. It's called the day of the door and it's a novella. This is this is not a book for Sarah It's This, this book, there's something about Laurel's writing that always scares me. Like, I have an active imagination. I'm easily scared. I turn out the lights and I'm peeking out of my covers. Like, still. I did it last night. I'm reading Spite House by Johnny Compton, which is fantastic, but Day of the Door is a novella. It's a quick read. There's some imagery in there that is just like, ooh, no, please. But it's great. And then I read, The Last House on Lace Lane Street, which I think comes out next week by Catherine McCarthy, who is in Wales and she is a extremely talented expert sort of on Gothic and it's a modern Gothic. Again, it's a novella and I just loved it. It's about three people that are on a bus. They don't remember why they're on the bus and they are dropped off down the street from this house. And they all sort of go to the house. And it's just fantastic. And it's one of those books that you feel the atmosphere of it the whole time and you just kind of want to go back to it. And Sarah, that one's very doable. It's not terribly frightening but it's got, it's got gothic creepy vibes but it's not like super scary or anything.
Sara: 11:14
Okay, so I probably could do that one. I was thinking as you were talking that none of these books, they all sound wonderful. Maybe not for me, unless Lily makes me read them during spooky month, but.
Chris: 11:26
I don't know if you've ever read The Woman in Black by Susan Hill I think is her name. It was a movie, and a lot of people say it's like the scariest movie they've ever seen. The book, it, The Last House on Lacelean Street kind of gave me women and black vibes, but without all the super scary stuff. So it's, it's just, you know, I never read anything like it. And it's very well done, and I was excited to get back to it every time. So those are the types of books I like, is the ones where I'm like, okay, I'll finish it, you know. Instead of this where I was like, oh goody. I get to get back to this and it's a quick read So that's the last house on Lacelean. It's L A C E L E A N Street by Catherine McCarthy
Sara: 12:08
I'm gonna look that up, or write that down, so I don't forget. Uh, the house at the end of Lace Lane
Chris: 12:16
Yeah, that's it. That's it. That's it. I'm I'm mixing that with Catriona Ward's last house on Needless Street it's the house at the end of Lacelean Street. My apologies. Yeah
Lilly: 12:26
The internet knew what you were talking about
Sara: 12:28
internet did know what you were talking about.
Chris: 12:30
That's the thing you could put in approximations and the internet will tell you what you want
Lilly: 12:34
Will Sarah have you, like I, been buried under solstitia submissions?
Sara: 12:39
Yes. Yes, I have, I have not done much reading besides that.
Chris: 12:44
How's that going?
Sara: 12:45
It's good. Uh, we're still getting through submissions.
Lilly: 12:48
Which is a great problem to
Chris: 12:49
That's
Sara: 12:50
is a good problem to have.
Chris: 12:51
I saw that. That's so cool. That's really, really awesome.
Lilly: 12:54
I think our next problem is going to be, we're going to have to say no to a lot of people. Oh no.
Sara: 13:00
because there's a lot of really excellent pieces that we've gotten, but all of this is entirely funded by us, and we do not have infinite money to throw at writers. Alas.
Chris: 13:11
Writers will take money if you'll throw it at them, though. That's, that's true.
Sara: 13:15
I would like to be able to throw more money at writers.
Lilly: 13:18
Or the same amount of money to more writers.
Sara: 13:21
Yes.
Lilly: 13:22
And yeah, it's been really fun. I mean, I feel like it's a different look at what's going on right now. Because it's like, these are people who are actively writing and submitting work. So it's very different than seeing, like, what people had been submitting to publishers a couple years ago. Plus, our theme is pets in space, so there's a lot of delightful science fiction going
Sara: 13:42
Also a lot of sad science fiction.
Chris: 13:44
I mean, you introduce pets at all, it can only go one of two ways, really.
Lilly: 13:49
Well, speaking of only going one or two ways, The Redemption of Morgan Bright. Chris, you did to me what some books do, where I end up having to stay awake until 2am to finish the book. Because I'm like, well there's only so much left. I can't go to bed now.
Chris: 14:06
Oh, that's a great feeling. That's like the best thing I can hear, you know, truly.
Sara: 14:11
Yeah, it, it was excellent. I, like I've said, I'm not a horror reader at all, but I could not put it down. I really enjoyed it. One of the things, and I, I didn't actually think that it was too overwhelming for me as a non horror reader, And one of the reasons for that, I think, is the way that you break up the story with lots of different formats, right? Like you have the text messages and the interview transcripts and newspaper articles or schematics, and then you also have the regular prose. Can you talk a little bit about your, like, process in doing that?
Chris: 14:47
Yeah, sure. Well, thank you very much. I'm glad you both enjoyed it. This story evolved it as I was writing it. One of the things I've learned over the past couple of years really is I don't really know what my story is or really who my characters are until I've written the first draft and then It changes immensely from draft one to draft two. So I knew that I wanted to dole out information in a granular way. And you know, for some readers, that's not how they prefer to get their information. They want to know what's going on right now. I as a reader love to be held in limbo a little bit. So long as by the end of the book, if there's a solution, I know what it is, or at least that I know the author knew what it was. sometimes you're like, I think they were just screwing around. I don't think there's actually something that happened here that the author knew was happening. It feels like an accident. And I never want to do that. So, I knew where this thing was going to go. I knew how it was going to end for the most part. And, I had all of these kind of threads that I wanted to tie together. And I wanted to dole out the information in different ways. And one of the things I love is I didn't want to give too heavy doses of the prose because when you're in the asylum, in the prose sections, whether it's Charlotte telling you what's going on or whether it's Morgan that's telling you what's going on, they're pretty heavy, I think. They're pretty heavy and those transcript sections, you know, those are all told after the fact. Those are all happening after the fact. And it is, you know, the investigator, and sometimes even Morgan, who's in the interview, when she's Morgan, they're all trying to figure out the same thing the reader's trying to figure out. And so that's a little bit of a nod to the reader, to go, Hey, I know what you're going through. These people are going through it too. We're all in the same boat. We're all trying to figure out what happened out there. And then the text messages came a little bit later because as it evolved, I was like, first, I have to make it conceivable that someone would actually willingly commit themselves to a place. Why would they willingly commit themselves? I had to come up with a reason for that. And the way I wanted to deliver it was through the text messages and tell a separate story between Morgan and her sister Hadley. And I thought, instead of just having prose chapters, why don't I do this through text messages? Because setting isn't super important for that. And, everybody understands text messages, and they also go quick. You understand that arc pretty quickly, the relationship between these two, and I thought it would be really interesting to lay the landscape of a relationship through text messages. There's like two or three flashbacks that Morgan has while she's in Hollyhock that tell some little vignettes of her and Hadley. Some are real, some are imagined, but that's why I did the text messages. And then when it came to the, what did you call them, Sarah?
Sara: 17:48
I said the newspaper articles and then schematics because you
Chris: 17:52
The schematics. Yeah. So I have never called them schematics, which is so dumb. Cause that's what they are. So funny. I wrote this whole book, never once used the word schematics, but that's what they are. So I wanted to give hints of this place and to give some little nuggets that. There's something about this land. There's something about this place. It's not just the people that are involved. There is something that the people are sussing out of the ground here and by giving some of those vague accounts, some of the newspaper accounts, there's an excerpt from a book chapter from an old book about like the French fur trade and then the schematics I wanted to paint a picture of that this place isn't entirely subject to the whims of humankind. There's something bigger here. And I always like that. And I don't want to necessarily explain totally what it is. I wanted something bigger than us. And, you know, I generally try to do that in all my books because it just, it draws me in as a reader. That's the stuff I really, really like. I mean, you know, the biggest influence there is probably Jeff Vandermeer for me. That's kind of what I was trying to do, and I wanted to give lots of angles on this place to give the reader a lot to digest and a lot to feel about this place, and build their own picture about what might be going on under the surface, and hopefully give them a sense of mystery and a sense of wonder about it.
Lilly: 19:21
Speaking of your other books, I feel like out of, is this the third book you've written? Have I read all of them now? Okay.
Chris: 19:27
have, yes.
Lilly: 19:29
They are all eerie and unsettling. Spooky, if you will, in some way. But this book does feel like it really ratchets that up to another level.
Chris: 19:39
I'm glad to hear that. I was trying to, I mean, I set audacious goals for myself and sometimes I set audacious goals that I know I'll never achieve, but I want to aim towards them. And so when I started writing this, I said, I'm going to write the scariest book ever written. Did I do that? I did not. House of Leaves is the scariest book ever written.
Sara: 19:59
you didn't write the scariest book ever written because I don't think I would have enjoyed that quite as much.
Chris: 20:05
And I didn't, but the story that I began to realize this was, didn't call for that either. And the story that I began to follow, as it evolved from me, just wasn't that story. So, there's certainly scary things that happen, but it's not the scariest book ever written, you know. But, yeah,
Sara: 20:23
You talked a little bit about your research process in the acknowledgement section of this book. Like you did quite a lot of research, it sounds like. Did you find that that was different for this book than it was for the previous two, or was it kind of the same process?
Chris: 20:37
this one, it was very different. So, for Phlebotomist, I needed to learn blood, and that's pretty much black or white. It's like, here's blood. Here's how blood works for stringers. The main scientific challenge was trying to develop a faster than light travel method. And I did a lot of research to understand on a basic enough level to put it in spec fiction, quantum entanglement, and kind of my own riff off that. So once I had that, I kind of knew where I was going. This one was a lot harder because this. really is extremely people centric, and it's dealing with real things that happened, even though this is a piece of fiction, this is an outgrowth of our own history, and some of the history I feel like we might be close to repeating in a lot of ways. So I was very sensitive to the fact that I'm, I'm dealing with Real human beings these things have happened to real people and so the first thing I did I you know, I read a bunch of stuff on the internet. I read a bunch of interviews I watched a bunch of interviews which are terrifying even in the most mundane interviews That was the thing that really struck me and you know, the flavor of this book is a little bit 1950s There's a little bit of weird Victorian like all the names are very Victorian. I did that on purpose even though it's Contemporary future I don't date the book, so it happens whenever now is, or a little bit ahead of whenever now is. But I wanted sort of the treatment to feel a little bit arcane, a little bit 1950s ish. And so, in watching those old interviews, the thing that really struck me was not any, like, outward cruelty. What struck me was the leading nature, of these interviews. So you'd have these women who were accused of hysteria or whatever, and most of the time a male doctor questioning them, and just basically saying whatever they wanted to elicit from the patient, and the patient just sort of, in most of these, they seem completely like they've given up. And they're just sort of agreeing with it. And it was like the most, the most heartbreaking thing for me to see, because in seeing these interviews, you also see everything that came before the interview, whatever that is, years in the system, or this is, you know, the patient is just done by this point. And so they're feeding the investigator, whether it's a clinician or a therapist or whatever, kind of whatever they want. And it was the sort of resigned nature of it that really caught me. Captured me even more than any outward cruelty. And so there was that I've course researched the heck out of like all the old crazy crazy methods of treating women that are Completely at odds with each other often, you know, I mean when it comes to like especially like sexual expressions sometimes they're like yes sexually express yourself Because of XYZ and then sometimes they're like, no, that's the devil. Don't do that. And sometimes they'd be like, no, you don't do it, but the doctor will do it for you. And I came out of all of that going, you know, there was a long period of time I'm not gonna say when it ended or if it ever ended where certain practitioners or a swath of Practitioners were just shooting from the hip And pretty much labeling things however they wanted to label them, whatever, you know. And I think that a lot of that wasn't necessarily because they were evil. I think in a lot of cases it was because they were researchers, and they wanted research, and they wanted, they had ideas about a particular conclusion, and they would push these patients in that way. I mean, I think that still happens, but it was certainly very pronounced back in the fifties. I also read a book called Madwives by Carol Warren, which I, I put in the acknowledgements and that one was just a case study of, I think, 18 or 20 women in San Francisco in the fifties, these housewives. And I took a lot from that and put that in Hollyhock, which is the, the asylum and the Redemption and Borgen Bright, because it was outwardly very innocuous. You know, the things that they would do. They would have housework. They would have pageants and beauty shows and stuff like this. And the whole idea of it just, I don't know, I found it so disturbing and unsettling. So I sort of leaned into that a little bit with Hollyhock.
Lilly: 25:14
So the, the way that the reader accesses Hollyhock is through Morgan's Getting herself committed by faking mental illness. And as you mentioned in the afterwards, there was a real instance of this happening. What is it, do you think, that makes that concept so fascinating? Because we see that in media repeating itself. Like, there's something about that that just draws us in as a culture. No
Chris: 25:41
That's a great question. I think the reason is it's twofold. It's extremely rare. The case you're talking about is Nellie Bly from 1887. She's 23. In 1887 and has herself committed to a women's asylum on an island in New York. Like, what kind of amazing courage do you have to do to do that? And you know, they tried to keep her there. Her editor had to, like, get her out. And her story is amazing. She wrote a book called Ten Days in a Madhouse that's widely accessible and public and open source. But, uh, I think the reason people are intrigued by it is because, you know, you hear of primary sources and research, right? It's even, it's like a zero source. It's like even more of primary. Primary source would be interviewing someone who is there. Closer than that would be becoming the source yourself, being the direct eyewitness. And I think that's why it's compelling to people. It's like, I didn't just talk to someone. I went and saw it myself and here's what I saw. And so I think that that's why that type of investigation, you know, embedding, you know, we still have that with journalists and war zones and stuff like that. So it's not new. It's just very rare when it comes to, you know, trying to go behind the walls of a place that's a little bit opaque. That's right, you know, and that certainly happened to Nellie Bly. And she of course says, she reports that, she's like, As soon as I got inside, I just acted my normal self. She kind of faked some stuff to get in. But then she just acted her normal self, and they were like, No, no, no. You are positively demented, we can tell. And those were their terms, you're positively demented. And again, just, okay, I guess, you know, the doctors, whatever the doctors say goes, and that's, you know, I'm not a journalist, I haven't done a bunch of research for modern mental health care, but humans are humans, and so, you know, it wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of that still going on, even though it may be less because we have a little bit more regulation on medical care, but anyway.
Sara: 27:49
I think something that also strikes me is how frequently these like asylum and involuntary commitment stories are so women centric, right? And I wonder, like, is that something to do with autonomy? Or, I don't know what your thoughts are.
Chris: 28:07
Well, I mean, this one, in my original conception, it, it was always a woman's story, you know, from the, from the afterword, that it was heavily inspired by the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, and I didn't feel at the time, I knew I was going to write an asylum story, I already had the kernel of the idea, and I just didn't feel like I could write anything else. I live in Texas, which has just gotten worse and worse and worse. And it's in our face every day, how the treatment of women here. And of course I have a 10 year old daughter. And so I, I couldn't write anything else at the same time. I didn't want to appear to be pandering. I didn't want to appear to be like, Oh, I'm going to, you know, put the flag on this issue. And you know, And I was talking to my agent about it. My agent was like, not only do it, but make sure that all the villains are women too, so that we don't have one of these debates about, oh, is it just the men oppressing women? And I was like, it's a women's asylum. So that was kind of my plan anyway. Second of all because it's contemporary, you know, it's kind of got a weird wellness affect to it. It's kind of goopy almost It's kind of like Gwyneth Paltrow a little bit and I was like, but the men play their part I mean the very first thing you see in the novel is a quotation from the statutes of the state where it's set that basically say A man can have his wife committed for any reason without due process, which those laws have been on the books, especially in the Midwest and the U. S. in the past. So I just, I'm like, yeah, they're doing their part to subjugate women, but it's not just men. I mean, look around the country now at the leadership in the House of Representatives. You know, the worst people on that issue are women, so.
Lilly: 29:59
We don't need men. We can do it just fine on our own.
Chris: 30:02
everybody's doing their part. And also I think that it's important when it comes to inclusion, it's important to go, Hey, yeah, we, we don't just include, but we also don't whitewash that people are people regardless of gender. And you've got good people and you've got bad people. And so I, I didn't want to do something where I whitewashed or purified one side versus the other or anything like that. You know, everybody when it comes to Hollyhock is a bad actor.
Sara: 30:30
Speaking of Hollyhock, I love that Welcome to Hollyhock is an actual website.
Chris: 30:35
You found it. so happy.
Sara: 30:39
we did, we did look at it.
Lilly: 30:42
you put the URL in the book! How can I not immediately google
Chris: 30:45
So let me tell you, look, I have, of course, you know, I built that website. It was funny. I asked my publisher. I was like, I want to build this website. And they're like, go ahead. You want to do it? Go for it. So I did. And of course I see the stats. And you'd be surprised because I've seen how many people, you know, reviewed on Goodreads or NetGalley, you know, lots and lots of people so far, which is a nice little sign, but very few. Clicks on that website. So that you guys went there and checked it out I'm so excited because like, you know what happens to Hollyhock in the book and I was like, they should have an archived website
Sara: 31:23
And it's such an unsettling website too, like it, it goes perfectly with the book. It was, yeah.
Chris: 31:28
you. Thank
Sara: 31:29
I loved it.
Chris: 31:30
Yay, this is the best. That's so awesome. So glad.
Lilly: 31:34
And that's actually a perfect place. We're going to start getting into the spoiler conversation soon. But any listener who's deciding whether or not they want to read this book, check out welcometohollyhawk. com.
Chris: 31:45
Yes
Lilly: 31:46
From what I saw, there was no, like, spoiler information on it. So, like, it's not going to ruin the book. But it will give you a hint of, like, kind of the tone of the, the type of horror you would be getting. So, absolutely recommend checking that out if you're trying
Chris: 32:01
Thanks for that shout. Yeah, and I don't think there's anything spoilery in there at all And yeah, I did just want to conjure the mood of what you're dealing with here You
Lilly: 32:11
Well, before we get to our spoiler conversation, Sarah, who should read this book,
Sara: 32:15
You should read this book if you are looking for an unsettling story about identity, motivations, and bodily autonomy. If you want a little bit of horror, but you're not looking for something super horror like me, this is still going to be a good book for you. You can do it. It's great. You should do it.
Lilly: 32:34
and also a quick little shout out to our Patreon. If you want a follow up conversation after our interview with Chris, Chris Surprise, Sarah and I are going to play Shoot, Screw, or Marry with the poor characters in your very good book.
Chris: 32:48
Oh, this, this is gonna get me cancelled. Let's do it.
Lilly: 32:54
That will be available on our Patreon, usually about a week after the episode comes out, so everyone head over there and check it out.
Chris: 33:01
In this setting, that is truly the worst thing I could ever do, and I'm so excited to do it. Cause it's just, it's pure disaster, so I cannot wait.
Lilly: 33:10
the, the best ones are where there's no good answer. Like,
Chris: 33:13
Yeah, it's not, there's just not here.
Lilly: 33:20
The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Hehehe.
Sara: 33:30
Okay, so the first thing that I noticed that I really, really liked about this book was the way that we get subtle hints from the very start that Charlotte is actually Charlotte and not just Morgan playing Charlotte in the beginning. Like, because I, like, you don't know at first what's going on, but the way that it's just really subtly threaded through the beginning of the story was really, like, excellent.
Chris: 33:56
Oh, thank
Sara: 33:57
That's not a question, I'm sorry that's a statement, but.
Chris: 34:00
that's, that's honestly, I mean, that's very, very validating to hear because the first couple of chapters, yes, it's Morgan's body in this place, but it is Charlotte's mind. And you're told on the back cover, this woman creates a false identity and she goes in. You expect to have this kind of dual track, you know, perspective of, I'm here, I'm faking. But what you get is, hi, I'm here, I'm so excited to be here. Where did I exactly come from? Did I go to college? What's baseball? Like she kind of doesn't know things maybe she should know and I'm glad that that you picked up on that and you're like wait this is Charlotte. Oh thank you.
Sara: 34:39
Yeah, yeah, it was like perfect creepy unsettling beginning.
Lilly: 34:45
Charlotte's character arc was so much. And it's almost crazy to call it a character arc because she is an alternative identity of Morgan. But then it also feels bad to reduce her to that, which is exactly what Morgan and the detective do. But then it turns out, ugh. This is a spoiler section, so I guess I can say it. But the finding out that she had a scheme all along, or maybe not all along, but at some point she developed a scheme and was not just blindly following the doctors and had tricked everyone, including Morgan, felt really nice, especially in this book that is so much about women and agency, that they're like, there was no character in this book that didn't have some sort of agency.
Chris: 35:27
Thank you. I wanted the arc I had for Charlotte was Truly going in like she's telling you the truth Charlotte never is lying when she's narrating right now she might be a little deceptive, but she's never lying about her own feelings and she she was the ideal patient for Hollyhock the way that Morgan had created her and you know from the very first scene when Morgan and Her fake husband are driving to the place and he's like remember, you know, she doesn't cause trouble She's passive yada yada, and she's like, yeah. Yeah, I know I remember because that's telling you who the character is that she's gonna be playing and Charlotte goes in like that But then she really embraces what's going on there and a little bit I, I gotta say, I don't know that it was conscious, but it feels a little bit like how Florence Pugh's character sort of enjoys what's going on during Midsommar at the festivals and sort of is like, yeah, this is, let's do this. And Charlotte, I mean, Hollyhock speaks to her, and it begins to change her and embolden her when she realizes what it's offering, the thing that Morgan, Gave her as her singular motivation, which was to have a family and have a child. When she realized what it was offering, she was going after that at all costs. And yeah, like, you know, you say at the end, and it's a huge spoiler, but she had always planned to allow herself to be insinuated with this spirit. Become pregnant and have a child. The only problem was that she kind of didn't realize there was a stronger pull in that someone else was going to end up being the baby.
Sara: 37:09
Well, and, and speaking of that kind of final reveal that it's not the boy that she wanted, it's Hadley, it's, it's Morgan's sister who's coming back, I feel like the way that she gets her revenge on Morgan for that is so interesting because it feels like Morgan has been horribly violated through this, through this whole process. And she. tries to reclaim a little bit of that autonomy by having Hadley come back and not Jonathan, and then Charlotte, by revealing what Hadley did to Morgan at a very young age, kind of takes the, the triumph away from Morgan, and it ends up being not a happy ending, really.
Chris: 37:57
no, let, let's be clear. Look, she never wanted to have a child. She gives birth to her own sister. This is, this is all bad,
Sara: 38:09
is very bad.
Chris: 38:10
but you're right that, you know, at the end when they both sort of realize that, Oh wait, there's a reason that it was Hadley. that she was insinuated by and not Jonathan the boy. Morgan has a little bit of a triumph there. Cause she's like, I can finally beat you. I can finally get rid of you. And Charlotte is the primary problem because she's basically, she's basically going to snuff Morgan out, right? She's going to take away her identity completely. But then when her goal is gone, Charlotte's like, peace out, fuck you. Here's a bit of information that you're not going to like, right. And, um, tells her the truth about Hadley. And I went through so many different ways to end this and I, I mapped them all out. And this was the one that I think was the truest to the story. And that also in the subject that I'm talking about, there. are no happy endings. And also, I love the idea, going back to the question of autonomy in Charlotte, that even though she's, you know, Morgan is constantly like, you're a two dimensional, you're not real. And Charlotte of course becomes very, very real. And, and Morgan, even at the end reflects and she says, I'm the two dimensional character now, you know, she's real and Morgan is about to give up. And I love that Charlotte has this last flash even though it's like purely like it's awful But she has this last flash of autonomy this last thing she can do to affect Morgan by giving her this piece of information that Morgan recognizes as soon as she sees it in her mind is true about Hadley So what I really liked about this is both characters were fighting for what they wanted The whole time and trying to kind of annihilate each other, but I loved the fearsomeness of it. And it kind of feels like this is what happens when you screw with people's autonomy and you screw with people's identity. It doesn't end well. It shouldn't end well. You shouldn't tell a story where, Oh, that ends well. It sends the wrong message, but I wasn't trying to, you know, that's the other thing too is look I've got a message But I wasn't trying to broadcast the message in any way. I wasn't trying to whack people over the head I don't believe in doing that. But for this story, I think that the very end Charlotte's last little curveball She throws at Morgan it originally it wasn't there. I thought about that in one of the very late edits wasn't originally there. The baby that Charlotte didn't want came, and Morgan was able to force her down the drain. But then I was like, wait a minute, there's another dimension to Hadley that I feel is there. Hadley to that point is, she seems like the perfect person, right? The perfect sister. Everything is perfect. But no one is. And so that kind of just came to me and that was where I was like Oh, i've just done a super twisty like katrina ward style back and forth, which she's i'm a huge fan of her So if I could do anything like that, that'd be awesome
Lilly: 41:16
It also adds something, because through this whole book, There's this conversation around how Morgan, committing herself to this asylum, is just trying to atone for what she put Hadley through. And she always feels like no matter what bad stuff happens to her, there's part of her that like, feels a little justified. Like, well, I'm doing the right thing, so it's okay. This is for Hadley. And then Charlotte takes that away because Hadley is not the poor victimized sister that Morgan has to atone to. And so she doesn't even get that anymore. Poor her.
Chris: 41:50
Right and now you know the way it ends she's got her sister back and It's going to be really fucking weird, right? Because I've laid this foundation that these insinuated infants that grow very fast back to whatever age they were when they died. And they're gonna have some conversations at that point. If, you know, who knows, if the authorities don't come hunt them down or whatever. I don't know what's gonna happen. But, yeah, everything that Morgan wanted keeps getting taken away from her. But at the same time, Charlotte is very perceptive. Maybe because they're the same person. And she tells Morgan at one point, she's like, All you really wanted to do was kill yourself. All you really wanted to do was kill yourself. Basically, take penance for what you did in sleeping with Hadley's husband and driving Hadley crazy. You wanted to atone for it, but you're too cowardly to do it like someone with real honor would do. You just figured you'd come here and end up dying. So I like how Charlotte needles her at every point. It's like, no, that's not actually what you ca you didn't come here to solve a crime.
Lilly: 42:55
You mentioned this a little bit in the non spoiler conversation, but there are sort of two mysteries happening in this book. There is the one that's in world, right, of Morgan and the detective trying to unravel what happened at Hollyhock. And there's also the reader going through the mystery of what happened between Hadley and Morgan. And you layered these together very well in that we're discovering them both, but neither overshadows the other.
Chris: 43:23
Well, I didn't want to be too heavy handed with it. Yeah, once the detective, you know, says hey, we've got your text messages and he kind of gives them to her And she's like, I know what they fucking say and he's like, okay, so what's the big deal? You know people cheat on their spouses all the time But that is the root of her guilt because it led to Hadley ending up at Hollyhock when her husband had had enough but I also didn't want to like Repeatedly hit it on the you know, the head of the nail As to what happened. And so there's a lot of kind of insinuation in those text messages about what happened. They never really come out and say it at all in the text messages. It's really the detective who comes out and says, okay, you slept with Hadley's husband. And I didn't want it to be some big period. I also kind of wanted to normalize human conduct a little bit that yeah, you could judge how someone behaves in a relationship, but someone isn't. evil because they made a mistake like she made. So I kind of wanted him to actually be kind of the voice of reason a little bit and be like, I see this shit all the time, but you didn't have to go do this. But at that point, she still had a very, very sort of fictionalized, fantasized idea of who her sister was. So it was her way of answering who her sister was and answering for her own conduct by, you know, having herself committed. She also kind of thought maybe she'd figure it out, but Charlotte was mostly right about why she did it.
Lilly: 44:54
You mentioned that, at that point, Morgan didn't know the end of the story, which is kind of wild, because she's the one telling the story after it happened to her. And the way you handle that with the, basically, the trauma, she doesn't really remember it until she's going through it step by step, was such an interesting way of giving us a first person, past tense story without me as the reader getting very frustrated that the narrator wasn't telling me, even though they obviously would already know.
Chris: 45:22
Well, you know I had to thread that needle But that's why I had Charlotte tell her because this is clearly a buried and manipulated memory Not only was Hadley the reason that Morgan, you know, shattered her arm as a little tiny little kid Hadley was the reason Morgan thought it was Morgan and not Hadley because Hadley took every opportunity to edit the story every time she told it. And you know, how much do you really remember from when you're four or five years old, right? If someone's there every day telling you what happened, that's what you're going to remember. So Charlotte's like, look, I have access to your subconscious. Like I could show you what really happened. I could show you that memory. So that was the only way I felt to do it that was plausible. Instead of you just going, Oh, like Morgan knew her sister was this all along, then that makes no sense. She wouldn't have done any of this stuff if she actually knew who her sister really was. That would have come up in the text conversations. You know, I became a drug addict because of you, basically. Because you weren't honest to me, and you gaslighted me my whole life. So, that's why I had to do it with Charlotte.
Sara: 46:28
A little unrelated to all of that. I just want to say, poor Darius did not deserve to die offscreen or at all. I'm very mad about that. How could you?
Chris: 46:39
I'm sorry and I'm glad you're mad about it. You should be. He was the loyal friend, you know, who basically was kind of blackmailed by Morgan into doing it because she was like, I'm going on my own and, and she knew he wouldn't let her go on her own. So, you know, again, these are characters with several dimensions and, you know, Morgan has been victimized. Morgan goes through some serious shit in this book and, but at the same time she manipulated. Darius to get him along and to make it so that she could get committed to this place after she's been manipulated by Hadley. I mean, so, no, we all feel bad for Darius because he's the only one that, like, kind of has clean hands in this thing
Lilly: 47:22
That we know of. Who knows what he did off page.
Chris: 47:25
that we know of who built the swing set. Maybe it was Darius.
Sara: 47:31
At least the cat is okay. I appreciated that.
Chris: 47:34
Man, the cat is fine. Dr. David Bowie. The cat. Yes.
Lilly: 47:39
You got me. Because there's that one, like, sort of vision, dream sequence. And it wasn't clear at that point to me if it was a flashback, if, like, what was going on. And I was like, this poor cat. Oh my god. I was very upset for about the, like, five pages it took for that to be resolved.
Chris: 48:00
Yeah, that one that was in the cabinet right that's like one of the first cabinet scenes Yeah, I was like I need to like really fuck up this cat but not for real
Lilly: 48:11
Yeah.
Chris: 48:13
Like the cat had appeared in like the text messages and stuff and I'm like I'm gonna put the cat on the screen for a minute
Lilly: 48:19
I was reading this book with both cats on my lap, and I was like, holding them like, no.
Chris: 48:25
Well, everything's okay, because Dr. Bentham took the cat.
Lilly: 48:29
So one question I found myself lingering over after I finished reading this book probably doesn't have a yes or no answer. But I have it. It's about the employees of Hollyhock, the people working there, and whether they truly believed in what they were doing or not, I really can't tell. I think Dr. Althea, I've sort of come down on the side that she was just awful, and she had this thin veneer of doing something for good reasons, but don't think that was genuine. But the orderlies, because we don't know how much they knew. Like, did they really believe they were doing a good thing? I don't know. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Chris: 49:10
so, there's probably not a super clean answer to that, but it's a good question because you've got the North Wing and the South Wing, and the only really two orderlies in the South Wing are Heddy and Aunt Mom, or Mammy. And those two know what's going on. Like, Hetty and Mammy, they're the ones that are down there. They know exactly what's going on. But the ones in the North Wing, I think it's not important to necessarily know if they know what's going on. But I think they truly believe in what they're doing. So whatever school they are part of, as far as how they treat these people, I think they genuinely believe that. Because, of course, I think they truly believe in what they're doing. Only some of the women are brought to the Southway, and I do believe that they fundamentally believe that how they're treating these women, whether it's through the home skills, or housework, or the group sessions, or whatever, I truly do believe that they think this works. This is gonna do the trick. I'm not sure about Enid. I think Enid might be the one crossover employee who kind of plays both wings. Because she sort of is the one that participates in the identity stripping to really break them down, which of course Morgan remembers a third of the way through the book. And so I, I, I can't say that Enid is innocent in any way.
Sara: 50:28
Enid is pretty terrible.
Chris: 50:29
pretty bad. And Enid is also one that brings them to the South Wing. So you don't, you don't see any of the others. So she's pretty much the fulcrum between North and South Wing. So I would put Enid in that group. But you know, you guys have read my books. You know, I like comeuppance.
Lilly: 50:48
Mhmm. Yeah, I, like, I don't know, there's a lot of rhetoric in the South Wing about why is Morgan, or Charlotte, being so selfish he could really help these people with sad lost loved ones. And I'm like, I, I don't, do they think, do they really believe that? I don't know. You don't have to answer, that's just the question that's lingering in my
Chris: 51:09
I think on that issue, I believe they truly believe
Lilly: 51:12
Right? Yeah, I think that
Chris: 51:14
Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I think Hedy and Mammy are like, you have the opportunity to give people a gift to bring back their loved one. I think it's Mammy at one point who says when Morgan is kind of objecting as Charlotte once she's herself again, you know And Charlotte's off doing whatever Charlotte's doing and Mammy is like I'm jealous That you have this opportunity and I don't you know, this is important So they're not just there to torture these people. They I they genuinely believe it and I mean it is Functionally, it's a cult except that of course You know, when Morgan says, this is a cult, you know, Dr. Eddivine says, Oh, you know, oh Morgan, you know, cults don't keep their promises, but Hollyhock does.
Lilly: 52:02
Edevayne, I think, is just playing God. When we find out about the cycle of bringing her son back and then killing him again, over and over again, it's like, nah, that, she's not a true believer. I don't think.
Chris: 52:15
Oh yeah, you're completely right. You're completely right that she has a, a pathology or, or many pathologies. And she has discovered this and perhaps at some point it started in a, I can't, I can't envision it ever being a completely innocent place, but perhaps for her it started there, an opportunity to get her son back, but she became obsessed with making it perfect every time, and she realized that She could just end it and start over again over and over and over and I was like, this is the most Maniacal thing I've ever like conceived. So I'm definitely doing it
Lilly: 52:56
Yeah. Oh, that raises questions like, then the gho maybe I was reading too fast because I needed to know what happened. The ghosts didn't have a choice then.
Chris: 53:08
No, and that's why at the end when Charlotte who has been paying attention much more keenly than you know You think when she pulls the herbs out of the hair of Edavain and Mammy and they're instantly They're basically sliced in half and evaporated by these spirits. And Morgan is like, why doesn't that happen to us? And she's like, we're trapped here just like they are. Like, they got no interest in hurting us. And she only knew it because while she was stuffing her face in Hollyhock Hall, she saw what happened to one of the orderlies, right? Sabina. And so, I think that, no, that she is using the power of this place to summon spirits from the peace of death. She's disturbing the peace of death and Taking these spirits and a lot of them can't find a body now and they're pissed off So I think that take is exactly correct
Lilly: 54:06
I loved that too, that the spirits were reasonable.
Chris: 54:10
Yeah,
Lilly: 54:10
I think it happens a lot in haunting horror stories where the ghosts just attack anybody even if it doesn't actually make sense because they're so mad and that always bothers me. They're not stupid. They're just dead.
Chris: 54:22
right. I mean, they're definitely pissed off. They clearly are doing a little bit of you know Shenanigans with the cabinet whenever the women are in the cabinet And it's sort of like tuning a radio dial almost, where sometimes it's just these awful hallucinations that you don't realize are hallucinations until it's over. And sometimes they end up falling into tune with whoever Hollyhock's patrons are. These people who want to bring one of these spirits back. And so she never knows whether she's going to get one or the other. And then she starts to doubt anytime she's in reality, like, am I just in the cabinet?
Lilly: 55:05
Chris, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us about this incredible book. Could you tell our listeners anything they might have to look forward to from you?
Chris: 55:14
Well, first of all, thank you both for reading it. Thank you both for reading all my books so far. I love chatting with you guys. I look forward to it so much. And so, I consider it a very deep honor. I love your podcast. I've been listening to it now for so long. And everyone should listen to it. So, really, thank you very much for having me on. And what was your question? I literally forgot.
Lilly: 55:38
do we have to look forward to?
Chris: 55:40
Okay, well.
Lilly: 55:41
One book isn't enough, I need more.
Sara: 55:43
Yes, we do need more books from you.
Chris: 55:46
let's cross our fingers. We're about to go on submission maybe in a month or two with a new horror novel. This one is, it's a horror novel, there is a supernatural aspect, but it's more of a kind of a family thriller. And the tentative title is Worry Box. And uh, yeah, it's about a jealous house. So I'll. Stop there. So hopefully, hopefully we could sell that. I have a couple short stories coming out this year. One is coming out in Friction later in the year, and that story is called, it's a French title, which I never learned how to pronunciate, but it's, it means for the life of another. It's Pour Atrevie, and that's a short story that I worked on for a long time with the editors there at Friction. I have a poem coming out in Deadlands about a sentient meat spider in issue 35, and I've got my fingers really, really, really hard, hard crossed because I have submitted to a An anthology that Kangaskhan Publishing is doing about clowns. So, they have a clown anthology, a clown horror anthology coming out. And I wrote one of, I think it was honestly one of the best short stories I've ever written for this thing. I had no expectation that I could write a clown story, and I wrote just a super fun, very, very wrong story. But it's fun, so it's all okay. Even if you get cancelled in the process. Laughs.
Sara: 57:19
I'm looking forward to all of those, even if it sounds like it's a lot of horror. I'm gonna, I'm gonna mentally prepare myself,
Chris: 57:26
know, I, I never thought of myself, even after The Phlebotomist, which, okay, it's been four years, guys, it's vampires. Even after I wrote that, I refused to think of it as horror. It's horror. It's just not super in your face scary. I was like, no, I'm a science fiction writer. I'm a science fiction writer. And there's huge scary things in Stringers too, you know, and all my short fiction leans horror. So I think I've always kind of been a horror writer at heart, but I love, you know, I love space horror and stuff like that. So I don't, who knows what'll be next. I just started this week. I just started another novel and I'm 20, 000 words into it. And that one is, what would you call that? It's sort of like, um, a cross between Bird Box and Bird box and a zombie movie. So
Lilly: 58:16
I'm a sucker for zombie stories, so that's very exciting to me.
Chris: 58:19
there's no zombies in it, but it's a similar kind of feel it's a similar people change Let's just
Lilly: 58:24
mm hmm. All right.
Sara: 58:27
And for people who want to keep up with all of that, who want to buy your books and follow you on social media, where can you be found?
Chris: 58:34
all my links and everything are on chrispanatier. com I'm on twitter. I'm not going to call it x at chrisjpanatier And instagram at chrispanatier and if you could find those you can find me i'm i'm around.
Sara: 58:48
Awesome. Thank you again for coming on. It's always a pleasure to read your books and to chat with you, so.
Chris: 58:54
Thanks guys. Thank you so much I love chatting with you
Sara: 59:02
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Lilly: 59:06
Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at email. com.
Sara: 59:17
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.
Lilly: 59:24
We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.
Sara: 59:31
Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!
