Even Though I Knew the End by C. L. Polk

Episode 122

Release Date: January 10, 2024

Your hosts absolutely loved the film noir, lesbian novella Even Though I Knew the End by C.L. Polk, which you can tell by how distracted they get and how much they argue over vaguely related topics. They throw out a few comparisons, some more justified than others. Your hosts also discuss how expectations can change how readers feel about an ending (and then argue over their personal emotions surrounding the ending of this book).

Find us on discord: https://discord.gg/dpNHTWVu6b or support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/fictionfanspod

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris” - Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

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Episode Transcript*

*this transcript is AI generated, please excuse the mess.

Lilly: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara: 0:11

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly: 0:11

And tonight we'll be discussing Even Though I Knew the End by C. L. Polk. But first, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara: 0:20

Something great that happened recently, so it worked! In the same like general organization that I am in or like division, but basically not me at all. This is like a sister organization, not even the people I work with. Right. But we're, I guess, headed by the same head honcho at some level. They just finished this, like the rollout of this really. project, which has taken a long time. They've spent a lot of effort. It's been very difficult. They've had to do a lot of work on it. And so as a thank you, the head honcho says, everyone in my organization, which includes me, get three extra days off at Thanksgiving. So I did zero work and get 100 percent of the benefit.

Lilly: 1:04

fantastic!

Sara: 1:06

Yeah.

Lilly: 1:07

get the full week?

Sara: 1:08

I get the full week. Mm hmm.

Lilly: 1:10

awesome.

Sara: 1:10

Yeah, and when I first got the email I was like, they probably don't mean us, because we had nothing to do with this project. And then my boss confirmed today that yes, they mean us too.

Lilly: 1:24

That's so good. Are you going to come up to Seattle for the first half of your Thanksgiving break?

Sara: 1:28

I am not planning on it, but I could look at, I could, I could look at, uh, flights.

Lilly: 1:34

Travel probably sucks then, so I'm not going to hold you to that.

Sara: 1:38

Travel probably does suck. And I do have a very expensive vet bill that will be happening like three weeks later.

Lilly: 1:45

Well, this weekend, we are going to be recording a Nostalgia Book Club episode with Our Pod on Wednesdays We Read, which is not my good thing because it has not happened yet, however, when we were planning it, Which book we were gonna do next. I think it was Hannah's book.

Sara: 2:04

Yes, it was Hannah's suggestion.

Lilly: 2:06

And I looked it up on my library app in the moment and saw that it was available to borrow from the library. So I was like, great, I'm all set. And then, a little while ago, I looked it back up and discovered that someone else had rented it and now there was a wait of like four weeks or something. It was ridiculously long. I was first in line. I put a hold on it. I was first in line. But, technically, they had until after the recording date to finish reading it. And I was like, I spent too much time teasing Sarah about having to buy this book.

Sara: 2:41

I

Lilly: 2:42

For me to have to buy this book.

Sara: 2:45

looked on my library, like, Libby app, and I am a member of two libraries, and neither of them had it. I was so mad. I spent five dollars on this stupid book. It was terrible. Sorry, Hannah. I mean, it was terrible in a fun way, but

Lilly: 3:00

I'm actually really excited to read it.

Sara: 3:02

it was, it was not great. I, uh, it only took an hour to read. That was a, that was a good thing

Lilly: 3:08

Well, hold your thoughts for Hour Pod. Don't blow your load now. But I was so smug! And then I couldn't! So I put the hold on and I was like, I'm going to wait. I'm not gonna buy this book until the absolute last second. And voila! I think it was Late last night or early this morning.

Sara: 3:29

It was late last night because you texted me last

Lilly: 3:31

Yeah, there you go. Which is 72 hours before recording? Roughly. I'm not gonna actually do the math. It became available about a week before it said it could. So I don't have to buy the book now.

Sara: 3:43

Angels were truly watching over you in that moment.

Lilly: 3:47

Something was.

Sara: 3:48

I say because that's a main plot point of this book somehow. I think that's even the title, Angels Watching Over Me.

Lilly: 3:55

I was gonna say. It's by Lurleen something? Hold on, I wanna

Sara: 4:00

McDaniels, and the title does involve angels, and I'm pretty sure it involves the word watching.

Lilly: 4:06

Angels Watching Over Me by Lurleen McDaniel. Delightfully, it is right next to BOOKS OF BLOOD by Clive Barker in my library app.

Sara: 4:17

I do like that juxtaposition.

Lilly: 4:19

I hope I confused the algorithm.

Sara: 4:21

I'm sure you will. I've not read any Clive Barker, but you've talked plenty about him, and from what I can tell, they're very different.

Lilly: 4:29

Well, I'm a mystery wrapped in an enigma. Also, I do a podcast about books, so I read weird books. Anyway, what are you drinking tonight?

Sara: 4:38

I poured myself a glass of whiskey because this book calls for a glass of whiskey.

Lilly: 4:42

Ah, cheers, doll. So did I. Specifically, a slug of whiskey, I should say.

Sara: 4:48

I did say glass and not dram because

Lilly: 4:51

This should be bourbon, really.

Sara: 4:53

It should be, but dram didn't seem like the right word for this, for this book.

Lilly: 4:58

No, not at all. This is a slug of bourbon, not a dram of scotch, excuse you.

Sara: 5:05

Well, it could be a glass of whiskey.

Lilly: 5:06

Not according to this book.

Sara: 5:09

It's not, those are not the words specifically mentioned in this book, no. But I don't think a glass of whiskey would be out of place vocabulary.

Lilly: 5:16

Fair enough.

Sara: 5:17

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

Lilly: 5:19

I'm not arguing with you, but we should definitely get into this later, because have you read anything good lately other than Angels Watching Over Me by Larlene McDaniel?

Sara: 5:29

I wouldn't really call that good. Although I was very glad when it was over. No, I have not. It's been like two days since we last recorded. I've just been doing podcast reading.

Lilly: 5:41

I was gonna say, I've read this book, and the fact that I read this book in time is honestly a miracle.

Sara: 5:46

It's also very short, which is why we picked it.

Lilly: 5:49

That was why we picked it, but holy shit, I'm glad we did. What the fuck, Sarah? Like, talk about The Dark Horse coming in and being my favorite book of the year. I'm not saying it is, but it's definitely a contender.

Sara: 6:02

Yeah, I thought that I would like it. So I'd heard about this, you know, when it was first coming out. I actually won an advance copy of it. Tor. com does occasional, like, retweet and you could win an ARC. And I won for once. And then it sat on my shelf and I didn't read it because we, we do a podcast, and all of my reading, or much of my reading is dictated by the podcast.

Lilly: 6:27

And then we needed to slam four recordings into one week and said, what's the shortest book we both own?

Sara: 6:35

we, we were, we were looking to, we had something longer on the schedule, but I was like, there's no way we're gonna read it, not if we're doing four recordings in one week. I have this ARC, and I also bought a used copy of the book from my local bookstore. Because it was there, it was 10, it was in really nice condition. I know, we should read this book. I think Lily will probably like it. It seems like it would be up her alley. And so that's how we chose it.

Lilly: 7:01

Goddamn, was it up my alley. Sarah, do you know my reading tastes after doing a podcast together for like three years or something?

Sara: 7:10

Yeah, but I still usually manage to pick books you hate.

Lilly: 7:13

Yeah, but usually it's on purpose.

Sara: 7:15

That's true.

Lilly: 7:17

This is gonna be our shortest episode in all of history, because I loved this book so much. 100 percent perfect. No notes.

Sara: 7:26

Yeah, it's actually really hard to record a podcast about something you love that

Lilly: 7:32

I just, I feel gross and mushy. No one wants to hear about how much I love my husband. No one wants to hear about how much I loved this book.

Sara: 7:41

I feel like that's the kind of thing that works better in a written format.

Lilly: 7:44

Maybe. Because you can just skip the chunks where you're like, I get it.

Sara: 7:48

Yes.

Lilly: 7:49

right, I'm saying this now. Listener, if you want to just fast forward because we're getting too gushy, feel free. No hard feelings.

Sara: 7:56

But for those of you who do want to listen to us gush about this book, Lily, what are some of the things that you particularly loved?

Lilly: 8:03

Okay, right off the bat, the first thing I noticed is that there was period slang that did not feel intrusive. So this book does take place in the 40s, I believe?

Sara: 8:14

I was gonna say 30s.

Lilly: 8:16

It's after Prohibition. That's all I know.

Sara: 8:19

This is not telling me.

Lilly: 8:20

Well, I'm just gonna Google Film Noir. 1940s.

Sara: 8:24

So you are correct. 1941.

Lilly: 8:26

Yeah. But I got the vibes. Girl, I can read vibes. It takes place in the 40s. It has, obviously, a very strong film noir influence. I think that's part of the description of the novel, on like, now I have your old arc. So it has like, the back of the book is all of the marketing copy. And it definitely has period appropriate slang, but it's not intrusive or obnoxious.

Sara: 8:52

It's not in your face making sure you know that it's using period appropriate slang.

Lilly: 8:57

Yeah, I think the moment that I wrote down in particular, although it's throughout the whole book, was Well, I'd have to shake a leg to make it there in time. And I did make a funny voice because it was film noir. So you have to say, you have to do the funny voice for film noir. And that like, it's a phrase that's completely familiar and common to me, but used in a way that I'm like, oh. That's period slang. I don't know. Something about that just like fit so perfectly that I had to note it down. And then the whole book continues. It's a novella. This book is so short. But the whole story like kept that. Like, there's some doll, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. But none of it took me out of the story and made me go,

Sara: 9:43

I mean, you really don't feel like Polk is trying to, I don't know, make you feel that a lot of research went into it, even though it probably did. Does that make sense? I mean, that is a compliment.

Lilly: 9:55

it felt natural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it felt natural, for sure. It felt like this is how this person spoke, not, this author really wants to make sure that I know that they know how people spoke in the 1940s. The next thing I loved about this book was how mean it was to lesbians. Now hear me out. Obviously, I said that in a silly way to be dramatic, but this book is very sapphic, but like has period appropriate issues for someone trying to live in a same sex relationship in Chicago in the 1940s. Again, it all felt so natural that I'm sure there must have been so much research.

Sara: 10:36

Yeah. And I would just have one kind of trigger warning because there is some talk of conversion therapy that not the main character or her love interest go through but that, you know, acquaintances go through and that

Lilly: 10:51

Exists.

Sara: 10:52

Yeah, and, and that exists, and that women in that period, gay people in that period, suffered from. So it doesn't shy away from the harder aspects of having a sapphic relationship in the 1940s.

Lilly: 11:05

Yeah, I mean, our main character, Helen, is in a committed long term relationship. They have to go to Well, I'm a 20s bitch, so I'm gonna use the phrase speakeasy. A speakeasy, but for lesbianism instead of for alcohol.

Sara: 11:21

Although alcohol was served, of course.

Lilly: 11:24

Yeah, but it wasn't like, the secret wasn't the booze.

Sara: 11:27

Yes.

Lilly: 11:28

The secret was the boobs. Sorry, I couldn't avoid that pun.

Sara: 11:32

I mean, you had

Lilly: 11:33

to.

Sara: 11:33

it's true.

Lilly: 11:35

There's a, a moment. Let me know if you think this needs to be cut. It happens later in the book. Our main character and her committed relationship goes to a cafe. And they both put on wedding rings. So they look like they're just wives who happen to be friends.

Sara: 11:51

Yeah, they have this whole cover story about how they are two wives who are friends, but one of them, I think, Helen, or one of them like moved away, so they catch up every Sunday, you know. It's, they're just, they're just friends.

Lilly: 12:08

They have constructed an entire fake life in order to have a regular spot at a bar or cafe, I guess.

Sara: 12:15

Diner.

Lilly: 12:16

Yeah. And like, the waitress knows them, and it's supposed to be cute. I mean, not supposed to be. Obviously, the book is signaling, like, this is horrifying. We did not read this for spooky month, but it super fits. I have to say, part of why I loved this book might have just been the place I was at while I read it. Obviously, it's also a very good book, but like, I was feeling crappy, just like physically, from, you know, vaccine whiplash or whatever it's supposed to be called.

Sara: 12:46

Side

Lilly: 12:47

Yeah, it's going into fall, so the weather has been super moody.

Sara: 12:51

God, I wish the weather was moody here.

Lilly: 12:54

It's super cold, so I was under like two blankets and a couple of cats. Like, just the situation in which I read this book was so perfect. Which definitely helps.

Sara: 13:05

It's, so, this is not a cozy book. Right? It's not a cozy fantasy, or anything of the sort. But it is a cozy weather book, I think.

Lilly: 13:15

would say it's a moody weather book.

Sara: 13:18

Okay, moody, moody weather, cozy weather.

Lilly: 13:21

the same thing with a different flavor.

Sara: 13:22

I think they're very similar.

Lilly: 13:24

it's the exact same weather. It's how do you choose to cope with it.

Sara: 13:30

Yes.

Lilly: 13:31

A thunderstorm could be both cozy or moody, depending on where you're at.

Sara: 13:36

That is, that is very true. But this is the perfect kind of book to read with that fall weather. Or even not with that fall weather, because it's really, really hot here right now. And it's still a good book.

Lilly: 13:50

Oh yeah, I don't want to imply that I only liked it, because I was in a perfect place to enjoy it, but I think it struck me so hard because of that, you know?

Sara: 13:59

I mean, that definitely helps, right? Like, the feeling that you have while you're reading a book because of things external to the book absolutely affects one's enjoyment of what you're reading.

Lilly: 14:11

Well, Helen would say that the moon was in the right hour, and all of the planets were in the right positions, because she is a magical astrologer. And she would say that I was just in the right place in the right time.

Sara: 14:25

guess so.

Lilly: 14:26

Anyway, so we have our period appropriate sapphic woes. That was handled very well, and kind of led into the general mood of the book. Even when you have a very healthy relationship, it can't be. I don't want to say it can't be healthy, but there are issues because of society.

Sara: 14:46

Yeah, I mean, the relationship is healthy, but that doesn't mean that everything is great because they're forced to hide their relationship.

Lilly: 14:54

And that's part of what makes it so sad. And the vibes of this book were so sad and so beautiful and I loved them so much and I was so grouchy and this was exactly what I needed to read.

Sara: 15:09

You're welcome, I'm glad you liked my choice of book.

Lilly: 15:12

we never could have planned this so perfectly.

Sara: 15:17

We couldn't.

Lilly: 15:18

No.

Sara: 15:19

was very good timing.

Lilly: 15:20

Oh my God.

Sara: 15:21

Very lucky timing.

Lilly: 15:22

Okay, so beyond the vibes, I would say actually, as far as technical skill, the best thing that Polk does is the pacing of information. This is a mystery. It's a film noir. We're trying to discover what is happening. There's a murder, there are questions,

Sara: 15:43

There's a lot of murders.

Lilly: 15:44

there well, yeah. It starts with one, though. Helen is, I would call, A supernatural private eye. That feels right. And I feel like for the first two chapters of this book, and again, this is a novella, so one chapter is like three pages long, each sentence revealed exactly one thing to me. Like, so perfectly. It was like a slow intravenous drip. As I was going through it, like, here's one thing, and you're reading through the plot, and oh, here's one more piece of background information. And I'm reading through, and then it was like, oh, and I know I'm going to die. And I'm like, what? No! Oh no! We're doing more murder mystery stuff? But what was that other thing? Okay. Okay.

Sara: 16:33

liked the pacing of this book. You get information in a way that feels really natural. but also you keep learning more, which I recognize that sounds like a really basic statement, right? Like, in theory, that's what all books do, but in practice, that's not what all books do. And Polk did a really, really good job of giving the reader what they need to know when

Lilly: 17:00

I think this was a very good time to interject that this book was in first person perspective,

Sara: 17:06

tropes.

Lilly: 17:07

which I historically Have an issue with because it is so easy to do wrong in my opinion wrong This book fucking nails it. Okay. First of all, it's leaning on the film noir thing So as a genre, I'm like, yes, you are narrating to me what's happening. I have that expectation Exactly, exactly. But also, at no point in this book did I feel like the narrator was withholding information from me just as a plot device to make the reader go, burp sound effect later on. You know what I mean?

Sara: 17:45

Yeah, the narration felt very natural and believable.

Lilly: 17:48

Like, I truly believe this is what someone's thoughts sound like. Sometimes, I am reading a first person story and there will be a description of the main character or someone they know and love. And I'm like, no one fucking thinks like that. No. But this book, even though there are times. When the narrator knows things that we don't. It still feels like it's a running consciousness. A genuine consciousness. I honestly think that Helen was thinking, again, to use the one thing that's not going to be a spoiler. Oh no, I'm really going to miss Edith, her girlfriend. And like, that's such a perfect way of making the reader go, What the fuck? But also doesn't feel like the author going, Heh heh, you don't know anymore because I'm not gonna tell you. Which is usually how first

Sara: 18:45

Yeah, the first person narration fits very well with the story, both with, I think, the genre and with the characters, and it's done very well. I don't have the same first person issues that you do, but I agree that this is an excellent use of it.

Lilly: 19:00

I feel like I just have a very high threshold for first person narration.

Sara: 19:06

I'm pretty sure that you're pickier about a lot of things.

Lilly: 19:09

Yeah. But like, when it comes to first person point of view, it's not that I hate it, it's that I just have a very, I don't know if you'd say high or low threshold. Low threshold, maybe?

Sara: 19:20

You have a lot of criteria that it has to meet before you enjoy

Lilly: 19:24

Yes. Whereas with third person, I can overlook a lot of bullshit. Therefore, it's very hard to do first person well, in my opinion. And this book fucking nails it. Again, a lot of that is probably because of the genre. Playing into that film noir genre trope, I'm sort of primed to expect that internal narrative format. But Polk plays into it. They do it perfectly.

Sara: 19:47

Yeah, I don't have any comments there because I agree with you.

Lilly: 19:51

Our next bullet point is about the amazing romance, but we kind of already talked about it. Did we already talk about it? We talked about the foreshadowing.

Sara: 19:59

We did kind of already talk about it, and we're gonna talk about it at length in the spoiler section. Before recording, we had a long argument about how much of it deserved to be in the spoiler section and how much of it deserved to be in the not spoiler section.

Lilly: 20:12

The tense environment of Helen saying, I'm going to die in three days and I know that, versus, like, her beautiful long term relationship with Edith creates an amazing tragic tension that I'm so here for. And that's from page one. That's not a spoiler.

Sara: 20:29

That is not a spoiler. We determined that you could say

Lilly: 20:33

That's exactly as much as I can say. And honestly, no one should go to the spoiler section. Just go read this book. It took, like, an hour, tops.

Sara: 20:41

Yeah, I mean, it's like a hundred pages. I don't know how many words, but it's a novella, so it's probably under 40, 000, because I think that's the novella limit, right?

Lilly: 20:50

Yeah, but it's so good.

Sara: 20:52

Yeah. So, quick read, excellent story. Don't listen to us talk about spoilers if you haven't read the book, because you should just go out and read it, and then come back and listen to our talk.

Lilly: 21:02

part of what makes it so good is the pacing of the information, so if you listen to us talk about the spoilers, it's not going to ruin it, but you won't be able to appreciate the whole thing. I honestly, like, this is a book that I'm so glad I didn't have spoilers for. Sometimes it doesn't matter, I'd say in this point it does.

Sara: 21:18

Yeah, I agree. I think you absolutely can enjoy this book if you know what's coming, but part of the joy of it is learning and solving the mystery with Helen.

Lilly: 21:27

On the topic of it being a novella, there is no wasted space. This is a tight narrative. It's a cliché, but every sentence does two jobs, so to speak. Which is another thing that I really admired about it and really enjoyed about this book. Well then, Sarah, before we move on to our spoiler conversation, who should read this book? I

Sara: 21:50

You should read this book if you want a queer noir Dresden Files, but better. I have another comp for it, but I think that's a spoiler, so we'll talk about that in the spoiler section. But basically everyone should read this book.

Lilly: 22:03

really loved this. I really loved this book.

Sara: 22:18

Okay, so now that we're in the spoiler section, my other comp is Supernatural, because this book has angels and demons in it, and Supernatural has angels and demons in it, and that's kind of the extent of my comp, actually.

Lilly: 22:31

I thought you had more to go with than that.

Sara: 22:34

I don't really. Marlowe did kind of remind me of Crowley.

Lilly: 22:38

Marlo is Helen, the main character's patron, who about halfway through the book we find out is a demon who owns the contract to Helen's soul.

Sara: 22:48

I don't actually really have much more to go on, it just, it gave me Supernatural vibes, but better.

Lilly: 22:55

Is that just because of all the possession? There's a lot of possession.

Sara: 22:58

Well, it's, it's partly that, it's partly the, you know, character selling their soul to a demon for their sibling, because that's very similar.

Lilly: 23:08

And Teddy is a little bitch, just like Dean.

Sara: 23:13

It's very similar.

Lilly: 23:14

It has nothing to do with sup Hey listeners, it has nothing to do with Supernatural.

Sara: 23:19

No, I mean it, like, plot, plot wise, no. Plot wise, they're, they're not very similar.

Lilly: 23:24

Quality wise, I said it. I said it.

Sara: 23:28

I would, I would agree, I mean, I have a deep fondness for Supernatural in the way that one loves really bad things. And this is quite good, so yes, this is much better than Supernatural. That's why I said, Supernatural but better.

Lilly: 23:44

I just needed to make that crystal clear.

Sara: 23:47

Oh yeah, I mean, I do think that this is the superior version. No questions about it.

Lilly: 23:53

Well, I have only seen one season of Supernatural, and it had no angels or demons. So I'm not the right person to ask.

Sara: 24:01

You stopped watching it before it got into any of the religious stuff.

Lilly: 24:05

God, I am usually so not a Christian mythology person, which makes me very, very glad I had read Forging a Nightmare by Patricia Jackson. Deals a lot with angels, and actually takes the time to explain, or at least, Explore and delve into a lot of mythology that I have absolutely no background in. And honestly, that was like my strongest source material for this novel, or this novella.

Sara: 24:36

Yeah, I mean, I would say that mine was supernatural.

Lilly: 24:40

Rough.

Sara: 24:42

Which does, in its defense, does go into a lot of the same concepts as an exploration of Christian mythology.

Lilly: 24:49

Fair enough. I guess this book could stand on its own. I would like to say that. I don't think you need a background. Well, clearly neither of us have a background of Christian mythology.

Sara: 25:02

I don't think that you need to have read the Bible on a regular basis to understand what's going on in this book or anything. No.

Lilly: 25:09

book explains enough of the the background and the dynamics that you can get it, but it was It almost felt like that feeling you get when you see a fun reference to something, and you're like, Oh, I get that reference! This book was referring to a dominant religion that has a basis of thousands of years in our culture. And I'm like, Oh, I read that last year! So that's probably the same experience, right?

Sara: 25:41

Just about.

Lilly: 25:42

Yeah. And you were like, I saw that TV show.

Sara: 25:45

I was like, a name that ends in I E L. I know what that's about because I've watched Supernatural.

Lilly: 25:51

I did love that. I know the name ends in I E L, I know it's an angel. It was phenomenal. There's probably someone out there who reads this novel and goes, Oh, I recognize that from the Bible. It's not us.

Sara: 26:12

No. It is not us.

Lilly: 26:14

So, you're telling me the only similarity Is that just there are angels and demons who possess people? That's it? That's all we get?

Sara: 26:23

Well, um, not exactly has been a good like six or seven years since I've watched any supernatural I never watched the final season, or I never got around to watching the final season. I might've watched the first episode of it, but it was, it was more angels and demons in conflict. A demon that deals in deals and souls like Crowley.

Lilly: 26:48

And Marlo.

Sara: 26:49

And Marlo, yeah. Angels possessing people. You know, the main character making a deal for their brother. General vibes.

Lilly: 26:58

That's, well, that's where I draw the line. I would argue that the vibes of this book were much better than Supernatural.

Sara: 27:06

mythological vibes.

Lilly: 27:07

Vague plot points.

Sara: 27:08

Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that Supernatural is better. I don't think it is.

Lilly: 27:13

Oh, no, no. I was curious where the similarities were. That's all.

Sara: 27:16

Yeah, I think vague plot points. They both use Christian mythology.

Lilly: 27:21

must acknowledge Enochian at some point.

Sara: 27:24

Oh yeah.

Lilly: 27:25

the language of angels. Yeah.

Sara: 27:27

is a big thing.

Lilly: 27:28

Is it Enochian?

Sara: 27:29

that's how they pronounce it.

Lilly: 27:30

But gnocchi is a pasta. Is it the language of pasta?

Sara: 27:34

It's not Enochian.

Lilly: 27:39

for forever now. Ha

Sara: 27:41

I said Enochian, but you can pronounce it however you want.

Lilly: 27:45

Well, apparently it's the language of pasta and as we know pasta is the most angelic food.

Sara: 27:49

Certainly up there.

Lilly: 27:51

Okay, this book fucking shot me through the heart and had no remorse.

Sara: 27:56

In what specific way did it do that?

Lilly: 27:59

Oh, well, for starters, Teddy, the little brother Helen sacrificed her soul for, and we get a little bit of a Buffy vibe. I know Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm sure, is not the only one who's done this, but they're the only one I care about. The idea of bringing someone back from the dead and them saying like, I was in heaven, you asshole.

Sara: 28:23

I'm pretty sure that Supernatural does something like that too, actually.

Lilly: 28:26

Excuse, Buffy was first.

Sara: 28:28

Buffy was first. I'm not arguing

Lilly: 28:31

And I specified, the only one I care about. Which stands. So, Teddy is first introduced, so angry at Helen. You know, Helen got excommunicated from her magical school because she sold her soul and that makes her a bad guy.

Sara: 28:52

We don't even know that initially. We just know that Teddy's angry at her because she's a warlock. And then it comes out that she was excommunicated. And then it comes out that she sold her soul. And then it comes out that she sold her soul to save him.

Lilly: 29:05

This is why Daniel was not impressed with this book. When you, when I reduce it down to three soundbites, it's not that interesting. Like, if anyone is still listening who has not read the book, honestly, please stop.

Sara: 29:20

Ha ha.

Lilly: 29:22

good, and you really deserve. Like, I usually don't care about spoilers. I think we do a spoiler section because I enjoy the concept. But like, personally, I don't give a shit. But this book, it actually matters. Anyway, so that is to say, yeah, eventually you find out all of those things and they're paced out much better and it's in between hijinks and a beautiful lesbian relationship. And I don't even remember where I was going with this. Teddy starts out super mad. You find out that he's not actually that mad. It was just a show for his co worker. Which, oh my god, that also sucks. And then at the very end, he kills an angel to save Helen's life, which is, like, the only other thing you can do to get excommunicated from their magic school. And later she's like, what the hell? Why did you do that? And he was like, I understand. When I could save you, of course I will do anything it takes to save you. Which is exactly what she had been saying about him all along. Of course I'll do anything it takes to save you. I, I spent the last, like, third of this novel in tears. And that's, like, most of it.

Sara: 30:31

That was a really satisfying moment because, like, as the reader, you've been sympathizing with Helen this entire time because you can feel how viscerally she cares for Teddy and he is like, you shouldn't have done that, I was happy in heaven, now look what you've done, you've, you've ruined everything for everyone. Not quite that mean, but like basically that

Lilly: 30:54

Basically, you get what you deserve, though. Everyone is right to be mean to you now. And then you get, like, a couple moments where he's like, Hey, I'm being this mean as a show for my co worker, but also you did done fucked up.

Sara: 31:09

and so it's very satisfying to see him come to that same kind of realization that yes, his family means that much to him, that he would be willing to sacrifice everything.

Lilly: 31:21

Basically, like, he had, why is not unconditional love? Close to it. He didn't really understand the unconditional part. He was like, how dare you unconditionally love me? Oh shit, wait, I unconditionally love you too. And that was so sweet and so beautiful. And then it's kind of implied that they're a supernatural crime busting duo after the novella ends.

Sara: 31:49

For a little while anyway.

Lilly: 31:51

yes.

Sara: 31:52

The one thing that I do wish that we had gotten maybe just a page or two more Was Teddy's partner, who's also an angel, trying to get back to heaven, doing bad stuff. Because I feel like, it doesn't come out of the blue. Like, there are clues, but there's not a lot of depth to that particular character. And I would've liked one or two more things to it. But that's a very, very minor nitpick, in the scheme of things.

Lilly: 32:22

I agree, the only thing we get of that character is in the um, basically, The grand finale, and that sort of revealed so close with so much other stuff that definitely anything we do get gets lost, and I'm sure a lot of it got trimmed.

Sara: 32:40

Yeah, we get hints because there's this weird eye thing going on in his pictures that we find out is because he's an angel. And so, like, that is, that is implied earlier on, or foreshadowed earlier on. But so much of that revelation is related to the finale that it all just kind of clumps together and doesn't necessarily get as much individual time as I think would have been nice. But, again, very minor nitpick.

Lilly: 33:11

mean, I think it really could have been rectified with just like, one or two good sentences. He didn't need his own chapter or anything.

Sara: 33:18

I agree. I mean, maybe I wouldn't have minded a chapter because some of the chapters were just like a page and a half.

Lilly: 33:23

okay.

Sara: 33:24

uh,

Lilly: 33:24

don't think it even needed that, though. Just, like, a couple of sentences devoted to him. Like, this novella was so tight. Like, there was no wasted space.

Sara: 33:34

I agree that we didn't need, like, more than a page and a half.

Lilly: 33:38

I even don't think it was that much. I just think,

Sara: 33:40

I mean, at most, right? Like, I'm saying that we definitely didn't need, like, pages upon pages about this one character. I just wanted a little more.

Lilly: 33:49

I guess everything was paced out so well. There was a little bit of an avalanche at the end. That felt a little bit fast. Only in that his details got lost.

Sara: 34:00

It wasn't even that so much as just, I wanted more character motivation. At least a sentence or two. Maybe as much as a page and a half, but no more. Just a little more character motivation for why he's doing what he's doing. Who he is, you know.

Lilly: 34:19

Well, we kind of got that, because we know that the fallen angels are trying to get back into heaven, and they think the only way to do it is to summon the archangel Michael, and the only way to do that is to murder a bunch of people.

Sara: 34:32

But that's so wrapped up in the angel who is specifically doing the murders rather than his accomplices that I, I don't know, I just, I just wanted just a little, just a smidge more.

Lilly: 34:45

We just needed a sentence showing that it wasn't just one angel doing it. The fact that there was more than one angel is kind of like, Oh my god, the whole system is corrupted.

Sara: 34:56

Yeah, I guess that's true. If we, if we had thought at an earlier point that the one angel had accomplices, and then we find out that one of those accomplices is Teddy's partner, I think you're right that that would have solved my issue.

Lilly: 35:09

Or just like, kind of acknowledging that at the time. Like, we thought he was working alone, but it turns out he wasn't. Or, I'm sorry, they weren't. Angels are gender neutral, although sometimes they take the pronouns of the host that they've possessed.

Sara: 35:22

Inhabited.

Lilly: 35:23

yeah. I think that kind of brings us to what makes me happiest about this novella.

Sara: 35:29

What makes you happiest?

Lilly: 35:31

The angels were the bad guys!

Sara: 35:33

Also a similarity to Supernatural, where at least in the earlier seasons, angels are dicks.

Lilly: 35:39

Dicks are different from bad guys.

Sara: 35:40

Nah, angels are bad guys.

Lilly: 35:42

Okay, that's different, though.

Sara: 35:44

They specifically call them dicks, but, but yes, angels are

Lilly: 35:46

Okay. In that, like, because this is playing with Christian mythology in a way that kind of turns it on its head a little bit, the demon Marlow, Helen's patron, shows up and kind of saves them at the end, with strings attached.

Sara: 36:04

Yeah, I'm not sure I would call Marlowe a good guy, but I certainly

Lilly: 36:07

I didn't.

Sara: 36:08

know, I know. I'm not saying you did. This is not a statement accusing you of anything. I'm not sure I would call Marlowe a good guy, but they're certainly not the villain of the piece. and the angels definitely are. So I would agree with you that the angels are very clearly the bad guys here.

Lilly: 36:26

Being able to call up the demon to save their asses as a savior. The demon was the savior. I mean, if we don't want to use a bunch of coded language. Ha ha ha ha ha. She shows up. And, I mean, there are still problems and there are still strings attached, obviously. She's a demon. She's not a good guy.

Sara: 36:47

Which is why I'm not saying she's a good guy. You're not saying she's a good guy. But you're, you're right. She is a figure on their side, in a sense, in this story.

Lilly: 36:57

It's that moment where you think all is lost. Our heroes are up against angels who are too powerful for them. They're just stalling before they die. And Helen summons Marlowe and you're like, fuck yeah. Fuckin get him! And that's just so delightful. The slow, I guess that part wasn't slow, but the twist that all of these horrific murders have not been committed by a demon possessing humans, they have been committed by an angel possessing humans, was a very good twist.

Sara: 37:40

I should specify, we do think in the beginning that it is a demon possessing humans, like, that's given in the text that they think that.

Lilly: 37:47

Yeah, I mean, they're murdering people. Of course it's a demon. And that's why it's so good that they twist it. Because otherwise that's so boring. Ugh. Angels are so boring unless they're bad guys and they're super cool. I

Sara: 38:06

a nice twist. Unrelated to anything, I think the reason why I wasn't surprised that Marlowe was a demon was because Marlowe was named Marlowe.

Lilly: 38:14

mean, that's fair. You also obviously know something's going on with Marlo. I mean

Sara: 38:20

Obviously you know that, you know that too. But when you figure out that angels and demons are involved, you're like, oh, obviously Marlowe's a demon because they're named Marlowe.

Lilly: 38:29

I would argue she is named Marlo. I think she's she in the whole book.

Sara: 38:34

Actually, I think you're right. I think she is, she is she.

Lilly: 38:37

I mean, demons don't have a gender, but it's, it's kind of like, sometimes entities can like, flit in and out of bodies, but sometimes they like, join with a body long term, and they kind of like, share identity. Although, with angels, sometimes it's more symbiotic. And there's kind of a conversation in the book, like, does the woman that Marlowe is living in even know what's happening? It's interesting. It does not let Marlowe off the hook, I'll say that.

Sara: 39:06

No, it absolutely does

Lilly: 39:08

Like, the plot definitely considers that. This is such a short novella, and it still considers that kind of shit. It was just a throwaway line, but that's all I need. Just acknowledge it, you know?

Sara: 39:19

It's a really good, it's a really good story.

Lilly: 39:22

I loved this so

Sara: 39:23

It's so good.

Lilly: 39:26

Okay, what I really need to know is, did this book have a happy ending?

Sara: 39:31

No, I don't think it had a happy ending. I will give you bittersweet. I will, I will give you

Lilly: 39:37

That, I know that wasn't a fart, but that pug noise was so well timed.

Sara: 39:45

Mr. Squeak feels very emphatically, too, that it was not a happy ending,

Lilly: 40:00

That, dear listeners, is a snoring pug. And what I usually cut out of an episode, but I don't think I will this time.

Sara: 40:09

and now she's calmed down.

Lilly: 40:10

Good.

Sara: 40:13

No, I don't think it was a happy ending. I think it was a bittersweet ending. Happy only in the sense that Helen ends up with another ten years. But, she has her soul back momentarily, and then she sells it again to bring Edith back. Because Edith, in this confrontation with the angel, Edith has died. And so, Helen sells her soul again, because Edith is the great love of her life, and as we've already established, she will basically do anything for the people she loves. And I think it is a very temporary happiness because we know how it's going to end, even though we knew the end. It is bittersweet, and that bittersweetness tinges everything, so I would not say that it's a happy ending.

Lilly: 40:56

I feel the exact opposite. I went into this book, even though I knew the end, from the very first page it introduces that Helen is going to die, I was like, this book is preparing me for a big fuck you. It's going to dangle the possibility that Helen might be saved and then yank it away and kill her at the end, and it's gonna say, well, you knew it was gonna happen, so it's your fault for being sad about

Sara: 41:24

But it, it does that. The fact that she gets another 10 years is not as bad of an ending, but it does that. She's gonna die.

Lilly: 41:33

that's so much better. This book starts with her thinking she has 72 hours left with Edith. And it ends with her having 10 years. That's such a better thing.

Sara: 41:45

better. It's better. I'm not disagreeing that it's not better, but I wouldn't call that happy because we still know we go into it knowing she's gonna die and we end it knowing she's gonna die within a set time frame.

Lilly: 41:57

She, there is not a word for how many times she increased her relationship with Edith. Like, the time span that she gets now. Dodeca couples?

Sara: 42:09

Just because it's happier doesn't make it a happy ending.

Lilly: 42:13

I disagree, actually. I think she has so much improved her situation from the outset. It starts so bad. Just because we're used to stories that say, well, if it starts bad, then it's going to end happy. Like, that doesn't make this a sad ending.

Sara: 42:30

If you look in the very short term, I agree, but if you look in the longer term, no, I don't think it's, I think it's bittersweet.

Lilly: 42:37

If you look in the long term, she has so much more time than she would have had.

Sara: 42:41

Right, but it's still bittersweet because she is still going to die.

Lilly: 42:45

we're all going to die, Sarah.

Sara: 42:46

Yes, but we're not necessarily all going to die within a time span and then go to hell and never see our loved ones again.

Lilly: 42:53

Well, she's gonna have Teddy. Teddy's going to hell now, too. So, all in all, her situation has vastly improved.

Sara: 43:01

That's true. Her situation has improved. I'm not arguing that.

Lilly: 43:06

I think that makes it a happy ending.

Sara: 43:07

Bittersweet.

Lilly: 43:08

Well, I'll say this, it was much happier than I was anticipating. I got to the end and I was like, holy shit, really? I was so ready. So, I think part of it is because it is a novella format. I expect novellas, or I accept that novellas have more space for experimentation. Because if you invest 500 pages into a novel, it better fucking leave you feeling good. Otherwise, why did you spend that much time reading the novel, right?

Sara: 43:42

don't necessarily agree, but for the purposes of your argument, sure.

Lilly: 43:46

I mean, that's not always the case, but I would say for mainstream media. Whereas with novellas or short stories, there's more room for experimentation because even if they do something weird as hell, you've only invested a small amount of time in it. You're not going to be Angry about it, necessarily. I would never be angry about experimentation. You get, like, we're talking about the general you reader. And so I definitely went into this expecting that this story would go, Helen's fate is exactly what I told you it would be. Why would you think it would be anything different even though you knew the end? You big ol dummy. Ha ha. Fuck you.

Sara: 44:26

Interesting, see, I think that my perspective, and maybe this has to do with why I find it a bittersweet and not a happy ending, is because I definitely went into it thinking stories normally have, not normally, stories often have happy endings, even though the title implies otherwise. I still kind of expect there's going to be a happy ending, and we get that teaser throughout the story that Helen can get her soul back if she solves this mystery, and in fact, she does get her soul back. It's just she then immediately spends it, right? So, I was maybe expecting a happier ending than we got, and thus I view it as bittersweet, where you were not expecting a happy ending at all, and thus you view the ending we got as happy.

Lilly: 45:20

Yeah, I think it's like, the whole novella, the vibes are so dark. They're struggling through their relationship, not because of each other, just because of society. I just wanted to state that for the 5, 000th time. But that's important. Like, that's a different vibe.

Sara: 45:36

It is important.

Lilly: 45:38

the story is dark, there are gruesome murders, it's literally based on film noir. The title is, Even Though I Knew the End. I was so ready for this book to say, you knew the end, what the fuck were you expecting? Like, I thought it was a punchline set up from the beginning, and to have that. Yanked away felt really good.

Sara: 46:03

Except that it's not yanked away because it's the, it's the same ending! She starts in the same position as she ends, even though she has another 10 years.

Lilly: 46:14

I'm sorry. She starts with three days with her girlfriend and ends with 10 years. That's not the same thing at all.

Sara: 46:21

It's the same position, her soul is sold, and she has a finite period of time.

Lilly: 46:27

Maybe I'm a glass half full kind of girl, but I'm gonna call that a happy ending. I was crying. Happy tears.

Sara: 46:35

Bittersweet. I didn't actually cry during this book, but, uh, bittersweet.

Lilly: 46:39

Really?

Sara: 46:40

Yeah, I didn't cry during this book.

Lilly: 46:41

Oh, I was in such a mood. Oh, this is almost certainly because I was just having a fucking day.

Sara: 46:52

It was a good book, though. Even though we can't agree on whether or not the ending was happy, we can agree that it was an excellent book. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly: 47:08

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and BlueSky at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara: 47:19

Probably more on blue sky than we are on Twitter, actually. Although we are still on Twitter for the meantime.

Lilly: 47:26

You tell me, girl. I'm not following any of that shit.

Sara: 47:28

Who knows how long that will last, but if you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly: 47:39

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us, find our show notes, and some other nonsense.

Sara: 47:45

Including nonsense from the beginning of this episode that got cut, where Lily makes a lot of weird mouth noises, so you know you're missing out and you want and you definitely want to give us money to hear that. Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly: 48:07

Bye!