Author Interview: Written in Dead Wax by Andrew Cartmel

Episode 8

Release Date: 5/12/2021

Your hosts had the exciting opportunity to interview Andrew Cartmel, the author of the Vinyl Detective series, about the first book “Written in Dead Wax” (by Andrew Cartmel, shocker). Y

ou can find more from Andrew here: https://medwayprideradio.co.uk/show/the-jazz-cat/ http://venusianfrogbroth.blogspot.com/

They also discuss too much video game content, and attempt to recommend other gothic novels for those who enjoyed “Mexican Gothic” by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. This episode includes a slow-burning visit to the Pet Peeve Corner: Why don’t people tag their work accurately?

Music provided by Audio Library Plus: “Travel With Us” by Vendredi; “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” by Amarià;

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly 00:04

Hello, and welcome to fiction fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara 00:12

And I'm Sara. And I am so thrilled that we have today with us. Andrew Cartmel is the author of the final detective series, because we will be discussing the first book in the series written in Dead wax.

Andrew 00:23

Hi, guys. It's very exciting to be here. Thank you for having me.

Sara 00:27

Thank you so much for joining us. Well, we

Lilly 00:30

like to start off on a positive note, just a little dose of positivity at the beginning of our podcast. So anyone, anything good happened this week.

Andrew 00:41

The sun's been shining here in London, between high winds and rain. It's been actually gloriously sunny today. And spring does feel like it's your last year.

Lilly 00:49

Oh, that's fantastic.

Sara 00:51

It's always nice to have a little bit of sun in between the rain.

Andrew 00:54

Well, you noticed spring with the cat starts spending more time out in the garden than she does indoors. So it was a terrific sight and not entirely irrelevant to our discussion, because I think we'll get to the cats in my fiction who correspond rather closely to the cats in my real life.

Sara 01:09

There will be some cat questions. Yes. It wouldn't be our podcast without cat talk. Exactly. So my good thing is that I took today off of work, so I got to sleep in for an extra hour.

Lilly 01:20

Congrats. That's always nice. Yes. And literally, it Well, it hasn't happened yet. So it's a little bit cheating. But I am getting my first vaccine this afternoon. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I have to drive almost an hour to get to it. But it's

Sara 01:34

worth it. Definitely.

Lilly 01:38

Well, as Sarah will start with Sarah, instead of making you guys guess who to talk first? read anything good lately, just not podcast related. I read a lot

Sara 01:46

of Leigh Bardugo books. I think I read like four and a half Leigh Bardugo books and last week. So that's yeah, that was a lot.

Lilly 01:53

A lot of reading. Yeah,

Sara 01:55

it was a lot of reading.

Andrew 01:56

And I'm currently rereading a lot of classic crime suspense novels by John D. MacDonald is one of my favorite writers of all time, actually. Next up is a departure of forum, which is basically a realistic comic novel about an art colony in Mexico called please write for details. But other than that, I have been reading a lot of music biographies, I read a very good zap. And I'm reading the definitive biography, The Rolling Stones at moment by Philip Norman. And I'm sort of on a on that kind of tangent.

Sara 02:25

Are you reading those for pleasure? Or for research? Yes,

Andrew 02:29

what it was, is I was I really got into early Zappa and the Mothers of Invention and fascinated by him. So I got a hold of the best biography. And then I there's a fantastic book, which is a memoir written by a woman who is both in his life romantically, although that word doesn't apply with Zappa, and also was a guitarist in his band called nije, Len Lennon, and it's a great book, and it really shines a different light on the person. And again, with the stones, I've been listening to a lot of classic early stones albums, and it's just, I like to know the circumstances of how they're made. But I also get ended up getting interested in if I like, somebody's music, I end up interested in their life.

Lilly 03:08

Absolutely. Yeah. And finding out sort of how that how those two things connect is always so fascinating. Exactly. I have not read a single thing. But I did read the programming instructions on a new coffee machine to set it up so that it starts making coffee before I wake up in the morning. So that Oh, that

Andrew 03:29

was an endeavor very close to the heart of my protagonist.

Lilly 03:34

There might be a few very close to home reasons why we loved this book.

Andrew 03:38

Yes. Yay.

Sara 03:40

So speaking of the book, I have a quote that is going to segue into our next question. I hope you don't mind that we're quoting your body your book at Yahoo. I

Andrew 03:48

think it's the coolest thing ever.

Sara 03:50

So there's, there's a quote on page 184. I generally save the wine said money until the end of the working day or for a special occasion. The end of the working day is a special occasion. I always say said Nevada. And that is appropriate because it is not the end of the day for us, although it's later for you. And I'm going to ask What are you drinking tonight?

Andrew 04:12

Oh, tonight I'm drinking nothing more exciting than pure water because I'm very healthy. Plus, when I say hot chocolate, it sounds like you know I would have loved a little hot chocolate and sit in accord. But no, I drink really high and hot chocolate with and the thing about this stuff is it's packed not with caffeine but a close relative of caffeine called theobromine, which is like caffeine that gives us smoothie rush. So basically, I'm a caffeine freak addicted to hot chocolate. So I will if I'm good, I reward myself with a really nice, high end high cocoa content hot chocolate. But I happen to drink wine but because locked down which is when we're recording this in 2021 has severed a lot of socializing for the time being I only drink socially, I never drink, except that I'm hanging out with a bunch of friends. So I've got some fabulous red wine ready to go and some really good white wine. But those are waiting for an occasion when I've got my friends around me. So that's why they're not being consumed.

Sara 05:15

That makes sense. Well, just

Lilly 05:16

another reason to celebrate the people getting vaccinated and the end of this nonsense.

Andrew 05:22

Yeah, absolutely. We did have some friends around because we were shooting a little short film outdoors last week, and we all had a little bit of some very nice champagne. So that was great. It was the first time since Christmas that I'd actually had that kind of social celebration thing going on. It was felt lovely. That first

Lilly 05:38

time seeing someone face to face someone outside of your household face to face is such as such a weird

Andrew 05:46

there's other people out there.

Lilly 05:49

And they're three dimensional.

Andrew 05:52

Although I do think people get zoomed out, but I do love the fact that Zoom allows us this degree of interaction.

Lilly 05:59

Oh, absolutely. Sara, what about you? What are you drinking?

Sara 06:04

I am drinking mimosas because I felt weird drinking straight champagne or straight wine at 11 in the morning. Some emotions it is

Andrew 06:14

sort of nutritious, fruity things have been added to sort of as it fig leaf for us.

Sara 06:21

It has orange juice. What's healthy, right?

Andrew 06:23

Yeah, just you know, today drink as long as as orange juice in it. Exactly.

Lilly 06:28

Strangely enough, that's my answer to the same reason. Yeah. Also, because they're delicious. Although I am drinking mine with blueberry lemonade.

Andrew 06:38

Whoo, that sounds good. I just have the blueberry lemonade bucks versus champagne and orange juice and emojis and listen both something else as well.

Lilly 06:46

I don't think it's just that might be a regional difference. Yeah,

Sara 06:49

I think you're at least in California, it's most of this just champagne and orange juice.

Andrew 06:54

Just bring on the blueberry lemonade.

Lilly 06:58

Well, we've been reading quite a few mystery novels for this podcast. But I have to say it was so nice. Coming back to a tried and true detective novel. It hit me right in my Agatha Christie heart. So please do something about it is so different.

Andrew 07:14

The interesting thing is that when I wrote that first novel in the series, I obviously was aware of Agatha Christie's huge statue, but I hadn't read any of her stuff. And now I'm a bit of an Agatha Christie fiend, and for the fifth novel in the series, which we won't get to today. But just so you know, that was written heavily under the influence of Agatha Christie, like I was, absolutely wanted to do something in the zone where she operates. So yeah, I'm a big admirer of Christie,

Lilly 07:43

I can't wait to get there.

Sara 07:45

And we probably will end up discussing more of a series on the podcast, or

Andrew 07:50

just just just where if people are interested, low action in the way in which sort of the novel The fifth novel is called Low action, the way in which it is like Christie is that I was really in love with the way she will set up a whole bunch of suspects, all of whom were equally plausible, you know, to be innocent, or to be guilty as sin. And I just thought, oh, I want to try that. And that's what I did that time. That was that was my particular homage to Christie

Lilly 08:17

for I can't wait. The characters just in written and dead wax. We're also compelling that reading a bunch of suspects is going to be very fun.

Andrew 08:28

That classic kind of temporal Indians mold that, you know, when you just know that somebody in there is not right. They don't know who it is.

Lilly 08:35

Absolutely, that tension. And we're discussing one of your novels today. But you've actually written for a huge variety of different formats. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how story writing is different for different media?

Andrew 08:50

Yeah, I've written. I've written for television, TV swept TV drama scripts. And I've written for what we would call graphic novels, but less potentially, we could just call comics. And I have written audio adventures. And I have written stage plays and novels and how those two stage plays and novels are absolutely my top love at the moment. I'm writing both today, as we're working on both the stageplay had a novel The new vinyl detective novel, The sixth one in the series. Oh, exciting. Yeah, it's called attack and decay. And it's about Scandinavian death metal. So I was having fun writing that today. But there are so different. I think the novel is the purest form of writing, because it goes straight into the head of the reader, assuming they are fluent in the language that you're writing in, what you're expressing will go almost unmeasured mediated into their mind. So that's it's great purity and great power. And I love that and the way you can do absolutely anything in a novel, but the great thing about writing scripts of any form is that there's so much you can leave out. You literally don't need prose. You don't need any description. Well In comics, you need a bit of description and movies, I guess, just to set the scene even less in a stage play. But you don't have to give this constant stream of narrative. So much as in film and television and playwriting and audio, right. RADIO PLAYS, for instance, is basically dialogue, you might have some effects, some music, but essentially, it's a matter of writing dialogue and some set moments. So that if you can write dialogue, you pretty much write a stage plan, although it isn't quite as simple as that. That's kind of 90% True. And I love writing dialogue which feeds into novels to there'll be stretches of novels, where it's it's mostly the stories mostly advanced by dialogue, which is a technique used by writers as diverse as George V. Higgins, great American crime writer who is a master, mostly dialogue novels. But Jane Austen uses dialogue to advance the plot to a surprising degree, and Agatha Christie. One thing I noticed when I started reading herself is that her dialogue is really good. Like it's very natural sounding, and she's good at writing. I wouldn't necessarily know if she's good at writing other nationalities. But within England, she writes the different class strata very well. And it's, it sounds like real people talking and that's no small trick.

Lilly 11:15

Absolutely. Dialogue is one of those things where if someone slips a little bit, it's very obvious.

Andrew 11:22

very clunky and expositional too. But good dialogue is wonderful, because it brings the characters to life, but also because it can really help move the story along.

Lilly 11:31

Beyond just dialogue, this book is actually written in the first person. So it's almost like the entire novel is dialogue, because you're hearing the character, tell us the story. It's

Andrew 11:41

the internal monologue of the character. That's very true. I love writing in the first person. And it's, it's the easiest way to give your book, natural attitude, if I can call it that it can give a really distinctive characteristic to the entire narrative, because it's being told, as we said, in the internal voice of one particular person. And it's also particularly apt for crime novels, perhaps because of the tradition of the hardboiled novel and also film noir, which often tends to be directed by a doomed individual. So it comes with a territory to an extent with a crime story. I think

Sara 12:17

I was going to comment on that. Because for those listeners who have listened to previous episodes, they know that Lily is just generally tends not to be a fan of first person, but we we were discussing this earlier, and we both feel that it works so so well for the vinyl detective, partially because it's a callback to as you say that the noir film, but also just you do it very, very well.

Andrew 12:41

Thank you. It's very kind. Also, part of the influence, I suppose, is that my friend Ben Ron, he writes great Susan on what's called the rivers of London. So as you told various idiosyncratically the first person, I wasn't unaware of his considerable success, but I wouldn't have approached this and done it in the first person unless I felt that it totally suited my own approach.

Lilly 13:05

Well, it fits so well. And the narration voice is so strong that it really adds a very subtle humor to the prose that I quite enjoyed, despite being hard on.

Andrew 13:17

Sorry, no, I felt that that would force you to read the first person book and maybe more. But the thing about humor was when I am now with a different agent, but the agent I was with when I was first writing these books, he kept bringing them in say, he'd say, but they're funny, you know, like, like, this was kind of a flaw or a problem. And he just didn't get that there might be the, this was a number of years back and it was at the absolute height of the sort of grisly Scandi noir type things, which were often were quite both unflinching and unsmiling. You know, and proud. I think he might have been a bit saturated with that, but it but that's no real excuse because ever since has been crime fiction has been wacky, or, or cozy, or funny or sardonic crime fiction, so I just don't think he got it, which is one reason it took an overuse of these books to find home.

Lilly 14:09

Well, I'm very glad they did. Yes, me too.

Andrew 14:12

Me to, as

Lilly 14:15

well as, as the name of the series might suggest the vinyl detective. There are quite a few different subjects or hobbies that are very vivid in this story. And it must be impossible to write about such specific topics like vinyl, jazz, or even cooking without a certain level of personal investment. Absolutely.

Andrew 14:36

Right. Yeah,

Lilly 14:37

I was wondering just how much of your own interests made it onto the page. Did you even have to research?

Andrew 14:43

Well, I try not to make the character, the protagonist, the vinyl detective, too much like me. And to that end I was I think we're jumping ahead a little bit here but my my friend better on a bitch who was sort of consulting with me when I was coming up with us He asked me if I was going to include the cats in the book. She will talk a little bit about that now. Cuz I do I have a cat lover. So he said, Are you going to include cats? And I said no, because I'll just make it too much like me. Nobody wants to read about cat. how old I was, he insisted that I include them. I think just because, well, I actually I know exactly why, because I've written a short story, science fiction short story that never went anywhere. But it featured a couple of cats. And he really liked the way the cats were written about it. So he knew that there weren't going to be, I wasn't likely to deploy to depict my cats as cloying or it kind of silly, but that they would work on the page. And so that was one reason he encouraged me to do it. And they work. I'm so glad he did. Because the cats, they're just you talking about the sort of hobbies or the interests that are character has Catterall part of that they're kind of kind of part of this tapestry of everyday life, which is what you want your exciting crime and suspense novel to take place in front of if you know what I mean, you want to have this realistic, fairly low key background, which is your starting point for your characters as they then get involved in and embroiled in murder and mayhem and intrigue.

Lilly 16:17

I loved that the they're sort of the backdrop of the terrible management company that manage the property. And that is something that I'm very familiar with.

Andrew 16:32

Yeah, again, it was low hanging fruit, because a lot of that's based on where I live in this sort of situation there. But also, there's always that desire to look for the sardonic humor and things. So if the, if the management company had been supremely efficient, there wouldn't have been any mileage for that kind of material.

Lilly 16:49

Right. But it also gives that relatability to so many people, and that that opportunity to, to feel closer with the main character in that way.

Andrew 16:58

That's so true. In fact, I just finished a play, which I think will find an audience because everything about it just suddenly you completely can relate to so I understand how important that is. And I think one of the things about this book in particular, that the first book in the series that will resonate with people is that our hero has got a hard time like, you know, making ends meet. He's scuffling for funds, you know, things go wrong for him, we all have been there. So we all will tend to invest an amount of our sympathy and empathy with the characters in a situation like that.

Sara 17:34

Absolutely. And I going back to the cats a little bit, I have another quote that I've pulled out, partially because it's just so evident throughout this book, that you're a cat person, and I love it, like it adds such a depth to it. But I just I read this for the first time in 2018, I think was when I read it, and you have this line, he lifted a second finger and said, water, make sure there's always a bowl of water for Turk, but Fanny likes to drink from the tap. So if she jumps up on the sink, I run the tap for a while and let her drink. Also in the bathtub, if she jumps into empty tub and goes scratchy, scratchy scratch, that means I run the bath stop for a minute. And she drinks from that because human beings are her slaves and vassals since she's a cat and she's in charge. And I like it's just, you know, cats, it's clearly

Andrew 18:22

illusions.

Sara 18:24

I can't imagine this novel without the cats. Novels without the cats either

Andrew 18:30

they're crucial. They're crucial little counterpoint, you don't need a lot of them, but they just kind of they defined the character and they make the characters seem real. And also they is true. They provide comic relief. They provide story opportunities, at least one novel that the way they feature in the plot. And they just kind of fill out the picture because I know there's a tendency for especially in horrible crime for the detective to be a blank slate, you know, just sort of a hard drinking load of sleeps in a room with nothing in it. But that gets very boring very easily. And there's a counter tradition of the eccentric, colorful detectives were nothing but quirks and unusual characteristics. So somewhere between the two resides my detective with his cats is cookery is hifi. His love of vinyl?

Sara 19:27

Yeah, it feels very grounded in reality in a way that not everything does.

Andrew 19:32

Yeah, I mean, I've sort of because I do love cats. And I love crime fiction. I've sort of dipped into some other books that are sort of crime cats. And they they're on a spectrum, which goes right out to kind of wild wacky crime solving sentient cats, you know, right down to just wandering the cat in the background. So my realistic background cats definitely.

Lilly 19:56

Speaking of vinyl, that is obviously a huge thing. huge component of the vital detective series. I don't know if that gave it away for anyone, but you explain it in such an accessible way. I personally am not a vinyl enthusiast, but I never felt like I had to stop and look something up. Because I knew that it would be explained in the book itself in a way that I was able to follow along.

Andrew 20:22

And hopefully no overwhelm. You know, there was no overwhelming info dumps, I hope. And I hope it didn't get boring because there's a fine line between making something detailed enough to make it realistic and you know, overdoing it. I'm constantly aware of that back and forth.

Lilly 20:37

I think you nailed it, it was it always felt like I had just enough to understand what was going on without feeling like I was trying to learn a new hobby.

Andrew 20:47

Yeah, because nothing is worse than that.

Lilly 20:51

Well, for example, the concept of dead wax from the title does show up several times in the book, and it doesn't get explained right away. But because I already had trust in the author, in this case, you I knew that it would be explained, so I was able to just roll with it. And when it did finally come up, it felt very fulfilling.

Andrew 21:14

I was clear enough. That's really good. It I just loved that before I started writing this book. I just love the phrase written the dead wax. I thought it sounds like a crime novel it sounds it always has kind of an Edgar Allan Poe sense of mystery to it, right? It's almost Gothic. And it's suggestive of something hidden or cryptic and slightly menacing. So that's a great title. And the vinyl detective series is a great title for the first novel

Lilly 21:40

agreed. This is not not so much to do with the content of the book. But something I noticed reading it is that it seems like there are very different slang terms for cannabis depending on the region. For example, I've never built a joint in my life, but I have rolled quite a few. And so I just thought it was really interesting having that disconnect. In just the slang terms used.

Andrew 22:04

Will my heroes quite puritanical, he does not partake of any drugs except coffee. But that doesn't do well and alcohol, to be fair, but that doesn't do a lot of good because he's surrounded with this constellation of friends and other characters who just were completely debauched. Particularly his friend Tinkler. So yesterday, cannabis does crop up in the novel. And I was thinking about all the different terms that one uses for cannabis in particular, the other day because I was working on a period story and I thought, what would they have called it then? Because you know, these two colleagues certainly think that Mary Jane gage boo, boos a great one. Tom Waits song, it's an important part of Chorus grass, of course, we'd Yeah. So slang is is just wonderful in all in every regard. But in relation to say drug use, it can be particularly rich. I was just a few years ago, I suddenly had this kind of route to Damascus moment when I realized what cold turkey meant, because everyone knows that cold turkey. And this doesn't feature in my novel to talk because there's no hard drug use in any of the books so far. But cold turkey is when you're addicted, usually to an opiate, and you come off it and you go through withdrawal. And it's an unpleasant experience. But I suddenly that flashed on this thing one day, after Christmas, after you've had all the fun of Christmas. All that's left are the leftovers, which is cold turkey, the leftover unpleasant leftovers after you've had all your pleasure. You know, the richness of language who came up with it? And why did it stick? I guess it is because it's so expressive of the, the kind of doldrums and the the grayness and lack of pleasure that can compare to the fun of Christmas. Back when you were addicted to hard drugs, cold turkey. So yeah, the language. The slang surrounding drug use is rich and fascinating and amusing.

Lilly 24:02

I was a little disappointed that jazz cigarettes never showed up, despite the amount of jazz in the novel.

Andrew 24:09

I guess that's because our hero is a jazz lover, but he's not a dope smoker. Right? So that that would be jazz cigarettes, like jazz hands is one of those great, great terms.

Sara 24:22

So Andrew, I have a question because this is a series of books with five books out and you said you're working on the six when you wrote written a dead wax. Did you always intend for it to be a series or?

Andrew 24:34

Absolutely it the whole idea was to create a series and I when I wrote the first book, I gave it to my agent. And I felt like my entire destiny at stake was at stake. I felt that I've written the best thing I've ever written. And I was at a point in my career where I desperately needed some kind of breakthrough. So I gave the book to my agent and he didn't read it and he didn't read any didn't read it, read it and read it and read it and in the end. It took him six months. Want to the day to read the book? Now to stop myself going nuts waiting, like pacing around outside the delivery room, I guess, because people don't do that anymore people were present at birth. But you know, it's like that. And the only way, the only sort of therapy I could apply to myself was writing the next book. And the next book, the second book, which is call the run out groove went really well, sort of on a roll by that point. And I just thought I'll write the third one. And so not only were they conceived as a series, I wrote through through them, like, on the go just back to back, even though there was no deal in place. And at that point, when I began writing, the other two, my agent hadn't even read the first one. So yeah, that was how committed I was to them being a series.

Lilly 25:48

That's crazy. To me, I honestly think I read this book and half a day, like I just, I couldn't stop reading it. I don't

Andrew 25:54

want to be too fair to my former agent. But I have to say that he did. He didn't say so much that it needed cutting, but he just, I could tell that certain parts didn't hold his attention. I cut a lot. So I then ruthlessly approach the book. And I think I've got about 30,000 words out, which is a lot of wow. Yeah, a huge amount. So to give him his due that the draft that he read, did not move as swiftly as the published draft. And we do benefited mightily from cutting which I, again, I have to emphasize, he didn't make that suggestion. He just sort of indicated by his lack of enthusiasm, but suddenly needed to do it. You know, I just made a judgment call that it needed to be faster and funnier.

Lilly 26:38

Well, you certainly certainly did that. Thank you. Before we move on to a more in depth discussion of the content, we sort of like to wrap up this part with a why should you read this book? We're not asking you to you can't answer it. But we do have a prepared answer, if you don't want to, because

Andrew 26:56

I want to put my cat through college, please. So what is your guy's answer?

Lilly 27:03

Well, there's a lot of great reasons. Gosh, if you like mysteries, or detective novels, this book is absolutely a book for you. Even if you don't like either of those things. The characters in this book are so compelling and fun to read about. This is also the book for you. Did I miss anything? Yeah.

Sara 27:21

Yeah, I don't really have anything to add, because I think you've set it off. I mean, it works on so many levels.

Andrew 27:29

And I was being facetious with my cat remark earlier. But when I was conceiving this as a series, I thought, if this is going to work, it will work only if readers fall in love with the characters. And that, bless them is what has happened. And thanks to social media, which has many bad things about also some good things. You get feedback from people all the time, who just say, I love these characters, I want to see more than they're like my friends, you know, and that's what I go to the novels for. Which is exactly what you need in a series to keep drawing people back. I know that because when I fall in love with the series, that's why it's because I want to live the lives with those characters. Again, that happens when you open the covers of those books.

Sara 28:14

Good characters can make or break one's enjoyment of a book. Absolutely.

Andrew 28:18

You need a lot else to crime over like you need a really good plot. Good story. You need Jeopardy, you need mystery, you need suspense, you need a string of interesting characters. And it all comes back to character in the end because the protagonist has to be somebody who you're willing to go on the trip with.

Lilly 28:42

To avoid spoilers for written and dead wax, skip to 47 minutes

Sara 28:53

okay, so getting into spoiler territory, Nevada is a recurring character she's she shows up throughout the series, but you do introduce in the in the back half of the have written in databox, you do introduce another love interest. Did you know that Nevada would stay or were you kind of playing with the idea that we might be the one?

Andrew 29:15

No, it was always Nevada. And we know that because if we're into spoiler territory, it's because we think she's dead at one point, right. So that character has been stress tested to the maximum was reuse. I think an interesting character is not given that treatment and therefore was obviously never quite considered on the same level as Nevada.

Lilly 29:40

But when we don't exactly see the moment where Re and the main character get together, there's sort of a fade to black or as we see the entire relationship progression between Nevada and the main character, and we actually see them grow closer. Good point.

Andrew 29:54

Yeah, it's more like a live life. The other is a bit more like a storm.

Lilly 29:58

I have to say A the progression with the relationship with Nevada was so well done, I was on board with the main characters decisions at every moment, and bringing me through, getting together breaking up, and then getting back together. And I, as the reader agreeing with all of those things is a masterpiece. I don't know how you did it.

Andrew 30:26

I'm really, really pleased. One of the most gratifying things I was. I mentioned earlier that the books didn't see the light of day for a number of years. They if it left to my agent, they never would have done because he just sort of tried to try it a couple of people. They weren't interested, easiest shelf. And so I kept on pursuing it myself and a friend called guy Adams recommended a fantastic editor at Titan books called branded us. And so I said that I myself sent the books to her, and then she she read them and she loved them. And there was so many great things about that. One of the greatest sentences I've ever heard of all time, was we want to publish the books, we don't want any changes, which is one of the things she said. But one of the other great things that she said to me, Miranda, who's still I believe, talking with her in this way past tense because she's moved on from my publisher, to become a very successful crime editor at another firm. One of the other wonderful things that she did say to me was that she liked the female characters that she said that male writers often create, I don't think I'd heard this term before Manic Pixie Dream Girls. And she says she's absolutely not like that. I thought, oh, that's, that's interesting. And I was felt very proud of that. And I remember that I'd always really liked a British, an Irish Canadian writer called Brian Moore. And one of the defining characteristics of his novels were that they often were female centric, and the women characters are so beautifully drawn. And I just love Brian more because of his writing, the quality of his writing is superlative. He's a mainstream novelist. Although he started out writing crime novels under a pseudonym, I started writing murder mysteries. Anyway, so I was always I always felt that I was schooled or mentored by writers like that. So if that led to me writing better female characters, then I'm very proud, very grateful to Brian Moore.

Lilly 32:16

It's true, they actually feel like people instead of plot devices. Yeah. Which is very nice to read. Something that was interesting about this book is that it isn't a two part format. And well, I especially read it as an e book. So when I was drawing to the end of part one, I didn't know how much book was left,

Andrew 32:38

it's so creates a different experience. Oh, that

Lilly 32:43

it was like an extra dimension of the mystery, because we were clearly drawing to the end of that of the first of the first

Andrew 32:50

arc, the first phase? Absolutely, yeah.

Lilly 32:52

But I had so many questions that I was so upset, and then I flip, or I swipe the page, and there's more, I was so glad

Andrew 33:02

they kind of need Yeah, cuz it's such an important part of the experience of reading a book, they sort of need the equivalent on an ebook of the counting of the pages left that we all have. Because for instance, one thing that can spoil the experience of reading a novel is if you're reading a physical book, and it looks like there's loads of text left, and you come to the end of the book, and then you realize that the text that a huge chunk of text is like, here's the three chapters of the next book in series or something like that. So I was very adamant to my publishers that if we were going to do something like that, that we would have to put a stain down the side of the page or something, because I've seen them do that, like you do. The additional material after the end of the book is in on different color papers slightly. And that that works because you know where the main narrative ends, but it's such a delicate balance, because otherwise it can really spoil the the pleasure and the mood of a story. But extraordinarily enough, my agent who's my old agent who's getting a lot of stick, perhaps deservedly the Christmas interview, one of his notes was, why don't you just end it there? Like, oh, what a terrible No. I mean,

34:06

that would have been horrible.

Andrew 34:07

It was horrible. I mean, it would have left Nevada Daddy would have never would have solved the mystery. Yeah, it was just it was just like one of these damn note, I thought, probably motivated by the fact that the novel was too long. But that was not the solution. But yes, it's so the none of my other books in the series mimic that structure. But it was it was I realized there's going to be two halves. I thought, Oh, it's good to be side, one and side two, just like a record. I was so proud of that conceit.

Lilly 34:34

I actually loved the process of discovering that especially with a mystery novel, because sometimes when there's the red herring experience, you know, it's a red herring because it's at the beginning of the book, so you know, it's not the answer. But if you don't know how much book is left, then that could be the solution.

Andrew 34:55

I love when you bring up red herrings from books later in the series. I've started to have a lot of fun with Red herrings. I've given people names that if you scrutinize them carefully, you might discover that they were the red herring or behavior clearly indicated that they were the red herring and nobody's spotted it. So far, it's just so much.

Sara 35:13

So you've talked a little bit about this before. But this is a mystery novel. So all of the pieces have to ultimately fit together. And you said that you, you know, you cut 30,000 words, and you did some tightening up. But how different is the finished version? Like from

Andrew 35:31

in terms, not different at all?

Sara 35:33

Okay, so you so it always had the same points, it's just yeah,

Andrew 35:37

just to give you an example, there's a bit where he goes down to Wales, and he visits this factory, and they are going to clean the record there. And then you're ready. Even though this is this spoiler replete version, there's lots of action and mayhem that takes place on it. So they go to the factory with this guy. And they do some stuff with the record at the factory, this rare record that they've is the object of the request, in the original version, they went to the factory, the guys had come back to my house, have lunch with my family. And they did all that then they went back to the factory again, and like, so that was like five pages that could just go they just stayed at the factory poor guys, families never, you know, it exists somewhere, but it doesn't exist. So that you see, it's all the same movement to the same destination. But there was detours along the way that have been removed. That makes sense.

Lilly 36:23

There's something that I thought was very interesting was sort of the interaction with technology. You know, the main character obviously has some very strong opinions about audio technology. But it does eventually play a key role in the discovery of the Dead wax clues.

Andrew 36:39

Yeah, that's That's true. This is the most heavily technical the books, but I think that's it'd be should be put off by that. Because it's, as you say, it's all quite interleaved with the nature of the mystery itself.

Lilly 36:51

Absolutely. I internally cheered when they got to the point where they told someone just send me a picture of the album. That because that it's always interesting in in a story that supposed to take place in modern times, but they don't take advantage of modern solutions.

Andrew 37:09

It's suited for suspense novels, particularly, the invention, the mobile phone is considerable quandary.

Lilly 37:16

Yeah. So that that utilization, I think felt very genuine and made made me appreciate the mystery so much more, because it didn't feel like a plot hole.

Andrew 37:26

Thank heavens.

Sara 37:29

So this is one of the only books I believe I actually haven't read loaction it's, it's sitting on my shelf staring at me, I hope you enjoy it. I'm looking forward to it. I have been inspired by by rereading written and dead wax to pick up I've been meaning to for for ages, it's just life has gotten in the way. But as far as I can recall, this is one of the only books that has a significant portion of the action take place outside of the UK, like because there's there's events in Japan and in LA, what went into the decision to, like, set some of the action outside.

Andrew 38:06

When I one reason that that book was 30,000 words too long as it was hugely ambitious as I was like a real first novel, though I had written books before. This was my first real attempt to state I stake my claim to being a crime novelist. So it was hugely ambitious. So I wanted to go all over the world and have big action scenes. And so that was why we ended up not only going to Los Angeles, but also going to Japan. And you're right. The most of the books have remained in Britain ever since. However, the book I'm working on now, number six, attack and decay is set mostly in Sweden.

Sara 38:42

Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, it's great.

Andrew 38:45

And, of course, this is, although I did research Japan online, everywhere else is based on places I've actually been, which really worth doing. And so I went to Sweden a couple years ago, and that experience is proved so fertile and rich in plotting the book and creating the place for the book. Having said that, I've invented places completely. There's a completely imaginary place in the book that you haven't read yet low action, which I won't tell you about. But I'd love to talk to you about afterwards, because people kind of love that place. You know, that people said I want to go there. And of course, it really exists in my mind, but it is a place again in Britain. So that's I'm just wildly ransacking my mind to think if we go outside the UK in any of the books, I don't think again until Sweden in the US.

Sara 39:33

Yeah, I was gonna say it's so often when a book is set outside of an author's home country, it you can feel that there's a little bit of unfamiliarity there, but I didn't, I didn't feel that for LA or for Japan. And I mean, you go to LA on a fairly regular basis. So it really felt like we're familiar with the area

Andrew 39:57

and also when he goes to Japan The guy he's going to see is like a super audiophile kind of guy. So I know that world even though the specifics of what it would be like to live in a particular area of Japan, I do know, the kind of life and philosophy that somebody like that would have

Lilly 40:15

exactly. We mentioned earlier that you've written other works, and even other mystery and detective novels, did your process for the vital detective differ?

Andrew 40:26

I think I just raised my game. And also, as people have remarked, writing is the classic example of learning by doing so the more you write, the more your skills are sharpened. So I've reached that point where a kind of a tipping point, I guess, or maybe it's that 10,000 hour thing, I reached a watershed. And this is wonderful. And it finally happens when you start out writing, or at least when I started out writing, I had these visions of what I wanted to do, then I'd write down what I would try to achieve that vision and it would end up it'd be like, if Homer Simpson did a sketch turned out like so attempt to render what I had in my head in prose, and it would miss. But, you know, I got closer and closer to expressing exactly what I met Ron, about this time, probably a book or two before this had begun to reach the point where I could actually, to my own satisfaction, express the story and the narrative I had in my head on the page.

Lilly 41:24

Fantastic. My next question is actually for Sarah, Sarah, have you read this novel more than once? And that will always sort of affect your experience of a mystery or a detective novel? So I was wondering how, if there were any differences that you noticed, or anything like that, yeah, so

Sara 41:41

this is my second time reading written dead wax, I had first read it, as I believe I mentioned back in 2018 or so. And it's been long enough that even though I still remembered, like the beats of the story, the mystery still felt fresh. So there were things that I did not recall. But also just, I was sufficiently invested in these characters, like I loved learning about them and finding more depth to them, that it really, the mystery was almost secondary, on the second reread, like you can't, you can't always reread a mystery novel and enjoy it as much as I certainly did. In this case,

Andrew 42:23

I know what you mean, because once you know, the plot moves, it's a very different experience. However, that brings us to my desire to create characters that people would grow affectionate towards, and then want to go back and those they want us to spend time with them in new books, but they can also go back and spend time with Him by rereading, and a number of people have got in touch so I just embarked on a project to reread the series and that is the highest compliment and when I totally understand because I love doing that myself with my favorite series, and it's one of the that's a huge part of the appeal and why they work.

Sara 42:59

Yeah, I'm a chronic rear reader so but I would definitely say that even if, like you you would pick up this book maybe for the mystery and then you would continue you would go back to it for the characters because you do do such a good job at making us invested in them and bringing them to life in a way that that gives them a lot of depth and character.

Andrew 43:21

A lot of that has to do with I mentioned earlier that he doesn't have an easy term but he also has an emphasis in the form of sticky standards Yes, and I think that people can really relate somebody has these kind of spoiler people these these characters who the devil is who are your nemesis that helps to create simultaneously sympathy for our hero and intense dislike for

Lilly 43:51

AI perhaps the distinctly loved every time he showed up just because those scenes were some of my favorite

Sara 43:58

they were really good at Yeah, I'm with you Lilly. I actually really enjoy sinking not because I think he's a good person. I like I know I couldn't stand as a person. It's horrible. But but he creates such entertaining conflict for our narrator

Andrew 44:13

of those those scenes is so much fun to write because he's such a reprehensible character.

Sara 44:19

So literally turning turning this back to you. You read this for the first time. You had not read this before? What did what did you feel reading it for the first time?

Lilly 44:28

Well, one of the things that I love about detective and mystery novels is trying to guess along with the main characters, trying to solve the mystery as you're reading it. And I will say I think the first half I got there were a couple of things that I figured out a little bit before the vinyl detective but with you know, as the as the story was explaining it to me, I picked up Nevada perhaps being a little bit more manipulative than we would first assume was one of those. But because it had that two part structure For the second half was just a complete roller coaster. Because everything I had predicted had already happened.

Andrew 45:09

I was quite pleased because I worked out that there were several times in this when you think you've reached the sort of end of the trail and then blindside you with something else I remember, I put a lot of work into plotting and constructing the story.

Lilly 45:25

Oh, no, that was it was wonderful. Especially like I said, reading an ebook. I never knew if that really was the end of the book or not. And so it's just sort of a constant discovery, it was so much fun.

Andrew 45:37

What I tried to do here, as I say, was to create characters who would engage you and make you want to come back and read further books. And what we're talking about here really is cozy crime fiction in the sense that you have a kind of safe nucleus at the heart of the story. People who want you're going to end up you know, frozen and decapitated with a chainsaw in a lake in Sweden. That sort of thing can happen. It doesn't. It doesn't hit at the very heart of our story, although our central characters, even the cats can be in jeopardy from time to time, but you just know that there's a certain safe port in the middle of the storm of narrative. And I think that's one of the great, comforting things about cozy crime fiction. But don't be put off by the cozy label because there can be great violence and great suspense, as well. Despite that sort of safe home port. Yeah.

Sara 46:31

So this is jumping ahead to I think it's Book Three, but I could be mistaken about that. There's a scene where the Narrator The final detective gets, like, buried alive. For the spoiler Lily

Lilly 46:49

scare scary thing that was

Sara 46:51

that was terrifying. I like I was I felt so claustrophobic reading that I was like, Oh, God. Yeah. So there's there's definitely high suspense and high stakes in the series. Andrea, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about some of your current projects?

Andrew 47:15

Yeah. So we've kind of touched on the fact that there's now a contract for the six final detective story. And I'm hard at work on that. And I'm hoping to deliver that by the summer. And I'm also running loads of stage plays, which are obviously there's no theaters to put them in yet. But we're having online play readings, and I'm developing a network of fabulous actors who I'm hoping to turn into a repertory company to do a season of my plays in about 18 months time. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, fantastic. Yes, summer after next is what we're thinking, you know, fingers crossed.

Sara 47:52

Okay. I'll keep that in mind and hope that I can get to the UK by then.

Andrew 47:56

And also, I've started to do a Jazz Radio show on a, an internet radio station out on Sunday afternoons at two o'clock, which is a terrible time for you guys in the west coast. But we'll find a way of you guys listening on demand.

Lilly 48:11

Yeah, when they are their recordings that we can listen to after the fact it

Andrew 48:14

takes about two and a half weeks for them to end up on the website on the radio station. But they do eventually end up there. And I've finally reached the point. The first half dozen shows I didn't know how to work my microphone. But it's now starting to get the point where the shows are I think worth listening to

Lilly 48:33

where webs where website, what is the website where we can find that.

Andrew 48:38

There's, like too many things in my life came about through social media, I was approached by a wonderful person called Shea coffee, who just asked if she could interview me for her new radio station, which is called Medway pride radio. And we did an interview I think Shay was a doctor who founded while detector fans, they wanted to talk to me about those things. And the interview went very well. So che came back to me, she said, um, would you like to do your own radio show on ribride radio? Would I ever Can I choose my own music? And you said Yeah, absolutely. So thank thank you, Shane. Thank you midway pride radio, which I suddenly find myself on to and I'll send you links and all that good stuff.

Lilly 49:19

Yeah, please do. Fantastic. And I'd like to say thank you again for joining us. This was so much fun. Oh,

Sara 49:25

before you before you go, though, one last question. On Twitter on Facebook on it's like work at work. Can you be found on the internet?

Andrew 49:35

On all of those Twitter, Facebook and Instagram? You know, it's me because there's a picture of me with my cat Molly looming over my shoulder. And that's I mean, there are various and regardless, but that's the one to go for. And I would say that the platform that gets most updated, most reliably would be Twitter, but I am on all of those things. Wonderful.

Lilly 49:55

Well, we'll see you there, if not interesting someday. And thank

Sara 49:58

you so so much for joining So we so appreciate it. It's been just an absolute delight to talk about. It's

Andrew 50:03

been a thrill. And I hope you guys have a wonderful day. Yeah, there's lots of fun stuff to be had, including so thank you guys hope to speak again, perhaps about some of the other books would be lovely. Absolutely. seasick, thank you very much

Lilly 50:36

I have had time to play video games.

Sara 50:41

I am very jealous. I have not played any video games.

Lilly 50:44

I mean, not a lot, but more than zero.

Sara 50:49

That's an improvement. It's relevant

Lilly 50:50

because I've been playing The Witcher. I'm not just talking about video games on a book podcast.

Sara 50:58

I mean, you would be welcome to talk about video games on the podcast. Video games have books associated with them?

Lilly 51:05

I mean, kinda I do kind of want to read, like Skyrim like books that are in Skyrim? Or like things like that, that are in, in world books anyway. That could that could be fun. But damn, do we not have time for that? Anytime soon?

Sara 51:23

No. Anyway, so you've been playing The Witcher,

Lilly 51:27

I've been playing The Witcher, I've gotten a little bit farther, I am fighting slightly fewer dogs, which I appreciate. Something that I think is probably due to the format more than anything is how balanced the sort of general political scheme of the world is. For example, in the TV show, which is I haven't read the books yet, I will. But in the TV show, there is Nilfgaard is one of the countries and they are definitely the antagonist. Whereas in the video game, there are still kind of shady, but they are not the bad guys. There they are. At one side of the conflict in the land, or different countries, they're at war. Nilfgaard is the big one. And to Marissa I think is the other big one. There. They've been at war. But the video game does a very good job of I don't want to say realistically depicting the ravages of war, because it's still a fantasy video game. But both sides are very cruel to the to the peasant folk. You could be conscripted by either one, just because the other one was your king for longer doesn't mean you want to go die on the front lines. Both sides are stealing supplies from the peasant folk. I just found a bulletin board notice that's how you get a lot of the jobs as people put up. Help Wanted basically, you take the witchery type jobs.

Sara 53:10

Do you have to take the witchery type jobs? Can you take the regular jobs?

Lilly 53:13

There aren't really there aren't really regular jobs there are but there are warnings. So this is an example this was on the bulletin board. But it's not a witcher Job saying, if this country I don't even remember which one it was. If they catch you with a cow or a pig that you haven't turned over to them, they will hang you.

Sara 53:34

Wow. It's just rude.

Lilly 53:37

But yeah, it's it does such an interesting balance like there is there is no good guy in war everyone loses type of thing. Because it is you it is so much from the perspective of these very tiny villages that I'm just strolling through fighting monsters in and they don't they don't care which King they have.

Sara 54:02

It's all the same to them. There isn't a good guy

Lilly 54:04

country and a bad guy country. It just sucks. And that's it's so much more level one emotionally then, you know in the show, right? There's a bad guy and a good guy country. Which I you get. I mean, it makes sense from a from that perspective, the more like highfalutin politics, but you you get just a different feeling for that conflict. And you really do well, also because it's a video game, you get that choose your own adventure aspect of the story. And you can kind of decide which side to help. It's you're not fighting on either side. But when you run into folk, you can choose to help or hinder them and you do that based you know, this is a Nilfgaardian soldier am I going to help him or am I going to kill Look, it's such a different storytelling format than anything where there's just like point A to point B in there. With a with a video game, you just have so many more complicated options that in a game like the Witcher actually does affect what happens. I am told it has not gotten that far. I'm pretty sure they do.

Sara 55:24

I would imagine that they would. It's just very

Lilly 55:26

cool experiencing a story in this way. And that's all that's my that's my What's your update? There are no good guys. I guess this is the mature update. I mean, if that checks out, maybe less murder. Okay. Thanks. Bye.

Sara 55:51

So Lily, we got a comment on Twitter. And I don't know if you saw that. Because you're you, you get our Twitter but you don't really look at our Twitter. But a regular listener in front of the show at Tony Fong commented that he picked up Mexican Gothic, after our discussion about it and put down what he was currently reading in favor of reading Mexican Gothic, which I thought

Lilly 56:18

was really, really cool. Also, I'm sorry,

Sara 56:24

or sorry, not sorry.

56:26

There you go.

Sara 56:27

But we were talking about how he was wondering if we had any more like recommendations for Gothic horror novels. And that's completely outside of my purview or my area of interest. But I thought I would pose the question to you like if you wanted to read more, what should he read? Or watch?

Lilly 56:46

Well, I do have opinions. Yeah, you through it or watch because I already told you. I would say the thing that immediately comes to mind is the movie Crimson Peak. Crimson piece peak. I don't know how many peaks there are. But it's the Guillermo del Toro movie.

Sara 57:05

I just know that Tom Hiddleston, isn't it but I've never actually watched it.

Lilly 57:07

Oh, we gotta watch it. It's very good.

Sara 57:11

We did. We made plans. At one point,

Lilly 57:13

I've been very drunk plans, which everyone knows you're not allowed to hold me to. Reasonable still do it eventually, eventually. But that I would say hits all of the same beats that Mexican Gothic does in the sort of, I call it more of a gothic romance. We've been throwing around. You've been throwing around the phrase Gothic Horror, which is slightly different.

Sara 57:41

I mean, I just I put words together that sound like they go together. I don't actually know what I'm saying.

Lilly 57:46

No, it's fine. The Gothic novel can refer to a lot of different things. So I would say it sort of depends on which elements of Mexican Gothic, particularly resonated with you, if you liked that just sort of ambiance and supernatural element. Okay, I did Google gothic horror books, and I'm going through this. A lot of them I don't think are good though. Like Dracula and Frankenstein? No. No, Dracula is an epistolary novel, Soleri epistolary novel. So it's written entirely in letters back and forth and diary entries and things and it is not the same feel as Mexican Gothic at all. The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is very good. It definitely has that ambiance to it. But it the plot structure is completely different. It doesn't have that, you know, young girl goes to a spooky castle and there's a scary family living there. Which as I discussed, is the the thrust of the Gothic romance. I think I gave spoilers for Jane Eyre in that episode. So sorry, but also that's a great one. Pretend you don't remember what I said go read Jane Eyre, because that's definitely a good one. One that I didn't bring up and also, I think covers a lot of those same tropes that I discussed for Mexican Gothic is Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier. It really has, I mean, the mystery there is top notch and then it definitely has that sort of fish out of water. You know, girl marries someone too quick and is in over her head. And if that was the aspect of Mexican Gothic that appealed to you, Rebecca has got you covered. Let me tell you, I have not actually read Wuthering Heights, but I hear very good things. Maybe I'll have to read it soon so I can give a better.

Sara 59:57

I think I read Wuthering Heights I did not, if I read it, I did not enjoy it, which texts out. Because this is not the kind of genre that I prefer.

Lilly 1:00:07

Yeah, the other thing too is that Mexican Gothic is an extremely modern participation in the genre. And a lot of the other books I've read are not period pieces, but from from the era that it sort of originated. They've got some age to them. Yeah, they do feel different. The prose is completely different. Jane Eyre and Rebecca are both very good books, but they don't read the same way because they're old.

Sara 1:00:37

I didn't like Jane Eyre. But again, this is really not my genre.

Lilly 1:00:41

Yeah. And then some of these are just bad. Interview with a Vampire. No. No bad Google. They it does recommend some Edgar Allan Poe, which I do agree with. I think I also spoiled the Fall of the House of Usher. Yes, you did. And that's that's more of a short story novella. But definitely read it. It has that the spooky Moore's scary Castle thing? Like, I mean, pose the master right. There is of course, I do not recommend reading this. Unless you're going for the historical value. I do not recommend reading the castle of a Toronto by Horace Walpole. Because it is so old. I'm not saying that old things are not fun to read. But I'm making a face that Sarah and you can't tell but the face is correct.

Sara 1:01:42

It's definitely a face. It is definitely a face.

Lilly 1:01:48

It's very fascinating to see castle of a Toronto is considered Otranto Excuse me. There's not as many ends in that word as I thought. The Castle of a Toronto is definitely I would say has historical value. We've talked a little bit about oh, maybe we haven't yet. Ooh, spoilers for bonus episodes that we have not released? Well, there there is value in reading an influential work, even if the work itself is not something you would never necessarily read for pleasure. I think so anyway. And the Castle of Otranto, it's it's very short. It's not. I wouldn't even call it a novella. I don't think, although I don't remember off the top of my head. And it is considered the very first Gothic novel period, so it founded the genre. So if that interests you go for it, if you're actually looking for a story that you like, want to get sucked into and maybe have some romantic shenanigans? No, no.

Sara 1:02:55

Your face is so unambiguous right now.

Lilly 1:03:00

I don't want to do a spoiler section for this just like little tiny bit, especially since we're talking about book recommendations. I just feel like just come so far out of left field, it's like what the book you're reading this book, and it's like, oh, spooky castle. Okay. Oh, and there's what? There's really no more to say on Kassala the Toronto I feel like this was not actually very helpful. Now, I feel bad for spoiling some of the other stuff, because those are good and what I would recommend po has a ton, like, just go read some of his he has some more like mystery detective novellas that are very, very good. They don't have that romance plotline. So I wouldn't say it hits all of the points that Mexican Gothic does. Yeah, okay. If you if you're here for the mystery go repo. If you're here for the romance, plotlines go read Bronte. Either any of them any and all of them. And

Sara 1:04:05

like everything, just go watch Crimson Peak.

Lilly 1:04:07

Exactly. There we go. I know I get to an answer. Eventually, I stumbled through it long enough.

Sara 1:04:19

So I have a pet peeve that I want to submit for consideration in the pet peeve corner. All right. I was reading a fanfiction the other day, and one of the tags is slow burn. So I was expecting that it would take like a good I don't know 15 To 20 chapters before anyone so much is like expresses their like for for the other character. And instead they're making out by like chapter eight. What unlike in a relationship by chapter nine, like this is the opposite of slow burn. This is not a slow burn,

Lilly 1:04:56

to me a slow burn so I don't have the context of how Long without pieces. But to me a slow burn means that the characters don't get together until the last like 10%. However, however far that 10% might be, they don't get together until the last 10%. That's a slow burn.

Sara 1:05:15

Yeah, I definitely was expecting. I mean, I don't have anything quite so concrete as that, but I definitely expect there to be more longing than there was and more like tension and build up. And like, don't get me wrong, this is a good fit, I'm enjoying it. But like they're having they're having wet dreams, like chapter five. And you know, they're making out at chapter eight. And it's like, this is not a slow burn. This is, this might not be a fast burn, but it's not a slow burn. Well, how long

Lilly 1:05:42

are the chapters? I feel like we're using some sort of nebulous. Third,

Sara 1:05:47

third decently long, but it just it moves fast enough. They're like, there's no, there's no buildup, right? There's no tension there. It's just like, these characters like each other. These characters are together, right? Like there's there's none of that longing.

Lilly 1:06:06

I always think it's funny when a 10,000 word story uses the tag slowburn. Yeah, that's practically flash fiction. Well, I'm sorry that you're slow burn burns too quickly.

Sara 1:06:28

I mean, it's, like I said, it's a good fact. But also just not not.

Lilly 1:06:34

Incorrect. Tagging is the worst. It really is. Because maybe you're just feeling something specific.

Sara 1:06:44

Maybe I relate. Maybe I really wanted that tension. Actually, if I wanted that tension, I would just go back and reread the legacy of the brainwash. Just thank you so much for listening to this episode of fiction fans.

Lilly 1:07:03

Come disagree with us. Or Sarah. She's on Twitter and Instagram at Michigan fans pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com

Sara 1:07:16

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Apple podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 1:07:23

Thank you again for listening and may your villains always be defeated by AI