Author Interview: A Drowned Kingdom by P.L. Stuart
- Fiction Fans
- Feb 7, 2024
- 36 min read
Episode 126
Release Date: February 7, 2024
Your hosts are joined by P.L. Stuart to talk about A Drowned Kingdom, the first book in his epic fantasy The Drowned Kingdom series. They talk about the pace of worldbuilding, unlikeable main characters, and unreliable points of view.
Find more from P.L. Stuart
Find us on discord: https://discord.gg/dpNHTWVu6b or support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/fictionfanspod
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:03
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.
Sara: 0:09
I'm Sarah and it is high time, way past high time that we had P.L Stewart onto the podcast to talk about his book A Drowned. Kingdom, thank you so much for coming on.
P.L.: 0:21
Well, thank you Lily and Sarah. I'm so honored to be here.
Lilly: 0:23
I'm so excited to talk about your book with you. But first, what is something great that happened recently?
P.L.: 0:29
Something great that happened recently. Well, I live in Canada and you know, I know a lot of people exaggerate about Canadian weather, but sometimes it gets, uh, gets pretty bad in the winter. And, uh, I live in Barrie, kind of like the snow belt, about an hour north of Toronto. And I actually had a pretty good commutes. I only had one two-hour drive. To work this week. So I work, I alternate working from home with days driving into the office. And the office is normally about an hour drive there in good weather, good traffic, but sometimes it's not. But I only had one bad drives week where I expect to have two or three because of the weather. So I know small victory, but I'm happy about it.
Sara: 1:09
Hey, that counts.
P.L.: 1:11
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy about it. So that, that went well this week.
Lilly: 1:14
Oh man, I'm such a wimp. I, I'm also hybrid in my work life and if it snows in Seattle, I'm like, that's a work-from-Home Day for me, it's rarer here so I can play that game.
P.L.: 1:26
Well, that's awesome. I'm happy for you. I'm not a hater. I'm happy
Sara: 1:30
I'm just sitting here amazed that you will go to work when you have a two hour commute.'cause I work from home and I'm like, Nope. I'm just, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that.
P.L.: 1:42
No, I'm grateful now. I used to work, shift work. I don't do that anymore. I work, you know, Monday, Friday night to five. Now I have weekends off, have holidays. I can plan my life. I can, you know, go mother, say, Hey honey, you know, what are we doing this weekend? Like that, that wasn't a, that wasn't a thing for a long time. So I'm, I'm grateful.
Lilly: 1:57
Oh, that is good. Sarah, how have you been doing? What's something great that's happened for you?
Sara: 2:01
My good thing is that sometime between the end of December and the beginning of January, I don't remember when exactly I ordered some yarn from a yarn dyer in Ireland, and my package arrived today. So it took a while, but it finally got here and I'm very pleased.
Lilly: 2:21
Is that the one you've been texting me about all day? Waiting for it to arrive.
Sara: 2:24
Yes, that is that one.
Lilly: 2:26
Do you know what you're gonna make with it?
Sara: 2:28
No,
Lilly: 2:29
Alright.
Sara: 2:30
when I bought the yarn, I had some idea and now I have no idea. So.
Lilly: 2:35
It'll be a surprise. My good thing is that earlier this week I went to go see a musical called Quixote. Nuevo. It was very good. The local Seattle Repertory Theatre up here, put it on, I guess in conjunction with the Portland and South Coast rep. I. Anyway, it's like a retelling of Don Quixote, but like a retired literature professor who's getting senile thinks he is Don Quixote because he used to teach the book and so he's like recreating the story running around his like border town in Texas. And anyway, it was very good, very sad, but amazing show.
P.L.: 3:11
So like he literally like goes charging at windmills and stuff and the whole nine,
Lilly: 3:15
it was a immigration drone, border patrol drone that he goes charging at.
P.L.: 3:21
uh,
Lilly: 3:22
Yeah.
P.L.: 3:24
I gotta check that out.
Lilly: 3:25
Yeah. It was really good. Yeah. And like I said, very sad. It, it dealt with a lot of like border stuff on the Texas, Mexico border. So it's sad by default.
P.L.: 3:35
Yeah, I, yeah, I, I get it.
Lilly: 3:37
That was a downer. That's not what I meant to do. Anyway, moving on. What's everyone drinking tonight?
Sara: 3:44
I've got some red wine, I think is Othren, how you pronounce it. I, I feel like.
P.L.: 3:50
Yeah. Author
Sara: 3:51
Yeah, I, I feel like he comments a couple of times that he is sad that he is, uh, not able to drink wine in the book, so I'm drinking it for him.
P.L.: 4:01
Oh, I am honored. Thank you. Yeah, he's definitely a wine snob.
Sara: 4:04
Yeah. Little bit.
P.L.: 4:06
He's a snob in a lot of other ways, obviously, but he's a wine snob for sure. So you drinking red
Sara: 4:11
I'm drinking red wine. Yeah.
P.L.: 4:12
Merlot Shiraz.
Sara: 4:14
whatever the, whatever the bottle said it was.
P.L.: 4:17
Well, don't need to know what it is. Just it's red wine. It's good. All red wine is good. So.
Lilly: 4:23
Yeah.
P.L.: 4:25
I, I agree. Totally concur.
Lilly: 4:27
Well, it has been for me bad weather this week, although, uh, that's, you know, relative a little bit. But at some point in time when it's been storming for too many days in a row, I just need to drink mint tea in bed. So that's where I'm at. I have my hot mug of mint tea and I'm staying warm.
P.L.: 4:47
Right now I'm just actually drinking. Believe it or not, it just mango juice. I was on a podcast earlier. I just need to keep my whistle wet, but later on I probably move on to some rum after this. This podcast is done just before bed. Just a little nightcap, probably some, some Mount Gay rum, which is the oldest rum in the world. That's Bajan rum. My background, my mother is from Barbados and Mount. Gay is smooth and it's awesome. So.
Lilly: 5:12
I'll have to check it out. I love rum is do you drink it straight or with ice?
P.L.: 5:16
Normally neat. Sometimes, you know, depending, you know, if I'm on vacation I tend to mix it'cause you want to stretch that out a bit longer.'cause I couldn't keep drinking it straight, you know, all night long. Or else I'd be in a state. But yeah.
Sara: 5:28
I was gonna say that mango, juice and rum sounds like a pretty good combination actually.
P.L.: 5:32
It is. It is. Yeah, it is. Unfortunately, when you try to stretch it out because you put the juice in and then you don't feel the effects right away, you fool yourself. Oh, it's just fruity and juicy. And then eventually, you know it gets to you.
Lilly: 5:46
Yeah.
Sara: 5:46
Yep.
Lilly: 5:47
Has anyone read anything good lately that we're not already discussing tonight? I haven't.
Sara: 5:53
Yeah, I, I have not done a lot of reading lately because we've had a lot of podcasting. I am hopefully planning this weekend on reading a Crescent City by Sarah J. Moss, because there's a new Sarah J. Moss book coming out in a couple of days in that series, and I have friends who are like super, super, super into it, and so I wanna catch up to them so that we can all be excited together or. So that they can be excited and I can read all of their spoiler tags because I like to read the spoiler tags and Discord, but I haven't actually started that yet, so that's not really a good answer.
Lilly: 6:27
I will allow it. How about you?
P.L.: 6:30
I just finished reading book four of Malazan. I pronounce Malazan Malazan. I. Pronounce it by Stephen. Erickson. It's a brilliant series. It's one of those series. Where you just have to go into and go, I don't understand what's going on, but that's okay. And just keep reading and, and then you'll understand some things, but some things don't feel that you're not intelligent. You don't have the intellect to figure it out. It's just you're kind of thrown in the deep end and left to figure things out. It's interesting that way because, you know, especially as a writer,'cause you feel like, well, I should be able to figure that out because, you know, I'm a, I'm, I'm a writer and, you know, I write complex plots and I should be able to figure that. But anyways, it's a great, it's a great series and, uh, so I just finished it up and now I'm reading a couple things. I have, I always have a couple things in ago. I have, uh, an art from H.L Tinsley, uh, awesome writer, friend of mine who wrote. We met in Ash and Shadow and that series and the Vanguard series. He's phenomenal. I was privileged to read her art called The Hallows, and I'm also reading another good writer friend of mine, the Awesome Miles slash Christian Cameron. I'm reading the last book of his Master's and Major's Trilogy, bright Steel. So that's what I kind of have on the go right now.
Sara: 7:36
Nice. You are carrying that question for us. Since neither of us had good answers.
Lilly: 7:43
Well, a book I have read recently was a Drowned Kingdom. I just noticed your hat, by the way. I love it. That's wonderful. For listeners, the symbol of the main religion from the book, and you have a shirt too. That's so cool. That.
P.L.: 7:56
I gotta represent, gotta represent Lily. Gotta gotta support the Swag. Yep. Yep.
Sara: 8:01
I always appreciate an author who has merch for their book, like I think it's fantastic.
P.L.: 8:07
It was the thing we want to my wife, who's my business manager, and the real brains behind the entrepreneurial thing, Hey, that lovey sweetheart. If she's, she might watch it later. We, sorry, listen to it later. Who knows? So, but yeah, so we initially wound up giving most away just to friends and family or at, we went to shows or cons or fairs. But of course you gotta keep some good stuff for yourself. So. I, yeah, so I, I, I, I like wearing, and I, I tend to wear it, uh, whenever I go, go to like things like this. So.
Lilly: 8:33
Awesome. Well, I love it. Okay, so one of the things I noticed reading this book is that it takes, I would say about halfway through the novel before we're really introduced to the magic system of this world. And I realized this before we got there, obviously I think I was like a quarter of the way in and I went, there's no magic in this book. It 100% feels like a fantasy novel. And then you threw me into a tailspin of what does it mean to be a fantasy novel? Why am I so convinced that this is a fantasy novel at the point where there was no magic yet and it did eventually show up. And so I felt, you know, confirmed. But I was wondering what genre you would consider this book and why.
P.L.: 9:14
Oh, that's a great question. I do consider fantasy epic fantasy, as you know for reading it and those who've read it, it's. Inspired largely in part by Plato's Tale of the Lost. Realm of Atlantis. And most people, most experts would say that Atlantis never existed. That said, there's many people who believe it did. So I think that definitely straddles the realm of fantasy because you're not quite sure if it's just all made up, but as well, it is a fictionalized world. It's totally my crazy, you know, imagination that that created my version of what Atlantis would be like. And it's funny, a lot of people categorize my book and read it as such an enjoy as historical fiction. I think for that you have to make a leap, uh, and make the presumption that Atlantis did exist in some form, and then you have to make the leap that, well, this is PL's version of something that really existed. And then from there, then. You're saying Pihal is making his account his version of something that really existed and that would make it historical fiction. Some people classify as historical fantasy, so pretty well the same thing, except the fact that you add the fantastical elements. So I mean, what I would categorize it, I do categorize it as epic fantasy, one of the military fantasy side that comes up more I think in the books that follow a kingdom, but. Yeah, pretty well epic fantasy. That's my take on it. But you know, I talk about this a lot that when you write a book, you have ownership and accountability for it, but once it's out in the wild, it is whatever you Lily or you, Sarah, think it is, right? It's not really mine anymore. It's all your impressions and your thought processes are, and everything's added in there and mixed together, and that's what the book is.
Lilly: 10:53
We also ultimately landed on Epic fantasy. I agree with that completely. It was just, I had to philosophize because until this book, I would've told you the definition of fantasy is a book that has some kind of fantastical element to it. But, you know, reading about the very grounded, you know, like politics and economics of this world, I was like, this is just a real place that it like that doesn't exist. Why do I consider this fantasy? And I was right. It is, but I had to think about it.
P.L.: 11:23
Yeah, I wanted you to feel that way. I wanted you to feel like this was a real tangible place that existed, you know, millennia go in the dim, uncharted years where history could be interpreted as. Potentially something other than No. And that this place is now gone and that is, there is an element of tragedy there. Although the place had a lot of issues, like all empires, there's an of tragedy that the, some of the beauty of it has vanished never to be seen again. I wanted that to be kind of a lasting impression.
Sara: 11:53
I do think that definitely there is a very strong sense of place in this book with the, the Empire and, and all of that, and all of the world building that you do. And for, as a reader, it was a little bit slow going into it because we're introduced to all of these concepts. Right. And I don't, I don't mean that in a negative way, just that we get so much about the world and the society, right? And then at a certain point things start happening really, really fast. The pace picks up really dramatically. Was that the same experience when you were writing it, like the first quarter, the first 50% took longer because you were building out the world and, and then everything went much faster? Or did it all kind of go at that same pace?
P.L.: 12:40
Well, it's funny as writing it. I wrote the editing of the book first and then I came back. I'm weird that way. You've interviewed lots of writers. We have these weird habits and traits, but for me, to be honest with you, the world building part, so the book is divided. Three parts. As you know, predominantly world building is a lot of it's front-loaded in the, in the first part of the three, and that was the easy part, right, because that's. Really, I mean, if I have, I'm not saying it's a skill or strength, but if I have an element of my writing that I really enjoy, that I feel that I can do well, it's that the worldbuilding, right? I've taught this on a podcast like I never thought people would really think my ballad scenes were good, but people seem to really like them, but it's not something that I thought would be a strength. And this book doesn't have many, like the books to follow have lots, but the worldbuilding is the easy part. That's, you know, creating the world.'cause it's all in my crazy head. Right. And, you know, I have all my maps and my geological charts and, you know, my timelines and it's, it's all just, it's just like, you kind of spit it out. I don't wanna say vomit it out because that, it sounds kind of more chaotic. But literally it just, blah, it just comes out. I think that because I'm a real plotter and the entire seven book saga that I have is all planned out, down to the titles of the books and the, the cover art and, you know, all of the plot lines. It, you know, it, it, it really wasn't a onerous on me to write any part of. At John Keenan was the easiest book I've written to date. It just went, that's the book. I know it sounds crazy, but whereas my second book was tough to write for different reasons. But anyways, yeah, it was, it wasn't hard at all.
Lilly: 14:09
Was your second book, the second book in this series?
P.L.: 14:12
Yes, my second book was second book in the series and it was tough to write mostly because of things like imposter syndrome, you know, more on that end because you know, you feel that you're taking all the things that people liked or didn't like about the first book. You're looking at what nominal marginal success you enjoy and said, okay, well all of you are expecting the second book to be even better. So if you don't make it better, then you know you haven't succeeded. So I felt that pressure, I think, and even though a lot of people love the second book more than the first book, um, the first book's, my baby. my baby. Right? I was just do, uh, on another podcast, I'll go Ryan Cale about that. It just has a special place in your heart, right? And so this one that we're talking about does for me.
Sara: 14:50
I feel like, and I'm not a writer at all, but I, I. Feel like the first book is for you and then the second book, and every, everything subsequent to that has expectations because you've put out that first book or the other books in the series into the world. And as you've said, like people are bringing their own viewpoints and, and their own perspectives to the series. And you have to balance that versus what you wanna do and what you're like thinking of. And I, that just sounds a lot harder to me.
P.L.: 15:17
Yeah, it can be, you know, some things I really like to write about. I love to write, uh, romance relationships. I get to write more of that in later in the series. You know, sibling relationships, I. Somewhat in this book, obviously it's a big part, but parental relationships, things like that, I, I get to write about that later on in the series. But, um, you know, this book was very much of course as a first book, the Laying Everything Out, othrin.
Lilly: 15:50
Was fascinating to me because he was such a, well say, interesting guy to be kind to him. No, he sucks and was very racist and terrible all around. But did you have any special considerations around writing a main character who's so deeply flawed?
P.L.: 16:12
Well, I wanted to write the things he was saying and his viewpoints and his things. He was espousing as sensibly as I could, but as realistic and as forthright and blunt as I could. That's kind of a delta balance, I guess, and I wanted to depict someone who was real that you would think, I met someone like this and this is how they sound, but I wanted you to be able to look behind that. And also see some of his positive qualities and see that why he was the way he was, did he have any hope of change based on things like his upbringing, the people he's surrounding himself with now, and the people who have influence his upbringing, the um, experiences he's going to encounter. So the things I considered most with him that was making him seem authentic. You know, of course in the context I write, it's kind of analogous to like a medieval type period. So, uh, people don't have as long lives. They, you know, 50 50, you're pretty old and you, you do things more accelerated. You marry young. You have children younger, you take on responsibility younger, and he does. But so it, it's easy to forget that, you know, as much as your, your life in terms of lived is shorter and some processes are accelerated, he's still normally a pretty young guy. Right. And, and there's an element of maturity there too. I want you to look at. You know, is this realistic for someone who, based on his upbringing of privilege and royal and at the pinnacle of a society who thought they're the pinnacle of every society and, you know, everything else that went around him and, and his, his rather dysfunctional family and all those things, was it realistic? What I really aimed for was realism. So if he seems realistic, then I did my job. That was the main consideration. I wanted to be realistic.
Sara: 17:46
I definitely feel like you nailed that and it was really interesting for me because like I'm not a huge grimdark reader. Like, I don't like, or I, I tend not to enjoy stories where the main character and the world are, are so flawed and, and dark. Not that the world particularly was especially dark. I mean, not compared to Grimdark, but Othryn certainly was. And yet I still found myself invested in his character journey. And I, I thought that was really, really well done.
P.L.: 18:20
Thank you. Well, I'm honored. Well, that means that you did my job.'cause that's what my aim is. I want you to be invested in authoring invested to see can he change, to what degree will he change how we navigate all the. Myriad of problems that he's facing. Because, I mean, I think the one thing that, um, can get lost sometimes is, I mean, I'll say, what would you do if you were him put in his position, in the situation he's in, dealing with the problems he has? I mean, they're, they're not easy, right? And so I think you also gain a little bit of empathy for him in that, in that, you know, what he's confronting is a lot, you know, realistically he is confronted with a lot of challenges.
Lilly: 18:56
Absolutely. Can I assume that the whole series follows him as the main character, or does it jump around?
P.L.: 19:01
While the whole series follows him as the main character, you will see more POVs and different POVs as the series progresses. Um, strictly his POV. And when we get to. Second book, you'll have a couple of chapters from, I won't spoil anything from other characters in the book, and they're first person as well. And that continues in Norden King, the third book where you all, and you also get an omnipotent third person perspective in the prologue. And then what do you get into Alliance Pride, which is the fourth book, which is about to be published, you know? Yeah. You have a couple of POVs. Third person, author, and first person, and it just continues from there because there's a reason for that. You know, it often is of course an unreliable narrator and I don't want you as a reader to see certain things other than from his limited, flawed perspective until later in the series. So as things kind of are revealed you like, ah, that's what was going on with that. Right? So that's a big reason for the, for the first person, pov.
Lilly: 19:58
You just answered my next question just because. Othrin admits out loud that he wants to rewrite history. He intends to rewrite history, which makes me as the reader reading his perspective, go, well now I can't trust anything you say. It was delightful. I felt like seen by the characters somehow.
P.L.: 20:22
Yeah, and you know, I think that is also part of, obviously one of the themes that, you know, history in all of its forms isn't always necessarily reliable because of the people who are writing it. And that authoring is certainly not the first. Leader, you know, past or present that that chooses to rewrite narratives for their own benefit. You know, we're faced with that even in modern times. Right? So this is something so new and earth-shattering, simply presenting it from a first-person perspective where you're kind of forced to like, well for now all I have is his first perspective and he's claimed that this is how things happened, right? But as the series progresses, you do see it's easier to delineate how much of what he's telling you is spot-on gospel truth, and how much is. You know, either, you know, viewpoints.
Sara: 21:10
Well, that makes me very excited to continue reading the series and, and to see how his viewpoint continues to be unreliable and in in what ways it's unreliable. But one thing that he talks about a lot and, and one of the main conflicts in this book is. This tension between the quote-unquote pagans who worship multiple gods and the Atalanteans who worship the single God. And that's kind of a through line through the entire book. Can you talk about writing that tension a little bit?
P.L.: 21:42
Obviously one of the themes in the book is appreciate for the other religions religious persecution. Would it be considered appropriate for, you know, one religion to subjugate another to not only subjugate, but essentially. Another because they feel their religion is the better one that they're doing for the good of their religions. And this is how empires, colonial empires in particular operate historically. All the great empires, you know, that have ever existed and go back as far as human history exists. And that's their blueprint, that's their playbook. So, um, that's the Atlanteans playbook I want specifically with the way that authoring the Atlanteans cast other religions as heathens and pagans that, you know, without perhaps examining their own religion very closely. Because they take it as essentially, you know, the only true religion. What happens when you grow up with that worldview and you've never, you've never really been exposed to other religions on into level what happens when some of that security and the safety and the foundation of that is ripped away a bit. When you actually do come into contact with people, whoever the beliefs, and when they can rationalize those beliefs, the way you rationalize your own, and when you meet intelligent, thoughtful people can articulate. Why their religion matters and why it has credence and why yours might not. And you know, he's never been challenged on that, right? It was a done deal. But as the book goes on, there is that clash. He thinks that he's going to come in and as the Atlantis have done, you know, forcibly if necessary, subjugate and everyone will, will of course see the light in was religion. Well, when you come against people who they have in it and they have their own. Thank you very much. Gods and goddesses and ways of doing things, and they have their own reasons for why they do and they have their own, you know, historical context going back hundreds or thousands of years, maybe even predating your own religion. Yeah, it was quite the eye opener. So I wanted the reader to see, you know, how the potential for religious enlightenment could occur. Doesn't mean that it will, but how it could, how it.
Lilly: 23:38
You are gonna open the door for him and whether he steps through or not, we don't know yet. I don't know yet.
P.L.: 23:44
Well said. Well said yes. And that if process, he might not.
Lilly: 23:49
Well, we're gonna be able to talk in a little bit more detail about things he may or may not do once we get to the spoilers section. But before we get there, I have a question for Sarah. Sarah, who should read this book?
Sara: 24:00
You should read this book if you like, political, epic Fantasy with extensive world building, and if you want a long series to sink your teeth into. The series isn't complete yet, but three books are out. The fourth book sounds like is coming out very soon, so you have a lot to read in the meantime.
Lilly: 24:19
The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So I brought up at the very beginning how the magic system is sort of implied at first. Uh, maybe that's not quite the right way to say it. The Druids obviously are doing something we don't really know what.
Sara: 24:42
Although, although, I mean, yes, I think in hindsight they are doing something, but in the beginning I will say that I kind of thought that it was just propaganda and they weren't actually doing something.
Lilly: 24:56
I was not convinced they were doing human sacrifices. That I was like, there's, that's definitely made
Sara: 25:01
I wasn't convinced they were doing any kind of magic at all.
Lilly: 25:04
interesting.
Sara: 25:06
Until we knew for sure that there was magic in the world.
Lilly: 25:09
I said implied.
Sara: 25:10
But yeah.
Lilly: 25:12
Well, we do see more concrete magic later on. How much can you give us a teaser, I guess, about how much of the magic system we've seen in this first book compared to what we have coming later in the series?
P.L.: 25:26
Okay, so first of all, I mentioned earlier about wanting to give the reader or choosing. Unreliable first-person narrative. And the magic is a big part of that because I mean, obviously as a reader, you can read this book and go, is this all in author's mind? Is he imagining this? Is this really happening? Some of the phenomenon that happened, can that be explained rationally by non-magical means? Could that have happened? Talked about the Druids. Well, did they really do this? Did they do all these things spirited people away? Did they engage in human sacrifice? Did they not? There's no. Tangible hard evidence to it. I wanted the ambiguity. I wanted you as a reader to question what's really going on here? Okay? And I wanted you to have that feeling. But in the book, is there really a magic in this book? Or is this all coincidence? Some things that happen, is this all an author says it's often going crazy? Is he lying to you? Like, I wanted that feeling of, you know, we're not really quite sure what's going on here. And how this all works yet. So the first book, I definitely wanted that, that feeling. As the series progresses, you get to learn slowly. I peel back layers, a layer here, layer there, and you understand to what degree this is real and this could potentially be imagined or false in terms of what's going on. This could be simply enough to coincidence, but oh, this is. Seems like it's definitely something going on here magically. But again, it's a progression. It's a seven-book series and I don't reveal everything right away. It's something that, again, I peel back the layers. So by the time you get to realm book four, that's when things really start to kind of explode in terms of the magical element. But I do want you to have that feeling of, you know, disorientation in terms of. I don't really know if I can trust that this is magic. That might be magic, but I don't know about this. Did this really happen The way he said, what is he really seeing? I, I.
Lilly: 27:17
I personally was using Galthon as my like compass in this book, which maybe was wrong because even Galthon's dialogue. Was told to me from Othrin's point of view, but that was really like how I oriented myself, especially with like the angelic visitor who told Othrin that he's the chosen one. I was like, that's convenient. Hmm. But Galthin does say like, Hey, how did you learn this language overnight? And so to me I was like, okay, that means something did happen. And that's all. That's all I can say about that.'cause I haven't read the second book yet.
P.L.: 27:54
Well, yeah, Gryphon Authron's cousin, he's an interesting character in that he is probably one of the most benevolent, wise, kind, thoughtful, introspective, open-minded, considering he's raising the same environment as Authron, essentially, he's, he's only kind of a, a rank below Authron in, in the hierarchy. He's part of the royal family, but Nathan is more, well-traveled. He's more cultured. He has been to Urquamia previously, so he's encountered the culture, the cultures that Authron is about to encounter. He knows much more about them than Authron. He's had that exposure. He's also generally more tolerant. And there's reasons for that, which you'll learn later why? But Gleithin is a good barometer in a lot of ways for the kind of grounded in reality as you, as you point out, like Othren uses Gleithin as that when Othren is going off kilter. Hold on to Gleithin, what Gleithin's saying. Right. You know, he believes in me. He knows what the right thing to do. Is he, you know, he, he's my moral compass. He's my advisor. So he's a, he's, he is a good barometer in a lot of ways. If you'll remember, Gleithin doesn't always necessarily comment about the veracity of something author says, but he says that he generally, he believes in him, right? So that's a general overall endorsement rather than the specific thing that author may be talking about. And as well, I think Gleithin believes in author despite author's obvious flaws. So I think hopefully the readers, they ask themselves why would someone as smart and kind and nice Aston. Just wanna follow this dude, right? Who's this way, right when, when Gleithin himself seems a lot more fit, he's a lot more kingly. A lot more magisterial in his bearing. He's wiser, he's more mature, he's older. Like, you know, Gleithin should be the king, if anybody, right? So, but yet he, he's just bound on following Operon. But again, those things are kind of explained as we go along in the series.
Sara: 29:41
So you mentioned that you've had kind of a real, a really clear vision for where you're going from the beginning of writing. How different is the final version of this book? From the first draft I.
P.L.: 29:52
It is. I would say if I could align it a percentage, it's probably seventy-five percent the same. I think what's changed is you both are very experienced readers and you spoke to a lot of writers. I. Except for that phenomena of sometimes characters just take the hell over. They just grab you and go, sorry, I need more page time, and I'm taking it. And there's nothing you can do about it. As a writer, you are like, okay, I know that sounds really, really crazy, but it is. It's a real phenomenon. So for example, Lysy, one of my favorite characters in the book, her role was, wasn't going to be as Prominent as it ends up being throughout the whole series. She was more of a minor character and she just said, Nope. I need more page time. So for, with the exception of that and a couple of more minor subplots, I largely, you know, the series is what I planned out and attended because like I said, I'm probably a planner to the extreme. So, uh, where we wind up after seven books is overall pretty well exactly where I wanted us to get to. And hopefully it's an interesting journey.
Sara: 30:50
It's interesting that you say that Lysie was originally intended to be a minor character because I definitely got major character vibes from her.
P.L.: 30:58
Yes, she is a major, major character. She is in a lot of ways, offense, foil. They're very similar but yet very different, and she's one of the few characters in the book that can put it off in his place, call him out on the things he says and does challenge him. And yet, of course she has a, a real interest in him romantically, which, you know, obviously conventions could create a lot of tension. Yeah, she kind of took over and I love her character. I love writing. All her scenes are always my favourite, favourite to write. And I just find it to be really compelling and someone who, you know, a lot of people say they can't get enough of Lacey in the books, and you'll see more of her as the books go on. I.
Sara: 31:34
Well, good.
Lilly: 31:36
So we've talked a little bit about all of the world-building that we've gotten in this first book. Is there an aspect that you think ends up being the most important later on that the reader might not realize?
P.L.: 31:48
Well, there's a few aspects. What I can say is this, number one, I think a lot of people were surprised, although those who know, I mean, the tale of it is one of. Popular fables ever written. People know it sinks. I, I say right up front that it sinks on the, the back where there's no spoiler that it then sinks. But I, I think for some people it was the extent to which I built up that world, my version of that world, and then essentially destroyed it. So that might've been a bit surprising that, you know, we spent a lot of time, you know, like, um, learning about lentus and how the society worked, as you said, and the histories, the analogies, you know, the customs and the different parts, the different regions, and, and then you destroy it. There's a few reasons for that. One, because there will be two prequel trilogies, which will explore Atlantis. You'll get to spend a lot more time in in Atlantis, and those prequel trilogies will be grounded on characters that often idolizes, but that lived long before he was born. That don't quite turn out to be the way he kind of thought they were.
Lilly: 32:44
Oh, that's, that's the purple Prince. And I wanna say acklin, and I know that's wrong.
P.L.: 32:48
Adaline. Yes.
Lilly: 32:49
yeah.
P.L.: 32:50
know that, so, so the Purple Prince, whose name is Archlin and Adaline, the first king of Atlantis, who often idolizes, they're like, his tailor is Swift, right? So he thinks that they're the greatest warriors ever, the greatest lords ever. But they don't turn out the other way. He. Thought anyways. You'll learn that in the prequels all about them and why they're relevant to things that are happening in the series. So at Atlantics itself, for all the worldbuilding that I create throughout the John King Saga, the part about at Atlantics itself that is only really for one third of the book and gets wiped out, that's really the most important part.
Lilly: 33:27
So I'm guessing you didn't then sync all of your worldbuilding. Notes in the bathtub after Atlantis sank. You weren't like ceremoniously drowning all of your notes and everything.
P.L.: 33:42
No. Well, I mean, Akremia has a rich history, rich cultures, languages. You'll hear and learn a lot about Akremia as the series goes on, the new continent that they go to. But although I do give you a lot of history and genealogy, et cetera, with the new world Akremia. The first third of the Drowned Kingdom. A Drowned Kingdom. The first book is the most important element of everything to come. And what I do, just I guess as an inside knowledge, I write very circular plots. So what has gone before will come again, and I do a lot of foreshadowing. So by the time you get to, you get to the second book, it's like, oh, that was foreshadowed. Oh, that was foreshadowed. And so I think discerning readers will definitely see, and when they get to you in the book, I hope people go, oh man, I should have figured that out because you know, that's where everything started. But I would mention there is another seven book series planned subsequent to this series called The Drunken Saga that will wrap up the entire universe. So this seventh series. Two prequel trilogies. That is the buzz or short stories I write. We'll see if they get rid.
Lilly: 34:54
I love it. What's your, uh, publishing order plan? Is it first this seven book series and then the prequels and then the final series, or what's your plan? Yeah.
P.L.: 35:03
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Some book series first. Then I will take you back about 500 years to the beginnings and origins of Atalantix and you'll get to meet the first king of Atalantix, but not told through his eyes, through the eyes of another character. And then you will get to meet the Purple Prince. Which is another couple hundred years forward and, and again, all these will tie into the Sun Book series with Arthur and the Dragon King saga that you're currently reading. And then there will be a final Sun Book series to wrap everything
Lilly: 35:32
Awesome.
Sara: 35:32
I am excited because two of my favorite things are A, seeing how history or historical events have changed and become kind of legend in a world, and also going back. To the beginning of a series, once I've read through it and seeing all of the foreshadowing. So it sounds like I get both of those things with your books, so I'm very excited by that.
P.L.: 35:59
Thank you. I hope I succeed in meeting those expectations. I think I'm able to explore more elements and aspects of my writing, like narratives. Multiple perspectives. You know, the battle scenes really intensify, the romance gets dialed up. You know, the heat death factor definitely gets dialed up as we progress, you know, and that's not for everybody, but that's always something that I enjoy writing. I've always want to write romance, love, sex. Those are just parts of the human experience that I think make, uh, books realistic. I know it's not for especially fancy readers, a lot of them are. Too fussy about that, but you know, I like it. And even relationships, right? Relationships are at the core. I'm a, I'm a character driven writer, and I'm a character driven reader. They are characters of what I find interesting. The, the people.
Sara: 36:43
How do you manage character growth versus. Consistency over a multi-book arc. Like we've talked a little bit about how you have a, a definite plan for this series and how Othrin starts out as this very flawed character and has these opportunities to grow. But how do you manage that growth?
P.L.: 37:01
Well, I think, again, Sarah goes back to realism, so I would submit and argue, and of course, open to being challenged that most people don't change overnight and that most people don't change unless either draft. Events happen their life that compel them to change or it is a, a long sustained kind of over long life. So this age of quaint smoking may take you several, 10, 15, 20 tests may take you 20 years until you finally actually quit. You'll start and you'll, you may go cold Turkey, and then that doesn't work and you smoke again, and then you try the patch and then that works for a while. And then. And eventually you find your method, but that may take years. And so I think if I could use biology, change is gradual. There are failures like misfires, and you try to change, you have the best of intentions, it doesn't work. You slide back into your old habits or ways that something happens, you move, make some progression. You might take three steps forward, two steps back, and it's that journey. Right. And that, I guess part of it is when you tried to quantify change, how much did this person change over the course of this period? I think that's a really hard thing to nail down. Right? Uh, but that's what I want to depict with Authrin. You know, he's gonna go through these periods. Some things, he's just going to be so entrenched because we're human, that's where we are, that he won't be able to change. He may be able to change this aspect, but not this aspect. Or he may be able to change all of them you have to read on to see. But you know, that's what I wanted to depict. It goes back to the realism. So that's how I imagine it. I try to make it. Realistic because, because some reason they say, I really wanna see him change quickly and not be this, this horrible person. But I don't think that that's something that's not a realistic depiction of, I think human nature and how people change. So.
Lilly: 38:48
What about you? Has your favorite character in the series changed as you've been writing it?
P.L.: 38:53
So my three favorite characters in the series, one, I can't get with the spoiler as to this character's change evolution, but I can say that their change is more because of very, very extreme circumstances and them trying to influence other people a certain way. Because of this radical belief that they took on. But then finding that maybe everything they've done has been a bit too drastic and maybe finding a more balanced approach to change. And that's something they don't find until the end of the book. I can't really talk about the character too much. So now let's talk about Arthur, who is also heavy character. So Arthur, his change. Again, without giving a race, spoilers, it is going to be tumultuous. And there will be times you will clearly say, oh yeah, he's really progressed on this element. And there'll be times you're like, he ain't changed a damn bit. That'll be frustrating. There'll be moments of frustration with him, lots of them. But there'd be also moments where you might start to question, you know what, I kind of see where he's coming from. I don't agree with it, but, but I kind of see why he's, where he is coming from, what he's doing. So that will be interesting. And then when it comes to Lysie. Who wasn't probably my, my other favorite character that I'll talk about, her change of progression is very much like author and she wants power. I. She knows how to get that power. She's playing a very long game. But Othrin is the, the flying Deointment because of her love for him. And how will she be able to achieve what she wants and still get Othrin. It's gonna become pretty clear that something's gonna have to give there. So will she stay true to her ambitions or is she gonna stay true to her? Love for Othrin and that's, that's kind of like, you know, gonna be the push and pull there.
Lilly: 40:45
I don't know if it's coming, but I am waiting for a, a showdown between her and I've forgotten author's wife. Name, alias. Something like that.
P.L.: 40:55
Oh.
Lilly: 40:56
Yeah. Thank you. Well, Piel, before we let you go, what would you like readers to take away from this book?
P.L.: 41:05
Uh, a, a few things. One, in this book, women are represented because we're seeing often this very flawed, misogynistic point of view. Uh, women, other than women like Lysy don't seem to have a lot of power. I don't see to have a lot of agency. I think you'll quickly realize as you progress in the book that the Drowned Kingdom Saga is about women and their agency and their power, and you'll quickly see by, especially by the time you get to book three and four, just how powerful and just how much agency the women in this book have and that they are actually the heart of everything that's going on. And number two, I would ask you to realize that first of all, often views are showing not my own, they're the antithesis of my own. And that although it may be frustrating, I believe that the book is worth reading and the series is worth reading to see Often's journey. I. And to see what their journey tells us about ourselves as human beings and our capacity for change. Why we should change, why it's important, and if through see his journey, can we solve some of the conundrums that his journey represents? I.E. colonialism, racism, homophobia, misogyny, you know, religious intolerance. Are these things that can be solved like. By humankind. When we get to this utopian state where they don't exist anymore, are they always gonna be with us? And how can someone who is a bigot, uh, is there hope for them? What do you do with these people? Do you just write them off, leave them alone, isolate them, try and help them, fix them? What's to be done with them and. What do you do with it when there's someone who is in a position of power and influence and that there are decisions based on their views affect other people affect whole, you know, countries or continents or worlds even. And then finally, I wanted to express that I. I want to give you a feel of this is an epic kind of classical fantasy in a lot of ways. Yes, there's often an element about, but you know, it harkens back to those old, old-time classics that hopefully has some, some interesting, uh, political drama and some interesting battle scenes and a lot of human family drama and the journey of an anti-hero. Kinda like the person who thinks he's the hero, but maybe he's the villain. We're always the hero of our own story, but I hope that people find that compelling.
Sara: 43:22
I mean, and we haven't even talked about the, just to pick up on one tiny thing that you've said. We haven't even talked about the battle scenes, but they were very good.
Lilly: 43:30
And the sex scene, we got a tiny bit of.
Sara: 43:33
Yes.
P.L.: 43:34
Very tame compared to what's coming later. So.
Lilly: 43:37
Ooh, I'm excited. I know that faded to black and I was like.
P.L.: 43:43
Yeah, they're very tamed to what's coming later. I think for some people, I think the fourth rule is bit shocker'cause there's quite a bit of that, quite a bit of romance, sex, love and things and, but anyways, yeah, it progresses so intensifies.
Sara: 43:55
Well, those things are part of life, so it makes sense that they're part of fiction too. And I know that some people don't like'em, but I, I think that more books should include them.
Lilly: 44:04
I love reading romance novels, so when you can stick romance in other novels, I'm like, yeah, fun.
P.L.: 44:10
I hope you enjoy, you know what's to come if you do continue with the series, you know, because there will be a lot of romantic entanglements, so.
Sara: 44:17
Well, I'm definitely looking forward to continuing the series and talking about continuing the series. You said that book four is coming out soon. Can you tell us a little bit about that release date when we can expect it?
P.L.: 44:30
Well, thank you Sarah. Uh, don't have quite a firm release date yet. I always say with my books this spring, I try to release a book every year, and I've been successful in doing that. Thus far in the series. So every spring, somewhere between, you know, end of February and beginning of May, I release a book. And then the fifth book was entitled A Pack of Wolves. I hope to be again out in the spring of 2025 and I won't give away the titles for the last two books. But expect them in the spring of 2026 and 2027 respectively. So Alliance Pride, the fourth book is, it's a game changer. It's kind of, I talked about all those mysteries a lot that you get in the beginning. You're wondering, you get a lot of answers, not to everything, but you get a lot of answers. In Alliance Pride and the battle scenes, you see some very big scale battle scenes in those books. There's a lot of romance and a lot of political intrigue and a lot of things come to a head in that book. A lot of things come to a head and there's also some time jumps. So yeah, it's, it's a lot to absorb. I think it's also the biggest book of the series. It's around 600 pages. That's the biggest book of the series. The rest are between four and five. So the next book a pack will be shorter, more like the 400 ish range, so, uh, more like a drone kingdom size. So yeah, it's a pretty big book. It is the middle book of the series.
Sara: 45:50
Well, it sounds like it has something for everyone. One, can you tell us where our listeners can find you on the internet so they can keep track of your releases and, and everything coming up?
P.L.: 46:00
My preferred handle is Twitter. It's at PO. Stewart writes also on Instagram and Facebook, however, less frequently, still the same handle at PO. Stewart writes, www.poestor.com is my website where you can learn about the books and your releases as well. I, you know, I'm pretty active in the social media space with my wonderful co-host. Taylor, maybe between the pages. We have a podcast called Page Chewing, um, where we interview creatives and wonderful people from the community and Lily and Sarah, you are two of those people we're, I'm hoping to, that you'd give us the honor of coming on in the future. You two are amazing. You're so wonderful, you're so supportive of everyone in the community, so we'd love to have you on page Chewing at some point in the future.
Lilly: 46:45
Name the date and we're there.
P.L.: 46:46
fantastic. I.
Lilly: 46:48
Yeah, I said it on the recording.
P.L.: 46:53
I am an assistant editor with Before Go Blog, led by the incredible Beth Tabler. So really before Go Blog Crew Www.beforegoblog.com to give you my reviews. I'm also posted typically on Goodreads as well. So yeah, that's pretty well where you can find me.
Lilly: 47:07
Fantastic. Well, I've got some reading to catch up on before April-May, it sounds like, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, it has been such a blast talking to you, and hopefully we'll talk to you soon, maybe over on your side of things next time.
P.L.: 47:21
Oh, that would be, that would be absolutely wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much Liam and Sarah for having me. I'm extremely honoured to be here and, uh, hopefully you enjoyed the book and hopefully you can turn in the series and you enjoy the rest. So thank you so much for giving my work a chance.
Sara: 47:39
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Lilly: 47:43
Come disagree with us. We are on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok at Fiction fans Pod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod. At Gmail.com.
Sara: 47:54
If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.
Lilly: 48:02
We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find our show notes and a lot of other.
Sara: 48:09
Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.
Lilly: 48:13
Bye.
