The Last Hero by Terry Pratchett & illustrated by Paul Kidby

Episode 114

Release Date: November 1, 2023

Your hosts discuss The Last Hero, a Discworld fable written by Terry Pratchett and illustrated by Paul Kidby. They talk about its use of Discworld characters as fable archetypes and the various fun cameos that pop up, as well as how it examines the different aspects of heroing. They also go over some of their favorite illustrations from the book. This episode contains a retroactive pet peeve corner.

Find us on discord: https://discord.gg/dpNHTWVu6b or support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/fictionfanspod

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly:0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara:0:10

Sarah.

Lilly:0:11

and today we'll be discussing The Last Hero by Terry Pratchett, illustrated by Paul Kidby, first Sarah, with something great that happened recently.

Sara:0:20

Something great that happened is I went to a concert last night that was fun.

Lilly:0:25

Nice.

Sara:0:26

I did kind of wanna be at home the entire time, but it was still a good thing because I left my house. The music was good. not familiar with the artists or the band before going, but I like their music. So success.

Lilly:0:41

Nah, and concerts are fun.

Sara:0:43

Concerts are fun. I did kind of feel like the band as people were maybe a little bit of assholes, they just kind of had that vibe. You know, they did a lot of crowd surfing.

Lilly:0:55

Mm mm-hmm. that's a choice.

Sara:0:56

yeah. So so I didn't actually like them as people, but as performers, they were great.

Lilly:1:02

Well, hilariously on the flip side of that, my good thing is that I did not leave the house at all yesterday, specifically, I did a hell of a lot of cooking. I made pumpkin coffee cake. It's officially fallen now. I have made a pumpkin baked good.

Sara:1:16

that is the

Lilly:1:17

It's like Groundhog Day. yeah, And then I also started, What I refer to as my two day stew, it takes two days in the crockpot, but it's worth it. First, I caramelize onions for a day as if I was going to make french onion soup. But then, morning I added, beef roast, which will then cook for another, like 12 plus hours in with the caramelized onions and stock and, and some herbs and things. And then by the end, we'll have beef stew that's half beef, half caramelized onion,

Sara:1:51

I think you should send me this recipe, please, and thank you.

Lilly:1:54

It is not really a recipe, it's kind of just smushing two recipes together.

Sara:1:58

I think you should send me what you, what you do for

Lilly:2:01

Alright..I can do that. it takes a hell of a long time so do have to play in advance, but it's not a lot of active time.

Sara:2:12

I mean, I'm fine with a meal taking two days if it just is two days in the crockpot and I don't have to do much. Like that's fine. I can do that.

Lilly:2:21

And I am a big wimp about onions, so it does always start with me saying, Daniel, will you chop eight onions for me? Thank you,

Sara:2:30

That's a lot of onions.

Lilly:2:32

I'm, it's half onion. It it, that is not an exaggeration.

Sara:2:36

No, but that sounds delightful.

Lilly:2:38

and then you put cheese on top. It really is like french onion soup, but with stuff in it instead of just onions.

Sara:2:43

Yeah.

Lilly:2:44

I'll probably throw in some like mushrooms and carrots and stuff later today, but they don't need to cook for fucking hours,

Sara:2:50

No, they do not

Lilly:2:50

So, uh, that's not done yet, except my whole house has smelled like onions for the last day and a half, and it's fantastic.

Sara:2:57

sounds delightful.

Lilly:2:59

what are you drinking this morning? We're recording in the morning for once, which is very weird.

Sara:3:04

It, it does make for change. I have a tea. it is blue oolong mint tea or something. I don't actually remember the ingredients in it. I bought it in Morocco. It's very good. Uh, I'm sad that I can't buy it in the States.

Lilly:3:21

Hmm mm. We just mix oolong and mint together.

Sara:3:24

I mean, I'm, yes, I could, I'm sure that I could find the ingredients and make it, but that's effort.

Lilly:3:31

I am drinking coffee with Lon Lon, which I'm sure I have pronounced incorrectly.

Sara:3:37

What is that?

Lilly:3:39

the bottle is really cute though. Here listeners might be able to hear me move it because it has a cowbell on

Sara:3:47

Oh, that is very cute. Oh, it's

Lilly:3:49

It's like a Spanish whiskey liqueur,

Sara:3:52

nice.

Lilly:3:53

cream liqueur specifically. it tastes like caramel. It's very good. And it's got a cute cowbell on the bottle.

Sara:4:01

It does sound like something that would go well in coffee.

Lilly:4:05

It's very good. Yeah. So just a little, just a little fun for my morning. Have you read anything good lately?

Sara:4:11

I have read a lot of fan fiction and I have read, podcast books and

Lilly:4:20

There's been a lot

Sara:4:22

not a lot else because yes, there's been, there's been a lot of, recording.

Lilly:4:28

I have been reading a lot of court coverage of the F T X lawsuit. I don't know if anyone else, well, I know someone else in the world caress about this. I don't know if there's a lot of overlap between you slash our listeners and cryptocurrency drama, but it is bonkers and delightful a schadenfreude sense.

Sara:4:49

hmm, I'm not following it. but that does sound like a lot of fun drama.

Lilly:4:53

Oh my goodness. I, I don't know how well you said you're not following it. This was kind of old news, but before the case actually started, Sam Bankman Fried or Freed, I don't care how to pronounce his name, I'm not going to look it up, leaked his ex-girlfriend's diary to try to smear her as a witness. Because of course, you know, he made his ex-girlfriend the c e o of one of the companies that is getting in trouble. Uh, clearly I'm following it very closely.

Sara:5:24

Clearly.

Lilly:5:26

Anyway, so she has recently, on the stand earlier and at one point after they broke up, she sent him a Google document with the pros and cons of them dating. And then like a little survey at the bottom that basically amounted to, do you like me back? Check yes or no, His response was transferring the company she worked for to Hong Kong

Sara:5:51

I mean, I feel bad for her, but because I feel like it's mean to laugh at someone for trying to ascertain whether or not someone likes them back, but also she's an adult.

Lilly:6:04

Yeah, and I mean, willingly committed a lot of fraud.

Sara:6:08

And also also that, yes,

Lilly:6:10

so like part of me is like this is a distraction. I mean, I wanted the soap opera of their bullshit romantic entanglements, but, That should not be part of the no. no. They both did a lot of fraud and the fact that they were in a shitty relationship does not lessen either of their participation in it.

Sara:6:31

Yes,

Lilly:6:33

anyway, it's a lot of fun to read about though,

Sara:6:35

it sounds it. that sounds like, uh, quite some entertaining drama.

Lilly:6:40

Very much so. It's a active ongoing court case. So there's like drawings of the courtroom, like then there's a couple of people who who are going to the. Hearings and then tweeting about it during the breaks. It's just kind of fascinating, I've never followed a court case live so the way information is disseminated is very

Sara:6:59

Yeah, I did that for the, what was it? The Penguin Random House, Simon Schuster merger, court case. were some journalists who were tweeting about it, like it was happening, or during the breaks. yeah, it was fascinating to see it unfold and see what kind of information we got via these like Twitter threads.

Lilly:7:21

Anyway, fascinating stuff. no, I have not read anything anything podcast books.

Sara:7:28

But you have read The Last Hero for the first time.

Lilly:7:32

Yes, indeed. So this is Wild. I mean, it's not a disc world novel, right? Because it's an illustrated, it's not a comic

Sara:7:40

It's not a comic book. it's this odd kind of in-between large format illustrated novel. it's only about 172 pages. There are a lot of Full page illustrations. a lot of drawings, but

Lilly:7:55

it's a novella. 40,000 words.

Sara:7:58

okay, so, so it is, in terms of content, content, it's a novella, it's not, it's presented in traditional novella format where it's just text.

Lilly:8:09

I know, but you say it's 176 pages and it's like, oh, that's a decent length, but half of them are pictures,

Sara:8:16

Yeah.

Lilly:8:16

and the other half is size 24

Sara:8:18

Yeah. The, the font is quite large. but doesn't really follow the of any of the other disc world stories because it is this illustrated novella.

Lilly:8:28

So my first reaction to picking this up was that because it is such a different format, did it feel like a good introduction for new people? I mean, the illustrations could totally help introduce someone to Disc World, or is this just like a fun additional piece for established fans?

Sara:8:46

I think it works better for established fans personally. Yes, the format and the illustrations, are a nice, like bonus for new readers, but I think it relies so heavily on readers having a relationship with these characters already and knowing who they are. that I don't think that new readers would

Lilly:9:08

I don't think they'd enjoy it very much. I'll say it, It's called a fable. And when you think of like how a fable Normally works in a storytelling arena. I don't know what any of those word choices were. We'll just keep going. it generally relies on a lot of archetypes, right? Because you're not getting into character background. I don't care who the woodcutter is, I just know there's a woodcutter, and I know he's exactly like every other woodcutter that's shown up in every other fable,

Sara:9:36

Yeah.

Lilly:9:36

But in this case, Instead of archetype characters, we're just getting characters that we already know because we've read 50,000 disc world novels already.

Sara:9:46

Yeah. So it, does rely on having that background knowledge of the characters.

Lilly:9:50

yeah, it does not introduce you to anybody really. It's just like rid cully. You know who that is?

Sara:9:58

Yep.

Lilly:9:59

It did at some points feel like a best of cameo collection

Sara:10:04

I could see that.

Lilly:10:06

in a fun way. Like I enjoyed it. Sam Vs isn't actually on the page, but Carrot makes a reference to, you know, my captain or something. And you're like, I know exactly who you're talking about and the quote quoting of vibes sounds exactly like him. It's hilarious and it works and it makes me feel like an insider because I got that

Sara:10:25

Mm-hmm.

Lilly:10:26

but because of that, yeah, this is definitely like bonus material for Disc world, not

Sara:10:32

not introductory material. Yeah.

Lilly:10:34

not

Sara:10:35

Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. I don't know when I first read it. it certainly was not my first, I'm pretty sure I had read all of the novels before I ever read. the Last Hero,

Lilly:10:45

What are the different miniseries that get up in this? Is that, I don't think that's a spoiler, is it?

Sara:10:51

you mean what characters appear in this?

Lilly:10:56

yeah. I think the only ones left out are the witches.

Sara:10:59

Yeah, I mean it's, basically the city watch because we have carrot, we have veterinary, don't have vs. But we do have mention of him. wizards, rinse, wind, and the, unseen university academic staff, if they can be called an academic staff. and there's Cohen, the Barbarian and the Silver Hoard.

Lilly:11:21

they're sort of from the rinse wind books though. I mean, they get mentioned in other ones, but they're most on the page with rinse wind, I think.

Sara:11:28

Yeah, I mean, Cohen up in the very first novel, which is a rinse wind book. and then actually meet the Silver Hoard in interesting times, which is again, a rinse wind book. and then there's like, there's the gods and a couple of other characters

Lilly:11:44

There are some direct references to ALM and the Temple of Small Gods, know that's not like, a huge element, but that's definitely a reference to the novel Small Gods

Sara:11:55

Yes, it

Lilly:11:57

and how, how M was like almost forgotten and then made a comeback. Like that's that book

Sara:12:02

Yeah. That, that is a direct reference to that book. so yeah, it, it does rely on, as we've said already, all of the background knowledge that you have had reading Discord books up until now.

Lilly:12:14

but also celebrate it. I think that was more what I was getting at. Like, yeah, it's a series of cameos, but it doesn't just feel like fan service.

Sara:12:22

it has its own story and, it's not just a series of cameos. It's a series of cameos that have a cohesive

Lilly:12:30

And they get brought up because they're relevant to the plot for the most part. Death was a little, eh

Sara:12:36

But death is always like that.

Lilly:12:37

Yeah, that's true.

Sara:12:38

So

Lilly:12:39

fine.

Sara:12:39

that's fine.

Lilly:12:41

there was one new character though, that we haven't met before. I mean, there were a couple of new characters, but there was a new barbarian who'd never been brought up. Vina, the Raven Herd.

Sara:12:53

I wanna Google this because I think you're right that she's never been brought up.

Lilly:12:56

I feel like I would've remembered her because I loved her so much. and she actually had like an introduction scene. I am going to slip up and call her Zena on accident at least once.

Sara:13:07

Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe this is the first time she appears. I was just wondering if she hadn't been referenced, like obviously we haven't met her before. You're a hundred percent right about that, but we get a lot of references to other heroes in the Color of Magic I was wondering if maybe like she had been referenced, but uh, doesn't seem to think so. she definitely is a parody of Xena. she's a retired hero, or I guess unretired'cause she's come outta retirement, after her husband has away she's this, uh, gray-haired woman with knitting needles who kicks ass.

Lilly:13:45

She's

Sara:13:45

Yeah, she was great

Lilly:13:47

It was also interesting, so. A lot of this, I mean, the last hero, a lot of this book has to do with Cohen struggling with like what next kind of that question, right? he made it, he became emperor. Now what? so a lot of discussion of like the different paths barbarians have taken or heroes. They use the term barbarian and hero kind of interchangeably

Sara:14:10

I think often it's barbarian hero.

Lilly:14:13

Yes. There you go. There are a lot of different paths heroes can take when they're done. Heroing. I mean, obviously the main one is die in glorious battle. one hero that they make relentless fun of because he died peacefully in his sleep.

Sara:14:26

I don't think they make fun of him though. I think, I think they're. Hm. Yeah, they pity him because that's not how a hero should go out.

Lilly:14:35

I don't know. I was gonna then throw Vina in as the alternative, which is she's like retired. And when all the other barbarians are like, ma, we don't care if we die, charge in recklessly. She's like, yo, I have grandkids I would like to survive actually.

Sara:14:53

But I don't know. I think the difference between, Vina and I forget which one of the silver hoard it was who passed away in his sleep. Is that Nina? Yes. She retired. Yes. She is a little more sensible about, her life on the line, but she is. Still heroing, right? Like she went back out to the, hero industry. and she still has the opportunity to die gloriously in battle. Unlike Vincent, has this very sad death in his sleep, which is, according to, Cohen, quite un heroic.

Lilly:15:28

I don't know. It doesn't feel like that's her intention though.

Sara:15:30

I don't think so. I mean, I agree with you, but I think from Cohen's perspective where like a glorious death is kind of the, I think he can respect that she has come back to heroing in a way that a death, in one's sleep just makes him sad.

Lilly:15:47

I don't know. it to me is implied that she plans on dying peacefully in her sleep someday

Sara:15:53

Maybe.

Lilly:15:54

if she's not trying to die in battle. Isn't that the alternative?

Sara:15:56

Yeah. But

Lilly:15:57

And she's just okay with that. She doesn't see that as the end of the

Sara:16:00

again, I think that's her perspective and not Cohen's.

Lilly:16:04

right? And so she's an example of the perspective of I can do heroing also die peacefully in my sleep, and that doesn't cancel out the heroing.

Sara:16:12

yes. Whereas Cohen just thinks that it's sad.

Lilly:16:16

We get a lot of conversations around heroing in general. We also meet a villain, a dark Lord, if you will,

Sara:16:22

Evil. Hairy.

Lilly:16:24

evil. Harry was fantastic.

Sara:16:26

I liked Evil Harry.

Lilly:16:28

This story kind of touches on the idea of heroing and villain as an enterprise. There's a lot of talk about like the code of heroes and villains as small business owners,

Sara:16:41

Yeah, I think, um, Harry has a comment about how he was bringing, jobs to areas of traditionally high unemployment. and there's, there's also a conversation around, what makes a hero not in the sense of deeds, but like is the line between heroic deeds and villainist deeds? veterinary at one point points out, you know, who is determining that? so often It's the same thing, just from a different perspective. Like they're doing, the same thing.

Lilly:17:11

Well, and it's that idea that one can't exist without the other. Right. there's a lot of talk about how the hero always lets the dark Lord escape he has to live another day for the hero to fight him again,

Sara:17:24

Yes.

Lilly:17:25

that whole sort of, these are the last heroes as the title of the book implies, what does that mean for the villains then?

Sara:17:32

Yeah,

Lilly:17:33

are they villain against?

Sara:17:34

but also they're not just the last heroes because they're old, but talk a lot about how the new heroes don't follow the same Code. and so specific brand of, heroism has become kind of obsolete, as modernity progresses on the disc.

Lilly:17:54

It is a conversation around, progression into the end of an era in a way. Well, I would really love to talk about the art. I should probably know who Paul Kid be is right. That name is tickling my brain.

Sara:18:07

you should, because he is talked about a bit in, life with footnotes. Kby is the official disc world artist who took over after Josh Kirby passed away.

Lilly:18:20

I am sorry, what?

Sara:18:21

They have, they have such similar names. It's true.

Lilly:18:27

is it Just the same guy, but he put on a mustache and now he's a different person. he's trying to cover up the fact that he's immortal. So he was like, oh yeah, no, uh, that other guy died. I'm kid be now. I am doing the exact same job. Don't ask questions,

Sara:18:43

You know, that wouldn't surprise me. but yeah, Paul, kid be, does all of the official arts. So he does the calendars and he did the illustrations for the last hero. he's done book covers and et cetera, et cetera.

Lilly:18:59

All right. More on him in a minute. We kind of already talked about this. Who should read this book? If you like Disc World you don't even have to like a particular miniseries. It's all in here.

Sara:19:11

Most of it is in there anyway.

Lilly:19:13

Yeah, that's true.

Sara:19:14

If if you're only in disc world for the witches, maybe you shouldn't read this'cause they don't appear. but if you like Disc world in general.

Lilly:19:21

Mm-hmm.

19:24

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers

Lilly:19:34

Alright, so we're going to have a little

Sara:19:37

Hmm.

Lilly:19:37

mini section here at the top of the spoiler section to talk about some of our favorite art in this book. The first one that I would like to bring up is on page 23. And it is a beautiful spread of the disc, but sort of like an undead version. The turtle and the elephants are both skeletons and it's, right after we find out that Cohen and the silver hoard successfully kill all of the gods, which it's revealed pretty early, that's what they're trying to do. At first they say we're gonna return fire to them.'cause the first hero stole it. by which they mean it's a bunch of explosives.

Sara:20:16

It is. It is a fun pun. Yeah, it's a fun pun on return Fire

Lilly:20:21

But if they do that, all of the magic will seep out of disc world and the big hole they blow in it. And then, you know, you can't have a giant turtle swimming through space without magic So we get this huge spread. It's dope as hell. I would wear that on a t-shirt. I need a Skelly turtle. It's great.

Sara:20:39

I wonder if there's any official,'cause there's tons of official merchandise. I Wonder if there's any official merchandise with that on it.

Lilly:20:46

My next favorite, and when I stumbled across it, my note was this might be the best image in the whole book. I was proven wrong, but at the time it was, and it is of course death and the death of rats playing with a kitten.

Sara:21:00

It is pretty cute.

Lilly:21:01

I absolutely felt like it was pandering to me, but it worked, so I was okay with it.

Sara:21:06

eh, I wouldn't say it's entirely pandering because it's definitely canon by this point that death has a thing for cats. So it makes sense that he is well, kind of makes sense that he is, trying to figure out, Schrodinger's cat

Lilly:21:23

he stops the experiment because he is like, but I don't want the cat to die, so he just takes the the baby kitten out of the box. That was great. I don't think the death of rats is actually in that scene.

Sara:21:34

Um, I

Lilly:21:35

I don't think the death of rats is actually in the

Sara:21:37

I don't, I don't remember to be perfectly honest, but I'm okay with just imagining that, that, that he

Lilly:21:44

out,

Sara:21:44

hanging out. Yeah.

Lilly:21:45

being tormented by a kitten.

Sara:21:47

Yeah, because it's true that I think it's just Albert. Who is there and not the death of raps.

Lilly:21:53

To me that was like, this is a great image, but it doesn't actually, anyway, what made it feel like pandering,

Sara:21:59

Fair

Lilly:21:59

it was also great, so

Sara:22:01

enough.

Lilly:22:02

I accept it.

Sara:22:03

I have two images that I really liked. One is on page one 30 and 1 31. And it's, A picture of, rinse, wind, carrot, Leonard and the librarian on the moon, and they're seeing, one of the turtles come up in front of them with the disc on its back. and just seeing how large the turtle is in comparison to the people is very striking. so I really liked that. And then there's also a Sistine Chapel re-imagining on page 1 54 where Cohen is giving the finger to blind eo, and that's just fun.

Lilly:22:45

Yeah, I did really enjoy that one as well. especially since, oh no, he's not. Leonardo da Vinci

Sara:22:52

of Quorum.

Lilly:22:53

of rum. Thank you. I mean, he is. Not like Leonardo da Vinci

Sara:22:58

yes.

Lilly:22:59

although wasn't the Sistine Chapel Michelangelo, yes. Years of art history have come, come to my aid,

Sara:23:07

I mean, Leonard, if Leonard, if Quorum is basically all of the Renaissance painters put together,

Lilly:23:12

Yes, yes. I'm fine with that. Getting all SS mushy. I just didn't want listeners to think, I thought Leonardo da Vinci painted the Sistine Chapel Anyway, Leonard of quorum is to paint the entire chapel in 10 days as punishment for creating a flying machine.

Sara:23:29

no.

Lilly:23:29

gods are like you,

Sara:23:30

his punishment is to do it in a year and he does it in 10 days. And the Gods are really upset by that.

Lilly:23:37

I thought at one point they were like, it would be impossible to do this, so we're only gonna give you half the

Sara:23:42

Yeah. Because they were originally going to give

Lilly:23:43

Oh, it was 10 years. That's right. That's right. then so they cut it down to one and then he did it in 10

Sara:23:49

Yeah.

Lilly:23:49

everyone was mad. That's right. But it's also extra delightful that He then painted Cohen giving all of the gods the finger, I mean, blind io specifically, but they're all up there.

Sara:23:59

Yes.

Lilly:24:00

Although really best image in the whole book the hardcore Bard

Sara:24:04

He has a pretty hardcore bard. It's true.

Lilly:24:07

By then.

Sara:24:08

then,

Lilly:24:08

At the beginning, Cohen, the Barbarian and his silver hoard kidnap a bard who only sings love songs. And they're like, you're gonna have to write a saga about how great we are. So so everyone remembers us at first the Bard is like, oh God, oh God, put me back. But by the end he's like totally bought into it. like he's excited for adventure. He writes an amazing song about the heroes. but about halfway through the book, his loot gets destroyed so we kind of see him like trying to find strings and things as the story goes on. And in this last image, it's him performing the amazing saga and he's playing it on like a homemade harp that uses the skull of someone as the base. And it's just fantastic.

Sara:24:54

One of the things I really enjoyed about the Bards. Arc character arc in this story is the way it kind of mirrors, teaches arc in, interesting times. I don't know if you remember teach, but he was, don't remember if they kidnapped him or if he just kind of got swept away by them, he was a former teacher who is trying to teach them how to be civilized, teach becomes a little more, adventurous and he dies at the end of interesting times. Mm-hmm. And his character arc is kind of mirrored by the Bards, except the bard doesn't die.

Lilly:25:30

It kind of implies that he I don't know, it was gonna do something amazing.

Sara:25:33

Mm-hmm.

Lilly:25:34

It is cool. I I liked his arc quite a bit

Sara:25:36

yeah.

Lilly:25:37

he was like, I can't go back to just doing love stories. he isn't even sure he wants to go back to being a bard. I mean, still doing baring, but more adventurous baring.

Sara:25:46

And he also, I think, really comes to appreciate, Cohen and the, the silver hoard in a way that he doesn't in the beginning of the book, like in the

Lilly:25:55

Oh yeah. Well, at first

Sara:25:56

Yeah.

Lilly:25:56

him.

Sara:25:57

They pay him

Lilly:25:59

That's true. That's true. Oh, and then he dumps the pave out in the snow. That was a beautiful moment.

Sara:26:04

it was This book is also really sad though, because I don't want Cohen and the Silver Ho to die or even not die. I mean, kind of an open ending the sense that they go off, but their bodies are, you know, gone.

Lilly:26:22

They're spirits,

Sara:26:23

Yeah.

Lilly:26:23

at least that's how I interpreted it. and they can run around adventuring throughout the cosmos as spirits, and that's fine.

Sara:26:29

But it's still sad.

Lilly:26:30

like, I respect it,

Sara:26:32

It's still sad.

Lilly:26:33

but they had to die somehow and they got to die the way they wanted to and keep adventuring. Isn't that like the best case scenario?

Sara:26:40

I don't want any character in disc world on the disc to die ever. know that's unrealistic, but

Lilly:26:48

I mean, it's a fantasy story, so I'm sure someone could figure it out. There is a book about no one dying and it's not good.

Sara:26:55

I don't want anyone to not die in that way. I just want them to continue to have adventures forever, you know?

Lilly:27:04

And they do.

Sara:27:05

Yeah. But they also, it was sad. I was sad. That's all.

Lilly:27:10

It was touching.

Sara:27:11

It was touching.

Lilly:27:12

I was, moved so I did kind of clock on pretty early that Cohen wasn't just returning fire to the gods out of the goodness of his heart.

Sara:27:22

Not that kind of fire anyway.

Lilly:27:26

and then like maybe about a third of the way in. We get the line that he's returning fire with interest and it's like, oh yeah, yeah. Yep.

Sara:27:35

yep.

Lilly:27:35

yep. Saw that coming

Sara:27:36

Yeah, but that's part of the whole, because this is a fable, and so it does like fables do it, it does telegraph. All of the story beats well in advance.

Lilly:27:46

it definitely did feel like. a myth. There were some kind of nitty gritty moments that you wouldn't necessarily get in a myth, like trying to learn how to fly the flying machine But overall, it definitely did follow a different story structure from a disc world novel.

Sara:28:04

Yeah.

Lilly:28:05

I didn't have as much of the PRT speaking directly to the reader philosophical moment at the end.

Sara:28:11

Not as much. No.

Lilly:28:13

I think that was probably just for length though.

Sara:28:15

yeah, I don't think that was because of, the format so much as it was the length

Lilly:28:20

I would consider those related at least.

Sara:28:23

Okay. I had, yeah, are related.

Lilly:28:25

I think that was great though. I like that it sort of weighed more on implications than just coming right out and saying it.

Sara:28:32

and you've,

Lilly:28:33

get some hints in character

Sara:28:35

you've commented before that you sometimes get tired with his, grand speeches. the end of the books,

Lilly:28:41

Yeah. I never, uh, disagree with them, but sometimes I think they could be a little more subtle, and I think this book is a good example of it being subtle and working very well. So you had something crazy that you said earlier. What was it? Mm, not crazy. I just disagreed with vehemently so this was a fable about, you know, returning fire to the gods, but also really Cohen is rebelling against mortality. I would say

Sara:29:12

Yeah, I don't disagree There.

Lilly:29:14

Earlier you used the phrase old age and I wanted to argue with you, but if you just agree with me now, then that's not

Sara:29:19

Well, I, I mean, I think, I think they go hand in hand. You're right. Cohen's not really, like, he's not complaining about being old. He's not complaining about his wrinkles and, fact that he wears dentures and that things are a little more difficult. but mortality comes hand in hand with being old. So that was what I was getting at. When I said that he is, rebelling against that, it's not the physical stuff, he's not ready to die. There's a lot more that he wants to do.

Lilly:29:47

Well, it starts with there's the same story in history. some great conqueror. Gets to the ocean and realizes there's no more land to conquer and weeps.

Sara:29:57

Yeah, the, bard tells that story to Cohen

Lilly:30:00

Yeah. The disc world version. But I think there's an earth version too.

Sara:30:03

wouldn't surprise me.

Lilly:30:05

and so it starts kind of the idea that Cohen is upset because he had goals, he attained them, and now what?

Sara:30:12

Mm-hmm.

Lilly:30:13

And so I think at the beginning it's sort of that he has no one left to conquer or accept the gods, but then it kind of morphs into, the entire infinite possibilities of the universe that there's no way that he can actually get to.

Sara:30:26

Yeah. it kind of morphs into he is actually angry at the gods because he does want to do more, but he just can't because he's gonna die soon because he's old

Lilly:30:37

Yeah. I know I, I kind of made a joke about it being a series of cameos earlier, and it is, but it's a very thoughtful book still.

Sara:30:45

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Lilly:30:47

Yeah. And I just wanted to specify that one of the other fantastic cameos, which I would say is a city watch miniseries are the farting dragons

Sara:30:58

This one Swamp Dragons. So, as we've mentioned, Leonard of Quorum devises a flying machine because, veterinary and the wizards are trying to stop Cohen and the silver hoard from, up the gods and thus destroying this world. But they need a way to get to, The place where the gods.

Lilly:31:18

Cory Celeste.

Sara:31:20

yeah, of course Celeste, they need, a way to get there quickly because normal methods would take ages. And so Leonard of Quorum devises a flying machine that is powered by, swamp Dragons.

Lilly:31:32

And there's dragons on the moon and they breathe fire the other direction, just like Errol Carrot brings up Errol,

Sara:31:39

That was a nice reference.

Lilly:31:40

I don't remember which book that was.

Sara:31:42

Guards. Guards, I think. cause I think guards. Guards is where they, the dragon.

Lilly:31:46

That makes sense.

Sara:31:46

that's where Errol comes in

Lilly:31:49

no. Sweet Little Dragons. pug. Dragons.

Sara:31:52

they're, they're basically pugs, but they're dragons.

Lilly:31:55

All right. Another reason why you absolutely have to have read Disc world novels is the character of Carrot is like perfectly consistent in this as he is in city watch books, he's not a main character. I'd say he's one of the ensemble cast, but he definitely doesn't get the most page time. and so you get so little of him. We only see like the surface doofus level for the most part.

Sara:32:20

I don't know if I agree with that. it's true that he is part of the ensemble cast. I think basically everyone except Cohen is ensemble cast. but he is part of the group, that goes in this flying machine to Stop, the silver hoard and we see him be very straightforward, but I don't think we see him being a doofus, he's, he's very serious about what he's doing. As in the books, he, kind of cuts through all social cues and, social like obfuscations, but I don't think that's him being a doofus.

Lilly:32:59

You are right. That was the wrong word, really. It's just he's very simple and straightforward

Sara:33:03

Yeah.

Lilly:33:04

and for the most part, especially like him versus Leonard of Worm, who are maybe complete opposites. in every way. and then you get to the end where he's facing off against the Silver Horde. And a silver Horde. Realize that seven against one makes them thugs and him the hero instead of them a bunch of heroes, because that's how Heroing

Sara:33:25

Mm-hmm. that's, that's what their code, uh, tells'em.

Lilly:33:30

And I think at one point, was it Cohen who says, I heard there was a member of the City watch who's secretly supposed to be king, but he doesn't tell anyone'cause he prefers being a City Watch member. And Kara's like never heard of him. Oh, that, that got me

Sara:33:49

unsurprisingly Carrot was not my favorite part of this book. He is fine.

Lilly:33:53

he wasn't my favorite part of this book because he's just so minor in it. But I think the book did a very good job of like us glimpses of him and we know what's going on in the larger picture because we've read the city watch books, but PRT didn't have to put all of that on the page. Because we're just bringing that to the story.

Sara:34:12

yes, I would agree with that.

Lilly:34:14

He is the archetype of Carrot in this book.

Sara:34:17

I mean, carrot's. already a bit of an archetype, so.

Lilly:34:21

There's one other moment. I think Vita makes the reference. To how come villains always stalk their dungeons with really useful items for heroes to defeat them?

Sara:34:32

She, I think she is,

Lilly:34:33

did say that?

Sara:34:34

no, it's, the bard. it comes out.Yeah, it comes out that, both Vina and the Silver Horde are, going this way because they both individually found maps giving all of the information as how to get to, Celeste. And the Bard points out like, isn't it awfully convenient that there is a map showing how to get to this place that no one has ever come back from? He's got a point

Lilly:35:01

He does have a point. It's expanded. Hold on. I'm gonna find that. quote. Because it's also expanded to dungeons being very well stocked, and that was what I wanted to joke about. Not all of the pages had page numbers, and it drove me bonkers.

Sara:35:16

well, the full spread pictures didn't have page numbers on them. Oh yeah, it's true. That doesn't have a page number either. if the picture covered where the page number would go, there was no page number.

Lilly:35:27

No.'cause it's in the middle. They totally could've put it there. Look,

Sara:35:30

Well, I can't actually see the page number on either side.

Lilly:35:34

it's on this, it's on

Sara:35:35

Yeah. Okay, you're right, that has, pictures on both, pages I was expecting the page number, one of the pages has the page number in the middle the bottom of the page, and the other just does not have a page number.

Lilly:35:49

They usually are in the middle. It's fine. This is not, I get that it's an art book, so it's not gonna have page numbers everywhere, but it made this very difficult. funny really? All my life, I've gone adventuring with old maps found in old tombs and so on, and I never ever worried about where they came from. It's one of those things you never think about, like who leaves all the weapons and keys and medicine kits lying around in the unexplored dungeons that there's a video game reference.

Sara:36:16

Yep. You can tell. PRT played a lot of video games.

Lilly:36:19

That was a lot of effort for that one comment, but I'm glad we did it.

Sara:36:23

worth it.

Lilly:36:24

let's just pretend my long segment about page numbers was in the pet peeve corner.

Sara:36:31

We can do that. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:36:41

Come disagree with us. We are on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara:36:52

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:37:00

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find our show notes and a lot of other nonsense. Bye!

Sara:37:07

for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!