Nostalgia Book Club: Which Witch? by Eva Ibbotson
- Fiction Fans
- Oct 4, 2023
- 52 min read
Updated: Feb 11, 2024
Episode 110
Release Date: October 4, 2023
Your hosts are once again joined by Hannah and Laura from On Wednesdays We Read Podcast for another episode of Nostalgia Book Club. They discuss “Which Witch?" a kids’ book that’s half love story, half witchcraft exhibition, and half earthworms (yes, this was a Lilly choice). They talk about the value of dark themes in children's lit, the unremarkable love interest, and framing dated stories for young readers. There’s also a Words are Weird segment about the same words getting used for VERY different purposes in American vs British English.
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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Darkest Child by Kevin MacLeod
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.
Lilly:0:06
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.
Sara:0:11
And I'm Sarah, and I am so thrilled that we are welcoming back Hannah and Laura from On Wednesdays We Read for another episode of our Nostalgia Book Club joint thing.
Hannah:0:24
Our mini series, if you will
Lilly:0:26
yes.
Hannah:0:27
Thank you for having us on. We enjoy being back. And we enjoyed this book. So
Laura:0:31
how dare you for picking a book that played with my emotions like this.
Lilly:0:35
I'm so excited. I thought I was going to get ripped apart for all of the weird gender stuff. But I guess we can talk about that in a little bit.
Hannah:0:43
We give this book a pass for being written in 1979. Like I read it. I was
Laura:0:47
Mm hmm. Yeah, very much like Roald Dahl vibes
Hannah:0:51
yes,
Laura:0:51
I was getting, like, yeah.
Lilly:0:53
Well, soon we'll be discussing Which Witch by Eva Ibbotson. But first, what's something great that happened recently for everybody?
Sara:1:01
I went to go see Hadestown with our aunt, and we got brunch beforehand, and it was really nice.
Hannah:1:08
I adored Hadestown when I saw it
Laura:1:10
I love that soundtrack.
Sara:1:12
It was really good. I had not heard the soundtrack before, so I was kind of going in blind. And I thought it was going to be more about Hades and Persephone than Orpheus and Eurydice, but it was great. Yeah, it was fantastic.
Hannah:1:27
And the version I went to, like, my touring company, the Hades had, the best voice I'd ever heard, like, better than the soundtrack, because it was so low, I did not know how he was getting that deep but then Orpheus, like, Orpheus is more like a tenor role, and my Orpheus had some struggles, so,
Laura:1:42
Oh no.
Sara:1:43
I thought that my Orpheus had some struggles too,
Hannah:1:45
okay,
Sara:1:46
But the Hades was very deep, yes.
Hannah:1:48
So maybe we have the same touring company,
Sara:1:50
It's possible.
Hannah:1:52
it's possible. But that was fun. Well my good thing I'm engaged and there's lots of struggles with it, but we signed a venue this weekend, which was my goal of the week. My fiancéis a hemmer and hawer. And so he kept being like, Well, we could like go back to the drawing board. And I was like, No, we are finding one this week. And we are signing the contract. I do not care. And so we actually did it. So he was like, We made your goal. And I was like, Yes, we did. Thank you. I like when I can stick to a goal.
Sara:2:16
That's very exciting.
Laura:2:18
So my good thing is definitely weirder than everyone else's. Earlier this year, my husband and I got a lot more chickens and we did not have a home for them. So we finally finished our new chicken house and got it all painted and everything and it looks really good. So I'm excited about that.
Lilly:2:34
Aww yay,
Sara:2:35
I don't, I don't think that's weird.
Lilly:2:37
No.
Laura:2:37
good.
Hannah:2:38
Laura, did you recreate the chicken house from the Hannah Montana movie?
Laura:2:43
Now, Now,
Hannah:2:44
If you guys want a good laugh, look up the Hannah Montana chicken house. She adores it at the end of the movie and it is bad. So
Sara:2:51
Does your chicken house look like anything special or is it just a regular chicken house?
Lilly:2:56
a house for chickens.
Laura:2:58
You know, we actually like, got this old shed that had like, rotted sides and everything, and so we put new sides on and we got some older steel for the roof and we repainted all of it and actually, like, my parents have been doing a house remodeling project and everything and they've got all new siding on their house and they got a new back door so actually their old back door is the door on this chicken house They have kind of a fancy door with like a little window that's all like diamonds and
Hannah:3:29
Oh,
Laura:3:29
everything on the inside so it's It looks kind of fancy for chickens, but yeah, my husband's uncle was like, oh yeah, that's like the Hilton hen house. I've never seen anything that nice for chickens. So, but it turned out really nice. We painted it red and then the roof is green. So, I kind of like it.
Hannah:3:45
Laura, I also have a question. How does your rooster feel about it? Because I
Laura:3:49
We currently do not have a rooster.
Hannah:3:51
Oh, okay. I remember you having a rooster last time I visited you. So my
Laura:3:55
that, no.
Hannah:3:57
No.
Laura:3:57
ended not long after we had Emily Edwards on, actually.
Hannah:4:01
Oh, okay. My bad.
Laura:4:02
Was actually a very mean rooster. I'm,
Hannah:4:04
yeah, it was a mean rooster.
Laura:4:05
that it's gone.
Hannah:4:07
All right. Sorry guys. Not to make this rooster talk.
Lilly:4:10
My good thing is actually the silliest, so I'll take that crown away from you, Laura, yeah. Daniel and I started our second run through of Baldur's Gate 3. We finished the first one and started our next one the same, like, there was no break. We did not stand up from the computer, so we were like, alright, next game, let's go.
Laura:4:28
shake off and then sit back down and get right at it.
Hannah:4:32
we don't need water. We don't need food. Just keep going.
Lilly:4:35
Yeah.
Sara:4:36
Are you doing anything differently in this second run through?
Lilly:4:39
Yes, so in our first run through, I don't know how familiar y'all slash our listeners are, but in Baldur's Gate 3 it starts with your characters being infected by mind flayers, and you have the option throughout the game to use the powers from the infection or to not. And in our first run through, we didn't use them at all. We were like, no. No mind flayer corruption. And in this one, we're doing all mind flayer. Any opportunity to use Mind Flayer powers, we're like, yes, do it.
Hannah:5:09
fun.
Lilly:5:10
I'm very excited. It's probably what I'm going to do after this.
Laura:5:13
I've seen so many people talking about that game, and as people may know, Hannah and I do not play video games, so we're like kind of outside of that realm, don't really have a clue, but I've seen so many people talking about that game and it looks really cool actually from some of the screenshots that people have shared.
Lilly:5:29
It's incredible. We've been following the production team, that's not what the word is, the studio for like their last two games, like we kickstarted their game before this, when we found out they're the ones who got the rights to make Baldur's Gate 3, we like threw a party, we were so excited.
Laura:5:46
That's amazing.
Lilly:5:47
yeah, great studio, plus like fun story, they did such a good job,
Hannah:5:51
Oh, good.
Lilly:5:53
I could talk about this for a very long time, but I won't. What's everyone drinking today?
Sara:5:58
I'm drinking a Bloody Mary, mostly because I have Bloody Mary Mix that I'm trying to use up, but also, the name of the drink felt appropriate with this book.
Laura:6:07
Fair.
Hannah:6:08
I drink only non alcoholic things now. But because of that, I have made a couple new friends and one time I went out and I liked the non alcoholic Guinness and so they bought me a bunch of dark beers, like, cause people find out you like one thing and they're like, Oh, I know she likes that. I rarely drink dark beer, but they got me this brand called Busty Lush. And it's an oatmeal dark. And I think it's, yeah. Very ironic that it's called Busty Lush because there is like 0. 5 percent alcohol in here, so there is nothing lush about this oatmeal dark. So, but it's pretty good. I like it as a dark beer.
Lilly:6:40
Nice.
Laura:6:41
I am drinking green tea, and it is from Walmart, so it's not special.
Sara:6:46
tea is always special.
Laura:6:48
I really like it.
Hannah:6:50
that's good.
Lilly:6:50
I have, basically amounts to a cup of cinnamon, but I have cinnamon tea with fireball, so it's, the cinnamon is through the charts, off the charts, through the roof.
Hannah:7:01
Super cinnamony.
Sara:7:02
I discovered last year, last winter, that I don't like cinnamon in my tea. It doesn't work for me.
Laura:7:10
gosh, I love it.
Lilly:7:11
adding cinnamon to other tea? Because this is a cinnamon tea.
Sara:7:15
Like cinnamon, cinnamon in tea, as in cinnamon tea. Cinnamon as an ingredient in the tea.
Lilly:7:22
Interesting.
Laura:7:22
Interesting.
Hannah:7:24
think I'm, I'm kind of on the same page with you, Sarah. Like it tastes a little weird to me, but I also don't like like too much fruity, like apple fruit teas. Like,
Sara:7:33
Same, actually. So I think we're exactly on the same
Hannah:7:36
Like, so I think that that probably has something to do with it. Like if you don't like apple cinnamon, I think that like, there's not enough natural cinnamon usually. Usually it's like playing on the apple. And if you don't like that, you're not going to like the cinnamon.
Laura:7:48
How do you feel about ginger teas, though?
Hannah:7:51
I like ginger tea.
Sara:7:52
it's okay.
Hannah:7:53
Yeah.
Lilly:7:54
I don't know if it matters, but it's a, this is an herbal tea? I think I would agree that like black tea with cinnamon flavor would be weird.
Sara:8:01
It doesn't, cinnamon in tea just doesn't work. Like, I love cinnamon in, like, mulled wine, mulled cider. I like cinnamon. It's just that in tea. It's not for me, apparently.
Lilly:8:14
Interesting. Well, you don't have to have any.
Hannah:8:17
This is Lily cinnamon tea.
Lilly:8:20
I won't pour it on my keyboard to try to get it to you.
Sara:8:23
I think that's probably for the best.
Lilly:8:25
Well, has anyone read anything good lately?
Laura:8:27
I have. And I have been waiting to talk about it with you guys because you are the manga people. So, I read the first three volumes of Rooster Fighter. I don't know if you have read this, but I want you to read it ASAP. It's the most ridiculous manga that makes me laugh so much because it follows a rooster who is trying to get revenge for the death of his sister. And he kills demons with sonic rooster crows. And he has animal husbandry realistic sex with chickens throughout the whole series. I told Hannah, it's like the worst manga, but it's also the best because it's just so ridiculous and doesn't take itself seriously. So I need you to read it. I've been begging people to read this.
Sara:9:19
that sounds amazing.
Hannah:9:20
Laura has begged people to read this and their answer back is no.
Sara:9:23
How can people say no to a pitch like that? I don't understand.
Laura:9:27
I told someone on Instagram that it's like looking at a car crash, you just can't look away. And they said, if you look, if you stand too close to a car crash, you get involved in the crash.
Hannah:9:39
I need to read that manga but I've not read any manga so I almost want to do that as my first one because I feel like it's the worst representation but also the perfect thing to be like oh yeah I've totally read that I read this one like.
Laura:9:51
on a lot of lists of people saying it's like their most beloved manga, and that surprises me because I had just read Spy Family and Witch Hat Atelier, and those were so much better. But if this resonates with people, I, I guess,
Sara:10:05
sometimes you just like trash.
Laura:10:07
Yeah.
Hannah:10:08
that's like everyone who watches TV shows for where you're really like, Oh, that one. And it's like, you can't look away.
Laura:10:13
Yes.
Hannah:10:13
My old roommate and I had a discussion where she was like, Do you remember how much SVU you watch during your dark period? And I was like, Yes, I did. And like, I would never go back and watch that with like, enjoyment ever. Like, you're just watching something. But for me, I recently read This is How You Lose the Time War by Max Gladstone and Amal El Motar. I really liked that book. It's like right in my sweet spot of like science fiction fantasy. That's like the weirdest thing you're ever going to pick up. Because it's written by two dual authors who they're each characters who are like in a time war and they're trying to fight against each other, but they're like writing each other notes and like very weird and unique ways. And they're slowly falling in love. And I adored that book. It was weird and strange and lovely. So.
Lilly:10:58
I've heard a lot of good things about it.
Sara:11:00
yeah, I was gonna say I have a friend who's a huge fan.
Hannah:11:04
I know that Laura read it, and she didn't love it, but she also said, like, it was probably a little bit of when she read it, and how she was reading it.
Laura:11:12
I honestly think that like sometimes certain books just like don't work with your brain chemistry and that one just doesn't work with mine. Like literally I read the book and then I was like, I don't know what I just read. So I listened to the audio book and I still didn't know what I read. So I, I think it just doesn't work for my brain and I think that just happens sometimes.
Hannah:11:33
I think I'm a very specific, like, sci fi person, where it's like, the weirder, the better, and if I have to buy into something that I don't fully understand, I'm like, this is art. And, like, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing.
Lilly:11:45
I finally finished Cabal by Clive Barker. It, the ending was not, it's definitely a horror book, but the plot was much sweeter and the resolution was like much more uplifting than I was expecting. It was nice.
Hannah:12:00
This one took you a while to get through, didn't it?
Lilly:12:02
It did, well, I did that thing where I read 70 percent of it and then had to read podcast books for three weeks.
Hannah:12:10
Okay.
Laura:12:10
been there.
Lilly:12:11
Yeah. So if you look at like the actual time I spent reading it, not that bad. But yes, I spread it out quite a bit. Weird book. Very good. I have a lot of, like, opinions, but if I start talking about it, that's what this episode's gonna turn into.
Hannah:12:26
Have you read a lot of Clive Barker?
Lilly:12:28
I've been on a kick. This is the third book of his that I've read. I read The Hellbound Heart, which is the Hellraiser book, and then The Scarlet Gospels, which is... Also about Pinhead from Hellraiser but written much, much later and not related to the content of the movies. And then Cabal. Definitely, like, gory, but all have very different vibes. It's interesting. He's a cool guy.
Laura:12:58
I have no idea who that author is, so I'm going to have to go.
Lilly:13:01
That's alright you might be aware of the Hellraiser movies.
Laura:13:05
Okay. Yeah. I am.
Hannah:13:07
Yeah.
Lilly:13:07
he wrote the books and also, I don't know if he wrote or directed the movies. But was part of the creation. So the, the first Hellraiser movie is very close to the Hellbound Heart. Very, very close. Because he did both of them.
Laura:13:22
Okay.
Hannah:13:23
And he did direct the first one cause I have it up on Wikipedia.
Lilly:13:26
Ah, thank you.
Hannah:13:27
You're welcome.
Lilly:13:29
But yeah, it's neat. He, like, was born in the 50s, very involved in the, like, gay community in England. So has like a very fascinating sort of counterculture approach to horror. And like, there are some very, dated. female characters, but it's not the female characters that are dated. It's just people treating them like they would have back in the day. Which is hard to pull off, I think, for an author to say like, no, she's a real person. It's the people around her who suck.
Hannah:13:59
That's awesome though. That that's like the kind of the vibe
Laura:14:04
Mm hmm.
Lilly:14:04
Yeah. No, I'm really enjoying them.
Hannah:14:07
there have been so many Hellraiser movies.
Lilly:14:09
Yeah, I've seen like five? They aren't all good.
Hannah:14:13
That's what I've heard.
Lilly:14:14
But apparently the remake, the recent remake is very good. Or TV show? Something, something came out recently that I've heard good things about.
Hannah:14:21
I think it's a Hulu movie, it looks like.
Sara:14:24
This is not the Clive Barker episode.
Lilly:14:27
I told you, if I got started I wouldn't stop.
Hannah:14:29
I ask questions. It's my fault.
Sara:14:31
No, this is completely Lily's fault. You are blameless, Hannah.
Lilly:14:35
This is, however, our first Spooky Month episode of the year.
Laura:14:39
Yay.
Lilly:14:40
I'm
Hannah:14:41
Spooky Halloween.
Laura:14:43
I'm so scared.
Lilly:14:44
throwing a softball here because we read Which Witch, which is a children's book. But kind of impressively dark for a children's book.
Laura:14:53
I mean, one scene was very, very disturbing.
Hannah:14:56
Well, two scenes, like I was like the scene with the sisters, I was like, this is dark.
Laura:15:01
I'm forgetting that. I was thinking the rats.
Sara:15:03
it definitely goes to some dark places. That's for sure.
Lilly:15:07
The tone of the book is very lighthearted and silly, but then it'll talk about like, Oh yes, eyeballs and then like thigh bones in a cute crisscross pattern to decorate the room.
Sara:15:18
Okay, but I don't think that thigh bones in a cute crisscross pattern is inherently dark.
Lilly:15:25
It's...
Hannah:15:25
It's,
Lilly:15:26
Much
Hannah:15:26
it's
Laura:15:26
thigh bones are they, I guess?
Hannah:15:29
well, I think it's one of those weird things where like this is a children's book that has like a very light premise, which is like a wizard or warlock. I forget what it is, but he needs to get married. A wizard needs to get married. So he has a competition to prove like, which, which is the darkest. And that is inherently not that dark. It seems like comical, which this book is comical, but there are certain things where it's like, well, if you're an imaginative child and you're sitting there, like there's thigh bones at a crisscross, you're like, well, someone was murdered for that. That's awesome.
Sara:15:56
They don't have to have been murdered though, they could have just died of old age.
Laura:16:00
Grave rabbing.
Hannah:16:01
But it's, it's a very strange, like some of the ramifications of this book where you're reading it and you're like, that's surprisingly dark.
Lilly:16:08
Really quick we're going to spoil the hell out of this book because it was written in 1979 and it's for children.
Laura:16:14
You've had all this time to read it, so.
Lilly:16:17
But the idea that, so one of the witches for her like entry into the competition seals people away in trees. And then the dad is just like, no, I'm going to stay in here. I hate my family, which is wild.
Laura:16:31
and daughter are, like, emotionally abusive to him. They're terrible.
Lilly:16:37
Yeah, kind of all of the women in this book are terrible,
Hannah:16:40
Yeah, except for Bella Donna, who is the nicest and the most pretty and the best of the land. So she's fine,
Lilly:16:47
but she doesn't try to be pretty, because if you try to be pretty, then you're evil.
Laura:16:51
She's not like the other witches, okay?
Lilly:16:54
Oh, this book is the ultimate, like, This girl is not like the other girls who are not like the other girls.
Hannah:17:01
Yeah.
Laura:17:03
I mean, they do have some names that make them stand out. I mean, that was one of the things that caught me right away from listening to the audiobook was like, Mother Bloodworth Ethel Feedbag was one, if I'm remembering right. So the names are a little out there as well.
Hannah:17:20
They're also a little on the nose because you have like Nancy Shouter, Nora Shouter, Bella Donna, like, beautiful woman.
Laura:17:28
Yeah.
Sara:17:29
it's very British. I think it's a very British kind of humor.
Laura:17:33
Absolutely.
Lilly:17:35
I do remember the first time I read this book when I was a kid, asking my mom what a kipper is, because I didn't know. You encounter these things in books for the first time, and you're like, What the hell is that?
Laura:17:46
How old were you when you read this for the first time? Okay. Okay.
Lilly:17:48
Pretty young. I want to say, like, maybe 11 or 12.
Laura:17:53
Okay.
Hannah:17:54
Seems the right age. I was worried you were about to say like seven.
Lilly:17:56
Oh god.
Laura:17:57
I was, I was worried about that too. I was like, did she read this too young because there are some darker things. So it's like, you're kind of treading a line here.
Lilly:18:08
yeah, I was old enough to love it.
Laura:18:10
Okay.
Sara:18:11
I'm pretty sure that I read it when I was a kid too. Although I don't still own a copy of it. So, it probably wasn't a book that I, like, had very strong feelings about. I do, however, own another book of hers. Of Eva Ibbotson's.
Hannah:18:28
And what book do you own of hers?
Sara:18:30
The Secret of Platform 13.
Hannah:18:32
Okay,
Laura:18:34
I am aware of this just because I had Googled the author and seen some controversy related to that book specifically. So.
Sara:18:41
I don't remember anything about the book. What's the controversy?
Laura:18:45
So apparently people wonder if The author of Harry Potter stole a lot of platform nine and three quarters from that book So
Hannah:18:56
well not Eva Ibbotson drama then. Just
Sara:18:59
okay, so it's
Hannah:19:01
more from that other author that we don't like to talk about. She who must not be named as it were.
Sara:19:08
yeah, okay. So it's not controversy that Eva Ibbotson
Laura:19:11
Not controversy related to this author.
Hannah:19:14
I do know that like growing up, I remember one of the covers of this book and off mic, we all talked about how many covers of this book there are and how none of them quite match up to the energy of this besides the original cover, which is really badass, but like. I remember the one cover with a witch with black hair, like standing in the middle of the book. And like, she has like a weird hairdo and it's very cartoonish. So I remember seeing this book as a child and being like, yeah, that looks like my vibe and just never picking it up because I skipped a couple grades when reading because one of my sisters only got me like older books. So she didn't have to take me to the library as much. So
Lilly:19:49
Well, you're welcome.
Hannah:19:51
This was an excellent book I found a lot of humor in this book and like, Sarah's right, the humor is very British, which makes it very enjoyable as an adult reading this novel, because it's a little bit more sarcastic and rude than like, I think sometimes American funny books are
Laura:20:08
Mm hmm. I will also say like reading this as an adult I'm listening to some of the things that were said and it kind of hit me in the heartstrings a little bit at times, because there are mentions of Terrence and how he was a lonely child who turned to animals and became friends with them, and I was like, oh my gosh, that's me! And so, some of the themes that are brought up in this, like, loneliness and found family and stuff, like, are really heart wrenching.
Lilly:20:38
agree. I was bracing myself to get torn apart for how, like, patriarchal it is. So I'm glad that everyone else enjoyed it.
Sara:20:46
Yeah. I mean, it's not without its problems.
Laura:20:48
right.
Sara:20:49
But I think it's still an enjoyable book, as long as you recognize that, yes, there is some really weird, like, gender stuff, and there's some weird patriarchy stuff, and
Hannah:21:00
It's like how the Disney movies now have warnings and certain parts of them where it's like, Hey, when you watch this movie, just beware to tell your children. There's a scene that's racist.
Lilly:21:09
Yeah.
Laura:21:09
Mhm.
Hannah:21:10
It's a coming, I think that that's kind of the era I read this with where there were like certain parts where I was like, Oh, like this is deeply like, pretty people are all nice and ugly people are horrible and you should fear anyone who's old because they're disgusting. It's a weird energy because this book first, like, kind of holds up on a pedestal, like, dark and gross things, but the second that dark and gross things are put on women, it's reviled and, like, not good, where it's like, he could never marry a woman with whiskers, but he would love to see, like, eyeballs strung on the wall. Like,
Lilly:21:43
Mm hmm.
Hannah:21:44
the energies do not match each other.
Sara:21:47
also, a woman who wears wellingtons is the worst thing ever.
Laura:21:51
He would really hate me. Oh my gosh.
Lilly:21:55
Well, it's Ironic, right, that he says, I want to marry the, like, the most evil witch. And then, of course, all the evil witches are evil and therefore gross in this world. It's like, no, he, he wanted a nice witch because he wants a nice wife.
Hannah:22:10
yeah, that's just every man who's like, I really want a smart woman, but I also want to explain things to her. Like, I want to prove that I'm smarter than a woman,
Lilly:22:17
I have to say, I did not remember Eraman at all from reading it as a kid, so clearly he did not make a very strong impression on me.
Laura:22:25
Apparently he did not make a strong impression on me because off air right before we started this I was like oh the prince and you all were like what, what prince? I had assumed that he was a prince. So my bad.
Lilly:22:37
Prince of Darkness, maybe.
Sara:22:39
I mean, they do kind of talk about him in terms of royalty, like, they don't describe him as royalty, he's never called a prince, but he's this revered. icon of darkness in the land that everyone looks up to, so I could see where you got that from.
Lilly:22:56
They do say his wife will be the Queen of Darkness Manor or whatever his house is called.
Hannah:23:02
But then they immediately move out of it.
Laura:23:04
Maybe I just connected some dots that weren't there.
Hannah:23:07
Yeah, I do think like the book doesn't really care about Arraman though if you look at it like past the first chapter, I couldn't tell you three things this man likes other than his ghost friend. He doesn't really care about much, and it feels like Bella Donna is the ultimate. choice, like, that all of his people around him want him to pick. And they all kind of treat him like he's too stupid to know what's good for him. And they have to take care of him. So I feel like even the author was like, I don't care about Ahriman. He is set dressing for the rest of this story. So Child Lily was just good at picking up on what the author cared about.
Lilly:23:41
Oh, his servants being so condescending to him is absolutely delightful.
Sara:23:45
I disagree just a little bit not entirely. I think you have a point, but I also think that part of the humor of this book is just how over the top everything is, including how over the top his servants are about him, and how He doesn't care about much except not getting married to any of these horrible people who are in the competition.
Lilly:24:09
He retreats. And spends all of his time with the, the ghost of someone who's murdered his seven wives. Really, like, priming the pump for a healthy marriage.
Laura:24:19
hmm. I was gonna say, you'd think that there would be maybe like some red flags that would be going off for some of these people that they're like, hmm, maybe I shouldn't enter this contest, but okay.
Sara:24:29
Yeah, but he's attractive and powerful and rich. Of course everyone wants to marry that.
Laura:24:36
I mean, that's the only thing that matters.
Sara:24:39
Clearly.
Lilly:24:40
Rereading this, I think one of the reasons why I might have latched onto it so much was all of the familiars.
Laura:24:48
yes.
Lilly:24:48
Who are absolutely delightful.
Laura:24:51
I love the familiars.
Lilly:24:52
Yeah, each witch has her own, like, animal familiar. My favorite is, of course, Doris the octopus.
Laura:25:00
It's not Rover?
Lilly:25:01
Oh, I also love Rover.
Laura:25:03
I was gonna say, Rover was making me tear up
Sara:25:05
Rover doesn't count as a familiar
Laura:25:07
Oh, come on.
Lilly:25:08
He counts as a familiar.
Sara:25:10
No, I think you could rules lawyer it and if you're talking about your favorite familiar, it's totally fine to say Doris and not mention Rover.
Lilly:25:17
Well, the last one on my list is the little bat that lives in Belladonna's hair. So I think maybe I just mean the animal friends.
Hannah:25:24
Yeah, the animal friends are good. I love the, the chicken story. Like, the two sisters who fight all the time in the audio book. I did like the person who read for it. She has like such an animated voice and she'll be like, that's my chicken. So delightful to hear these women screaming about chickens.
Laura:25:41
Because they can't tell the chickens apart,
Hannah:25:43
But like, there's also sad moments where like, Belladonna knows which chicken was which and she's like, I'm just not gonna say anything because it won't help.
Laura:25:50
That's gonna create more problems, so...
Hannah:25:53
Oh,
Laura:25:54
them duke it out.
Sara:25:56
I do kind of wish we got more of the animals.
Laura:25:59
Yeah.
Sara:26:00
Because they do get relegated to the sidelines once the competition really starts.
Laura:26:05
Yeah, there's a lot of buildup with the familiars, and then it's just kinda like, Alright, we're done with that for now.
Hannah:26:10
It's kind of just to teach you, like, Attributes of each of the, witches where it's like, well, Doris, the octopus goes with the woman who was like made from a mermaid who decided to walk on land. And the chickens are two women who shout at each other because chickens hen peck to ha ha Like, yeah, then there's, isn't Ethel Feedback. Is she the one who has the pig?
Lilly:26:31
Yeah. Yup. The
Laura:26:32
you'd think a feed bag would be a horse, but what do I know?
Sara:26:36
Yeah, but horses are too noble for that kind of character.
Laura:26:41
we have to throw logic out the window who actually uses a feed bag, and we have to go more for stereotypes of what human traits we can put on animals.
Sara:26:52
Exactly.
Lilly:26:54
But then you get Rover, the little earthworm.
Laura:26:56
Yes, I
Hannah:26:57
It was,
Lilly:26:57
So sweet.
Hannah:26:59
it was heartbreaking when it was like Belladonna could have laughed at Terrence's face that she named him Rover, but she knows that he just wanted a dog and I was like, that is heartbreaking.
Laura:27:08
He wanted a pet so bad and lived in an orphanage so could not have one and has a worm that he names Rover. Oh, devastating.
Hannah:27:18
Also, why was there so much in our lives that we were like, do you know that orphanage teachers are the worst and abusive and will like hold vendettas against children?
Laura:27:28
know what? I kind of blame Little Orphan Annie for starting all of this because there became like just an orphanage obsession in media for quite a while. that seems like one of the first ones, Little Orphan Annie. So, Miss Hannigan started it.
Sara:27:41
I feel like it started earlier because doesn't Dickens have some really horrible orphanages? So I feel like it's a really old trend,
Laura:27:50
Yeah.
Hannah:27:51
Well, it's probably built on like, I mean, a lot of children who were given up like there weren't enough resources to attribute to them. But instead of like blaming society and capitalism, we were like, Those orphan teachers, man, they're actually the worst. They're just inherently evil and not just probably doing their best and overworked. Like,
Laura:28:08
was just saying, they're not overworked. Don't worry about that. Because whenever you see them depicted, it's like 500 children and one adult trying to care for all of them.
Hannah:28:17
Who is
Laura:28:17
So I guess if there was a kid that was like trying to bring a bunch of worms in, you'd be really mad.
Sara:28:22
But he's only trying to bring the one worm in.
Laura:28:25
I know.
Lilly:28:26
But if every kid brings in one worm...
Hannah:28:29
Then you're overrun with worms.
Laura:28:31
It's a lot of worms.
Sara:28:32
I mean, and to be fair, she does say that he bit her really hard when he was a baby.
Lilly:28:39
how to pinch children without leaving marks so the health inspector doesn't catch on.
Hannah:28:44
Oh,
Laura:28:44
I don't like that.
Sara:28:46
I'm not trying to justify her in any way. She's a terrible person in this book.
Laura:28:51
Yeah.
Hannah:28:52
she is abusive. I'm just talking more about the representation of like orphan keepers and books.
Laura:28:59
general.
Hannah:29:00
Yeah. Or it's always like evil.
Lilly:29:02
I think at the end, because at the end Terrence turns her into a spider, that's how he discovers he's a wizard they say she's replaced with a new headmistress who's fat, and that's how you know she's nice,
Hannah:29:14
That's the one non fat phobic thing they did. And it's still stereotypical.
Lilly:29:18
Yeah.
Laura:29:19
Dolly. Of course.
Hannah:29:21
You know, fat people, they're either evil or jolly. So,
Laura:29:24
I know. It can only be those things. So,
Sara:29:27
Well, and if you're going to have a nice headmistress of an orphanage, they have to be fat and jolly.
Hannah:29:34
also love at the end of this book that like, Ahriman and Belladonna are like, we're moving out of the house because going into the twist, you know, you said that Terrence discovers he's a wizard, that he's going to live in the house by himself. And it's like, why aren't they like adopting him or becoming caretakers? Like they're just leaving this child alone
Laura:29:54
free life.
Sara:29:55
Eremin moved out of his parents place at like 15, though.
Hannah:29:58
that's true. But Terrence is like 11. Like he
Sara:30:01
Terrence, is a stronger wizard than Ahriman.
Hannah:30:04
Oh,
Lilly:30:04
And nothing can go wrong with very strong powers and no parental oversight.
Hannah:30:09
but also like Ibbitson recognizes that like, Oh, he still needs parental supervision. Cause they're like, well, the wizard watcher is actually just a glorified babysitter at the end of the day.
Lilly:30:19
I thought that part was really sweet, too. So, the Wizard Watcher is this, like, multi headed seal dog,
Laura:30:26
Yeah.
Lilly:30:26
monster thing?
Hannah:30:27
Yeah
Laura:30:28
hand head talks to the right hand head, and the right hand head talks back to the left hand head. I love that.
Lilly:30:34
mm hmm.
Hannah:30:35
me too.
Lilly:30:36
Ahriman created him to watch for the greatest wizard who will inherit his legacy or whatever. And so when they find Terrence, the Wizard Watcher is sad because he's like, Aw, there's no job left for me now. And Belladonna says, you have to watch over the wizard. And I thought that was very cute.
Hannah:30:54
have to go live our child free life.
Laura:30:56
Hey, we don't see that depicted enough, so
Hannah:30:59
That's fair. I mean, you're not wrong, but
Laura:31:01
Let's give them a pass on that, that they decided we will not adopt this child.
Hannah:31:06
we will just give him our house. Okay. That is what we have to
Lilly:31:10
He's got a dog, what
Hannah:31:11
do Yeah. Okay.
Sara:31:12
I mean, the logic of this book doesn't necessarily hold up, it's true.
Laura:31:17
I mean, there's a witch that turns herself into a table and just decides that she wants to be a table from Now on
Lilly:31:23
Yeah.
Hannah:31:24
actually really liked her full circle story of like myself.
Laura:31:27
think I'd rather be a table.
Lilly:31:28
And
Hannah:31:30
I want to be a table. Sometimes I don't want to be 20 anymore. Cause like, same girl, same. I do not want to be 20
Sara:31:36
I was really ready in the beginning, because she has a, there's a long period of this book where she's talking about how she wants to be young, and where the book is kind of glorifying youth, like poking fun at, oh you're old, how funny. And I was really ready to be very mad at her plotline and how that upholds this harmful, like, society value of, youth over everything. And then at the end when she's, decides that actually she wants to be old again, I was like, okay, I guess you've ended my whole rant prematurely.
Laura:32:11
Fine no longer mad about that.
Sara:32:14
I guess I can't be mad. God.
Hannah:32:17
Weirdly, like does well about like dropping breadcrumbs and picking them back up again. Like the whole like youth spell was like the beginning. And then at the end, she was like, Oh, I regret that. I was like, Oh, I wasn't expecting that. And I also was shocked when they played matchmaker and got Madame Olympia and the ghost together because they were like, they were made for each other. And I'm like, Oh, you're definitely right. But I didn't see that coming.
Laura:32:39
also didn't see that coming. I was like, oh, I thought we were just done with Madame Olympia Okay.
Hannah:32:43
And they're like, Nope, we're gonna get her a husband and we're gonna get him a wife. And that's all they ever wanted. Like it's their weird, twisted, happy ending.
Lilly:32:51
everyone gets a pretty good happy ending in this book, I think.
Laura:32:54
hmm
Sara:32:55
yeah, I think this book is really good at dropping breadcrumbs that you don't necessarily see when you're reading it for the first time, but if you're rereading it, you recognize, oh, I see what you're doing, like you're weaving this really seamlessly into the plot, so that the twists when they come are a surprise still, but they're not just completely random, out of left field, no hints about it whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah.
Hannah:33:20
Because also, like, when Terrence gets taken back to the orphanage, I was like, Oh, I forgot, like, they probably would have cared about this child going missing. I thought Madame Olympia just stolen him because she was like, I can't get the worm. I'll this child. And she like figured out that he was a wizard. But then I was like, Oh, no, it was just the orphanage, which is an even better surprise. Because it's so ridiculous.
Laura:33:39
Oh, they do care.
Hannah:33:42
and I love that the police officers were like scared but still casing the joint to like wait for him to leave. And then they're like, you can't run away. Like infrastructure actually working as a weird twist.
Lilly:33:52
I really loved the twist that Terrence ended up being. The most powerful wizard. So he's introduced with Rover, the earthworm. Who Belladonna thinks is a very powerful dark familiar and allowing her to do all of this dark magic. But it turns out that it's actually just been Terrence the whole time doing all of the dark magic for her. But neither of them knew. And it's just a very, like, I don't know, I really love that.
Sara:34:20
a good twist.
Lilly:34:21
Yeah.
Laura:34:22
I appreciated it too, because I, really thought it was going to be something kind of just like, Oh, we find out that maybe Terrence is the familiar or that he just inspires her so much or that the worm actually was the familiar or something. So I did like the, that was the person doing the magic.
Hannah:34:40
I had definitely clocked that it was Terrence from the beginning because immediately after introducing him, the wizard watcher goes on vacation. And I was like, Oh, yeah, they had to like, they had to get him to leave so that when Terrence comes to the site, no one's watching. But I was like, that's really smart. And it's It's fun to read that because I think some kids could pick up on that and be like, Oh, he's the wizard. And that gets really excited. That's where I'm like, well, this book is smart, because it at least allows kids to like, kind of foreshadow and kind of figure things out. But it does it in like a humorous way where you're like, enjoying the entire time you're reading. And it's not like, oh, you're stupid for not picking up on this, but it's not on the page. But like, there's enough there for young kids to read into things.
Sara:35:20
I think it respects its readers.
Laura:35:23
Yeah.
Lilly:35:24
So there were two, we sort of alluded to this earlier, two very dark moments in this book. One I would say is just gruesomely dark, and the other one is like, emotionally dark.
Laura:35:34
Mm hmm.
Lilly:35:35
The gruesome one's pretty straightforward, Madame Olympia's... feat.
Laura:35:39
death.
Lilly:35:40
Yeah, the symphony of death. She summons a bunch of rats who eat each other and then themselves, like, ugh. Autocannibalism. is a lot.
Laura:35:49
Yeah, that was gross.
Hannah:35:51
That was very dark.
Laura:35:53
And I was not expecting That much of a turn. I'm like, symphony of death, ha ha ha, necromancy, and then it's just like, oh, oh gosh.
Hannah:36:02
I also love that like airmen is such a hypocrite because he sees that happen. And he's like, well, she's probably not that dark all the time. Like I could appreciate that that was the darkest thing, but I'm going to like hold the point back because eww
Laura:36:13
I could change her.
Lilly:36:14
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, at that point he's like, Well, I know she's the winner, and I guess it's great that I found such a dark wife, right? He's like, so scared about it. Like, guy, this is what you asked for. Literally what you asked for.
Sara:36:29
But it's also a little frustrating, in terms of Ehrman's character, because he wants a dark wife, but he doesn't want anyone darker than him.
Lilly:36:39
Mm hmm.
Laura:36:39
He's still gotta be the best.
Hannah:36:41
Again, it's a guy who wants a smart
Laura:36:43
Yeah.
Hannah:36:43
to explain things to her. It's just internalized misogyny.
Lilly:36:47
Yeah. When it's explaining all of his evil deeds, none of them are that bad. Like, he doesn't actually do anything. The one thing he does is sink an oil tanker. I got to that line and I was like, okay, that's actually bad.
Hannah:37:02
I mean, he also does become weirdly obsessed with a dead guy who murdered a bunch of his wives. So I also think that that's probably the darkest thing
Sara:37:10
I think that's just because he's alone in this big house, he has no other friends except for his employees.
Lilly:37:18
Who he's sent off to babysit these weird witches.
Sara:37:21
Yeah, who he sends off all the time, like, he latches on to, Sir whatever his name was. Not Monty, Monty was the actor.
Laura:37:30
Sir Simon, I thought was his name.
Sara:37:32
Like, no wonder he latches on to Sir Simon.
Lilly:37:35
He's also dreading getting married, so it's that thing where, like, you have a medical procedure coming up, so you read about all the things that can go wrong. Other people do that, right?
Laura:37:44
Anytime I have any kind of medical symptom, I Google it and it's always just like immediately cancer. Like, that's the first thing that you look up, like, no!
Lilly:37:51
Oh, yeah.
Laura:37:53
Oh gosh. So yes, I do do. that.
Hannah:37:55
And the other dark thing that happens is one of the sisters accidentally murders her sister like manslaughter style like she pushes her into a bottomless pit. And the implication is that the sister can never come back.
Laura:38:07
Well, the bottom of the pit just, well, they thought there was a bottom and then it just, it's gone.
Hannah:38:12
it's gone. And like, A lot of this novel is lighthearted and joyful, but that one instance, it's like every time you come in on the sister, she's like, asking, do you think I had the right chicken, which is like what started the fight. And it's like, oh, this woman is like forever changed from this moment. The ramifications are there. It was very jarring in this book to have that. Cause I was just not expecting it. I was not expecting like actual sibling, murder.
Lilly:38:39
With consequences, too. She's like, very depressed.
Sara:38:42
Yeah, I think that the depression, I mean obviously it makes sense from a personal standpoint, but it is kind of jarring for the book because it's so lighthearted in other ways. Despite some of the goriness the tone is still very lighthearted in general, and then you get her, and she's just understandably depressed, and you're like, this is kind of whiplash from everything else that's going on.
Laura:39:10
Yeah.
Hannah:39:12
do wonder Sarah, you mentioned, like, this book takes its readers seriously, and I do think, like, these moments are places where it takes it seriously, because a lot of times nowadays, like, television and media for children is very sanitized. Like, you get the Disney fication of things where it's like, everything's bright and happy colors, and like, people just hug on TV all the time to settle their differences.
Laura:39:35
We were sad, but now we're over it because it's five minutes later.
Hannah:39:38
Right. And everything that's wrong is just miscommunication. So I do enjoy the fact that, like,, this book, in the late 70s, and something that, like, stuck out to Lily as, a book she loved, you know, it, it takes children seriously, and it lets them have, darker moments and I could see, if I had read this book at 11, I probably would have lost some sleep because I was a huge scaredy cat, and, like, the rats would have, like, Giving me nightmares, but like there is something to letting kids have those moments when they're at age 11 and 12 where it's like, Oh, I get to feel nervous and feel scared. And that's an okay emotion to start playing with. And I don't think we let kids do that very often nowadays.
Lilly:40:15
It's true. And so she's dealing with the consequences of this for, I would say, like, at least a third of the book.
Laura:40:22
Mm
Lilly:40:23
But then, at the end, Terrence reverses it and brings her sister back. And so it's like, you have to sit with it for a long time, but it is still ultimately okay. I don't know, the pacing of that was very good, I think. If it had been too quick, it would have felt cheap.
Hannah:40:37
Yeah.
Laura:40:38
Yeah. True.
Hannah:40:39
I also do like that at the end, nothing changes with the sisters. They go back to fighting pretty much immediately. Because isn't that every sibling relationship ever? Like, I regret what happened, but also it doesn't change our sibling dynamics at all.
Lilly:40:50
Yeah. I was also... I think, upon this reread, very affected by the baby Kraken.
Laura:40:58
Oh, yeah.
Lilly:40:59
Oh, sad.
Laura:41:00
That was sad to me, too. They're like, oh, we can't throw it back in the water. It's a baby. Like, oh my
Sara:41:06
I think that's also one of the really darkest points of the book because they talk about how the Kraken's parent died.
Lilly:41:15
And it was hit by an oil tanker, presumably the one that Ahriman sank, right?
Sara:41:20
Yeah,
Lilly:41:20
So, he killed the Kraken's parents. And it's just a baby, and it needs someone to, ehh, ehh.
Laura:41:28
the audiobook, it like makes noises and the narrator makes noises and you're just like, no, stop that.
Hannah:41:35
And it'll go like, M Mommy? Daddy? And it's just like, Oh, this poor baby, I'm so sad that it chose Aramon as its dad because Aramon, like, it's one of those things where everyone, is like, isn't it so funny that he hates it, but really secretly loves it? I'm like, no, he's just screaming at this baby.
Lilly:41:51
Yeah. But then it's like wrapped up in this scene that's hilarious, because Mabel Rack, I think, was the mermaid witch, or the witch whose mother was a mermaid. Her big, great feat was going to be to summon a kraken, which she does.
Sara:42:06
she he deserves more points than she got. I think she gets four points.
Laura:42:10
too.
Sara:42:11
And, I mean, granted, she, she had the embarrassing thing where her aunts came and, you know, made a scene.
Lilly:42:19
that was the hilarity I was referring to, yes.
Sara:42:21
So I'm sorry to steal your thunder.
Lilly:42:23
like, go away, you're embarrassing me, meh, meh.
Sara:42:26
So like, yes, that happens. And yes, the Kraken is a little baby. But also, she summoned a kraken,
Laura:42:32
She still did it.
Sara:42:33
she deserves at least six points.
Lilly:42:36
I agree.
Hannah:42:37
agree.
Lilly:42:38
It was the most successful.
Hannah:42:40
Yeah. It felt weird. She did summon it. She succeeded. I guess it's like, in terms of darkness, it technically wasn't dark enough because you just, like, got a cute baby. I also love that at the beginning they thought it was a handbag, like these, mermaids come up on a beach and she's like, you forgot your handbag! Very progressive for the time. Yeah! Like.
Lilly:42:57
But then at the end, she asks to be turned into a mermaid and to go find her aunts to apologize, which I thought was very sweet.
Sara:43:04
I actually thought it was really interesting, her family history, because her mother was a siren, who was not very successful, so she was like, fuck this, got plastic surgery to give her legs, and then goes and lives life as a human. And like, that's, that's great. That's a fantastic backstory.
Lilly:43:25
I would read that book.
Sara:43:26
Yeah.
Hannah:43:27
I, also do love that, like, there was that kind of happy moment with plastic surgery, because later, Madame Olympia's backstory is horribly, sexist, because it's just like, women just buy these creams from her to look young and vibrant, and it never works. And it's like, well, tell us more about how you feel about women aging.
Laura:43:44
I
Lilly:43:45
I thought that was like almost an indictment on society pressuring women to be appealing.
Hannah:43:52
Yeah,
Laura:43:53
kind of got those vibes too.
Lilly:43:54
yeah, because she was taking advantage of women's insecurity to create these lotions that did work only for a short time and then make them uglier than they were before so that they're forced to, like, keep coming back.
Hannah:44:08
yeah. Maybe I read too much into that.
Lilly:44:11
I don't think it quite gets there, but I think it, tried to.
Sara:44:14
I think if this had been a book for older readers, that would have been more effective. But it's hard to make those kinds of comments on society effectively when you have a book for ten year olds,
Hannah:44:30
I think. I agree with that. Because like, there was something to this where you're reading about horrible, ugly witches, where I kept thinking like, this is just training 10 year olds to treat old people like shit. But they're like, I'm afraid of them. Why? Because they have to be evil.
Laura:44:47
It's also a short book too. So it's like hard to be pulling too much out of it. You know what I mean? When it's like, yeah, the author probably only had this much space to dedicate to this one thing. So maybe it's not going to be the greatest.
Lilly:45:01
I do think probably the worst aspect of this book was that You have to be beautiful, but if you try to be beautiful, that makes you evil and bad. You have to be effortlessly beautiful. That was, I think, the, the roughest sort of through line.
Laura:45:18
Makeup creams. Garbage. only way to be beautiful is genetics. Genetics are the only way. So.
Sara:45:26
Being older, not great either.
Hannah:45:28
Yeah, well, that's even like there's a moment where airmen confronts Madame Olympia about stealing a familiar and it's like, well, when you're really in love, you see her for what she really is, which is ugly. And it's like, well, that could be a nice moment of like, Oh, you get to see like someone's inner self and you see that it matches their outer self or whatever. But it was more a side of like, Oh, she kind of looks older now because she's not enchanting him as well. It was a weird energy.
Laura:45:54
What? She had an opinion? ugly!
Hannah:45:58
I do like in the audio book Madame Olympia, the audio narrator does a cackle and it's awesome. Like if you guys can look it up, definitely do it I thought Madame Olympia was an effective evil person just because she was so dark it was surprising to have someone go that dark for that character, but I enjoyed it.
Sara:46:18
But she's also not that much of a villain. I mean, yes, she steals Rover. And yes, she's going to throw Rover into a fire when he doesn't work for her. And that's pretty shitty. Like I'm not trying to make it sound like that's not bad. But besides that, she doesn't really do anything.
Lilly:46:40
she cheats to enter the competition so that she can kill Ahriman. I mean, not that we care about Ahriman, but that's, that's antagonistic, I think you could say.
Sara:46:50
She definitely plays fast and loose with the rules, she moved into the, into the village, sure it was by threatening the witch who was living in that but she did move.
Lilly:47:02
Yeah, sure.
Hannah:47:03
I think she's an interesting character because like you're right. She's not like super duper evil when it comes to things. But it also sounds like it's because she just she thinks she's a shoe in like she's looking at the competition and she's like, yeah, I did what I needed to do. It's fine. She was a little bit worried about Bella Donna. So she like, doesn't want to get kicked out for cheating. So she steals the worm, which is a little bit more conniving. And then she like wants to murder the worm because it didn't work for her. I got this energy of like, well, I just expected to win. So I don't need to do too much. Like I have to be smart about how I cheat,
Sara:47:36
And it's true that they mentioned that she has poisoned cakes or something that she's left for Belladonna. I think the reason why. I don't view her as actually that much of an antagonist, even though she clearly is the antagonist of this book, is that she's so ineffective.
Hannah:47:51
Mm hmm.
Sara:47:52
She is not an effective antagonist. I never feel like she is actually a threat Belladonna.
Lilly:47:58
That's just because it's a kid's book,
Laura:47:59
Yeah. I was gonna say, I feel like that's kind of always villains and kids books where it's like they're really bad at being a villain. Yeah.
Sara:48:06
Maybe, but like, I've read kids books where I feel like the villain actually has a chance of winning.
Lilly:48:12
I think it's because of the Terrence twist, right? If Rover had been the source of the powers, it would have worked.
Sara:48:20
maybe.
Hannah:48:21
I also think I kind of shoved that off on the humor aspect of this book. Like, this book feels more of a, humorous tale than it is, like, deep fantasy where there's going to be a villain who could persevere. I always read this as this is a humor book, so it's going to have a happy ending in some sort, which is why, like, when it went dark, I was like shocked. But her being ineffective. I was more like, oh, that's because this is supposed to be kind of deeply funny. Like airmen is supposed to be very smart. And she kind of like picks up on the fact of like, Nope, I could murder him pretty easily. Like, he's not that dark. He's kind of ineffective. I just want to rule his household. Like,
Lilly:48:58
He's a doofus, I think is the right word for him. He might be very good at his job, but he's a doofus.
Sara:49:04
But we don't ever see him doing his job, so we don't know.
Lilly:49:07
There's a couple of lines that like, oh, he spends his time perfecting hair loss spells to make people lose their hair, like stuff like that. You don't actually see him do anything though.
Sara:49:16
so, so dark.
Hannah:49:18
I love that he gave them, this is just adult things, these are all technically adults, and he gave them like a hand mirror where he's like, you can look at me anytime you want. And I'm like, there are times when I feel like privacy is key, Aramid.
Sara:49:29
Yeah, that sounds like a bad idea. Actually.
Hannah:49:32
sounds like a terrible spell. I would be horrified if someone could just look in on me at any moment.
Lilly:49:37
Ah, but they can't hear. That's key.
Hannah:49:40
yeah.
Sara:49:42
I mean, I don't want someone looking
Laura:49:43
Yeah.
Sara:49:44
on me when I'm in the bathroom, for example.
Laura:49:47
worse if they can't hear. Yeah. Yeah.
Sara:49:50
I don't know.
Hannah:49:51
And like at one point Belladonna is so besotted with him that she's watching him sit in a closet waiting for his ghost friend he's just so lonely. And I'm like, honey, no.
Laura:50:01
Yeah, it's hard to figure out her love for him and all the times where she's like, I hope Terrence doesn't figure out that I'm in love. And then he's immediately just like, yeah, you're in love with him. And she's like, what? Oh, did you
Lilly:50:14
The romance plotline of this book, like, you all know, I'm a big romance nerd, but it was so not compelling to me. And not even when I was a kid, this is not like an adult saying it doesn't hold up, just like that was never the point. I think I just loved reading about all of the different witches.
Sara:50:32
I mean, the romance is insta love, so there's not anything to it.
Lilly:50:38
And then when you get together at the end, they're so like, schmoopy.
Sara:50:42
They're very schmoopy.
Hannah:50:43
I did like that she was going to break up with him. I did love the like switch because I think this happens a lot with like, for girl novels where it's like, we can't be together because I have a duty kind of thing. But it was her being like, Hey, Herman, you have a duty to like birth a child that's going to be evil. So I have to leave. I was like, Oh, I like that. It's her being like, I can't have your child, not like, I have to have a baby and you cannot give me what I want. I like that role reversal. Because that was also something I wasn't expecting of them having a discussion of like, what if you have a gray baby? What if you have a white baby? Like, this will not work. I can't do this.
Lilly:51:18
Oh, I did want to do a little bit of a words are weird segment. I don't know if we'll actually do the transition music or not because it came up so naturally in conversation. We've been using light and dark to refer to these witches. The book definitely says white and black. And I know that that's just like a language quirk, but every time she was like, I wish I was black. I was like, oof. It was Basically a translation thing from 1979 England to 2023 America, but still
Sara:51:48
yeah, I think that's just because the terms don't have those connotations in the UK as they do here, especially not in 1979 UK.
Hannah:51:58
It was weird to have this audio book that feels very modern with like the cover and it's obviously a British term. So it doesn't mean the same thing, but they use the term faggot. And I was like, I feel like they should have made that update by now. And like someone's drinking gin or someone's doing something. And I'm like, I don't mind that this is darker. I do mind the fact that they haven't changed some of the ickier words that we like now all agree as a society, we should watch out for like,
Laura:52:21
but they give Agatha Christie a pass, so, I mean,
Sara:52:25
Specifically to the point of faggot, even in the UK now, I don't think that has the same, like, I think they still use that term as a firelighter or whatever.
Lilly:52:33
And cigarettes, right?
Hannah:52:35
Yeah. it's a cigarette. But I think that was like the word thing where I was like, wow, we're just talking about cigarettes and stuff and using very specific types of words. It was a little strange to me, some of the word choices in this. But you're right, like I didn't, I used the term as the British way when I said it. They do allow it. Like, it was just weird to listen to it in 2023, where I was like, Oh, I wish we had made some updates on this book.
Lilly:52:58
I think it's just jarring. Because it's like, clearly that's not the intention, and not just, oh, they didn't know better, it was a different word.
Laura:53:06
Yeah.
Lilly:53:07
But you have to like, stop and go, wait, nope, nope.
Hannah:53:09
Nope. Nope. It's okay to keep listening. But I think it was that word. And there was one other one where I was like, Oh, this is weird. Like, it's jarring to hear. And I feel like it would have been changed by now. But I guess sometimes with older books, they're like, well, just keep it the same. People can have a conversation with their kid about words being weird and
Lilly:53:28
Yeah.
Hannah:53:29
having different connotations way back when.
Sara:53:32
And I think it's worth considering. I mean, I definitely think that some older books should come with a content warning for things like that. This book included. But I don't necessarily think that. The books need to be updated if there's the conversation in the title page or whatever around that because that is how it was written. And that is how the language worked in that time. it's just that the meaning of the word has changed. Not that they were using a bad word at that time.
Laura:54:04
Yeah. Like a context section.
Hannah:54:07
a context section is always key sometimes with those, but I also think that that's a larger conversation because I know like some Judy Blume books, they've tried to like quote unquote update with her, like they brought out their cell phone in a context of like, they went home, picked up a cell phone and made a call. And it's like, well, you need to change more if you're going to change that. Why
Lilly:54:24
that, yeah.
Hannah:54:26
are you doing that? It's a historical novel. We can all just say that.
Lilly:54:31
Yeah, I think I do like the idea of just giving a hey, heads up, hey guys, heads up, warning better than changing the actual text.
Hannah:54:39
Yeah, that's fair.
Lilly:54:41
Yeah.
Hannah:54:42
But it's always helpful because I remember when I was reading this, I was like, it's a very updated cover. So then when I was listening to it read to me, I was like, this is just older than I thought it was.
Laura:54:51
I, I agree. Hannah. I mentioned Agatha Christie because my book club just covered one of Agatha Christie's books and people had like really mixed reactions to it and it's because of the same thing, I think, and I honestly think that more of her work needs to have kind of the 50s. So things were a little different back then. And we said things differently. The language was different. And we need to be cognizant of that.
Hannah:55:21
I get that Christy might have been racist, but she is dead now. So you can continue to read some of her works.
Laura:55:27
Mm-hmm.
Lilly:55:28
Yeah. An annotated Agatha Christie, it's like, hey footnote, bummer.
Laura:55:33
Yeah.
Hannah:55:33
What a bummer. I want that in all my Agatha footnotes now. What a bummer.
Lilly:55:40
But that sort of. Hits on something that Sarah and I were talking about right before recording is, would I give this to a kid today? And I feel like not without supervision because of some of, not the language stuff so much as the like, really shitty gender things.
Hannah:55:56
Yeah,
Lilly:55:57
But it's a fun book, so like,
Hannah:55:59
I'm trying to think of how my, parents treated when I was reading books, because I know I started reading romance novels way before it was appropriate because I was just the youngest of my family. So like other people were reading those and like, I was kind of at a moment in time where I was like. Oh, I'm too old to read the books I was reading, but I don't know what to read next. And my mom was like, I enjoyed these books by Nora Roberts. I think they're good literature. Skip the dirty parts. And she just like, handed me a book. And like, I did skip them. But I'm like, wondering why my mom and I never had like a conversation after the fact of like, Hey, did you skip those parts? If you didn't, can we talk about it? Like there is a weird lack of supervision. I feel we got when we were younger that we don't have as much now.
Sara:56:42
I mean, my mother gave me all of those kinds of talks about the books I got the mom's five rules for sex when I was like seven.
Hannah:56:54
Oh fun.
Sara:56:56
like, so I got that really young. And I think consequently when she gave me those books, cause she gave me some pretty raunchy books or not books that were inherently raunchy, like they weren't erotica, but they had some pretty, pretty raunchy scenes in them. She was like, You, know my feelings on this we don't have to have this conversation about this book specifically because we've had it already. So I think that, if you're having those kinds of conversations in general, you don't necessarily need to have that conversation about a specific book,
Hannah:57:28
Yeah.
Sara:57:28
but With books like this that have aged in ways that are not necessarily great, but that are still good, enjoyable books, I think you do want to give the book with caveats, you know, but I also wouldn't be worried if I saw my child's reading this book, my hypothetical child, because I'm never going to have kids. But I think it is still a good book. It got some issues, but it's still a good book.
Lilly:58:01
I think there's a difference between Recommending a book that has maybe problematic themes versus like, I got into all sorts of stuff I shouldn't have been reading at the time. But I knew that, like, I knew that this was me doing something that I probably shouldn't be doing. So there was like, sort of a different energy. It wasn't like, a trusted adult saying, this is wonderful, you know?
Hannah:58:26
Yeah.
Laura:58:27
Yeah, I don't recall my parents ever, like, giving me books, honestly, or, like, kind of keeping tabs on what I was reading. It was more of just like a, oh, she's reading, thank goodness, we have a reader. And they didn't really monitor what I was reading, so I feel like as a kid, I did kind of get into books like this that had some of these outdated terms and things that maybe should have had, you know, some context brought up and some conversations, but I think it kind of goes back into what Sarah and Hannah, you mentioned it previously with like the Disney movie thing, like if you have a conversation either beforehand or afterwards, like, hey, what did you think of this book? I think that if you're covering your bases with that kind of thing, it's okay.
Hannah:59:09
yeah, and I guess that is like, there is a weird thing about raising children. I do not have children. I don't know how I feel about having children moment to moment, but like watching my sisters raise kids where like kids do want to read media that they know their parents read because like there's a weird, like mommy and daddy did it. So I want to do it too. So in that context, it's like, well. When they're growing up, you're also going to give them media that you recognize, like, I know I've purchased, the Magic Treehouse books for my nephews, and I know I've, gotten Murder Mystery ones, and I remember getting one of my nephews, like, the Horrible Henry books, and I hadn't read it, and he was like, I don't like that, that kid is mean, and I'm like, oh, Okay, that's helpful to know. So I do think kids like Sarah and Laura said, if you're raising them with the right conversations, they can pick up on it themselves. And they'll tell you, like, this felt weird. I didn't like Ahriman. Like if you actually are involved with what your kid is reading, and they're like, I don't like Ahriman. He seems mean, you know, you're like, Oh, okay, well, now I know. And it's it's a weird, Yeah. Like line to walk where it's like, I wouldn't mind them reading this book if they were like, what did you like reading when you were growing up mommy? And I was like, which, which I wouldn't feel like the worst person in the world for saying that was one of my favorite novels.
Lilly:1:00:20
No, I think just. Recommending a book with no, like, caveats, if you're coming from a position of authority, implies that everything in it is good and that you approve of it. And so I think it's that recommendation piece that I'm like, mm, you would want to say, like, something. I don't know.
Hannah:1:00:35
Yeah. It's hard Cause I, Laura, one of our best friends, like her kid loved the Pocahontas movie for a long time and he would singing the song. And she was like, yeah, he's like two. So like, how do you be like, that's not the best song, honey, it's always a growing conversation of like, yeah, you might love that, but there are caveats and you're a little white boy with blonde hair, screaming savages. Like you can't do that.
Lilly:1:01:00
Mm
Laura:1:01:01
I think that's interesting, though, Lily, that you bring that up. Like, the recommendations, like, seem like they're almost a stamp of approval. Like, I love everything about this book, and I feel that way even now when I read books. And I'll say that I enjoy them. If somebody says, Oh, would you recommend this? I'm always kind of, like, going at it from a standpoint of, I really liked it for these reasons. You might not like it because It's really just a fine line to walk, you know, because you don't know how somebody's gonna react to it and you may not have liked everything about a book.
Lilly:1:01:34
Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why, for this podcast, we specifically Phrased it as, who should read this book? Not like, do we recommend reading this book? Because readers are so different.
Laura:1:01:46
Mm hmm.
Hannah:1:01:47
Well, and I think that that's kind of just if you're going to be in a position of like what we do on a podcast where we look at things with a critical lens, like we all just went on a huge discussion of issues we found with this book, but we started off with like, I loved this book. I enjoyed it so much. And then it's like all of these things are you just knocking on it? And it's just like, well, yeah, but that's because both things can be true. You can fully enjoy a book while seeing like, every single issue in it or be like, well, that wasn't the best, but I at least liked it.
Lilly:1:02:16
I honestly love that though. There are some fandoms where you can't criticize them, otherwise the other people in the fandom attack you. Situations that will remain unnamed. There's like, we talk about Terry Pratchett, whom we love with every corner of our hearts, and still some of those books are not good. That's okay.
Sara:1:02:37
I mean, I think that there's this view in society in general, not just fandom in particular, where if you like something, you can't think critically about it. And that's just not true, right? Like, you can like something and criticize it, and your criticisms can be valid and insightful, and you can decide that you like it despite those things that you're criticizing. Like, it's not that you can't find issues with the things you like.
Laura:1:03:05
I will say one of the fandoms that I have noticed to be the most forgiving and have, like, the best sense of humor is the Twilight fandom. Those people love that series, they love the movies, they love it all, and they are so willing to make fun of it. They're so willing to take criticism of it and be like, yep, but I still like it. And I really appreciate that about All those fans, because like you guys have said, there's other people who, within different fandoms, are just like, No, this is a perfect text. I will hear nothing
Hannah:1:03:37
But also, that's just women learning how to be self deprecating because all of the things we like get shit on.
Laura:1:03:43
fair.
Hannah:1:03:44
But I do think that there's something to be said about like, it's the whole stamp of approval conversation where it's like, if you like something, you are approving the message of it. And that's not the same thing as like, liking a book or enjoying the time you had while reading it. Like, those are two different things. things. And I feel like sometimes people, again, with the whole, like, add context to the novel, people lack context with reviews. Or it's like, I'm writing a review in a moment in time. A review on any day of the week could be written differently by me based on how I'm feeling or what I'm focusing in on when I read a book. And so, like, I do think sometimes people get a little bit too harsh with people who are reviewing things being like, well, that means you like every single thing about it. And it's like, no, it doesn't. It means like I gave it a good review and I just felt like talking about the nice things instead of like all the mean things. So,
Lilly:1:04:35
Well, and to bring it back to this book. Like, I don't think there's any problems with it for an adult to read it. Because, you know, I'm a fully formed human and I'm not going to be influenced by weird subtext.
Hannah:1:04:48
yeah.
Sara:1:04:48
ha ha
Lilly:1:04:49
not this level of weird subtext.
Laura:1:04:51
We hope not.
Lilly:1:04:52
Yeah. And so it's like, I don't know, there's a different like, I don't know. I'm glad you guys liked it.
Hannah:1:04:59
Yeah,
Laura:1:04:59
I really liked it.
Hannah:1:05:00
it was very fun. It was just so fun to think about.
Laura:1:05:03
It was, like I said, an emotional rollercoaster, though, because one minute you're kind of laughing at what's happening, the next minute you're like, Oh my gosh, you just fell into a black hole? What? And then the next moment you're crying over worms. So I, I think that there's a lot of. Different ups and downs in this book.
Sara:1:05:23
This book has the range.
Lilly:1:05:24
Yeah.
Laura:1:05:25
Yes. Yes.
Hannah:1:05:26
I will say I did feel bad. For a lot of the women in this book where it's like, why were they so mean to that grocer? There has to be a reason, like, where he's like, I would rather live in a tree than spend another moment with my wife and daughter. I want them both to be dead before I leave, like,
Lilly:1:05:41
Yeah.
Laura:1:05:42
We needed more of the backstory.
Hannah:1:05:44
I loved that, like, it's a very humorous novel where they were like, well, their favorite thing to do was just be up on their father and husband.
Sara:1:05:52
I think that's one of those things where in the 80s and 90s and maybe even early 2000s, the henpecked wife was a funny joke, not something horrifying and abusive.
Lilly:1:06:05
Hen pecking.
Sara:1:06:06
Yeah.
Hannah:1:06:07
But I did love the trees energies when they're like, we didn't ask for this. Why are you doing this?
Lilly:1:06:12
Yeah,
Laura:1:06:13
Please, no.
Lilly:1:06:14
yeah, the spirits who are like, get them out of here.
Hannah:1:06:17
I do not want this. Thank you so much.
Sara:1:06:20
And then the one tree who's like, nah, he's cool. He just wants to, you know, sit and chill.
Hannah:1:06:25
his energy. We seem to match well.
Lilly:1:06:27
Good company, yeah. I loved, this book opens with Ahriman having the most kind, supportive parents on the face of the planet.
Hannah:1:06:38
Yes.
Sara:1:06:38
Who we never see ever
Lilly:1:06:40
no.
Hannah:1:06:41
Well, they know he didn't want to be around them. So
Lilly:1:06:43
Yeah. They go out and get books on dark magic, like, We have to raise our tiny terror right.
Hannah:1:06:49
They changed his name immediately. They were like, Oh, that's not going to match you. Totally. We 1000 percent support you. Here's a new name.
Lilly:1:06:58
Mm hmm. Yeah, that was like, aw. Good, parents.
Hannah:1:07:03
Didn't save them from having airman as a son, unfortunately, but
Lilly:1:07:06
Well, maybe they should have been a little more involved in the teen years.
Hannah:1:07:09
yeah.
Lilly:1:07:10
I feel like he just he found an incel forum when he moved out at 15 and had no one to rescue him.
Hannah:1:07:17
Well, he pretty much is the like the typical incel where it's like I've never met or spoken to a woman and therefore they're all disgusting.
Lilly:1:07:24
So, what would you tell our listeners what you podcast right now?
Hannah:1:07:31
So right now we are in our Indy mission. It's where we cover an Indy book with an Indy author. Right now we are reading K. E. Andrews, the Assassin of Grins and Secrets. And we're just finishing up the plot on that over on OWWR pod. That's O W W R pod. And next week we will have K. E. Andrews on the podcast to discuss the book. So that's exciting. And then we also have Travis Baldree coming on to discuss Legends and Lattes and his new book.
Laura:1:07:55
and Boondust.
Hannah:1:07:57
Thank you. I always say book dust and bone chops. So
Laura:1:08:01
and that's why I knew she said, and his new book, because she was
Hannah:1:08:04
every, I said it to his face and I will never live the shame down. But yeah, so head on over to our pod. com to see what else we have coming down the pipes, because we have a couple of like bonus content. We're not starting a new season until the new year. So we have a bunch of other stuff coming out. That's going to be a surprise for people. So
Lilly:1:08:21
Oh,
Sara:1:08:21
I'm really excited for your talk with Travis Baldry.
Laura:1:08:24
Travis was amazing.
Hannah:1:08:26
so nice. So
Laura:1:08:28
I've been, like, a huge fan for a while, and just to even get to talk to him, I was just so nervous, and I was really worried I was gonna, like, faint or something. So, it was so much fun.
Hannah:1:08:39
But thank you. So yeah, we can't wait for that episode to drop soon. So keep an eye out.
Sara:1:08:49
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Lilly:1:08:53
Come disagree with us. We are on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.
Sara:1:09:04
If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.
Lilly:1:09:12
We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find our show notes and a lot of other nonsense. Bye!
Sara:1:09:19
for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!
