Project Hanuman by Stewart Hotston

Episode 214

Release Date: Nov 12, 2025

Your hosts read Project Hanuman by Stewart Hotston. They discuss platonic relationship progressions, the variety of alien societies, and sentient ships. 

Oh, and how they are woefully underqualified to discuss Indian mythology.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.

Lilly: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara: 0:09

I'm Sarah, and today we will be discussing Project Mann by Stuart Hotten.

Lilly: 0:16

But first we have our quick five minute introduction, starting with something great that happened recently.

Sara: 0:22

I am still getting tomatoes off of my tomato plants and quite a lot of them. Yes it is November. So on the one hand, I guess it's not great that we're still getting hot weather but I do like still having tomatoes.

Lilly: 0:36

The tomato lining, if you will.

Sara: 0:38

Yes,

Lilly: 0:40

I am mad jealous. We, we've ended our tomatoes months ago.

Sara: 0:46

I have never had tomatoes. So happy. Like these tomatoes, I don't know what it is, but they're taking over the yard. If they're so happy.

Lilly: 0:56

Mine is also food related, coincidentally, but I tried a new recipe and it was so good. I'm gonna make a thousand more. I've already told you about it. The, the pumpkin flaw.

Sara: 1:09

Oh, yes.

Lilly: 1:10

I was a little intimidated. I'd never made flaw before, but it came out great and I love pumpkin, so it was like the perfect sort of fall indulgence.

Sara: 1:21

Win-win.

Lilly: 1:22

Yeah, what are you drinking tonight?

Sara: 1:25

I am drinking a masala, chai blend. I think actually I bought it from David's Tea a long time ago. I think they call it west Cape Chai. it's, you know, all of the typical stuff that you get in Chi.

Lilly: 1:39

Well, I have two different answers for this. Kind of what I am drinking is a cherry, lime bubbly water, but what you should drink with this book, I think is like a good stout. not a big beer drinker, but I think it's the right beverage for this book.

Sara: 1:56

Interesting. This doesn't feel like a beer book to me.

Lilly: 2:00

Okay. I'm thinking specifically of that one, that one scene where prob takes kercher out drinking and. He gets pretty drunk off of just a couple of drinks. And stouts can be more alco like. They're, they're certainly not a light beer. They're also can be very, very dark and they describe the, what they're drinking as like, I think black even.

Sara: 2:22

Yes, they do. Describe what they're drinking as black.

Lilly: 2:25

I don't know any beverages that would be quite that dramatic, but stouts are often like a. Hardier beer. So I think it would fit for that quite well. There is also the scene where she just drinks hard liquor until she passes out, but I don't think you should just chug hard liquor the whole time you read this book.

Sara: 2:47

No, and to be fair for that scene, I think I was envisioning hard liquor.

Lilly: 2:52

really.

Sara: 2:54

given how drunk they both get pretty quickly. Like probab can do stuff with her physiology to make her hangover go away. Kercher obviously can't but I, I did think that it was harder liquor than beer.

Lilly: 3:09

Oh, see, I thought she was faking it.

Sara: 3:13

She, she has a line about, whether or not she should let herself feel the hangovers that that evening was going to result in.

Lilly: 3:23

Right.

Sara: 3:24

so I didn't think she, like, it sounded like they were drinking serious stuff.

Lilly: 3:30

Maybe. Anyway. Neither here nor there. That's not actually what I'm drinking right now, so not actually that relevant. I have just been doing podcast reading lately, so no extracurriculars for me. How about you?

Sara: 3:43

I have been doing some sost reading.

Lilly: 3:46

Oh, that's good. I should do that.

Sara: 3:48

Yes, we both should do that. I have not done enough Sost reading, but I have done some sost reading.

Lilly: 3:55

that's good. Alright, so Project Hanman. I am so not qualified to discuss Indian mythology in any way.

Sara: 4:06

Yeah, I wish that I knew more about Hanman and was able to recognize more of the, like, mythological pieces that Hotten uses. The description of the book does say that it blends the story of Hanman. But it's not something that I could recognize, unfortunately,

Lilly: 4:27

Well, it's on the page a little bit because the, the mythology of Hannu Man exists in this book in the past for our main characters. So there are a few times when the character known as Hannu Man acknowledges, oh yeah. And then that thing happened for Hannu Man and the story. So, you know, I could follow along to that extent, but.

Sara: 4:49

Anything subtler than that was unfortunately lost on me. Which is like, you don't, you don't need to know that in order to enjoy this book. But I do feel that if you are more familiar, that probably like gives you a deeper enjoyment.

Lilly: 5:05

Well, I, I think it's a, comment in the book's favor that we were able to dive in and enjoy the story with absolutely zero context. So clearly, like for as much as there is. Mythology at the base of this story, it's not detrimental at all to the reading experience, to not have that background knowledge.

Sara: 5:27

Right. I just meant like if you do have that knowledge, I think it adds to the enjoyment rather than not having that knowledge subtracts.

Lilly: 5:36

Yeah,

Sara: 5:36

If, like, if that makes sense. Just like, you know, if you understand a reference, you can go, Hey, I know that thing

Lilly: 5:43

Right, but clearly this book is not resting on reference laurels.

Sara: 5:47

Right?

Lilly: 5:48

'cause there are some books that if you're not getting the references, you're not going to enjoy them.

Sara: 5:52

Yeah. And that was not this book. I actually think that this might be one of my favorite things I've read this year.

Lilly: 5:58

Really. I did enjoy it quite a bit.

Sara: 6:01

Yeah. I thought it was really, really good. And not just because ston mentions that he had a novella be a finalist in the subjective chaos kind of awards, which was one of the years that I was a judge.

Lilly: 6:18

I also quite liked it. It's very sci-fi. This book takes place. Mostly around a civilization that is, I'm gonna say part matrix or I guess the civilization is primarily matrix. And as the last reference I will make, however, the archeology is mostly a software civilization.

Sara: 6:41

Yes, they are like they live in a digital world essentially.

Lilly: 6:46

And our main character prob makes the distinction like other people think we have uploaded our brains into this computer, but that is not the case. Like I was created in the computer and then downloaded myself into a physical body. So it's a very interesting, like they're, they're native digital creatures. But then there is of course, people who prefer to exist in the physical world, and there's some really interesting conversations around that. But let's see. I should read the back of the book, see how much I can say right now. Okay. Yes, there's a disaster and our main character and some of the other. People who are in the physical world get cut off from the ology. This like, I wanna say cloud-based society, which sounds like a hellscape, it's not supposed to be. That's just bringing some Silicon Valley baggage to an explanation that it doesn't need.

Sara: 7:43

I mean, to be fair, it's not bad for the people living in it except for those who wanna get out,

Lilly: 7:51

Yeah, our, so our main character has left not entirely. She's kind of like, she's still connected with the ology, but

Sara: 8:00

she still talks to her parents who live in the ology.

Lilly: 8:05

But her parents and their society make it very difficult to leave. So that's a, a source of early conflict and, and some ongoing conflict between characters. I'd say with, there's three main characters in this book. Would you?

Sara: 8:19

I would agree with that. We have Umra, there's Kercher who is, um, a pilot of the ship. And the ship is the third main character I would say.

Lilly: 8:31

And they're all from very different. Experiences in, in the ology. PAB has chosen to leave. Kercher has been forced to leave as punishment for a crime that we don't find out until, like halfway through the book, if not more. It's a mysterious crime he committed, got him kicked out and put into a physical body.

Sara: 8:51

they, they committed?

Lilly: 8:52

Oh, sorry. They, the ship does eventually go by. He though, and that's what messes me up.

Sara: 8:58

Yes.

Lilly: 8:59

And the ship is still fully integrated into the ology. The He god damnit. It's very hard that the person shaped entity uses they and the space Ship uses. He, it's just not my expectation.

Sara: 9:16

It's difficult, but I love it

Lilly: 9:18

Oh, it's very cool. The ship was probably my favorite character, not who I'd want to have a beer with. That's obviously prob.

Sara: 9:27

Obviously.

Lilly: 9:28

But just as far as you know, his arc and everything, just definitely the most interesting. But he's still fully integrated into the ology. He's considered a node, which is sort of higher up in their civilization. It's a little unclear what the hierarchy is.

Sara: 9:49

I mean, I get the impression that the nodes are basically like. Computer servers essentially

Lilly: 9:58

Yeah, they definitely have more brain power than the, I would say, individuals.

Sara: 10:04

yeah. And prob does make a point later on through the book that the ology is. Run by the nodes made for the nodes. Like there's kind of this two tier system the nodes have all of the power because they're the ones doing all of the, the processing and the people just kind of live in there.

Lilly: 10:30

It's supposed to be this utopia because they control their environment inside the ology. But as prob says, it's, that's still very limiting. Anyway, so we, we have these three main characters. They obviously don't get along right from the beginning. Probab and Kercher specifically have quite a bit of friction. But it lets us kind of explore all of the different angles of this kind of society from a really, I'm gonna say organic way, but that feels like a joke.

Sara: 10:59

do like the way the differing perspectives let us see all of the kind of aspects and nuances of the society. We're not just getting it from someone who hates it or someone who loves it. Um, it gives us a diverse perspective, I would say.

Lilly: 11:19

Absolutely, and it allows Hotten to put that conversation into the book in a way that doesn't feel forced.

Sara: 11:28

Yeah.

Lilly: 11:29

Similarly we get we meet another group called the Aans, and I'm not gonna talk about them too much because they don't show up until quite a ways through the book. But I would say that the. Contrast or lack thereof between theran who are definitely not helpful. Like they're not enemies, but they're not like, oh, you guys are in trouble. Let me help. So the, the differences between theran and the archeology I thought were fascinating and like neither of them are really good guys and the seeing them. Interact just kind of brings both of their assholery out in a way that was quite delightful.

Sara: 12:17

I think the interesting thing about this book for me is that. Really, none of the characters are good guys. Obviously our, those two civilizations have different levels of ass hattery and in different ways. But also just at an individual level. I don't think any of the characters are like, you cheer for them because they're the protagonists, but also they make some fucked up decisions sometimes.

Lilly: 12:46

I thought prob was pretty clean through the whole thing, for lack of better word.

Sara: 12:51

I think she is the most good guy of them all,

Lilly: 12:56

I mean, she does some normal asshole person stuff, but not like.

Sara: 13:01

I, she's, she's a flawed being but she is not a bad guy.

Lilly: 13:08

And even like a flawed characters have a range, right? Yeah. But her flaws are like kind of being a little self-centered when everything is normal, which is pretty normal as far as flaws go, you know? I mean, she really steps up when the disaster strikes. She is in a unique position because she's an interlocutor. That's her, her job is to kind of help people navigate the physical world as they've either left the ology or are just temporarily in physical space on a vacation or doing a research project or whatever. And so when. This disaster happens that I'm gonna continue to be very vague about. The ship has shown up and says like, we need the interlocutor to help navigate all this shit that's happening. And she is like, this is so beyond my pay grade, but okay. And even though she's not a fan of the ology, she still really steps up to the plate to help. I appreciated that, like it's a very, people are inherently good, even if they don't always have reasons where they need to be. Did that make any sense? When, when given the opportunity, she chooses to do good or at least as good as she can?

Sara: 14:29

yes. I mean, she, she does the best she can throughout this entire book, but I still don't necessarily think that she how to phrase what I wanna say. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think that all of the characters are fully good, but they're also not fully bad, like. PR is just, she is just a normal person doing her best. And sometimes you have main characters who are a little a little more perfect. So it was nice to see that nuance.

Lilly: 15:06

I guess I just, when I think of a, a flawed character or a character with flaws, I think of much more damning ones than in over her head.

Sara: 15:16

I mean, she, she is in over her head. She is, which is not a flaw. She is a little selfish. and self-centered and I don't know, like, no, she's not like a bad person.

Lilly: 15:28

Yeah, I mean, it's just all very like normal people. Foibles not, yeah, I'm trying my best, but also, I don't know, did a little genocide or something that would be a character flaw. Mm. I liked the commentary about eBooks, but it is so not related to anything. I don't think it's worth talking about.

Sara: 15:50

I don't even know what commentary you're thinking of.

Lilly: 15:53

At the very beginning when p was going on and on about how she's not like other girls. She reads physical books. That made me roll my eyes a little bit. It also goes into, like, the problem with the digital books is that they can be changed or taken down. It's like that's, it was a very frank conversation about like DRM in

Sara: 16:15

Mm

Lilly: 16:15

um, and publishers making changes that automatically update your copy.

Sara: 16:21

mm.

Lilly: 16:22

And so just like the importance of physical media and it's right, but also it has nothing to do with the rest of the book really.

Sara: 16:29

Yeah, I mean it does in the sense that much is lost for the ology because it's all digital.

Lilly: 16:36

That's true, but I mean, it's not like she was able to take all of her physical books when she fled either,

Sara: 16:41

No

Lilly: 16:41

so it's not like that was better in this case.

Sara: 16:45

Yeah, physicality didn't help her there.

Lilly: 16:48

When you have to flee destruction of a planet, you're gonna leave some stuff behind.

Sara: 16:52

Yep.

Lilly: 16:53

Well, I think it's time to get into the spoiler section. But before we go, who should read this book?

Sara: 16:59

You should read this book if you want a compelling space opera that's a standalone, that has some really interesting concepts and like world building universe building.

Lilly: 17:13

Really fun alien civilizations that are pretty different from each other.

Sara: 17:19

Yeah. Except when they're purposefully not.

Lilly: 17:22

Well.

Sara: 17:24

But yeah, it's the, the aliens are not just humans painted blue with some face makeup on which is always nice.

Lilly: 17:33

The uh, colony of Microbacteria was, I mean, that was the operations right?

Sara: 17:39

Yeah. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.

Lilly: 17:48

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara: 17:55

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine sotia.

Lilly: 18:02

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support,

Sara: 18:09

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly: 18:16

when prob and Kercher. First meet each other. They can't stand each other well, Kercher really is the most antagonistic one, but it's really obvious that, of course, that's not gonna stay the same because they're forced to work together. And I was really excited. I was like, ah, I can't wait to like see how they're relationship. I'm purely platonic in this sense. How their relationship develops over the course of this book and see them start to work together. And it kind of ended up feeling really uneven. Like it, it developed in fits and bursts in a way that really felt, I don't know, inauthentic, kind of. It was like they jumped to a new friendship milestone. And it was like, oh, okay, you're here now, I guess. Sure.

Sara: 19:07

I don't entirely disa uh, well,

Lilly: 19:11

You neither entirely agree or disagree.

Sara: 19:14

Yeah. I don't, I don't entirely disagree, but I also don't entirely agree. Because I do think that sometimes friendships just, or, or relationships just work like that where when you're thrown together and you go through these very traumatic experiences, suddenly that does bring you closer together in a very rapid way. And they go through a lot of really traumatic stuff that is sudden, They don't have the time to slowly develop the relationship.

Lilly: 19:48

I agree. I just feel like the scenes that we have where they are interacting, where their relationship moves forward, felt really awkward.

Sara: 19:58

I didn't necessarily feel like that, so that might be more of an individual thing.

Lilly: 20:04

Mm, I don't know it. Yeah, it did not work for me as well as I was maybe looking forward to it. On the flip side, P'S relationship with the ship, who eventually gets the name Hanman? So between her and Hanuman ended up being fantastic. Not in that they become friends, but they kind of have a falling out over the course of this book near the end. cause

Sara: 20:31

See, for me, I felt that was a little more sudden. I mean, I, I get it because Hanman eventually near the end is like, okay, prob, you did what you could. We're, you know, dropping you off and cutting you off and you're not important anymore. And. That felt kind of sudden to me, so I would've liked that to be expanded on just a little bit.

Lilly: 20:57

Oh, see, it was sudden. Yes, but it felt earned because at this point, Hanman has absorbed the archeology and is kind of a, a hybrid consciousness between all of this society's history and himself. And him kind of magically becoming an asshole because of that fit and made sense to me.

Sara: 21:22

See it. Yeah, that it felt like a really sudden change into being an asshole for me. I would've liked to see a couple more hints of that coming out sooner. But a again, I think this is probably a personal thing too.

Lilly: 21:35

Maybe well, I don't think prob having a problem with that felt. Unrealistic at

Sara: 21:40

No, no to, to be clear, I completely got prob side of things.

Lilly: 21:47

And then Hanuman's relationship with Kercher also changes not quite as dramatically because Prab and Hanuman are like, they're friends. They actually like say that they are friends.'cause Hanuman has a lot of trouble when he's absorbing the ology and. RA is kind of there for him in a way to like keep his consciousness existent. Whereas Kercher and Hannu man used to have a closer working relationship and then see ki kind of felt like they saw each other more as equals in the middle of the book. And then again, Hanman gets like a direct injection of pretentious asshole. And just starts treating his two friends like shit. And they're like, well, PAB is mad and Kercher is hurt.

Sara: 22:33

I mean, I think in the beginning, Kercher doesn't have the not only the emotional capacity, like the, the book straight out says that his body is not printed to have, to be able to feel some of those friendlier emotions he is. Specifically printed as a pilot and soldier. So I don't think that he knows how to be friends with the ship. I don't think that they know how to be friends with the ship originally. And then as they are exposed. More to other people and cultures because it's clear that they've been isolated with the ship for a long time. And as they get more, more exposure and prob interacts with them more I, I think they start to develop some of that like emotional depth.

Lilly: 23:30

Yeah, they're, they're not close with the ship when the ship is the ship,

Sara: 23:37

Yeah,

Lilly: 23:37

but they're very familiar with him. They know each other really well just because they've been working so closely together.

Sara: 23:45

they're, they're close coworkers, but they're not friends.

Lilly: 23:49

But then Hanman kind of becomes a stranger to them after this dramatic change that he goes through.

Sara: 23:58

Yeah.

Lilly: 23:59

And that is right after Kercher has, you know, grown his heart three times that day. Which just makes the betrayals thing more, not betrayal, but I mean personal betrayal, not like Hanuman is secretly a bad guy or something. Just secretly a jerk or becomes a jerk.

Sara: 24:17

And I mean a bad guy in the sense that, I kind of think all of the ology is a little bit bad.

Lilly: 24:25

They are. I loved so. We start the book with prob saying, yeah, I didn't wanna be part of the ology, and they made it a pain in the ass to leave. But I'm glad that they exist. They, as a society exist. And then as we learn more and then see it kind of personified in hanman they just kind of get worse and worse.

Sara: 24:50

They really do. And something that I love is that, so there the ology has had this catastrophic event happen to them. A new digital. Society, digital race has suddenly shown up and started attacking them and managed to like, do serious damage. And they understandably retaliate, but then they keep fighting back even when this new, race is trying to contact them and trying to like negotiate a ceasefire essentially. And I thought it was really interesting that they end up teaming up with the opera end and prob realizes at the very end of the book that they actually teamed up with the wrong like ally because the opera is also not great and they probably should have gone with the. New organization, but it's too late for that.

Lilly: 25:51

Yeah, I feel like she knows before she chooses to she basically allows the opera Opera to. Use her as a symbiotic like parasitic host.

Sara: 26:05

Yeah. And yes, she absolutely knows because there's a moment in the near the end of the book where she's trying to tell Hanman, like, no you know, this the, the face of loss, was that what it was called?

Lilly: 26:20

That's kind of the avatar of the species that has shown up and absolutely obliterated the archeology.

Sara: 26:27

She is like, no. The face of loss was trying to communicate like they were trying to, to talk to us, and by the time she accepts the opera. Like into herself. It's too late because Hanman is a jerk and won't listen to her. And they've just like, they just keep fighting the the face of loss. And so, yes, I think she knows sooner, but it's still too late to do anything about it.

Lilly: 26:56

It is, I just think it is so much more meaningful that she makes that decision with that knowledge.

Sara: 27:02

Yes.

Lilly: 27:03

The order of operations of that like lasting, oh, so much happens in the last like 20 pages of this book.

Sara: 27:10

There's a lot that happens near the end of the novel

Lilly: 27:13

So the opera operas show backup and say, Hey, we have the secret for how to protect yourself from the face of loss and Hanuman slash the ology. Just say, that's not possible. We are better than you. Almost with those exact words,

Sara: 27:30

almost.

Lilly: 27:31

because they're the most pretentious douche bags, and I hate it, but I kind of love it. Then prob is in information space and the face of loss is trying to talk to her and communicate. And she tells Hannu, man, hey like you said earlier, there's something going on here. We don't have to fight. Hannu man says, no, we're going to fight. Gets his butt absolutely kicked again because why did he think it was gonna be different this time? And then that's when prob says, okay, opera. you can infect me to save the ology even though I know that this is a mistake. And then it's, it's sad.

Sara: 28:15

Oh yeah. It's a, it's a really sad, I'm, I mean, the ending of the, of the book is happy in the sense that like, yeah, they, they do beat the face of loss. But it's sad because PAB gives up so much

Lilly: 28:32

That she didn't have to, but Hanman was an asshole.

Sara: 28:35

Yeah. Like the archeology still is much reduced. All of her family has gone. They've cited with the wrong people and she knows that, but she, you know, She still had to make that decision because that was the only way that she could save what was left of the ology to save.

Lilly: 28:55

We find out that the face of loss is an offshoot of Theand, which is why Theand know the secret of how to defeat them or how to defend against them. And they're just using the archeology to basically like kick their offspring while it's down. Or finally get one up over on them and it's like, oh, the upper end sucks so hard.

Sara: 29:19

Oh, they suck so hard. They're terrible, but like, yeah, in that kind of delightful way.

Lilly: 29:25

Yeah, I, they're good villains because they're very much like, it's almost like a devil's bargain kind of thing, right? Like you have to work with them in order to survive, except you don't because Hanuman's an idiot. Or. Not an idiot. He's a, you know, hyper smart supercomputer. But that's the problem. He thinks no one else could possibly offer anything. And so he dismisses the opera and prob and gets himself into that situation. The, the hubris of that just, just like really well done. I.

Sara: 29:58

Yeah. It, it really is After a certain point they really do. They being the archeology as a whole and Mann in particular really do bring it on themselves.

Lilly: 30:13

Yeah, their pride and not just pride in like a, I can't ask for help, but pride in a sense that there's no way you could possibly give me help because you are so insignificant compared to me. And so seeing them. Not come down because they do technically win.

Sara: 30:33

Yeah, they, they do win. They don't like, Mann doesn't get a comeuppance.

Lilly: 30:41

Except we as readers and prob, and I think Kercher at the end is kind of like, oh shit.

Sara: 30:47

Yeah.

Lilly: 30:48

We know that they have made a mistake and the opera are surely not on the up and up, and it will come back and bite them in the ass. So it's kind of a promise of a comeuppance.

Sara: 31:00

Yes. I think by the end of the book, you know there will be a comeuppance. You just don't get to see it on the page.

Lilly: 31:07

And I feel really bad for prob and kercher and like the citizens of the ology, but oh man, did the ology do that? To themselves.

Sara: 31:16

They, yep. Yep, they did. But, and I think that ultimately that's why PAB makes the decision she does, because she doesn't want the innocent people to be caught in the crossfire. And if she doesn't. Make this deal with the opera and the opera are just gonna let the ology have this, you know, shootout with the face of loss and lose. And prob can't. She doesn't, she doesn't want, I She has

Lilly: 31:49

Du man deserves it. All of the people like uploaded into his. computer brain do not deserve it.

Sara: 31:56

Yeah, like she's got complicated feelings about the ology, but she definitely doesn't want to see any more death of the people who live within it.

Lilly: 32:05

Yeah.

Sara: 32:06

she's seen an awful lot already. Poor

Lilly: 32:08

In the like five days this book takes place in. Yeah. Very complicated. Just with the. The politics at the end there, I, it comes together really, really nicely.

Sara: 32:22

Yeah. It, it does all come together really nicely. And it feels like everything has been woven in, like the, the op'cause you meet the op brand early, fairly early on in the, in the book, and you think, oh, you know. Other culture, alien culture they're just kind of at a stopover. You don't necessarily think that they're gonna come back and be important. But they do and they are very important.

Lilly: 32:47

I also, I really liked this book

Sara: 32:50

Yeah, it was excellent. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly: 32:59

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara: 33:11

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly: 33:18

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara: 33:25

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!