Echoes of the Imperium by Nicholas and Olivia Atwater
- Fiction Fans
- 2 days ago
- 32 min read
Episode 215
Release Date: Nov 19, 2025
Your hosts read Echoes of the Imperium by Nicholas and Olivia Atwater, a book with airships and goblins and faerie politics that somehow did not click with Lilly. They discuss complex characters, thoughtful themes, and Goblin Court.
Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:
- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
Episode Transcript*
*this transcript is generated by Descript, please excuse the mess.
Lilly: 0:03
Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,
Sara: 0:09
And I am Sarah. And today we will be talking about Echoes of the Imperium by Nicholas and Olivia Atwater.
Lilly: 0:16
but before we get into that, our quick five minute introduction. Sarah, what is something good that happened recently?
Sara: 0:23
I spent the day, the other day cuddling on the couch with the terrors. They actually slept, they were quiet. They didn't, they didn't wrestle or play, fight with each other. They just slept on my lap the entire day. And it was very unusual and very nice.
Lilly: 0:44
You've finally gotten to the cuddle stage?
Sara: 0:47
No,'cause it hasn't been repeated since.
Lilly: 0:50
Well, okay, but they've cuddled so.
Sara: 0:54
This is a preview of what I can look forward to when they officially reach that stage.
Lilly: 0:59
Alright. My good thing is that I found some mystery soup in the freezer yesterday.
Sara: 1:05
Nice.
Lilly: 1:07
So I was like, sure, why not? I thought it, I'm pretty sure it's chicken and dumpling, like 99% sure. And it was good. So that was a fun little discovery.
Sara: 1:19
Always nice to have surprise soup.
Lilly: 1:21
Mm-hmm. What are you drinking today?
Sara: 1:24
I am drinking tea, which for once feels very relevant to the book.
Lilly: 1:28
This is such a tea book. There is, oh no. What was his name? Mr. Finch.
Sara: 1:34
Yes, I believe so.
Lilly: 1:35
The engineer on the boat that we're gonna talk quite more about in a minute. Absolutely obsessed with tea and for some reason did not realize that he could buy in, like, not indestructible, but non-frail teapots. No one told him, apparently
Sara: 1:51
Do non-frail teapots exist in this world?
Lilly: 1:55
you can make teapots outta metal.
Sara: 1:58
That's true.
Lilly: 1:59
Like it's not,
Sara: 2:00
probably is yes.
Lilly: 2:01
not that hard. Like, not that not hard, but like, that's not that unusual.
Sara: 2:06
No it's not. But we don't know if, if they do make teapots out of metal,
Lilly: 2:12
That would be a, an absolutely wild diversion or divergence, I should say. Considering,
Sara: 2:19
I.
Lilly: 2:20
I mean, this is a fantasy world, but it's not like that different from ours. They have tea like.
Sara: 2:27
Either way. Yes, you are correct. He probably should have one of those.
Lilly: 2:31
At least as a backup dude. Anyway, I am also drinking tea because obviously, but I'm even more on point, I'm drinking an oolong tea called Tieguanyun, which my understanding translates to the Iron Goddess of Mercy.
Sara: 2:48
I'm also drinking an oolong tea.
Lilly: 2:51
Oh, very nice. But yes, I thought that would be extra appropriate for the book,
Sara: 2:57
I do think it is very appropriate for the book
Lilly: 2:59
although I just brewed it. So I'm probably just going to be staring longingly at it, the whole recording and not actually drinking it because it's very hot still. And have you read anything extracurricular lately?
Sara: 3:11
I've been being good and reading solstice.
Lilly: 3:15
Good. Good for you. I have been reading this book'cause it is long.
Sara: 3:19
It is long. I actually was surprised at the length because I didn't know anything about it. When before we started I knew that it was goblins. It kind of is. There's, there's a goblin captain, but I didn't realize that it was so long.
Lilly: 3:34
I'm unclear. So we read eBooks and I don't know the word count, so I'm unclear if it is actually that, like that many pages or if it was just a slower read. But regardless, spent a lot of time reading this book. You mentioned goblins and I'm not sure where we got that from. It must have been in the description of the book or something.
Sara: 3:56
Yes, I'm pretty sure it's in the description of the book. But also I think that there is a quote on the cover. No, that doesn't say anything about goblins, but it was, it was either in the description of the book or in some of the description that I'd seen online.
Lilly: 4:12
That feels very misleading to me and counterproductive. This was much more of a fairy book than a goblin book. Hands down.
Sara: 4:22
Yes. So I don't know if I would call it misleading because the main character is a goblin.
Lilly: 4:28
have nothing to do with it.
Sara: 4:30
there. So the main character is a goblin. There is a goblin society that we see a little bit. I agree with you that it feels more like a fairy book because the goblin aspect is more incidental than than important.
Lilly: 4:46
Like this book is about fairies there. Like that's, it's the point, it's the plot. Every single character has an opinion. The main character is discriminated against for being a goblin. That's basically it.
Sara: 5:01
Yes.
Lilly: 5:02
There is half of a chapter, 60%, or if not more, through the book where we see other goblins. And so I just feel, feel like that's you're gonna get some mismatched readers if they pick up this book going, it's a goblin book and not it's a fairy book.
Sara: 5:18
I mean, I think that's probably mostly my fault for emphasizing the goblin aspect of it to you because that, that was what I thought about it. I knew that there was a goblin in character. Let
Lilly: 5:30
But it, I mean, that's also how it's described, so it's not like you made that up.
Sara: 5:35
I'm just looking up what the actual description says. I mean, the back uses the word goblin three times, but only as a description of
Lilly: 5:47
The captain.
Sara: 5:47
the captain. Yeah,
Lilly: 5:50
That's fair. I mean, he is a goblin. That's
Sara: 5:51
he, yeah, he is, he is a goblin. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't actually say anything about this being a goblin book, just.
Lilly: 5:57
It does say fairies though, right?
Sara: 5:59
It doesn't,
Lilly: 6:01
Sealy or whatever the
Sara: 6:03
no, it doesn't, it doesn't say anything about that
Lilly: 6:06
Really. See, okay. I, I, I'm back around. That is misleading. Oh.
Sara: 6:11
it, yeah, that, that genuinely was a surprise to me.
Lilly: 6:16
Which is fine. Fairies are neat. And then we also get the more conniving evil fairy, which I think is quite popular these days. So it's not, maybe not super remarkable, but it is the more interesting type of fairy
Sara: 6:31
Yeah.
Lilly: 6:32
than the, you know, Tolkien elf beautiful and perfect fairy. And that's not a non-sequitur. Tolkien elves are, and fairies are the same thing. Mythologically, elves and fairies are the same thing. Anyway, moving on. I am gonna have a hard time with this episode purely because I did not vibe with this book for absolutely no good reason.
Sara: 6:54
I know when you said that you weren't vibing with it, I was kind of surprised because I, I thought that you would enjoy it.
Lilly: 6:59
And I think that is. Part of the problem, or like, my issue is'cause I should have loved this book. And so all of my reasons are really petty and really stupid and not worth bringing up. Like,
Sara: 7:15
They're, they're very personal. Yes.
Lilly: 7:17
and it's not even, I can't even really point, I don't know, I'm not gonna defend why I disliked this or like, not dis not even disliked. It's a well done book and I can't defend it. It's just a weird mismatch. I don't know. But I do think because there were so many elements that I should have really liked, it made me harder on it overall because I was like, this is so close.
Sara: 7:41
Yes, this, I should want this.
Lilly: 7:43
Yeah. I, a part of it is the first person, it's the exact kind of first person that grates on me. And so it's like just a, a bad start when you get to the first page and you're like, oh no.
Sara: 7:55
Yeah, I mean, I, I didn't have any of those issues. I quite enjoyed the book. I did find it a little bit slow to start. It took me a minute to get into it, but once I was like, I don't know, maybe 15% of the way through I was fully on board.
Lilly: 8:11
Oh, see, once I was like, maybe 30%, 20 to 30%, I was like, okay, I am interested enough in the various mystery, not mysteries exactly, but the different plot hooks that have been set up that I want to know what happens next. And I am so not a plot driven reader that that is just a strange experience for me.
Sara: 8:35
But it does speak well of the book that even though you aren't a plot driven reader, you did want to know, you know, what happened next in the plot.
Lilly: 8:45
yes I did. And I mean, really well done. Yeah, I, not gonna re-litigate my issues with first person. I think that made the fight scenes really hard for me too, just personally, because every fight scene I was like, why are you just standing there and watching this happen? Oh my God, do something. Which is just because it's a first person narrator describing what, like he has to stop and describe it to us. That's just the limitation of the perspective.
Sara: 9:14
yeah. That is just what happens with first person.
Lilly: 9:17
But it did make me go for fuck's sake, help them.
Sara: 9:21
mean, to be, to be fair, he also had to like, stay at the helm of the ship and guide the ship.
Lilly: 9:27
He had a gun, he could have shot somebody. Anyway. Yeah. After like five pages of watching people get hurt, which that is purely just a mechanical issue with first person perspective. Not a downside of this book at all, except for me.
Sara: 9:43
Yes. Except for you.
Lilly: 9:45
And then the classic, who was he talking to? Who,
Sara: 9:51
Again, that's a, that's a you problem.
Lilly: 9:54
It's not just a me problem but I am more sensitive to it, like 70%, maybe not quite that far. Through the book. The narration suddenly says something along the lines of, I could explain it to you, but that would be rude. And I was like, oh, suddenly I'm here. Leave me out of it. Or don't do that suddenly over halfway through the book. But yeah, see, it's, it's petty bullshit like that, like not actually a problem with the novel. And so I just clashed with the whole thing and it, that was really, it's really unfortunate and unfair to this poor book.
Sara: 10:31
Yes, but I mean, I enjoyed it. I had a good time
Lilly: 10:35
Book. Yeah.
Sara: 10:36
part of that was that I always appreciate an Ace main character and William Blair's ace. It's not like he doesn't say that in the book, but it's implied heavily.
Lilly: 10:48
he does actually say it when they're encountering the, not exactly sirens, but basically sirens,
Sara: 10:57
Yeah, that, that's true. He, he does say that he didn't think that they would have any effect on him because he is not attracted to people like that.
Lilly: 11:05
Mm-hmm. And so until that point I was just kind of reading along my merry way. Yeah. He doesn't talk about being attracted to anyone, but he is surrounded by his crew and people trying to kill him, so that's fine. You know, could have just been circumstantial. So I think we needed that line to actually push it into yes, he is ace. Just not, just not around romantic interests,
Sara: 11:32
Yeah. Fair.
Lilly: 11:34
although I guess we could say he has to be ace, otherwise he would've had a romance shoehorned in,
Sara: 11:41
It does tend to happen.
Lilly: 11:43
Just, you know, because of how Book Logic works, not this book in particular, that's, that's not a a, a naysay on this novel, but.
Sara: 11:52
No, but I did enjoy that there wasn't a romance plot line. Like there's still romance. His first mate and the like priest on the ship are married and they're very cute together.
Lilly: 12:05
I mean, that's not even, I guess I shouldn't say that. A married couple isn't a romance.
Sara: 12:09
It's absolutely a romance. We don't, it's, it's not a romance plot line,
Lilly: 12:14
Yeah. But they're already together. We see some awkward flirting between a couple or not awkward, flirting, subtle and mostly off page flirting from a couple other characters.
Sara: 12:27
some of it is awkward, but like in intent, not, not intentional on the part of the characters, but just awkward in the way that. People flirting can be awkward.
Lilly: 12:37
Like blushing and, and bumbling and, and charmingly Awkward.
Sara: 12:42
Yeah.
Lilly: 12:43
Then there's the older couple, which I quite liked that inclusion. And I, they're not a couple, there's just some flirting. It's implied that they're kind of together a little bit.
Sara: 12:52
I didn't think it was implied that they were together. I thought it was implied that they liked each other. I,
Lilly: 12:57
Yeah. the issues that they have feel more like partnership issues and less like dating issues, I think. But that's also because they're crew on this boat together, so,
Sara: 13:07
yeah, I, I took that as more, they do have a partnership because they've been on this boat for a long time together. But they haven't actually been involved romantically, but they still know each other very well.
Lilly: 13:21
and so there's a tiny bit of romance just sprinkled in, barely there. Speaking of the boat, it's an airship.
Sara: 13:29
It is a very steampunk world steampunk, fantasy world,
Lilly: 13:33
I mean, technically it's not steam powered, but
Sara: 13:36
whatever. That's, that's the name of the genre. Not, not a description of the world, But no, it's not steam powered. It's, it's got magic coal
Lilly: 13:49
basically the ather. So despite this book being about the crew of a ship, very little sailing stuff in it, which I appreciated.
Sara: 14:02
Yeah. It doesn't there is a little bit of sailing stuff, but it's not overwhelming.
Lilly: 14:07
We do know that their ship has sails and not all ships do. Some of them are entirely ether powered, and that's about it. We never hear about rigging or knots or anything.
Sara: 14:18
No, we, we hear about people climbing the rigging or falling from the rigging like once or twice.
Lilly: 14:23
Yeah, but that's not like using the rigging to do boat stuff.
Sara: 14:26
No, it's, it's not,
Lilly: 14:28
There's very little boat stuff
Sara: 14:30
I think they fold up the sail at one point. Yeah. But it is like you say, it's, it's not as in your face as boat stuff sometimes is in books
Lilly: 14:42
Yeah. Which I don't hate the inclusion of boat stuff. It makes sense when it comes up, but considering we're calling it boat stuff, I think it's obvious that I'm not a boat person.
Sara: 14:53
you don't say.
Lilly: 14:54
so it's always lost on me and I kind of appreciated that this book was just like, nah, it's cool.
Sara: 15:00
Yeah.
Lilly: 15:01
You're here for a fantasy romp not to learn about sailors knots.
Sara: 15:06
Yeah. I, I do think that this book knows what it should focus on and knows that that is not the technicalities of sailing of ship.
Lilly: 15:16
Yeah,
Sara: 15:17
No one is reading it for an instruction manual.
Lilly: 15:20
the crew, oh
Sara: 15:22
we are reading it for a fun adventure with lots of interesting characters.
Lilly: 15:30
yeah. And the characters are all, All have not very different motivations, but different enough that it made them interesting and the interpersonal relationships very complex in a way that I appreciated.
Sara: 15:43
Yeah, I, I liked how they all had very different backgrounds and motivations but they were still able to come together to be a, a cohesive crew. But some of those different motivations do like, cause friction and tension between them.
Lilly: 16:02
It was nuanced, right? Like they could agree that their current, not just their current goal, but their main goal was most important, but that didn't mean that that overrides their other opinions and experiences,
Sara: 16:16
Yeah. And it's comprised essentially the cruise comprised of people who were on two different sides of a war and they still have. feelings about how the war ended. you know, what was right and and wrong during it and what everyone was doing during it. So it was, it was interesting. I, I really liked that aspect of it.
Lilly: 16:39
Me too. The way that this book handled war in general, I thought was pretty thoughtfully well done. I've obviously wore bad. That's not gonna shock many people, I don't think, but it does kind of delve into the conflict between war is bad. So what do you do when there's something worth fighting for?
Sara: 17:04
Yeah. And it's interesting because the main character was in the Navy of, well, he was in the Imperial Navy. And he was, granted, he was very young at the time. He was only 12, but he was very gung-ho about the navy, what the Imperial army was doing, what the, you know, the war that was going on and
Lilly: 17:26
12. He believed all the propaganda.
Sara: 17:29
Yeah, he was, he was 12. And you do see him grapple with that and with what it actually means to have gone to war and to kind of confront the propaganda. And I like that they don't, just that the at waters don't just kind of gloss over that.
Lilly: 17:48
Are they married? They
Sara: 17:49
Yes. They, they are married. No, they, they are married.
Lilly: 17:52
I don't think it matters. I just, when you see that on a book cover, I wonder. do have a lot of questions about writing a book together. Like did they do the every other chapter thing? I doubt it. I'm just curious.
Sara: 18:09
Yeah, I don't know what the logistics of it was like.
Lilly: 18:12
Well, who should read this book? Not Lily. That's not true. I'm, I'm glad I read it. I ultimately thought it was worth it. It just was a weird reading experience for me.
Sara: 18:26
yeah, I think that if you really enjoy fairy stories, but want one that is less focused on romance, because so many of these, like Faye stories these days are romantic. And this is definitely not that. So if you, if you like stories about the Faye want a cool steampunk setting, even though yes, it's magic and not actual steam
Lilly: 18:57
It's more Faye politics than Faye Re like interpersonal relationships
Sara: 19:02
Yeah.
Lilly: 19:03
there was still the, like, Faye can't lie. It was the Sealy versus the Unseelie was a little bit going on in there or a lot of bit going on in there, you know.
Sara: 19:13
yeah.
Lilly: 19:14
But it was that on a political scale instead of an in interpersonal scale, which is usually not my jam, but
Sara: 19:23
I think it really works for this novel.
Lilly: 19:25
it does, and it's such an interesting. Not take on Faye.'cause these are pretty, like the rules are there, right. That you recognize. And so looking at it from this angle I thought was new and interesting.
Sara: 19:40
it did. It did feel like an interesting thing to do with the Faye.
Lilly: 19:45
Yeah.
Sara: 19:46
And also there's a lot of fun action a really great diversity in the cast and the relationships between them. Just very well done.
Lilly: 19:56
Swashbuckling is a word that I feel like must be applied.
Sara: 20:00
It's very swashbuckling.
Lilly: 20:01
a lot of buckles that are s squashed like that. That is the vibe.
Sara: 20:06
Yes, this, the vibe of this book is definitely swashbuckling.
Lilly: 20:11
War or bad, but let's do some swashbuckling in between. But otherwise, yeah, I, I'd say like a good standard fantasy adventure. There's some intrigue. It's not surface level, like it's pretty thoughtful when it deals with things like pretty broad concepts as war bad. It doesn't just slap that on and go, okay, we're done here.
Sara: 20:35
Yeah. And I do also think that it's worth commenting that even though it is the first book in a series, I don't know how many books there are going to be. But I did feel that it could be read as a standalone novel. It feels like. has a very satisfying conclusion. And there is an epilogue that provides a hook for the next book. But like, if you're not, it's not one of those books where you get to the end and you're like, fuck, this is a cliffhanger and I'm mad about it.
Lilly: 21:07
Right. I really love the way that they handled that actually. And maybe it's just pedantic, but having the hook be in an epilogue instead of in the, like thrown into the last chapter of the novel makes it feel a lot better for me as a reader, I think.
Sara: 21:25
I agree. But I also think it has to do with the nature of the hook. Like I don't want to, I'm being very vague here because, this is still technically nons spoilers. But it, the ending of it was not an abrupt cliffhanger.
Lilly: 21:41
No, no, no. It, it was truly a hook, not a, this is an incomplete story,
Sara: 21:47
yeah,
Lilly: 21:48
but it wasn't introduced entirely out of left field. Like the elements that the AT Waters used for the hook was definitely something they had planted earlier.
Sara: 21:59
yeah. It, it felt like an appropriate inclusion. It was not, it was not a surprise or anything. but at the same time, it does feel like the book can stand on its own, just, you know, by itself.
Lilly: 22:13
which I really appreciated. I angst over a series sometimes just because, come on, write your story. And so I thought that this was like the perfect balance for that.
Sara: 22:26
Yeah, I agree. So if you're not sure that you want a series, that's okay. I think you can still read this book.
Lilly: 22:35
Interesting. Their website is olivia@water.com.
Sara: 22:39
She's the more famous author.
Lilly: 22:41
Oh, okay. believe you. Oh, she has a Regency fairytale series.
Sara: 22:46
Yes, she does.
Lilly: 22:48
I am trying to see if they have like how many books is supposed to be in the series? I can't find it.
Sara: 22:54
Mm. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
Lilly: 22:56
They have three books out and I can't find anything about the length of the series, although the third book, the cover is very different.
Sara: 23:06
I don't think they have, you mean they have more echoes of the Imperium books? I know that there's a, a novella, about will. That's like a prequel. A prequel, novella.
Lilly: 23:17
That's probably the one that looks out of place.
Sara: 23:19
But I don't think that like books too, like I don't think any, anything else in the series is out.
Lilly: 23:27
There is a book two listing on her website.
Sara: 23:30
I don't think it's out yet though.
Lilly: 23:32
Oh, it's 0.5 actually.
Sara: 23:34
Is that a matter of execution?
Lilly: 23:36
Yeah.
Sara: 23:37
Yeah, that's the I think that's the.
Lilly: 23:40
That. Well then what's the good, the bad And the goblin also looks like a prequel. Oh, it's an exclusive short story. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. this does not answer my question of. How many books they intend to have in the series if all of the next ones they've written take place before this one, I still have questions.
Sara: 23:58
No, I, I don't know how many books are intended to be in the series?
Lilly: 24:03
And that's the kind of open-ended thing that frustrates me about series, but not this one because I don't feel cheated out of a resolution.
Sara: 24:12
Yeah, I, there's, there's a resolution to this book. A very satisfying one.
Lilly: 24:17
Well, let's talk about it in a little more detail, shall we?
Sara: 24:20
Sounds good to me.
Lilly: 24:25
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Sara: 24:29
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Lilly: 24:35
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Sara: 24:42
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Lilly: 24:49
The remainder of this episode contains spoilers, So one thing that I noticed over and over again is that Will has terrible boundaries.
Sara: 25:03
he does. I mean, and to be fair, like he is, he mentions more than once that his first mate would be a better captain. We don't know why he's the captain and not his first mate, but he.
Lilly: 25:17
felt more just like bashful. Oh no. No. I couldn't to me, but that might have just been me being uncharitable,
Sara: 25:24
think that was you being a little uns charitable.
Lilly: 25:27
like, because we don't see Sam ever doing anything Capy. So it's like, what are you talking about?
Sara: 25:34
No, but we also don't actually see that much of Sam,
Lilly: 25:38
we see him getting mad at will
Sara: 25:40
deservedly so.
Lilly: 25:41
really? I was gonna say, the stuff he gets mad at him for or the when he gets mad at him for saying, I don't wanna bring a priest'cause I don't wanna believe my friend is dead. Was like really dumb reason to be mad.
Sara: 25:53
I don't think that it was the reasoning he was mad about. I think it was how he said it.
Lilly: 26:01
Fair. But still that being the maddest he gets was like, really? Okay.
Sara: 26:06
I mean, and also the priestess, his husband, like he, he took that as a kind of. In insult against his husband.
Lilly: 26:13
Sure. But that was still like, yeah. Anyway, will often has very good, perfectly professional reasons for why he does things then explains them in the most codependent way he possibly could. And I'm like my dude, for example when Acer McDougall wants to join, no McLean do, do, Douglas was the guy's first name, Dougle, no.
Sara: 26:44
McLeod, I think,
Lilly: 26:46
Not McLeod, was it?
Sara: 26:48
let me,
Lilly: 26:50
McLeod
Sara: 26:51
McLeod. Yeah, so I'm just pronouncing it poorly. But
Lilly: 26:55
and Dougle was the uncle's first name. Okay, so when Dougal's nephew, Acer wants to join the crew and Will thinks and maybe says out loud at first, you have zero combat experience. So no, he then goes on to say it's not what your uncle would've wanted, which obviously makes Acer very upset because he's an adult and said, uncle is dead and also not the captain of the boat. So why does what he want matter? And so it was just a really, really bad argument. And it's like, hey.
Sara: 27:33
will, will, does undermine his own arguments with things like that. But I did think that that was really relatable. He has a tendency to try to overexplain his reasoning to his detriment.
Lilly: 27:46
Absolutely. And that was something that I got a little confused by. So we get flashbacks in this book not, not like every other chapter, but pretty consistently. The main plot takes place when Will is the captain of the ship and,
Sara: 28:06
it is 20 years after the events and the flashbacks.
Lilly: 28:09
Yeah, I was gonna say, and someone's trying to take over the world, which I guess is not totally wrong. But so that's the present. And then flashbacks to 20 years ago right when the empire was destroyed and he's 12. And, just trying to like make his way in the world as a little kid with everything going wrong around him. And often he doesn't feel like he's been a captain for that long. Now he hasn't been a captain for 20 years, obviously because he was 12.
Sara: 28:39
Yeah. We don't actually know how long he's been captain, do we?
Lilly: 28:42
No, but we definitely hear the crew talking about all of the other adventures they've been on with him as captain. So we know it's not recent.
Sara: 28:52
right. We, we know it's not like six months or anything,
Lilly: 28:55
Yeah.
Sara: 28:57
but we also don't know if it's been, I don't know, three years or 10 years or
Lilly: 29:03
It's definitely, I would say definitely been years. Just they, they have routines. The way they talk about the, like, oh, those adventures in our past. It's certainly not a recent thing by any means.
Sara: 29:15
I, I don't think so.
Lilly: 29:17
And yet he often reacts to things as if he has zero experience at all, mostly with parlaying, with other authorities. And that felt strange to me because I was like, you're, this is not your first day as captain.
Sara: 29:31
what other authorities are you talking about?
Lilly: 29:34
well, the, the goblin court. But that didn't bother me because he doesn't, like, he's kind of out of his depth and feels like a imposter.
Sara: 29:41
Yeah, I, the, that
Lilly: 29:43
that made sense.
Sara: 29:44
behavior in, in that situation makes a lot of sense to me.
Lilly: 29:47
Still being intimidated by them though. I was like, eh, culturally, I get it. But, and then there were a few other times when he is talk, like when the, a captain of another ship is calling in and they're bantering about, oh, I'm gonna get you. And he's like, no, we're gonna get you. He always is like stumbling over his words and feeling suddenly nervous. And it's like, really? You've definitely done this before. Let me find the actual one that I commented. Mm, no, the only one that I actually pulled out was the goblin court, but my comment was he keeps reacting to things like a newbie, but that's not helpful.
Sara: 30:24
No
Lilly: 30:25
Although speaking of, I loved the Goblin court scene.
Sara: 30:28
The goblin court was really interesting. I wanted more of it and I'm really interested to see how the promise that he makes comes back to bite him in the butt,
Lilly: 30:42
Yeah.
Sara: 30:43
because surely that's going to be something that comes up in, in one of the next books.
Lilly: 30:49
I also really liked his interaction with the like goblin steward, basically that the Port Authority had. Him using their shared background to ingratiate himself and kind of smooth over any of the problems with their paperwork that might have been found or more distract the goblin from finding them. Really?
Sara: 31:11
I, I thought that was good. And we don't see a lot of him interacting with other goblins, so it was a nice change of pace too.
Lilly: 31:20
No. There, there's no other goblins in the book other than that one scene, and we always see him acting as posh as possible, which makes sense. He, he has clearly put effort into this version of himself, right? He talks about the ship doctor's poetry and, and how he has put work into losing his old accent and things like that. Then how awkward it is for him and how he feels like he's faking it when he does sort of bring back the, the slang from his childhood neighborhood. so I thought that was all very good, but I wanted more of it.
Sara: 31:56
Yes. Yeah, I, I think I feel the same way. I, really enjoyed it. And I wish that there had been more of, that aspect of the book in particular because it is really fascinating to see him grapple with the effects of this kind of assimilation that he's done.
Lilly: 32:16
Well, for as much as I argued that this is a fairy book and I stand by that, there's also only one fairy character
Sara: 32:24
Yeah. When we don't actually see that many fairies. There is the one character on the ship. She is half navigator, half just kind of there. For most of the book. But she's got a great arc.
Lilly: 32:40
Well, and despite fairies not showing up on the page that much, they are so influential to the novel itself because we find out that the fairies created mortal species as cannon fodder basically in the war against the Unseelie or Sealy versus Unseelie. That whole thing and that element of classism basically, The fairies have set themselves up as deities and the betrayal to find out how much truly they are exploiting the mortal people. And because there's a couple of different races, we meet humans, goblins and nisar, I believe is the word for hobbit in this book.
Sara: 33:28
Yeah.
Lilly: 33:29
So that I thought was very well done. It also introduces a little bit of conversation around religion there are a few moments where our main character appreciates how their religion can still have benefits and good even if the institution itself is rotten, which doesn't get gone into very thoroughly, but I, I thought was a really nice element to bring to it.
Sara: 33:57
Yeah, it's there kind of on the sideline a little bit.
Lilly: 34:00
Yeah. Well, because the Evie is the boat's, like you said, the priest, he follows the God of mercy and how do you reconcile loving your friend and loving what he does with Oh, except his God wants us to all die.
Sara: 34:18
Yeah,
Lilly: 34:18
And that's, that's complicated.
Sara: 34:21
it's very complicated.
Lilly: 34:22
And this book doesn't like tackle it head on, but I, I thought that the considerations it makes around that was very well done.
Sara: 34:30
Yeah, I agree.
Lilly: 34:31
And Cyrene, the, the fairy character that we do have has the best arc in the whole book.
Sara: 34:38
Absolutely.
Lilly: 34:40
She is pretty badass. I mean she is not a really a mortal creature. She's made out of wood. She kind of molds with the boat, which is pretty cool. I did wonder like if she's part of the boat and they can talk to her at any point, does that mean she can hear them? And that is addressed near the end,
Sara: 34:58
That that is addressed and she can indeed hear them.
Lilly: 35:02
Yes, and she saves their asses quite a few times'cause she's this, you know, magical demigod. She's not one of the four fairy gods. And the difference between a fairy and one of the gods is not truly explained. There's some kind of hierarchy.
Sara: 35:21
Yeah. We don't actually see a lot of the fairy like society. We just kind of see its impact on the world in which the crew resides. So it's, it's more we're kind of filling in the, the negative space.
Lilly: 35:40
Yeah. And Cyrene came to the boat with Strahl, who is the boson, and I don't know what that means. He does something on the boat.
Sara: 35:51
He, he shouts orders that the captain gives. Beyond that, I, I couldn't tell you. I
Lilly: 35:58
He supervises the other members of the ship's deck department.
Sara: 36:02
Okay. So he's like a manager?
Lilly: 36:06
Yeah, he's a, he's middle management on this boat,
Sara: 36:09
he's middle management.
Lilly: 36:12
and so yeah, his job is to just say what the CEO says, but louder. And they have some kind of bond. They get picked up together before this book starts. They've been part of the crew for a while. no idea how long, but I, I feel like it's implied that it's been years, like years.
Sara: 36:31
Yeah, I, I agree that it's been implied that it's years, but it is quite ambiguous. But either way, they've been part of the crew for a while. They were picked up together. We don't really know anything at the start of the story. We don't really know anything about their backstory. We just know or will, just knows that straw was probably high up in the empire because of some context clues. But we, it's, it's, who knows? I mean, we do, we do find out later, but.
Lilly: 37:02
but like everyone else on the boat, he just has to say and believe that it's a good thing that the empire fell. That's the only thing will needs from his crew. And which is why he has sort of made this hodgepodge of people from both sides of that conflict. But that ultimately decided it's a good thing that the empire fell, I, again, I mean, we already said how good and complex that made the interpersonal relationships, but I'm gonna say it again
Sara: 37:31
Yeah. And I was really concerned when the, when the story started and Cyrene was introduced, I was really concerned that she was just going to be kind of a get out of jail free card for the crew. Because she is so overpowered, there aren't actually a lot of ferries in the world interacting. So it's not like ferries are on every ship. And she has such strong abilities that yeah, I, I was worried that it would make things too easy. For, you know, the plot and the crew, but it turns out that straw is actually the Imperial Prince or whatever. He's, he's the heir to the empire. She was his, I'm gonna call it Guardian. I don't know if that's really the right description. They said Envoy, like she was some kind of political emissary.
Lilly: 38:30
And she had made some kind of oath because oaths are a very big deal, a magically big deal in this world to protect him clearly. And so after he was like, I'm so glad that the empire's gone. We're gonna go beep not pirates, because they're on the right side of the law most of the time.
Sara: 38:50
They're they're semi-legal smugglers.
Lilly: 38:54
well, they didn't know they were smuggling.
Sara: 38:56
No, they absolute, they absolutely knew they were smuggling. They, they didn't know what it was. They were smuggling, but they knew they were smuggling something.
Lilly: 39:04
They were just transporting it. Not all transporters are smugglers.
Sara: 39:08
Okay. But they, they knew that like something was up with it.
Lilly: 39:13
Yeah, that doesn't make it illegal. They're taking it to the mayor. They went to the regular ass dock. They weren't like trying to hide it.
Sara: 39:21
Okay. Fair?
Lilly: 39:22
But I mean, maybe they, they operate in a gray area. They've clearly been in trouble with the law in some places before.
Sara: 39:28
Yeah.
Lilly: 39:29
And so she just kind of goes along with straw, who is like, yeah, it's a great thing that the empire fell, fuck the empire. And then we find out that she does not think that at all. And so when the big bad shows up and is clearly trying to revive the empire, she basically switches sides. I mean, her goal is to save straw first and foremost because he has been kidnapped and is in great trouble. But, That's just, it's incidental that that happens to also be what the crew wants to do.
Sara: 40:00
yeah, I, I love how, you know, we get to kind of right before the climax of the book and there are these two very different motivations for going after Straw and between like the, you know, the captain and, and Cyrene will and Cyrene and they overlap but will acknowledges privately well and also to, to the crew that they might not always overlap. And so that's a lot of really great tension in the novel. And then. We get to a point in the battle where the ghost of the emperor tells Cyrene, yeah, stop protecting my son. And she does, and she turns on them and it's, it's great. it, was really good.
Lilly: 40:52
that was such an important moment for me as the reader because even before then, when Will was talking about how they might have to turn on Cyrene, that was still conflicted for me
Sara: 41:04
Mm-hmm.
Lilly: 41:05
at that point, yeah, she's on the side of the empire, which is why she wants to save straw and they are on the side of
Sara: 41:13
Fuck the Empire.
Lilly: 41:15
But we haven't given up on straw yet. I like, that's still like a, a complicated, you can kind of see both sides sort of thing. Well, I can't see why she wants to revive the empire, but she's a, she's a true believer. She had been with straw this whole time, truly just to take care of him and be there for him. And so then when she betrays him, there is no conflict anymore. It's like, yeah, do what needs to be done. It's no longer fraught. But in a way that I liked as complex as the relationships and motivations are, I liked having that be clear.
Sara: 41:54
Yeah. Yeah. It, it doesn't take away from the complexity, but it does make you feel less bad.
Lilly: 42:02
Yeah. It, it made reading it not stressful,
Sara: 42:05
Yes.
Lilly: 42:07
because Cyrenes only redeeming quality has been how much she cares for straw, especially when. Will confronts her earlier on, and she's basically like, all mortals are like bugs you deserve to die. It's what you're made for, blah, blah, blah.
Sara: 42:23
Yeah, I, I don't care about the genocide that took place in pal, you know, this city that is completely destroyed by the Empire. That's, that's what you guys are here for.
Lilly: 42:34
Yeah. And so she's pretty awful, but it's, but she still cares about straw, that's the one thing she's got going for her. So yeah, that was her arc and my opinion about her going through those changes in like the last quarter of the book. There quite a bit happens at the end, but that was really nice. And then it also made it more powerful when Will gives her a chance at the end. Right. Yeah.
Sara: 43:01
Yeah. And, and she does redeem herself. She does end up breaking her oath, and we don't really know how that's going to play out in the future. Because oath breaking is almost a tangible thing in this universe. You can feel the, the
Lilly: 43:19
Bad vibes
Sara: 43:20
remnants of the, of the broken oath. Yeah. You can feel the bad vibes from people who have, broken their oaths.
Lilly: 43:26
and they say it's even more powerful for a Sealy who has done it
Sara: 43:30
yeah,
Lilly: 43:31
during that final confrontation. I just kept thinking that in some alternate universe, this book has straw as the main character.
Sara: 43:41
absolutely. There is absolutely a version of this novel where straw is the main character hiding his identity. From the crew and the captain. And that's like the main conflict in the first bit of the book.
Lilly: 43:54
Mm-hmm. Getting kidnapped, struggling with, well, we need the empire in order to fight back against the unseelie. That whole conflict, we get a, a snippet of it because there is the interlude from his perspective,
Sara: 44:07
Yeah.
Lilly: 44:08
Just the, the single chapter. And so anyway, it's a different book because it's the Lost Prince instead of scrappy goblin captain.
Sara: 44:18
Yeah, it's a, it's a very different book, but I do think that it's interesting, like you can't, I feel like you can't always say that about a story that there is so clearly another character who could be the main character. So it's just interesting. I don't know. I, I find it interesting.
Lilly: 44:38
But I also liked that it, it wasn't like, how do I say this? It didn't feel like it was trying to make a point either.
Sara: 44:50
Yeah.
Lilly: 44:52
It wasn't all setting up. Oh. But Straw was actually the Prince and Will Is isn't the main character. He just thought, he was like, there's none of that happening.
Sara: 45:01
no, no. Will is genuinely the main character.
Lilly: 45:04
he is, it's not a smokescreen or a, a diversion or a gotcha. In any way.
Sara: 45:10
Yeah. Yeah.
Lilly: 45:10
And it didn't feel like. I don't know. I'm just gonna throw Sherlock Holmes out there as an example that the, you know, where the narrator is not the main character, they're just the one telling the story. Will is not just telling straw's story.
Sara: 45:24
No,
Lilly: 45:25
Yeah.
Sara: 45:26
no. Like the, the story is definitely about will and the fact that Straw has main character energy is also just kind of incidental.
Lilly: 45:36
yes, and he honestly is just something else for Will to grapple with in, in sort of trying to reconcile his past as part of the empire and the horrible things he condoned, although didn't participate in,'cause again, he was a child,
Sara: 45:53
Yeah.
Lilly: 45:54
which I have to assume Holloway sat him down and shook him about at some point.
Sara: 46:00
I probably, I don't know if it took,
Lilly: 46:03
And clearly it did not take, he feels way too much guilt to have conscripted when he was 12. I guess he probably joined even earlier, maybe. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I, this book does a lot of things really well.
Sara: 46:18
Yeah, I, I quite enjoyed it. I'm sorry you didn't have as good a time with it, but It does, it does do a lot of stuff really well.
Lilly: 46:27
it does, it's a little baffling to me. No one should take my I mean, I think that just goes to show that a book is not always gonna vibe with a, its readers, no matter how good it sounds on paper. I guess a whole book is on paper.
Sara: 46:41
Yeah. I
Lilly: 46:42
know what I mean?
Sara: 46:43
you can, you can have a book that has all of the elements you enjoy is really well done and still ends up not being for you. That happens.
Lilly: 46:53
Yeah.
Sara: 46:55
And sometimes it's about the timing of when you read it. Sometimes it's about other things. Sometimes it's just, you know what it is.
Lilly: 47:03
Mm-hmm. So no one, take my word for it. If, if what we talked about sounded interesting, you should still go read it and don't listen to me.
Sara: 47:13
I mean, but like you're not, you're not saying that it was a bad book, you're just saying that it wasn't for you, which is legitimate. A legitimate thing to say.
Lilly: 47:22
It's, but sometimes things are not for me in a way that like might then also not be for another reader, you
Sara: 47:29
Yeah. Yeah.
Lilly: 47:31
In this case I don't, yeah. I can't really pinpoint. What it was. Part of it was the pacing. I will say the flashbacks didn't really work for me. I liked the content and the way they were trying to mirror, like what was happening in both time periods. But basically every time I got into the plot, it flashed back and I was like, well, now I'm out of it again.
Sara: 47:53
Yeah, I, I did find the flashbacks, like you, I liked the content of them but they did take me out of what was going on in the, in the present day.
Lilly: 48:05
And if I had clicked with the book more, it probably wouldn't have mattered. But because I was struggling getting yanked out of my momentum, every chapter or so was just rough.
Sara: 48:16
Yeah.
Lilly: 48:18
But like, again, the flashbacks were good. I think every like individual element of this book. Was well done within the chapters. I was like, yes, I want to know what happens next. And then every time it transitioned it just like yanked me out of it somehow. It was like really strange. I don't know. I don't know what it was.
Sara: 48:37
Yeah, I, I can't help you there. But I think you're right that this is not a problem that most readers would have. It's not a problem. I had
Lilly: 48:46
yeah, it's not a problem you had. I'm fascinated to know if that, if this has happened to other people. So maybe there is something there. Or maybe I am just having a bad day. I don't know. You know, not a bad day. It took me more than one day to read this, but
Sara: 49:02
a bad week.
Lilly: 49:03
yeah, like I really want feedback, but it's a hard thing to take a poll on. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.
Sara: 49:16
Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.
Lilly: 49:27
If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.
Sara: 49:33
We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.
Lilly: 49:39
Thanks again for listening, and may your empire always be defeated. Bye.
